Pond Boss
Posted By: david u Rifle question - 08/09/09 01:08 AM
I have a Ruger 22cal and a Rem 22-250, but would like something in between for 70-100 yard shots. There are houses nearby and the 22-250 is too loud. I have some varmits, some of which have plummage, that I can't get closer than 80 yards to. I'm looking at a .17 cal or .22 Hornet. Does anyone here know which is quieter. I won't be shooting it a lot, so ammo costs don't matter. I also don't reload, so a good factory load would be important..du
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 01:19 AM
.17 MACH 2 is quiet and will do the job at 70-100 yards. I think it would be better than the .22 Hornet IMHO.

Also, take a look at the Ruger .204. It's just a tough louder than the .17 MACH 2 but will touch up VERY accurately out to 250 or so. I love it for coyotes and foxes since the hole it leaves is so small keeping the value of the pelt up.

Any of the above have quality factory loads...
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 01:40 AM
After shooting a .17 HMR, I think I'd go that route. I have a Mach II (Kimber) and while it's accurate, it isn't on the accuracy level of the HMR, and the HMR can reach out a wee bit farther, and has (or seems to have) less wind drift than the Mach II at 100 Yds.

The .22 Hornet has one advantage, it's reloadable if you reload, therefore, if you reload, it can be loaded for different power levels.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 03:26 AM
From my .22 Mag days, it's perfect on Groundhogs out to about 100 yards.
Posted By: JoeG Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 11:44 AM
The .22 mag doesn't boast the accuracy of the newer .17 cals but from my shooting of both calibers at groundhogs the .22 mag is better medicine for them as it delivers more "thump" (big ballisticalatious word I don't expect experts here to understand) when you hit them in the body, should you not be a head shooting sniper type like many claim to be. My main focus it to kill the animal so I aim center mass mostly shooting off hand, the .22 mag out performs the .17 in that respect and is cheaper to shoot. I shoot CCI Maxi-Mag +V rounds in mine and it is an amazing gun.

My heavier varmint rifle is the venerable .222 Remington, to me they never built a sweeter caliber for the handloading woodchuck hunter.
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 04:27 PM
 Originally Posted By: esshup
After shooting a .17 HMR, I think I'd go that route.


+ 1
Posted By: jsand13 Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 09:57 PM
You can't beat the .17 hmr its one of my favorite guns.
Posted By: heybud Re: Rifle question - 08/09/09 11:55 PM
I have been shooting 22 stingers in my 10/22. Is this the hottest load made for a 22?
Posted By: gallop Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 12:02 AM
Depending on how close the neighbors are, and how much the noise bothers them you could always get a rifle with a suppressor (integral or screw on). I have a bolt action 22lr savage with a threaded barrel and suppressor. When I shoot subsonic rounds it is quieter than my pellet gun. Really, we measured the sound levels. It is also very accurate, and plenty deadly enough on small game. Besides, suppressors are fun, get one while you still legally can.
Posted By: RobA Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 12:35 AM
Supressors are legal? Isn't that like a 'silencer'?
Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 12:58 AM
Yes if you're willing to jump through the hoops to own one they're legal. But be aware you'll definetly be on the gov's radar.

I like the 17's. Flat, fast & Much less chance of a richocet.
Posted By: gallop Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 01:04 AM
In most states, yes. Silencer is a misnomer, you can't totally silence any round, but we are talking about the same thing. Suppressors are very legal in Florida, just like full auto machine guns. Yes, full auto. It requires some specialized paperwork, some waiting time, and a background check, but that is about it. Only slightly more complicated than getting a concealed weapons permit. I am unsure of the laws of Pennsylvania, but a quick check with your local gun shop should get you the info you need.

My apologies to the OP for hijacking your thread
Posted By: gallop Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 01:09 AM
Ooops. Ric beat me to it. As far as being on the government radar, I am already monitored by so many governemnt agencies with my current profession that it seems a moot point. Don't let that fact dissuade you from exercising your 2nd amendment rights.
Posted By: RobA Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 01:17 AM
 Originally Posted By: Ric Swaim
Yes if you're willing to jump through the hoops to own one they're legal. But be aware you'll definetly be on the gov's radar.


I don't want to be on anyone's radar. I use CB caps. Not very powerful but very quiet. Fits my minimal neeeds.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:17 AM
 Originally Posted By: heybud
I have been shooting 22 stingers in my 10/22. Is this the hottest load made for a 22?


Aguila .22 LR Super Maximum 30-gr. HP at 1750 fps is the hottest .22 LR round out there. I use it in my 10/22 a good bit. Cycles the gun great, doesn't jam and is accurate for a high speed round.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:20 AM
 Originally Posted By: JoeG
My heavier varmint rifle is the venerable .222 Remington, to me they never built a sweeter caliber for the handloading woodchuck hunter.


My grandfather gave me his .222. I reload for it and it is VERY accurate. Under 300 yards it really is a tack driver.
Posted By: davatsa Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:55 AM
david and others,

I don't think it would be quiet enough for the needs specified in this thread, but I have been very impressed with the .204. Light, accurate, and packs a serious punch.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 03:01 AM
 Originally Posted By: davatsa
I don't think it would be quiet enough for the needs specified in this thread, but I have been very impressed with the .204. Light, accurate, and packs a serious punch.


 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Also, take a look at the Ruger .204. It's just a touch louder than the .17 MACH 2 but will touch up VERY accurately out to 250 or so.


Good to see another liking the .204... It really is a great caliber.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 01:36 PM
CJ, I bought my Wife a Rem 222 about 20 years ago. Last year, she gave it to my 10 year old Grandson. He has taken 2 deer and one hog with it. We also reload for it but I haven't found much difference in any of the recipes.

If we are under 100 yards and have good shot placement, it is a great little gun. However, it doesn't provide a lot of shock. He shot a buck with it last year. A perfect heart shot at about 50 yards. The deer ran about 75 yards, turned around to look at what the noise was, and fell over dead. It never knew it had been hit.

The caliber has set a lot of records.
Posted By: bobad Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:02 PM
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
From my .22 Mag days, it's perfect on Groundhogs out to about 100 yards.


I second that.

Compared to other rounds with velocity of 2000fps and above, it's quieter, and has plenty of energy in the 40gr bullet. I've shot tough racoons at over 50 yards, and got nothing but humane kills.

I have an Anchutz bolt action in WMR. It easily shoots quarter-sized groups at 50 yards, and silver dollar sized at 100. (that's a hair over 1 MOA) So I think the round is inherently accurate. It may depend on ammunition brand, but probably not.
Posted By: bobad Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:07 PM
[quote=RobA]
I don't want to be on anyone's radar. I use CB caps. Not very powerful but very quiet. Fits my minimal neeeds.

