I am relatively new to Pondboss and understand the reasoning for sticking with standard stocking plans like LMB and BG (and channel cats), or SMB and yellow Perch in small ponds to prevent stunted fish, etc. However, in upstate NY I regularly fish a few public "lakes" that are more like large ponds: one is 5 and one is 11 acres in the same park land. They are not stocked nor managed by the state (may have been stocked at one time or are natural. They seem to be in perfect balance, even for relatively small water bodies. One is great fishing with chain pickerel and LMB as predators and BG (maybe some GSF or other sunfish species, not sure) and yellow perch as forage, along with bullheads, rock bass, shiners, many crayfish, some frogs, etc. and I see no stunted fish or too many of one species when I fish there. I have also used a minnow net and caught YOY pickerel, BG, LMB, bullheads, crayfish, etc. at various times of year. I guess it is partly due to much open water, but also some small areas of spatterdock and weeds for cover, and some other natural structure (rocks, logs). Just curious if anyone out there has tried stocking their pond with multiple predators and prey species. It seems to work in nature, even in these small "lakes" (large ponds) up here. I was thinking of putting in chain pickerel along with the LMB in my uncle's NJ farm pond of 1.5 acres and also some yellow perch to supplement the BG. There is not a lot of weeds in my uncle's pond, so pickerel would not likely take over. I know Northern Pike would be an issue in a small pond, but pickerel seem to be a nice smaller size and fun to catch. Any thoughts on stepping outside the normal stocking wisdom - just trying to expand the fishing fun and creating something closer to what you find in nature.

Well, we all learn by each others' trial and error.

I say go for it and keep us all in the loop.

Every time you add a species, you add at least the possibility of complicating things. BUT, if you want CP (Hey! I got to add a new acronym to the Archives!) and YP on top of BG/LMB, go for it! I think many uncommon stocking schemes will work if managed - the big question which isn't answerable ahead of time (because they are uncommon) is how much management.

So take the plunge if you want; also take good notes and, like Sunil say, keep us informed.

End PR mode enter speculation mode.

CW sez YP should not be a major long-term player in a BG/LMB pond (and will likely require periodic restocking). The Chain Pickerel will be the big wild card. A quick reference check indicated maximum size less than LMB (average size 3-5 pounds, U.S record 9+pounds), so they should not have the affect on LMB populations that, say, Blue Cats could. It looks like they might well spawn in ponds (anyone have experience???) and if so, a very successful CP spawn at the end of Winter could have a big impact on LMB recruitment a couple of months later from all the hungry baby pickerel waiting on bass for breakfast.

Oldsconv -- as you have already discovered, most of the "traditional" pond management strategies are simple, probably in an effort to be "safe." One of the fun things about Pond Boss is the interest in doing more. Many of these pondmeisters are willing to experiment with different fish species and management options, but also are willing to invest some money if something goes wrong (e.g., rotenone and start over).

The chain pickerel could be interesting. Northern pike (a larger cousin of the chain pickerel) can eat you out of house and home in a pond if the pike get too abundant. If they are not too abundant, they actually can help thin the small largemouth bass, and create ponds that have decent size bass as well as decent size panfish. A few folks on the Forum have wondered about stocking a few female-only northern pike to get the benefits without having to worry about too much natural reproduction.

Food for thought!

oldsconv , welcome and to answer one of your questions - if anyone out there has tried stocking their pond with multiple predators and prey species - the answer is yes. Norm has such a pond. Here is a link to his info. Send him a PM or email or look at his posts here.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=854

See this thread ***

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1750&Number=19302#Post19302


Go for it and keep us posted.

oldsconv,

I think you touched on the magic formula for stocking multiple predators. Abundance and diversity of cover is the great equalizer's among species in ponds and lakes.

Even the most carefully planned small ponds with plenty of structure have a lot less cover than many natural bodies of water.

