So you have the opportunity to build a 3-5 acre pond, (once your lucky enough to get a certain earth mover scheduled)

How many would forego stocking bass and go only with HSB as the main fish, with the required BG, etc for forage and fun?

What part of the country are you from, Mike?

Mike, I'm starting to like that idea more and more. Every year, I probably toss 40 small lmb on the bank.

Bruce, I'm probably 30 miles north of Dave, maybe one hour(ish) due west of B. Lusk This weekend I had a very interesting conversation with a retired Tx PW biologist who did either his masters or Phd thesis on LMB with a noticed decrease in catchability of LMB in all waters. Believed it was a hereditary issue, some fish are easy to catch, some are not.

He does not do anything with fresh water anymore, but was fascinating to speak with.

Because of my potentially limited size, I'm really trying to come up with a reason why I should include any LMB in the equation.

I've never included LMB in the equation in any of my ponds.

Remeber the following absolute truth: You can always add fish later.

What's the worst that can happen if you don't include LMB originally? You might have to invest a few hundred bucks in adult fish to catch up.

One thing I'd make absolutely certain of is that the HSB had plenty of opportunity for predation. i.e. little or no cover, and limited vegetation.

You may also have to embark on a serious bluegill control program by angling, trapping, and/or seining.

What about contacting Lusk, or Overton, or Grimes and try to add in some all-female LMB? That way you could grow a few absolute trophy specimens, not have to worry about overpopulation or stunting of LMB, and keep the HSB as the dominant predator?

Lots to think about. I'm certainly not saying that people shouldn't stock LMB. They're an incredible fish, but I'm always intrigued by people who might try to make a go without 'em.

Mike, I definitely would forego stocking LMB and go with only HSB as the main predator fish, and have done so in one of our small ponds, with majority of emphasis on HSB also in our main pond.

As far as forage is concerned, I would not stock BG at all and would rely on tilapia in season, along with an aggressive high protein feeding program, which we do.
I would stock RES and male only BG for the fun of fishing.

If female only LMB is considered be extremely careful in determining sex as there seems to be some difference of opinion in sexual criteria, unless milt or eggs determined by a professional fisheries biologist.

I strongly agree with Bruce to have a vegetation control process in place with limited structure/cover. If you do elect to stock LMB, limited cover will enable HSB to control over population problems of stunted bass.

In your area you should have excellent water quality for HSB.

If I were interested in a HSB-only predation pond, I would consider using Golden Shiners as the primary forage (in addition to pellet feeding, of course). As george proposes, a breeding population of RES would probably be safe from stunting with HSB as the only predator.

That being said, I like my LMB, enjoy catching them, and don't at all mind eating some of them when removal is necessary.

Valid points by all above. Mike what you stock depends on your goals and the water you have. There is no perfect solution - only the one that works for your goals and pond.

Mike there is a ton of info here on the catachability issue. It includes the genetics issue (Fla LMB vs Noth LMB ) and an overview of a conversation with the TPWD fisheries scientist who did the studies. That was TPWD's position for years but now they are not so sure as the data only involved sub 2 year old fish (feeding patterns change for a host of reasons including age and competition). Here are 2 to look over http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post58263 - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=57807&fpart=1 The mag also has an article on the issue. PB MAR - APR 06 - LARGEMOUTH BASS ANGLING AND CATCHABILITY. D.Willis & B.Cody look into how angler catches can monitor your LMB, and what affects angling has on their catchability.

George you have several ponds and one with LMB - Mike only has one pond so his choice is from a different perspective.

If you want to catch and eat fish then a BG/LMB pond will fit the bill (as Theo notes). If you don't want to work on keeping a pond balanced (to meet your goals) then there are a number of fish to avoid (most all that reproduce in more than minimal numbers). The factor (either negative or positive depending on goals) with HSB and/or HBG is they result in a put and take fishery. It must be restocked and unless you use adult fish to do so there can be times with only small fish. They can be mixed with other fish species as noted above but that again involves mgt work to track what is happening and adjusting as needed.