I tried those, and can't consistently hit a coke can at 30 yards. Don't you need a certain barrel twist to shoot those accurately?
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 02:53 PM
Because the bullet is so short on the CB caps, you probably need a slower twist barrel than the standard 1:16 that's in the normal .22 rimfire. The .22 that I had built to shoot the 60 g Aguila SSS shells has a 1:9 twist and it'll group 2" @ 200 Yds on a calm day. To do that, I had to have a 20 moa scope base. I can get is zeroe'd @ 50 Yds, and there is just enough elevation in the scope to get it to 200 Yds.

I believe the muzzleloaders that shoot round balls have a 1:32 or 1:48 twist.

The .22 WMR is a good round and has been around for a LONG time. The .17 HMR uses the same case, just necked down to .17. For distances of 70 to 100 Yds, the .22 WMR will do what you want as well, admirably. If your range estimation is off, the .17 HMR shoots flatter. I haven't checked prices on the ammo to compare them, but either will be cheaper to buy ammo for than the Hornet. My Mach II seems to be louder than my .22LR, but then again, I'm shooting standard velocity ammo in the .22, not the hyper velocity stuff.
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 05:12 PM
The .22s are good, but to get one that will consistantly put 5 on a nickel, which is right at 13/16ths inch at one hundred yards you are gonna either have to get really lucky or spend a LOT of money. And it will almost certainly have to be a 22 mag.

The .17 HMR excells at inherent accuracy and flat trajectory.
And them lil' catridges look so dang cute to boot!
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 05:29 PM
The .222 is illegal for big game in VA and PA where I mostly hunt. I have only used it for ground hogs and predators and a few fall turkeys. I now mostly use the .204 for that purpose when I can steal it from my dad. I don't know if I got lucky but the .222 my grandfather gave me will shoot under 1" groups at 200 yards. It is definitely the most accurate stock rifle I have ever shot. Throw in the fact that it's probably fired a couple thousand rounds over it's 50 plus year life, it's pretty impressive!
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 06:09 PM
Well, you're an impressive guy.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 06:20 PM
Thanks Theo... Coming from you that means a lot!
Posted By: Yolk Sac Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 06:35 PM
I would definitely look up every alternative Webster's definition of "Well", "Your're", "An", "Impressive", and "Guy", including those from old english, before I accepted any compliment from Theo, even sarcastically.
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 06:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I don't know if I got lucky but the .222 my grandfather gave me will shoot under 1" groups at 200 yards.


Well you did indeed get lucky sir! That's one accurate rifle you have there.

However, when I said you will either have to get lucky or spend big $$$ I was refering to the rimfires, .22LR & WMR.

I have no delusions what so ever about the accuracy of the various .22 centerfires. I have had me some real shooters, but never a stock one that would do an inch at 200 yds. Yes sir, you did get lucky!! You should cherish that rifle and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER get rid of it. EVER!!!!!!!

Oh yeah....don't EVER loan it out either.
Posted By: jeffreythree Re: Rifle question - 08/10/09 06:48 PM
I had a Sako 75 Lefthand in .222 that grouped real well. Also have one in .25-06 as my day to day deer hunting rifle. Shot a Sako 85 the other day in .204 Ruger and a modified Sako Finnfire .22LR, and both were better than the .222. I wish I had known a few weeks ago. You could have tried a .22 Magnum I had and sold to see what it was like.
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 01:26 AM
Aguila .22 LR Super Maximum 30-gr. This is an interesting possibility. CJBS, will it shoot in the Ruger 10/22 without problems?? Sure would be cheaper, but have you looked at the ballistics at 80-100 yards? Do you think this 22LR round would be lethal to say, Geese or yotes at that distance?? I've done a lot of reading on about every gun website out there, and there are as many opinions as people as the merits of the 22cal Mag, the 17cal HMR, and the 22cal Hornet. The .222 and .204 are nice calibers, but again the noise factor is the issue(probably not going the suppressor route due to govt hoops)..du
Posted By: JoeG Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 01:41 AM
I haven't killed a deer with my .222 but I know a few people who have and I just read the current regs and can't see where it says the round is illegal in PA for deer either, the reg states lawful arms and ammunition to include "Manually operated centerfire rifles and handguns with all lead bullets or ball, or bullet designed to expand on impact". doesn't rule out even a 22 hornet from that, where did you ever hear it was illegal in PA CJ?? I know elk require .27 cal or better and muzzle loaders are .44 cal or larger??

I don't shoot many groups at 200 yards so I don't know what my rifle will do, but I have shot 33 rounds and killed 33 woodchucks in a one week period a few summers back. Just last week, Tuesday night in fact, I shot 9 chucks with eleven rounds in a 25 minute hunt, ranges vary from 10 to 200 yards, if you had a fishing lure that effective no one would want to fish with you, bank on that, and yes I hunt woodchucks alone.

I will maintain that the .22 cal is a better chuck round than the .17 for my style of "thumpin".
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 02:05 AM
Do any of you all have a 22 Hornet? It' a centerfire cartridge, it's been around for ever and there are only 3 manufactures..Ruger(doesn't get good reviews), Savage(has the ACCU Trigger), and CZ(everyone seems to like these) These aren't cheap guns!!! . Again, I won't have any shots over 150 yds. The problem with the 17cal where I live is it's sensitivity to wind. From reading, it appears that a 15MPH crosswind really moves it and in TX, there's always a 10-15 MPH breeze. I'm leaning a bit toward the 22 Hornet because of yotes. One got one of my chickens today. I've been killing them nicely with the 22-250, but I'm in the city limits and they are building houses and now a high school across the road in the near future..du
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 02:06 AM
The Aguila .22 LR Super Maximum 30-gr works great in my 10/22. It cycles it fine and feeds great even in the after factor high cap mags I use in it sometimes. Far better than most other rounds I have shot out of my 10/22 and I have tried most of them.

How it works out to 100 yards? I honestly don't know. I have never tried shooting anything living with the round at that distance. I don't know if it would still have the knock down power at that distance. 30 gr isn't a big bullet. I would probably kill a goose no problem... A coyote, I am not so sure about.

Posted By: AldoLeo49 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 05:57 AM
 Originally Posted By: david u
One got one of my chickens today. I've been killing them nicely with the 22-250, but I'm in the city limits and they are building houses and now a high school across the road in the near future..du


I use to watch the coyotes eating the mice and rats in the fields. They were beautiful to watch, and playful. Never bothered a thing. Never bothered the chickens, the cats, or any other critter, and we've had them all. They did their thing, and we appreciated them for it. We used to be considered country back then.

Now, there aren't any coyotes to appreciate. The city folk, and the mice and rats have taken over.

Send me a message with the cost of your chicken/s and an email address, and I'll send you a paypal payment to cover the cost, if I can save what little bit of country we got left.

Thanks for your consideration.
Aldo
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 11:29 AM
Don't know where Sand County is but most metropolitan areas (cities) are loaded with coyotes and other wildlife that has adapted to us. I live in a 35 year old house and subdivision. I see about one a month. I don't consider them a problem even at my land 70 miles away. No chickens here but kittens don't stand much of a chance unless kept in at night. I tend to like coyotes more than cats anyway.

