As some of you know I'm trying to get a nitration cycle going in a large tank. I have been adding ammonia periodically keeping NH3 around 3 mg/l anxiously waiting for some kind of nitrite reading to show the nitrosomonas bacteria are cranking up. After a couple of weeks no nitrite reading yet. But it's early especially in 65 degree water.

Anyway, I was told in the publication I am using, the household ammonia I am adding should not have any "detergents." The one I have been adding however has a "surfactant" added. At the time I purchased the ammonia from the local grocery story I assumed a surfactant is not a detergent as I use a surfactant in my fish hauling water to prevent foamng. Unfortunately it looks like they may be one and the same, as I noticed in one of my catalogs, a test device for detergents in water has (surfactants) in parentheses.

Did I screw up? Do I need to drain and start over? Can I find ammonia somewhere that has nothing added to it?

I know I can email the author of the publication Small Scale Aquaculture but I'm been asking enough question as it is. I don't want to wear out my welcome.

Years ago I was told, when I was spraying my fruit trees with insect killer, that "cheap pink dish washing detergent" was as good as any surfactant. That is what I used for years both of trees and plants, but also when I sprayed duckweed, etc. in the pond. Only when I hooked up with PB did I start using the aquatic surfactant Cidekick. Even it smells like the strong detergent used in industrial cleaning situations.

Cecil, I am not educated enough to know about your situation, but I'll bet anything you buy with a surfactant in the grocery store will contain detergent.

Bing

Cecil, maybe you should add a few BG at a time and let the system work , and monitor the water quality frequently to see if it stays within acceptable levels.
Just my 2 cent novice opinion.

Bing is correct: detergent = surfactant

Cecil:

I'm of the same school of thought, throw some fish in there to get the process going. To save some BG, I'd toss a bunch of FHM in there, it sounds like they are really easy (and cheap) for you to get.

The only thing that I'm unsure of is on whether you should drain, hose off, drain again and refill the RAS. I don't know how long the surficant will take to break down that's in the system now.

If you did drain it, would it be better to refill it from the front pond rather than using well water? I know it would be more difficult to do that, but it might help jump start the system.

Scot,

I've been told by the author that starting the cycle with a few fish takes longer than adding ammonia, and it's taking long enough as it is!

As far as using pond water I'm dead set against that. I just don't want to take the risk of adding parasites or disease.

I'm not sure how easy fatheads are to collect right now with the ice cover. And fatheads are notorious for transporting parasites and pathogens.

I've had two fish producers tell me to pee in the tank periodically until the tank gets cycled! I'm considering that.

detergent can = surfactant . But surfactants can also be non-detergents . I think that most commercial surfactants are not detergents but not positive of that.

10 Pond Bosser's and a keg of beer should get it going

Seriously, you should stock a few fish to get it working. Artificially started systems will have a whole new set of problems once you stock your fish.

It really is best to "build up" your system with what will be calling it home for a while.

You're absolutely correct, Eric. A detergent is a surfactant but a surfactant is not necessarily a detergent.

Here's the sign Cecil is posting next to his fish tank.

There are differences in surfactants & they are not just used to reduce surface tension & aid in retention. Relative to the cost of most herbicides surfactants are cheap & using the correct one for the job at hand can greatly increase the effectiveness of the herbicide which ends up saving money on repeat applications.

Ha Ha Ha!

I posted this on another site without my name:

Cecil your mission if you choose to accept it (Mission Impossible theme song in the background) is to completely drain the tank and clarifier, refill, and pee into it. This tape will self destruct in 60 seconds.

I almost peed my pants when I saw that

Cecil:

I know you are probably gunshy about nasties in the water after the trout debacle. If there are BG in the front pond in cages that don't show any signs of problems, what makes you suspect there will be problems if you use water from that pond (and FHM)?

I've had FHM right on the edge of the pond where the water meets the soil with ice starting about 10" or so from shore.

If you were to use pond water from the front pond (or from another pond), how many weeks would you gain in getting the RAS up and running? On the flip side, the RAS would be easier and cheaper to treat. How will you ensure that you don't transfer any nasties to the RAS when you transfer the BG? If water from the front pond is the concern, what about water from where the BG are in the cage?

Heck, I figure I can learn from someone else's mistakes!

Always glad to be your entertainment.

Hey if you guys hear about a guy they found floating in his fish tank with his zipper down...

"10 Pond Bosser's and a keg of beer should get it going"

Or, Sunil during a PB conference.

seriously, how about N2 fertilizer made from urea?

Scot,

First of all if the bluegills in the cage survive they are in a cage in the trout pond. I didn't put them in the front pond even though the water quality is better as some were small enough to potentially go through the 1/8th inch mesh. I didn't want to take a chance having any escape in the big pond as its for male bluegills only.

The bacteria is dead right now in the pond water due to the low temps according to the literature I've read and nitrosomonas and nitrobactor bacteria don't form spores. So no advantage there. Most likely it's hibernating in the pond mud.