The better ponds and lakes I have fished only had about 50 to 75% "fishable" waters. The rest being shallows, thick weeds, tree roots, etc that you can't even access. Diverse habitat and cover encourages diverse and plentiful forage, which supports diverse predators. Not sure, but I'm guessing that not too many folks are willing to sacrifice so much fishable water (and nice fish) in smaller ponds in order to carry extra predators. But I'm with you. I lean toward natural diversity, mostly because it's interesting. I am willing to sacrifice a little carrying capacity, growth rate, and size... but not a lot.

This answer might be above but with little wed coverage your correct the CP may not "takeover". I see a very stron correlation when electrofishing with density of chain pickerel and abundance of weeds.

Guess time might tell with my first pond. I have the normal BG, LMB and CC, plus RES. In addition, I've added walleyes (a few saugers), flathead cats, black crappie and would love to have 1 (note, just ONE) big ol' narthern to toss in there.

We catch fish, either way. Some days, though it just seems tough to catch anything...ain't because anything's overstocked. I've go so many predators (all seem aggressive and FAT) patrolling the shorelines the it's no wonder there ain't many panfish to be had.

It'll either work or it won't. It's just kind of neat to have absolutely no idea what one might hook into on any given day. More like fishing a lake than some pond.

Thanks for the feedback everyone and I will keep you posted. It's funny, I have heard yellow perch will disappear quickly in farm ponds due to LMB predation. Then elsewhere I have read that yellow perch should be avoided in farm ponds because they prey heavily on baby bass. As mentioned, I am not sure if I can even get the chain pickerel going as there is not a lot of weeds for them to hide and ambush prey, although I am adding some rock piles and sunken brush piles which may help. Can't seem to get lily pads or anything growing - probably due to geese eating them and also murky water sometimes after runoff. I have fertilized and limed per this website.

Have not found a hatchery that has chain pickerel, so I am probably going to catch full size ones from a nearby pond.

If you catch any from the nearby pond can we see a picture or two? I've never seen one in person.

Welcome to the forum, oldsconv.

When considering managment you also have to consider what has taken place on those public waters. It is possible that other people have used these waters and taken fish out of them. Increasing harvest, which helps keep stunting down, as we all know. A private pond might need to be more extensively managed than a public one.

oldsconv, as ewest said, we have a 4-acre pond with 20 species of catable fish. LMB, SMB, HSB, white bass, rock bass, BG, HBG, pumpkinseeds, GSF, WC, BC, CC, walleye, sauger, saugeye, freshwater drum, goldeyes, white suckers, shorthead redhorse and sterile grass carp. Out of all these species, only BG sucessfully reproduce. It's very simple, big fish eat little fish. It doesn't take a LMB to eat fry, BG can do the job just as well.

Our lake was started in 2000 so we have some history to refer to. The most important dynamic in our lake is the ability of the various species to compete for forage. Grass carp don't have any competition for forage so they do well. The CC, LMB and SMB are the winners amoung the large predators while the HBG are the winners amoung the pan fish.

Except for the BG, all of the other species will eventually die out. For me, this is good. I can constantly adjust the species competition of our lake any way I want. For example, it is often said that LMB will outcompete SMB in a small lake. Not in our lake. Since neither species reproduce, it comes down to what I want to restock. I restock SMB with very few LMB so SMB dominate in our lake.

The use of non-breeding species has great potential in our small lakes. Think of what we have done with trout, CC and HSB. Just expand this thinking a bit and you have it.

Hey, Norm - long time, no see. Question:



Is the reason LMB can't reproduce because of the intense predation/competition going on? It seems that if BG have suitable spawning substrate, LMB should too. Now the LMB having essentially zero recruitment (in such a busy pond), I can understand.

I have thought seriously about adding Hybrid striped bass that I absolutely love to catch and release. They will not reproduce and will grow in the 12- 20 pound range. Just 5 or 6 in my 3 acre pond that is heavily covered with cover. My pond is still filling and stocked with small bass, bluegills, and fathead minnows, so maybe in 2 or 3 years I will try this.

Norm -

Any other species under consideration? I really enjoy hearing about your incredibly diverse pond.

theo, it's good to be back. Yes, it's the heavy predation that takes out all of the LMB young. I see lots of them reach the two inch range but then they disappear. I've only found one LMB and 3 SMB that reached 8 inches. Other than BG, three years ago, we had some GSF/pumpkinseed hybrids.