Actually, in the country, I have more problems with neighbors dogs than I do coyotes. I've taken care of that problem several times.

I figure that if life on Earth ever gets wiped out there will be a couple of species that survive. Coyotes and coons will be the survivors.
Posted By: Sgt911 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 11:59 AM
Find a 5mm remington, its quite accurate..if not that then a .204 ruger, very little recoil and you can see your impacts in the scope.
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 12:25 PM
Aldo Leo, I'm on the same page with you as to leaving things alone. I don't have a problem with any critters until they decide to invade "my area".. Yes, I realize they were here(where I live) first, but some are so fearless, that they ARE a problem. My wife has chased after a few with an apple picker hollaring her head off because they grabbed a chicken or cat. Those guys figure this out and sit out in our pasture just waiting for an oppurtunity. Those yotes are not going to do well.. Thanks again for your reply...du
Posted By: Sgt911 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 12:45 PM
Sand county? Don't know where that is either, but here in Lee County Texas I have given up trying to keep any fowl or small critters..As soon as the sun goes down it is absolute carnage and mayhem...City slickers don't seem to have much effect on varmints..I have seen Coyotes, Bobcats, Foxes, Skunks, Armadillos, raccoons, opossums..and even a Hog all within a mile of downtown Houston
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 02:31 PM
Aldo, you didn't happen to write an almanac, did you? ;\)

If it'll give the guys any clues, the state is Wi.

Aldo, welcome to the forum. I talked to Luna a little while back and he said you were doing just fine.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 02:45 PM
Coyotes are all over southern California in record numbers. And they don't just kill cats. My parents lost two dogs to Coyotes. I had to clean up after both dog kills. Trust me it's not a pretty site. Coyotes will get over a 5 foot fence with easy. I'm not sure how they manage it but they do. We even see Coyotes here in the beach area occasionally. As people push into the wild areas encounters with Coyotes are inevitable.

I don't believe in killing every Coyote that you see. They are a part of nature. But if you do kill one at least you should use what you kill.


Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 04:21 PM
 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Coyotes are all over southern California in record numbers. And they don't just kill cats. My parents lost two dogs to Coyotes. I had to clean up after both dog kills. Trust me it's not a pretty site. Coyotes will get over a 5 foot fence with easy. I'm not sure how they manage it but they do. We even see Coyotes here in the beach area occasionally. As people push into the wild areas encounters with Coyotes are inevitable.

I don't believe in killing every Coyote that you see. They are a part of nature. But if you do kill one at least you should use what you kill.



JHAP, now THAT'S funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 05:05 PM
Yea, Aldo Leopold..sorry I was in a rush this morning and didn't get it. Back from the grave?? Died in 1948. Really like his book though.. Nice first post, and welcome to Pond Boss..du
Posted By: ewest Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 06:05 PM
Here is one for you. Take a good look. No bullet holes , no car impact wounds , no outward problems. Look again. Do you see any fish remains ? Yep - dumped a bunch of fish from an ice chest that cousins were supposed to pick up but forgot. A few days after no ice and they were ripe. Dumped them in this location and came back in a week. Nothing added to the fish (no poison). I guess he ate to much or got a bone stuck.



Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 06:12 PM
(Not for the faint of heart)
What do you think killed this one?
Evidence for heavy, slow bullet proponents.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 06:14 PM
he's just sleeping
Posted By: Jeff Walker Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 06:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
(Not for the faint of heart)
What do you think killed this one?
Evidence for heavy, slow bullet proponents.


Theo, I don't think that "Bullet" was slow. Heavy, yes, but not slow. LOL
Posted By: Bing Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 07:39 PM
Here is the story with pictures. The under the hood picture was a mess:

http://www.autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=40839



Coyote Coleman
This is for real....he never saw it coming
06/06/09
Brad Coleman hits Coyote
Joe Gibbs Racing driver Brad Coleman was testing a Gibbs NASCAR Sprint Cup Series
car at Toyota Arizona Proving Grounds earlier this week and came onto the radio and
told his crew something rather unusual.
"Guys, I hit a coyote," Coleman said. Coleman was running close to 200 mph around the
10-mile test track when he saw the animal wander under the outside guardrail. "I'm in
the middle of the corner, and I'm doing like 190," Coleman said Friday at Nashville
Super Speedway before practicing his Nationwide Series car.
"I'm just cruising. You run the high line there, because that's where the most banking is.
It's the high-speed lane. There's just a guardrail there like on the freeway. I see this
thing, it must've been 100 feet in front of me, just jump out. Right when I saw it come out
from under the guardrail, I was like, 'That's a coyote.'"
"It just started smoking like crazy," Coleman said. "And it smelled terrible. I didn't see
anything in the mirror, so I was like, 'I wonder where it went?' I said, 'Guys, I hit a coyote.
I'm going to come in because I think it screwed up the radiator. I think it clogged up the
grille a little bit.'"
Posted By: RAH Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 09:15 PM
22LR works fine (Ruger 10/22) on coyotes with good placement in the kill zone (not head), but our chickens were done in by mink. Chickens are stupid filthy animals anyway. Get our eggs from a neighbor who keeps them in a varmint-proof cage. Eggs are cheep. Practice with a 22LR (which is cheep to shoot) and your range will improve. Get some advice from a competitive shooter and it will go a long way in improving accuracy.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 09:37 PM
What's the furthest shot anyone has killed a coyote with a .22LR?
Posted By: MikeyBoy Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 10:55 PM
I see coyotes in the middle of the city every now and again down here. Where a friend of mine lives (Right on the border of some protected wilderness) We see them every night. They don't seem to big around here, I don't imagine they could kill much more then a small terrier or cat.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/11/09 10:56 PM
Coyotes out west rarely get larger than 30 pounds and average around 20. In the east, they average 30 pounds with big ones pushing 60.
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 12:42 AM
A 115 lb coyote taken in NY in 2005.
http://www.stripersonline.com/ubb547/image_uploads5/coyote1.JPG

Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 01:03 AM
Dang AP, the biggest I've seen in person is 55. A friend of mine who traps them on his farm said he trapped a large male that was 65. That one in the pic is darn near wolf. Did they do any genetic testing on it to see? I've heard the reason the coyotes in the east are bigger than out west is when they migrated here they went north first, interbred with wolves and have some wolf genetics in them...
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 01:13 AM
Cj I ran across that article and I don't know what the final disposition was, but some believe it was a cross breed.
I've personally seen some by the cabin that had to be close to 60 lbs.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 01:18 AM
Cool pic none the less...
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 02:38 AM
After imput here and other reading, I'm leaning toward the CZ 452 .17HMR or the CZ453(has a set trigger). Hardly anyone stocks them except Gander Mountain, so haven't picked one up to see how they feel..du
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 02:45 AM
Once you get used to the set triggers, you'll really like them.
Posted By: AldoLeo49 Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 10:16 PM
david u,

I'm sorry that you wouldn't take me up on my offer. If you feel that what you are doing is the right thing to do, then don't go stealth. Be open about it. Tell your neighbors and community. Let your neighbors know that you are protecting your property and family against killer coyotes. Perhaps they can help. Your community has a stake in THEIR wildlife also. Have you addressed this problem with the authorities? What is their take about you taking the law into your own hands? Let the people know walking the streets in your neighborhood that they may want to avoid your area. Let people know that there may be wounded coyotes in the neighborhood, so that they can protect themselves from coyotes that have never bothered them before, but can really be dangerous when wounded.