Our goal is to empower people make the best choice for THEIR SITUATION through the access to info and knowledge . As Lusk suggests learn all you can about each species , your water and your goals and then decide. Let us know how we can help by asking questions.

Perspective or not – it is common knowledge that LMB in small ponds require intensive management and become hook shy under even reasonable fishing pressure.

Mike clearly states his LMB concerns and they were addressed – his 3-5 acre pond does offer more opportunity for diversity than with smaller ponds.

I advised him with professional credentials as to his geographic location having optimum alkalinity derived from carbonate/gypsum outcrops that are favorable for HSB culture.

I strongly believe that with limited structure and maximum aquatic vegetation control, our HSB in main pond have controlled overpopulation of LMB spawn.
LMB less than 12 inches are rarely caught in main pond.

I believe the advise from Bruce and my shared experience, will serve him well to approach structure and cover carefully.
As Bruce stated, you can always add LMB but you can’t take them out easily.

Initial stocking of fingerling HSB are very inexpensive in a new pond without fear of predation.
I personally prefer a “put and take” fishery rather than a fishery that I spend more time managing than fishing.

I'm not sure that LMB hook shyness inevitably happens everywhere, george, but it is certainly quite common. Differences in opinion on the matter could result from not only different responses from different LMB in different ponds, but on what the definition of "reasonable fishing pressure" is.


That makes perfect sense, george, and I can't remember seeing any discussion (or better yet, an article or study) about it. Anyone (hey, Eric) know the literature history on HSB predation and control of small YOY LMB? Interesting angle, and another reason for me to continue annual seine surveys to help track small LMB numbers wrt HSB population that will vary over time, to see if I can spot a correlation.

Thanks for mentioning that idea, george.

EVERYONE, thanks for your informative replies! The great thing about this forum is it's ability to push creative thinking in multiple avenues, which is something I definitely need.

I really like the idea of purchasing adult LMB later depending on how the pond is progressing.

A second question concerns the addition of bluegill. From the responses, it seems as HSB do not act similar to LMB as being prolific predators to keep the BG population under control? I plan on feeding the HSB, and would like to have an ample population of BG for kids.

A put and take pond is fine for the HSB, but would it be necessary for the BG as well by including males only? I don't want to overun the pond with BG if the HSB population cannot control it.

I suppose BG control could be controlled by waiting and adding BG and adult LMB later, using other forage fish and pellet feeding for the HSB.

Thanks for info.

Theo, I do not question that LMB may behave differently in different parts of the country but I have fished for LMB from early as early age as I can remember – and I’m twice as old as most members of this forum and three times as old as a few – older than dirt...

I do believe however that the larger the pond, the less the pressure and less hook shy bass.

I won’t even try to recount the number of LMB I have caught from most major reservoirs in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana, but I’m just a beginner on ponds.
I do know that Lake Fork Texas is probably the most popular LMB lake in the country and in the early 80’s a 100 fish day was common. This weekend on the lake you can most likely walk from boat to boat, with intense fishing pressure.
The Lone Star “Share A Lunker” program (13#’s or better) records have declined dramatically from Lake Fork. (My neighbor is hooking his boat up as we speak – the LMB are pre-spawn and headed for the shallows).
Strict slot limits and catch and release have fostered giant LMB, but have been caught so many times that new lures are developed continually to catch tem.

Back to ponds – I love to fish for LMB with top water flies/lures but get hook shy in a hurry – one pet LMB was caught three times on consecutive days and never a strike from that brush pile again

Young hungry LMB are easy to catch but get educated in a hurry.
I know you are seeking technical documentation, but I trust anecdotal PB reports above much of the flawed scientific research I have run across.

george, if having to change lures is in the definition of hook shyness, I see it too. And my bass don't get a lot of fishing pressure wrt the BG and CC.