As far as preventing the bluegills from adding anything before they are added to the tank I have a plan for that. I will acclimate them in a 55 gallon drum with a 0.5 solution of salt. When the water temp reaches the same temp as the tank I will dip them into another drum with a 3 percent solution of salt which will rupture any parasites. Most likely the fish won't be susceptable to the Aeromonas salmonicida the trout were, as it's not something that really effects bluegills.

I was told by a PHD I need to go on a high protein diet. Seriously!

Ya see, I'm learning already!

You can't learn from me until I make all the mistakes and learn from them myself. There are more to come. Stay tuned!

Cecil, Your nitrosomas will be along shortly. No need to worry or overthink the RAS.

I also think your literature is wrong about the bacteria being dead, otherwise every well stocked pond would have a fish kill when it got cold.

Unless you have changed your water, there is no need to add more ammonia. Your nitrosomas cannot establish till the ammonia is broken down into nitrites
to supply the food source. Once your ammonia begins to go below 1ppm your good to add several fish. It takes about 4 weeks for the bacteria to grow in sufficiant colonies to control the ammonia, but less than 2 weeks for the nitrosomas to control nitrites.

CB,

Not being familiar with your project nor an aquaculture specialist this may sound like a silly question but, what is the goal of getting the nitrogen cycle going in the tank? Is this for assymilating fish waste?

Rainman was right on with the bacteria, Nitrosomonas can live in temps as low as 49 F but are most active in 70-85 F. They may be a bit slower in 65F water but certainly not dead.

If you are not using pond water in the tank, then what is your water source, a well? Tap water has residual chlorine in it which bacteria are VERY sensitive to. If you are using tap water, you need to aerate it for 24 hours before use. Also, I'm assuming your aerating your tank as well right? Did you seed your tank with bacteria? Do you have a carbon source? Once you convert from ammonia to nitrate, then what?...water changes, or denitrification?

WW:

Here's the tank he's talking about:
BG RAS

Wow! That thing is awesome! Sorry for all the irrelevent and redundant info, I hadn't heard of this RAS before. In fact, my first question should have been "what the heck is a RAS?" It sounds like the goal is to produce or grow more fish in a smaller area...like in a basement. Cool!

Dead in the water column not the pond. I don't know about a fish kill in temps in the 30's. When the water gets that cold unionized ammonia is low and oxygen is high. Other than PH, unionized ammonia is dependent on temperature right? Furthermore I wasn't aware bacteria was very active at lower temps anyway.

Cecil, got to the local pet store and buy a bottle of API (aquarium pharmaceuticals inc.) brand "StressZyme" it has some excellent live, non-sulpher fixing bacteria that will have you adding fish in no time.

Cecil, you had the camera at the wrong angle!

Shhhhh!

I'm sure the photo will be short lived as it is.

Just to be honest that was staged. No tinkling going on. Even though I've had three fish farmers tell me that is how they get the two bacteria species going I can't get myself to do it yet.

You're just saying that to try and slip it past the Moderators!

Any success yet or still playing the waiting game?

The trout are still gobbling up the pellets, feeding 1x day now.

Yeah, right You saw that water and it was all over have to come up with an appropriate nick name, but nothing rhymes with Cecil, so you are off the hook.

Just pee in it and get it over with. hehe

Just make sure Theo don't pee in your tank, you would have to look up what he peed!

I'm on cholesteral meds. Are low cholesterol bacteria O.K.?

Hmmm, I can only imagine the conversation between you and your wife if she caught you "adding bacteria" to your RAS.

I'd think you'd be fine as long as you don't try to add structure.

OH NO, I can't believe I wrote that.

I can.

She took the staged picture actually. She's very open minded. She has to be being stuck with me.

I have done the dirty deed. We shall see if it does the job. If the fish grow exceptionally fast I'm marketing the water. Ken Holyoke ain't got nothin' on me.

I am going to be checking the labels at grocery store really close the next time I buy fish.

If it says "Product of Indiana", I just may pass

So did you add bacteria or structure or both?

Wise idea.

Something else to consider:
When we go deep-sea fishing, we often try "chumming". I'm usually the "chummer"...

Disclaimer: This product has been found to cause cancer in the state of California.

And don't forget out oceans have become the garbage dumps and cesspools of the world.

I checked ammonia today after "fertilization" yesterday only 0.46 mg/l. The ammonia should be in the 2 to 3 mg/l range to get the nitrosomonas going. Am I supposed to keep peeing into my tank?

Cecil, I think it's time to sacrifice a few fish to preserve your sanity.

I'm still saying get some ag fertilizer with N2 source of synthetic urea and throw some in there.

At this rate it'll be up and running just about ice-out time! I don't think I could be this patient - I'd have filled it from the pond already.

Cecil, I know there's gotta be some duck farmers in the area, would that by-product give it a jump start? A year ago I had some urea, but it was put in the garden last Spring.

Cecil, the ammonia dropping means nitrites are forming for you nitrosomas. Let nature take her course. You're ready to add some fish!

Cecil:

Just curious, what's your evaporation rate?

Not really Rex. Ammonia will drop due to aeration and evaporation. I'm not reading any nitrites so there can't be any nitrosomonas yet.

I'm guessing about 5 gallons a week.