I'm pretty sure that I know your neighborhood. I've never once heard of a coyote causing problems. People shoot dogs sometimes, but I've never heard of anyone shooting coyotes until now.
Posted By: RAH Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 10:38 PM
Unlike timber wolves, coyotes will attack people, even more so with coy-dogs. Coyotes are increasing by leaps and bounds. Shooting them is a public service.
Posted By: JoeG Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 10:44 PM
With all due respect Aldo, you must live in a bubble if you have never heard of anyone shooting coyotes until now. Coyotes around here subsist on anything they can get their teeth into. As a bit of fod for thought, the PA game commission has done radio collar studies on whitetailed deer fawns, and coyotes were the number two predator on young coyote fawns. Black bear are number one, I know we shouldn't shoot them either, ever read Genesis 9:3??
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Rifle question - 08/12/09 11:05 PM
 Originally Posted By: AldoLeo49
david u,

I'm sorry that you wouldn't take me up on my offer. If you feel that what you are doing is the right thing to do, then don't go stealth. Be open about it. Tell your neighbors and community. Let your neighbors know that you are protecting your property and family against killer coyotes. Perhaps they can help. Your community has a stake in THEIR wildlife also. Have you addressed this problem with the authorities? What is their take about you taking the law into your own hands? Let the people know walking the streets in your neighborhood that they may want to avoid your area. Let people know that there may be wounded coyotes in the neighborhood, so that they can protect themselves from coyotes that have never bothered them before, but can really be dangerous when wounded.

I'm pretty sure that I know your neighborhood. I've never once heard of a coyote causing problems. People shoot dogs sometimes, but I've never heard of anyone shooting coyotes until now.


Aldo

Sorry to butt in....first off, welcome to the Forum! Secondly, I appreciate your position and most of us can appreciate your passion for defending/supporting it. We have a lot of sportsmen on the Forum and the vast majority have grown up with guns and hunting in their blood. I respect these guys, heck, admire them and really consider them my cyber-brothers. However, there is a smaller contingent of us that approach fisheries management and their wilderness experience from more of a conservation position, including myself. The president of the Arbor Day Foundation and a friend of mine is a forum member - so you can see we literally run the spectrum in terms of viewpoints.

One aspect I value so deeply is we all bring our passion, expertise, and personal experience to the table. It's a diverse group, to be sure, but I feel that makes our collective experience that much richer. I've learned in a couple years from the forum members what would have taken me a lifetime and thousands of dollars on my own, and developed some great friendships along the way from guys with completely different backgrounds and experiences than my own - which has been very rewarding.

With that in mind, wanted to say I appreciate your position and to let you know my experience has shown that the forum is not represented by drunken sign shooting poachers or bleeding heart eco warriors - but a considerate blend thereof...so again, welcome aboard!

FYI - As for the questions on where Sand County is located - it's in Wisconsin somewhere if memory serves me correctly. Aldo Leopold is the author of Sand County Almanac - a sacred, historic text as far as conservationists are concerned - and one of my favorite books. Great allusion, Aldo.
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 12:09 AM
Everyone has a right to their opinion,and the freedom to express it ,but some people only see what they want to see!!! ;\)
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 01:10 AM
[quote=teehjaeh57FYI - As for the questions on where Sand County is located - it's in Wisconsin somewhere if memory serves me correctly. Aldo Leopold is the author of Sand County Almanac - a sacred, historic text as far as conservationists are concerned - and one of my favorite books. Great allusion, Aldo. [/quote]

Yup. Saulk County, Wi. Aldo passed away in 1949 and one of his sons, Luna published the book Sand County Almanac after his father's death. Aldo was a professor at UW Madison. For a book that was published roughly 30 years after market hunting ended, it was very controversial. It still is a classic, and I highly recommend it if you haven't read it before.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 01:29 AM
Thanks for the clarification Esshup - in full agreement any steward of the land who plants a tree or controls erosion creates wildlife etc. would benefit from this read - and that's all of us in the forum I reckon.

Sorry for the brief hijack just wanted to shout out to my conservationist and my second ammendment supporting bros!
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 12:45 PM
Moderators and forum members, the purpose of this thread was to get imput on rifle selection, not the moral or ethical aspects of hunting or eliminating unwanted critters that kill your livestock or pets. Those topics IMHO don't belong here. If it is so deemed appropriate by the moderators, locking this thread is sure ok my me...du
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 04:06 PM
 Originally Posted By: david u
After imput here and other reading, I'm leaning toward the CZ 452 .17HMR or the CZ453(has a set trigger). Hardly anyone stocks them except Gander Mountain, so haven't picked one up to see how they feel..du


DU, I think you will be well served by the 17HMR. While I have never owned a CZ, they do have a very good reputation. How much do they run?

Bass Pro has a heavy barrelled blued Savage bolt action in 17HMR with accu-trigger on sale for $219. I personally bought the Stainless Bull Barrelled Savage with the thumbhole stock. It ain't much for totin around, but it sure works great from a fixed position.

At 100 yds, it will average less than 3/4 of an inch all day long, wind permitting, and my best 100 yd group to date was .375".

Wreaks havoc on turtles!!
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 04:37 PM
Thanks again for all the helpful imput. I ended up getting a CZ 452 American in .17HMR. Put a Leupold 4-12x40 on it with Harris bi-pod. Shot it in last evening and really like the rifle. I have ordered the trigger adj kit. Opted out of the 453(single trigger set) rifle because the pull, for me, was awkward after setting the trigger. The CZ 452 was $400, the CZ 453 Varmit was over $500..Here's the set up

Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: Rifle question - 08/13/09 09:24 PM
Very nice du! That's an outfit to like.
You'll be impressed the first time you take game at 200yds. They drop before you can blink.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 03:40 AM
Very nice DU. Great looking wooden stock finish. I like the magazine feed... How many rounds does the magazine hold? Where's the photo of the target you shot?
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 04:49 AM
Nice rig! You preloading the bipod before the shot? 9"-13" non-swivel?
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 10:33 AM
What does preloading a bipod mean?