If someone wants to do something like this, it's fairly simple. It's no different than managing an aquarium which is what we're really doing anyhow. You need a source of food. That can be pellets, a panfish or just the young of the predators. Then you need to control the population just like you would do in an aquarium. I like non-breeding species because it is so easy to control their numbers.

In our lake, I like to have about 3 SMB to 1 LMB. With natural reproduction, the LMB would quickly dominate. Since we have such heavy predation, neither species reproduces. So I just stock 3 SMB for every LMB. We commonly do this sort of thing with HSB, trout and CC. I just expand this concept to other species.

Weissguy, just the way the world works, we will eventually get black bullheads. We have a hatchery permit. For whatever reason, I see that we have a permit for PALLID STURGEON, an endangered species. I don't think I want to try and see if they really mean it. I would like to have a paddlefish or two and hopefully will pull that off one of these days.

The yellow perch have probably been eliminated by predation and we only catch 1-2 GSF a year. I'll slowly let the CC die out so that we only have a dozen or so in the lake. We only have a few sauger and saugeye and as long as we have walleye, I don't care about them. If we had chain pickeral in this area, I would certainly try them.

That's a pretty good testimonial to the fecundity of BG, Norm, that they are the only species that regularly has successful recruitment.

Norm-

Are you going to restock YP and CC or are you just waiting for them to dissolve out of the system? Have you ever thought about adding some rainbows or possibly Gar? A person back home tryed Burbot as a predator species. It eventully out competedd everything in the pond. Since none of the fish are reproducing, how did you figure the number per species you wanted to put in? A neighbor of mine back home is doing this same thing with the high diversity. Sorry for the twenty questions haha
thanks

My pond and my girl's pond will both be experiments in diverse stocking.

I plan on adding every indigenous creature that I can get my hands on. In fact I would add Alligators but Cindy doesn't want to because of the dogs. I assume the Cottonmouths will show up voluntarily.

I'll be looking for Chain Pickerel, Florida and/or Spotted Gar, Warmouth, and Bowfin* if I find that they are common in my area. Gambusia usually show up on their own around here but I won't add them since they work against diversity IMO. There are a bunch of interesting minnows and small Sunfish in south Georgia.

*The U.S. Geological Survey map shows the native range for Bowfin as all of Florida and most of Georgia, but the center of my county isn't included. Our property is with 5 miles of the indicated natural range.

http://www.bowfinanglers.com/science.html

GW you could have had this one. Greg could have dropped it off on his way home.

Looks like a good candidate as an addition to a crappie pond.

You are right Burger. Plus as an added attraction they do wonders for fishing gear.

I wish I could take her ewest! Got any Spotted Gar?

Yes in the oxbows. Funny thing on the occasions we have electro shocked the oxbows I don't recall ever shocking up a gar even though there are lots of them.

Hmpf, that's bad news about the electro shocking. Since GAR are hard to catch I was hoping I could thin the population by shocking and removing them if needed. Could I shoot them? The tend to hang around the surface don't they?

I know you can get bowfins from zetts fishery at Inwood west virginia and they ship them.

Thanks buzbait! Maybe they'll be able to help me with Gar also...

Norm, late last year I added quite a few paddlefish from 8"-18" to my typical LMB,BG,RES,CC,and amur pond of 3.5 acres. I will be monitering my pond to see what effect they have.Hopefully, in ten yrs. I'll be able to harvest them .

tjstubbs, if I can get them, I'd like to add 20-25 yellow perch every winter. They'd probably get eaten during the summer but I'd like to get their early spawn for forage. I add 1-2 CC every year just so that I don't loose them completely.

As for restocking other species, I have very good records of what I stocked and when. Then we keep good records of what we catch. Then I look at what the various species add to what we are doing. Then I do a "by gosh and by golly" evaluation of what I want to do. Finally, it's a matter of what I can get.

With most species, a dozen or so individuals a year is more than enough. With LMB, SMB, HSB, walleye, HBG, crappie and goldeyes, I'll add more. If I don't think we have enough, I'd add more. If I make a mistake, I just add or take out a few fish. It's kind of fun.

Bernie H., I'd love to get paddlefish. Osage fishery in Missioui seems to be out of them all the time. I'll keep trying as they would be an interesting addition.

Norm how did you make the deduction that the only fish in your pond that were able to reproduce and then survive predation were the bluegill? It seems to me that in a four acre lake at least some of the bass each year would survive. If you are correct then how do I know what fish in my pond are in need of stocking each year.

Norm I just read through your last statement again. What if you have fish that just won't bite? The reason I say this is I went fishing on my pond today and didn't catch a single fish.

james holt, unless we caught every fish in the lake, we can't be sure about what has successfully reproduced. I've had problems with my knees all of last summer but normally we have at least 3-4 groups a week fishing our lake. Each group will catch 50-100 fish so we're looking at a large percentage of the fish. Also we fin clip everything so we can tell what we stocked and the fish that we have sampled. We only let people fish from two places. Every so often, a friend and I fish other parts of the lake to see what is there. At the end of a summer, about half of the fish we catch have been caught before.

We use fathead minnows for bait which catch certain species. Every so often we will use worms, leeches, crawfish or frogs to catch other species.

Obviously, this isn't exact but Dave Willis has some of his students sample the lake every two years which adds to our knowledge.

The point of this is that we do a lot of sampling in many different ways. You'll find this in many posts. Keep track of what you are catching, fish many different ways and keep good records. In the long run, you will have a very good idea about what is happening in your lake.

Norm I hope your knees are better.

Norm I wonder if losing most what spawns each year is occuring in my pond as well. I have a very strong predator population with hsb and lmb being dominate. I know that some of the lmb are large enough to eat the year old hsb when we stock them because we see it happen. We also very rarely catch bass that are smaller than what we have already stocked. I have also noticed that the size of the bluegill we catch is also very large which makes me think that most of the bluegill spawn is being eaten. This year I am only going to stock forage species such as shiners and bluegill and try to get a better idea if the bass are having any of their young survive predation. It probably doesn't help that the water in the pond this winter is very clear and the predators can really see their prey. I just hope that I don't lose all of my shad to predation this winter before I can get the tilapia going again. I have seen the hsb chasing the shad twice this winter driving some of them into the shore. I think the tilapia really take a lot of the stress off of the rest of the forage when they are in the pond and limit the filamentous algae to almost nothing not to mention they are good to eat. Ewest if you are having to use blocking nets in order for the fish to reach a certian size before you release them is this happening in yours as well?

james wrote: "This year I am only going to stock forage species such as shiners and bluegill"

I have to say a resounding "yeah right!"

Sunil you know me too well and understand my problem. Can you refer me to the Pond Boss counseling program for stocking addiction. I am sure I need therapy. Its just that when I go to the fish farm to buy forage the other fish are just too pretty not to take home and after reading Norms statement about all of the predation going on in his pond I am sure all of my fish have been eaten and need to be restocked.

By the way my wife thinks I am an idiot but she loves me anyway.

I'll believe that when I see it.

James lots of our forage is eaten every year but we do have good recruitment of BG and RES and LMB. I use the blocking net mostly to augment the existing fish. We can't use tilapia as they are precluded by the state. Instead I raise (growout) small BG from 2 in to 5+ inches from March to Aug. (and their spawn/yoy) inside the net as needed to add forage. I also use the process to add LMB genetics (Flas , F-1 Tiger Bass or Northerns) by raising feed trained LMB from 8 in to 12+ inches the same way. I am thinking about raising HSB the same way as we have a lot of open deep water. That depends on the success of the TShad through this year.

James, after Sunil explains "the Pond Boss counseling program for stocking addiction", you may get the notion that it's some sort of Ponzi scheme, run by the most restocking-addicted PMs to bilk money from their less afflicted brethren and use it to feed their own addiction. But it's not - just send money. Follow Sunil's directions and you will be relieved of both your addiction and your funds.