I'm a real long way from being a conservationist. However, I've never shot a coyote. I like watching the ultimate hunter work. However, anything that becomes a problem is history.
Posted By: RAH Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 11:02 AM
I consider myself an avid conservationist. I have returned most of our farm to wildlife habitat, and when done, hopefully 90% will be in wildlife habitat. We have done this by going to high-intensity farming (just about the opposite of organic farming). We concentrate high-productivity vegetable culture on a few acres, allowing restoration of the remaining acres. We use raised beds, plasticulture and drip irrigation, and use pesticides according to lable only when needed. I also hunt those game animals that have thriving populations, including deer. We have lots of coyotes, and I take these out when I get a chance (usually during the time when their fur can be used). We have no wolves to do this for us. I do not even make a nick in the population. Turkey are legal, but our local population is meager, so I have never hunted them or killed one. Trespassers on neighbors' land have just about wiped them out. To me, conservationists preserve natural resources, and our farm now has way more animals (game and non-game) and plants than it did in 1990 when we bought it. It also has a added pond, 3 wetlands and prairie, and we are not done. I consider myself an avid hunter and conservationist. I don't see the conflict between the two.
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 12:43 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
What does preloading a bipod mean?


Copied from Bugholes by Froggy

"And don't even think of shooting free recoil off a bipod. It just doesn't work because you don't want those legs bouncing backwards out of control.

When shooting with a bipod it is essential that the bipod be adjusted properly for elevation and cant. The bipod must be of good quality. I like Harris swivel bipods with notched legs. When the bipod is set up properly, and if you push slightly forward with the rifle to firm up the 'pod's legs, excellent results can be realized with lots of practice."
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 12:58 PM
esshup:

Since Froggy was talking .308, would this still be applicable with the hard-recoiling .17 HMR?
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 03:51 PM
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet DU!!

I think you will like it.
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 03:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: RAH
I consider myself an avid hunter and conservationist. I don't see the conflict between the two.


RAH, they are one in the same.
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/14/09 07:05 PM
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
esshup:

Since Froggy was talking .308, would this still be applicable with the hard-recoiling .17 HMR?




The only way to know for sure is to try it. I've found that being consistent in as many things as possible (hand position, pressure, trigger finger placement, etc) yields the best results.

My Accutrigger Savage in .22lr that was rebarreled specifically for the Aguilar 60 gr. SSS shoots better that way when the bipod is used vs. bags front and back. They're probably pretty close to having the same amount of recoil.
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/15/09 03:33 AM
Interesting essup about the preloading. ZERO recoil of course with the 17cal, but have ordered another Harris bi-pod for my 22-250 so will try your pre load. The bi pod pictured is a 13.5"-23" and I found it too short for a sitting shot. The new one will be 12"-25"..The stock magazine holds 5 shots. The trigger out of the box is firm, but since I don't have a Lyman gauge, I'm not sure what it is. There is a mod to lessen trigger pull(spring) and creep(seer adjustment) that I will try. I can tell you that after shooting the 17cal, it will be harder to grab the Ruger 10/22, even though I love that gun. If Ruger could figure out how to get their 10/22 carbine to accurately shoot 17cal, well I'd go broke buying ammo...
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/15/09 05:07 AM
Midway and Brownell's sell a barrel that will convert a 10/22 magnum to 17 HMR..... I'm unsure whether it just is a simple barrel swap or if more parts are needed like converting a 10/22 to .17 MachII. I don't know how accurate they are tho.

Start buying ammo!
Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: Rifle question - 08/15/09 01:57 PM
Here's what I have in 17 mach 2:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=MLR17M2BFC
They take a 1022 action & build these rifles. I've never shot anything more accurate.

I'm not familiar with converting but there's more to it than just changing bbls. At the very least extra weight has to be added to the bolt to asorb the higher recoil in the .17's.
Posted By: Rangersedge Rifle question - 08/17/09 03:37 AM
A couple things to consider... I wouldn't worry excessively about noise. No one locates that first shot. It's the second one that tracks you down. Second, I would worry about ricochets. Advantage of something like the .17 Rem and the .204 Ruger is that the bullet is fragile enough that it shouldn't ricochet (it should explode instead with pieces losing velocity fast). Another advantage is that they seem to be extremely accurate cartridges.

Rest of my post somewhat unrelated... I have two rifles that will honestly do 1/2" groups from a bench at 100 years in front of witnesses. One is a Ruger R77V in .22-250. The other is a Remington 700 BDL in .17 Rem. I don't have a .204 yet; but I've been tempted for a long time. The Ruger was a horrendous shooter (3-4" groups) until I had a gunsmith work on the bedding and trigger. Was like a completely different rifle. The Remington was used. Person just had iron sights on it. I was able to test it before buying. Shot great; but had a nasty habit of going off when closing the bolt occasionally - even with finger totally away from trigger. Got that fixed. Great rifle. Shot a lot of critters with each. Wouldn't recommend them for heavier stuff where they might blow up without adequate penetration; but they are pretty amazing for smaller varmits.
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/17/09 01:26 PM
Rangersedge, you made a good point that I may not have mentioned concerning bullets richocheting and down range travel. Even though I live on 75 acres, I was more worried about those factors shooting my 22-250 than the target! As you stated, the 17HMR's ballistics remove those concerns, making it a more enjoyable rifle to shoot. I talked to a small bore shooter about the .204, but he said they are pretty loud so cossed it off my list. He also really likes the caliber for pdogs, etc. But, looks like you need to reload or be rich to afford the ammo..du
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/17/09 08:06 PM
Yes, the factory ammo for the .204 is pricey. It is a great caliber IMO though.
Posted By: RAH Re: Rifle question - 08/17/09 08:38 PM
All amo is now expensive, when you can find it.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Rifle question - 08/17/09 09:53 PM
BTW my other wildlife business was recently setup for wholesale ammo. My biz plan is to market to my customer base. I will provide them my cost up front let them add 10%. Most business would fail with this profit margin but it is gravy money for me. SOme prices are 30-40 off sporting good prices. Some are not that good. Tosn of hunting supplies, optics, reloading equipment, archery (the reason I got setup with them), etc.
I have a minimum order of $150 but if any wants ammo email me a list of what your looking for. Lots of calibers low or no supply right now.
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/17/09 11:37 PM
Greg:

Thanks for posting. I'll be sure to give you a shout the next time I'm looking for goodies.

In your spare time, would you shoot me a price on a Nightforce 5.5-22x50 NPR1 reticle rifle scope with zero stop? I ordered one recently, and I want to see how bad I did. \:\( I think that might meet your minimum! ;\)
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 04:36 AM
Yikes! I don't even wanna know what that bad boy cost! Thanks for the info Greg. Next time I am buying ammo I'll give you a holler.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 12:13 PM
esshup, swing and a miss. Of all the ones to ask me about, 52 manufactures of scopes and choose one my supplier does not carry. I'm seraching now for the nikno monarch for your buddy. I will update tommorrow, headed out to work on foxworthy lake again.
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 01:46 PM
Thanks Greg. I'll look for your reply. CJ: It could have been worse, I didn't go with Schmidt & Bender! From what I'm expecting of this particular lead thrower, I thought it deserved good glass, and I like the NPR1 reticle vs the NPR2. I wish the horizontal stadia lines were 1 MOA as well. The Leupold Mark IV weighs a little bit less, but I like the bigger magnification for the longer shots that this rifle is capable of making.
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 04:08 PM
Essup's scope http://www.authorizedoptics.com/nightforce-nxs-5-22x50-npr1.html Another of those "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" things I know all too well about. Heck, I'm just glad to get a VariX-II Leupold..du
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 05:48 PM
David U:

Close, but not quite, mine also has the zero stop option. ;\) Even so, at the price that's in your link, it's still more than what I paid for it new. It was more than a Leupy tho!