Unfortunately, due to budget cuts (not that there ever was a budget), Pond Boss no longer offers counseling for those that have lost their way.

Oddly enough, those with such afflictions are encouraged to bend to their innermost demons (Fish Farmageddonitis), if and only if detailed reports, including pictures, are submitted to the forum.

Furthermore, it is highly encouraged that, where shear idiocy is involved, for each dollar spent on the pond(s), an equal or greater amount of dollars is spent on spousal interests including, but not limited to, horses and/or ponies, cruises, unnecessary vacations, multiple visits to the spa, and last but not least, circle hooks.

james holt, how big is your lake, what is in it now, what are your goals and how much time, effort and money do you plan on spending to manage it? What are you dissatisfied with now that you would like to correct?

Norm, while you may get some answers to your questions, james really needs tough love.

Norm my goal is to catch some type of fish each time I throw a hook into the water. I went fishing on my pond Saturday and didn't even get a bite.

James, have you considered Gams, and very tiny hooks?

Gw there is not a fish that I have not considered unless I didn't know it existed. However many of the pond owners have a much more diverse fishery than I poseess due mainly to availabilty of stock. I did just place an order for fry from Anderson fish farms.

james, can you answer the other questions? Will you be satisfied with stunted sunfish of some type?

Norm I think I am like most of the people on pond boss and would like to catch a few healthy fish when we go fishing with the chance of at least one big fish. This is a new pond in the fact that it wasn't completed until 2005 and didn't fill completely until June of 07. My pond is about ten acres now and when full about twelve acres. We get all of our rain at once and are now in the middle of a dry spell and so my pond is about a foot low. You may have seen all of the fires on the news. The water is very clear in the winter but responds well to fertilizer when the water temps go above sixty degrees in the spring. Generally the color after we fertilize turns green from the phytoplankton and then by the middle of the summer turns brown from all of the zooplankton. I have stocked feed trained bass, florida bass, channel catfish, hsb, coppernose bluegill, native bluegill, black crappie, redears, golden shiners, and fatheads. In addition I also have a healthy threadfin shad population and bullheads both of which I did not stock. I also stock tilapia in the spring. I have three feeders that go off twice a day when the water is above sixty degrees. My main goal this year is to feed my predators and try to grow them to a size that is fun to catch.

James, keep in mind that I'm an amateur from a totally different part of the country. Two things strike me from your description of your lake. The first is your feeding of your fish. If they're taking pellets, they might not want any other food. Are you feeding now? Are the fish taking the pellets.

The second thing I notice is the brown water in the summer. Is this really zooplanton? Might this be tannen instead? I spent one winter at Cedar Key and was able to electrofish with a Florida fisheries crew out of Lake City. We surveyed a large lake south of Gainesville. I don't remember its name but it was almost dead. Heavy rains had brought in large amounts of tannen which had absorbed all of the oxygen. We did get one 13 pound LMB but very little else.

Do you have any fish left in your lake or might you have lost all of them? Members from the SE can advise you better than I. I suggest you have your lake electrofished to see what you really have.

Norm I am pretty sure it is Zooplankton because I had a biologist test the water and that is what he told me it was. Right now I am feeding once a day for five seconds and the feeding is sporadic I think just due to the water temps. being in the forties. Here are some recent pictures of my boat ramp that is being built in an already existing pond full of water

Norm wrote: "Do you have any fish left in your lake or might you have lost all of them?"

If there were ever words that could push a guy over the edge!

I wonder how many fish suppliers james contacted after reading that question!

Sunil that was only after James first panicked and sprained his ankle running down to the pond to look for live fish. Then he started calling hatcheries. - -

Norm we need to post some pics of a normal green early stage plankton bloom , a later brown zooplankton bloom and brown tannic water so all can recognize them.

Ewest it's funny you said that about the sprained ankle I just sprained my left ankle playing basketball.

ewest, good idea. I look at his lake and can't imagine why he isn't catching fish all the time. Someone from the SE needs to jump in here.

james, DaveD didn't want you to know, but you may be able to get some white sturgeon for your pond!

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=106376#Post106376