I'll throw a pic up here when I get the gun. I'm hopeing that it's before the Wy. trip next month. I've got everything crossed that possibly could be crossed hoping that it'll make it in time.

I can't believe how fast good optics are increasing in price. I think it's even worse than the price increases on ammo!

How's the new rifle working out??
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 06:27 PM
esshup, what are you hunting. I tried for an after issue Antelope license in the Como Bluffs area, but missed out. Bought a point, so maybe better luck nest year..du
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/18/09 08:42 PM
Speed goats. I can't believe that I got that lucky. I used up my preference points last year on an antelope, and put in for unit 71 as first choice, 72 as second. I didn't get my first choice, but I was pulled for both buck and doe in unit 72 plus, because it was my 2nd choice, I got a preference point as well. Last year we hunted Unit 71 and glassed tons of Antelope. Unit 72 is just right next door, so I'm hoping the hunting is just as well. This year I'll be a bit more selective. We'll do a bit of varmint hunting as well, so I'll be bringing a few different guns.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/19/09 03:30 AM
I want to see pics!
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/19/09 04:10 AM
Like this?






Or like this?





Or this?

I even like my muzzleloaders to be accurate! To the squeamish: I apologize for the red snow. I don't photoshop very well.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/19/09 07:07 AM
Oh the brutality! HAHA
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Rifle question - 08/19/09 10:40 PM
Make it more sporting, next time use a stun gun.
Posted By: PFV Re: Rifle question - 08/19/09 11:23 PM
Speed Goats!!! I love it.

They are indeed the second fastest land animal on the planet.

esshup, love the neck shot on the nice whitetail buck! Man, what I'd give to be able to hunt in the snow. In my life, done it maybe 8 or 10 times, and most of those were bird hunts.

What kind of muzzleloader is that? Is the wood factory? Looks very interesting....and accurate!!

And no apologies necessary....red snow ROCKS!!
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/20/09 12:24 AM
Hunting in the snow is nice for a while, but it gets old when the snow is knee deep and the temps start dropping below 0*F!

The stock is a Richards Microfit laminate, the gun is a Savage ML-I muzzleloader (the first generation). It was designed to use regular rifle powder, so I don't have to clean it after a day of shooting with soap & water. I just take care of it like any centerfire rifle. It normally shoots right around 3/4" c-c @ 100 Yds, it's best group was just under 1/2" c-c. It likes 250 gr. Hornady SST's, pushed by 43.5g of IMR-4759 for a Mv right around 2250 fps.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/20/09 01:13 AM
I suspect getting shot by that might sting a bit...
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/20/09 01:51 AM
Probably no worse than a stun gun, although the effect might last a bit longer. ;\)
Posted By: esshup Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/22/09 03:11 AM
Here's what he said: "Wanted to get you an update. I have your barrel fitted, threaded, chambered and installed on the receiver. Next week I will be switching over to stock work and will get your rifle stock bedded, then muzzle brake and finish work. Getting near the end of the road now"

Whoo Hoo!!! We started down this road June of last year.
Posted By: AldoLeo49 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 02:44 AM
I'll do what I can to protect the wildlife from slaughter.
Posted By: esshup Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 02:59 AM
 Originally Posted By: AldoLeo49
I'll do what I can to protect the wildlife from slaughter.
\:D

The only slaughter will be various sized metal plates at varying distances, out to 1K yds. Natures bounty will only be harvested using the State's biologists guidelines. Not slaughter; rather harvest one, then make sure that it's properly taken care of to ensure it will be prime table fare.
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 03:09 AM
If anti-hunt people want to see suffering and misery, go check out a late winter deer yard where many deer die of starvation due to overpopulation. I've seen it happen up here in the Adirondacks.
Posted By: Chris Steelman Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 04:08 AM
Aldo,

If you are trying to save the wildlife how about you send Fatty McButterpants several thousand dollars to repair the mess that I beaver made to his dam. Maybe the next time one comes back we can just repair the dam and not have to kill it.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 03:53 PM
Aldo,

I'm confused as to why you are even here on Pond Boss. You have not made one comment about ponds. Your 3 posts have been anti hunting posts on a forum dedicated toward ponds.

Most folks here know me, I'm an easy going guy, but I must tell you that you are trying my patience. Thankfully for you I do not have the power of a moderator or you would be blocked.

But let me educate you a little. If you subscribe to Pond Boss magazine you are aware of the fact that much of each issue is dedicated to providing habitat for wildlife. In fact, each and every issue contains an article written by Dan VanSchaik - a nationally known wildlife biologist. These articles are specifically designed to educate pond owners on various topics related to the heath and care of wildlife in general and he rarely even mentions ponds or fish in his articles.

As pond bosses we are well aware of the benefits and beauty of all of nature's creatures. In fact we have created habitat for wild creatures to obtain water, shelter and food. I'm not discussing fish here, I'm talking about various types of birds, deer, squirrel, bear, bobcat, mountain lion, reptiles, many aquatic and terrestrial types of amphibians - and these are just creatures that benefit by the pond on my property. Imagine how this is magnified by all of the forum participant's ponds across the United States, in Canada and yes even in Thailand.

Your attitude seems to be condescending and is to the wrong crowd. Yes some people on this forum hunt. Educate yourself on wild life management practices and you will find that in order to ensure a healthy wild population some culling must occur.

Please refrain from posting your dogma. You are on the wrong forum.

Moderators feel free to remove this post if you deem it inappropriate.
Posted By: Walt Foreman Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 04:43 PM
 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Aldo,

I'm confused as to why you are even here on Pond Boss. You have not made one comment about ponds. Your 3 posts have been anti hunting posts on a forum dedicated toward ponds.

Most folks here know me, I'm an easy going guy, but I must tell you that you are trying my patience. Thankfully for you I do not have the power of a moderator or you would be blocked.

But let me educate you a little. If you subscribe to Pond Boss magazine you are aware of the fact that much of each issue is dedicated to providing habitat for wildlife. In fact, each and every issue contains an article written by Dan VanSchaik - a nationally known wildlife biologist. These articles are specifically designed to educate pond owners on various topics related to the heath and care of wildlife in general and he rarely even mentions ponds or fish in his articles.

As pond bosses we are well aware of the benefits and beauty of all of nature's creatures. In fact we have created habitat for wild creatures to obtain water, shelter and food. I'm not discussing fish here, I'm talking about various types of birds, deer, squirrel, bear, bobcat, mountain lion, reptiles, many aquatic and terrestrial types of amphibians - and these are just creatures that benefit by the pond on my property. Imagine how this is magnified by all of the forum participant's ponds across the United States, in Canada and yes even in Thailand.

Your attitude seems to be condescending and is to the wrong crowd. Yes some people on this forum hunt. Educate yourself on wild life management practices and you will find that in order to ensure a healthy wild population some culling must occur.

Please refrain from posting your dogma. You are on the wrong forum.

Moderators feel free to remove this post if you deem it inappropriate.


+1
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 05:37 PM
Add back 3.5 for Jeff.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 06:59 PM
Jeff,

That may be your very best post ever!

Thanks,
Ken
Posted By: Yolk Sac Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 08:24 PM
Jeff-

Exactly what I was feeling, though I couldn't have expessed it so clearly.

Maybe there's more to these green sunfish than I'm seeing? Am I blind to their more subtle aesthetics and advantages? Can you strip away my prejudices by such concise and precise deployment of the English language?

Probably not. But great post anyway.
Posted By: ewest Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 08:24 PM
Well done Jeff.

Pond Boss = conservationist

Individual private landowners are the best conservationists !

The early conservation movement included fisheries and wildlife management, water, soil conservation and sustainable forestry. Some say the conservation movement is part of the broader and more far-reaching environmental movement, while others argue that they differ both in ideology and practice. Chiefly in the United States, conservation is seen as differing from environmentalism in that it aims to preserve natural resources expressly for their continued sustainable use by humans.

In 1937, hunters successfully lobbied Congress to pass the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act, which placed an 11% tax on all hunting equipment. This self-imposed tax now generates over $700 million each year and is used exclusively to establish, restore and protect wildlife habitats.


On March 16, 1934 President Roosevelt signed the Migratory Bird Hunting Stamp Act, which requires an annual stamp purchase by all hunters over the age of sixteen. The stamps are created on behalf of the program by the U.S. Postal Service and depict wildlife artwork chosen through an annual contest. They play an important role in habitat conservation because 98% of all funds generated by their sale go directly toward the purchase or lease of wetland habitat for protection in the National Wildlife Refuge System. In addition to waterfowl, it is estimated that one third of the nation's endangered species seek food and shelter in areas protected using Duck Stamp funds. Since 1934, the sale of Federal Duck Stamps has generated $670M and helped to purchase or lease 5.2 million acres (21,000 km²) of habitat. The stamps serve as a license to hunt migratory birds, an entrance pass for all National Wildlife Refuge areas and are also considered collectors items often purchased for aesthetic reasons outside of the hunting and birding communities. Although non-hunters buy a significant number of Duck Stamps, 87% of their sales are contributed to hunters.

The Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration Act, commonly referred to as the Dingell-Johnson act, passed at the request of fishermen , on August 9, 1950, and was modeled after the Pittman-Robertson Act to create a parallel program for management, conservation, and restoration of fishery resources.

The Sport Fish Restoration program is funded by revenues collected from the manufacturers of fishing rods, reels, creels, lures, flies and artificial baits, who pay an excise tax on these items to the U.S. Treasury.

An amendment in 1984 (Wallop-Breaux Amendment) added new provisions to the Act by extending the excise tax to previously untaxed items of sport fishing equipment.

A major element of the W-B Amendment established a new Trust Fund, named the Aquatic Resources Trust Fund. Funds are also received from import duties on sport fishing equipment, pleasure boats and yachts. Another source of revenue is a tax from motorboat fuel sales. These motorboat fuel taxes are collected by the U.S. Treasury and then transferred to the Fish and Wildlife Service for distribution among the States and territories.

Under the Wallop-Breaux amendments to the Sport Fish Restoration Act, about a half-billion dollars are doled out to the states each year. Sixty percent of each state's share is based on the number of licensed anglers, 40 on land and water area. No state can get more than five percent or less than one percent of available funds.
Posted By: Jeff Walker Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/25/09 08:43 PM
JHAP, You can't see it but I'm standing on my chair applauding you. Great post and nicely said.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 02:13 AM
Don't forget all the private conservation organizations like Trout Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ruffed Grouse Society, Quail Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, Dove Sportsman Society, International Game Fish Association, Quality Deer Management to just name a few of the many privately funded organization. They spend millions of dollars a year on habitat improvement which not only helps out game birds, animals and fish but many other species. If it weren't for sportsman and the BILLIONS of dollars they spend a year, I'd hate to see what America's wildlife populations would be life...
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 03:43 AM
You know what's also interesting about private groups -- at least here in my state? All our important fish programs were started by private groups and then taken over by our DNR. Musky program, trout program, steelhead program, Walleye etc etc. Why is that?

Note: This is not a knock against our DNR that does an outstanding job. I just find it interesting the a lot of good ideas have been initiated by private groups, at least in our state.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 10:11 AM
Another interesting tidbit. SDSU, AKA Dave Willis's playground, received a grant from the Boone and Crocket organization for the study of fisheries.
Posted By: PFV Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 11:51 AM
Eloquently put JHAP. And much more tactful than if I had said it.

Great Job.
Posted By: jims place Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 12:45 PM
 Originally Posted By: PFV
Eloquently put JHAP. And much more tactful than if I had said it.

Great Job.

X2
Posted By: bobad Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 01:10 PM
Jeff,

Congratulations on a finely worded and well balanced post. I can tell that you see both sides of the issue, and have carefully thought them through. Some rights and values trump other's, and we must always try to err on the side of the greater.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 01:34 PM
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Don't forget all the private conservation organizations like Trout Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ruffed Grouse Society, Quail Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, Dove Sportsman Society, International Game Fish Association, Quality Deer Management...


What no mention of the GSA? We spend 10s and 11s of dollars each year preserving the habitat of our beloved fish. The rest of our budget goes toward weapons research and tracking infidels.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 02:24 PM
Thank you all for the kind words regarding my response. As you all know I am a huge fan of this site. I really enjoy the interaction amongst members and the discussions and obviously the humor.

I've been asked a couple of times so I'll publicly answer, I'm not a hunter. This is not because I have any objection towards hunting. It's because I grew up in the city and sneaking around housing developments and shooting at stuff is reserved solely for gang members. \:D

I completely understand that the need to cull wild populations is a vital part of wildlife conservation. Although this has not always been true, it is my belief that the inhabitants of the United States have reached a very balanced view regarding the wildlife with which we share this glorious land. Here in the United States we have some of the best, if not the best, wildlife protection laws and regulations in the world that, as Ewest and others have pointed out, in many instances have been instigated and/or funded by hunting and fishing organizations. Further I believe that anyone that zealously hates hunting has not taken the time to study some of the very principals of wildlife management. They see only a hunter standing beside a dead animal and become enraged not realizing that if culling did not occur entire populations of animals would be at risk of extinction.

At the last Pond Boss conference Ewest spoke very eloquently about how each one of us is a custodian of our land, improving and preserving our own individual slices of heaven for future generations to enjoy. It is my belief that everyone of us here share that philosophy and, in fact, is why we participate in this great forum.

But I know I'm preaching to the informed and so I'll stop.

Thanks again for the kind words.


Posted By: david u Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 05:16 PM
JHAP, Since Aldo's posts were directed toward me, well I've been thinking about responding directly to his remarks, but could never find the right words. IMHO, you have found the right words.. Thank you ...du
Posted By: esshup Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 05:45 PM
david u:

I thought it was me Aldo was directing his comment at.

How's the new toy working out? I'm about to go out and slaughter some paper with my .223 to try and figure out a load for it. A friend gave me a good selection of bullets, from Barnes 36g Varmint Grenades to 60g Hornady V-Max. Monday a couple of friends and I are taking a trip to the 1K yd range that I'm a member at to see how the guns shoot at a distance.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 06:08 PM
 Originally Posted By: esshup
A friend gave me a good selection of bullets, from Barnes 36g Varmint Grenades to 60g Hornady V-Max.

Keep that friend.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/26/09 07:00 PM
 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Thank you all for the kind words regarding my response. As you all know I am a huge fan of this site. I really enjoy the interaction amongst members and the discussions and obviously the humor.

I've been asked a couple of times so I'll publicly answer, I'm not a hunter. This is not because I have any objection towards hunting. It's because I grew up in the city and sneaking around housing developments and shooting at stuff is reserved solely for gang members. \:D

I completely understand that the need to cull wild populations is a vital part of wildlife conservation. Although this has not always been true, it is my belief that the inhabitants of the United States have reached a very balanced view regarding the wildlife with which we share this glorious land. Here in the United States we have some of the best, if not the best, wildlife protection laws and regulations in the world that, as Ewest and others have pointed out, in many instances have been instigated and/or funded by hunting and fishing organizations. Further I believe that anyone that zealously hates hunting has not taken the time to study some of the very principals of wildlife management. They see only a hunter standing beside a dead animal and become enraged not realizing that if culling did not occur entire populations of animals would be at risk of extinction.

At the last Pond Boss conference Ewest spoke very eloquently about how each one of us is a custodian of our land, improving and preserving our own individual slices of heaven for future generations to enjoy. It is my belief that everyone of us here share that philosophy and, in fact, is why we participate in this great forum.

But I know I'm preaching to the informed and so I'll stop.

Thanks again for the kind words.




Jeff, you pulled a very good one off there, but can you type that smoothly when the tele-prompter fails?





Yolk, I was afraid you were leaving me all alone for a second there!
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/26/09 09:33 PM
 Originally Posted By: AldoLeo49
 Originally Posted By: david u
One got one of my chickens today. I've been killing them nicely with the 22-250, but I'm in the city limits and they are building houses and now a high school across the road in the near future..du


I use to watch the coyotes eating the mice and rats in the fields. They were beautiful to watch, and playful. Never bothered a thing. Never bothered the chickens, the cats, or any other critter, and we've had them all. They did their thing, and we appreciated them for it. We used to be considered country back then.

Now, there aren't any coyotes to appreciate. The city folk, and the mice and rats have taken over.

Send me a message with the cost of your chicken/s and an email address, and I'll send you a paypal payment to cover the cost, if I can save what little bit of country we got left.

Thanks for your consideration.
Aldo



Nope Essup, here's the first Aldo message.. Anyway, the CZ .17HMR is a lot of fun to shoot, It's like shooting a 22cal, but a lot more accurate at 100-125yds.. Still waiting on trigger kit..du
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Rifle question - 08/26/09 10:09 PM
I wanna see pics of a 100 yard target...
Posted By: Rainman Re: Rifle question - 08/26/09 10:16 PM
100yards is easy! I wanna see VIDEO of the 1K target!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Rifle question - 08/26/09 10:19 PM
I wonder if Aldo is the same guy that asked me at the first convention, "How the hell do you spend so much time on the Pond Boss web site? How do you get anything done?"
Posted By: Brettski Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 12:31 AM
 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
I wonder if Aldo is the same guy that asked me at the first convention, "How the hell do you spend so much time on the Pond Boss web site? How do you get anything done?"

I thought you said Bill Cody was giving you heat for that...?
Posted By: esshup Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 12:50 AM
It's good that I don't have a video recorder then!
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 02:03 AM
 Originally Posted By: Brettski
 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
I wonder if Aldo is the same guy that asked me at the first convention, "How the hell do you spend so much time on the Pond Boss web site? How do you get anything done?"

I thought you said Bill Cody was giving you heat for that...?


No, not the same thing at all Brettski. Bill is making a good point that I could be writing some articles in the time I spend here. This guy comes out of the blue whom I've never met, and says,"How the hell do you spend so much time on the Pond Boss web site? How do you get anything done?," with a really nasty tone. Big difference.
Posted By: MikeyBoy Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 09:30 AM
Did you ever email him your paypal... might be worth a few bucks..

:P
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 12:35 PM
 Originally Posted By: MikeyBoy
Did you ever email him your paypal... might be worth a few bucks..

:P


???
Posted By: david u Re: Rifle question - 08/27/09 03:02 PM


 Originally Posted By: AldoLeo49
I'm pretty sure that I know your neighborhood. I've never once heard of a coyote causing problems. People shoot dogs sometimes, but I've never heard of anyone shooting coyotes until now.


No Mickey Boy, I didn't send him any info for a Paypal payment for the chickens. I thought the above statement was kind of wierd! du
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 03:04 PM
 Originally Posted By: Rainman
Jeff, you pulled a very good one off there, but can you type that smoothly when the tele-prompter fails?


Tele-prompter, I don't need no stinkin tele-prompter!

The voices in my head tell me what to say - which works out very well except for the voice that speaks in Russian, I can't understand a word he says.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 03:11 PM
голоса в моей голове сказали мне идти в ресторан

P.S. Why is it every Russian saying looks like it contains "kaopectate"?
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 03:24 PM
Dang Theo you must have one strange looking keyboard.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 05:21 PM
Yeah, how did you do that?
Posted By: Chris Steelman Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 05:26 PM
Я понятия не имею, как он сделал это.

Theo,

What restaurant are you going to?
Posted By: Brettski Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 05:59 PM
Jeesh, don't get 'em started. Next, they'll be posting the lunch special at their favorite Porturalian restaurant.
Posted By: david u Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 06:04 PM
Google..right of search box "language tools"
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 06:25 PM
 Originally Posted By: Chris Steelman

Theo,

What restaurant are you going to?

Пицца Хат
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 06:27 PM
 Originally Posted By: Brettski
Jeesh, don't get 'em started. Next, they'll be posting the lunch special at their favorite Porturalian restaurant.

I doubt you can handle Porturalian cusine, Bski.

Nor would you know what kind of wine goes with koala and chouriço.
Posted By: heybud Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 06:27 PM
ジェフは日本の平均の臭いキャベツ頭部である
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Just heard from the Gunsmith - 08/27/09 06:30 PM
I don't really like cabbage.
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