Mike:

By virtually all reports, HSB are not as effective a predator on BG as LMB are. Their mouths are smaller, they don't relate to structure (that BG can hide in) as well as LMB do, and there aren't thousands of little HSB around every Spring trying to eat hundreds of thousands of little BG.

HSB predation on BG approaches that of LMB in ponds with very little structure and plant cover.

HBG may well be a better choice with HSB for those reasons. IMHO, just as you can always add LMB later to take over from the HSB, you can stock adult BG later to replace the HBG (not quite as cleanly, as they may be some HBGxBG backcrosses, but IME BG reproduction will overwhelm the comparatively small numbers of offspring produced by HBG).

BG (especially large BG 5 + in.) are a much bigger predator of fry/yoy LMB than are HSB or LMB. I would think that is the reason George doesn't have excess LMB. I would think that LMB are the next biggest consumer of small LMB with HSB coming in third. IMO HSB will not control BG populations at normal stocking #s. When feeding is factored in along with BG reproduction dynamics I would expect the BG population to expand exponentially over time if HSB are the only other fish stocked.

I do think HSB can work for Mike but there are other options depending on his goals. HSB , HBG and FH would work as a put and take fishery. BG/LMB can also work. Both require mgt. - just a different type.

I don’t know anything about HBG but Eric and Theo’s suggestion sounds like something to seriously consider for Mike’s kid fishing.
Good luck Mike – see what you let yourself in for?

Guys I will try to find some info on HSB as predators wrt BG and LMB and vice-versa. Will post what I find.

Here is some info and interesting points but the study was only for 2 years and on smaller HSB.

North American Journal of Fisheries Management
Fish Community Response to Hybrid Striped Bass Introduction in Small Warmwater Impoundments
J. Wesley Neal*, Richard L. Noble, and James A. Rice



Our results revealed that hybrid striped bass predation on fish was strongly size-specific in the main study pond. Hybrid striped bass utilized the centrarchid prey base, but almost exclusively consumed larval bluegills, redear sunfish, and black crappies less than 15 mm TL. Hybrid striped bass have been shown to select for the smallest prey present and against the largest prey present in controlled small-pool experiments (Phillips 1986), but these experiments did not use larval prey. Rather, the smallest bluegill prey were 45 mm in fork length (FL), and the body depth of the smallest prey was 64% as wide as the hybrid striped bass mouth width. Because only three prey items larger than 45 mm TL were found in hybrid striped bass stomachs in our study, it suggests that the preferred centrarchid prey size may be smaller. The presence of larger fish prey in largemouth bass stomachs and in summer seine samples indicated that larger prey were available to hybrid striped bass, but they did not regularly consume these larger prey.

We have no evidence to suggest that hybrid striped bass predation can eliminate all larval fish before they can recruit; our seine samples showed many fish surviving to larger sizes. Thus, total recruitment failure does not appear to be a problem with hybrid striped bass introduction, and adult sunfish and crappies should be available to spawn each season. Because mortality of hybrid striped bass is 33–58% per year (Neal et al. 1999), any over-exploitation of prey populations can be remedied by cessation of hybrid striped bass stocking. (EW note same for under-exploitation by adding HSB)
In addition, bioenergetics modeling has suggested that largemouth bass consume fewer fish prey by weight than do hybrids of equal biomass because of lower activity requirements (Neal 1996).
Results from this study suggest hybrid striped bass may have consumed enough small black crappies to prevent overpopulation without eliminating recruitment. However, further study is warranted using a larger number of ponds and differing conditions. If these results can be replicated, enhancing crappie fisheries while simultaneously creating a hybrid striped bass fisheries would be a favorable alternative to complete pond reclamation. ( EWest note ** This is further born out by the recent SEP article on creating good crappie ponds by using TShad , Crappie and HSB)The establishment of successful hybrid striped bass fisheries in reservoirs requires an abundant clupeid prey base (Bailey 1975; Guier and Harris 1982; Moss and Lawson 1985), and the same has been proposed for small impoundments. Ebert et al. (1988) demonstrated that hybrid striped bass could be successfully stocked in a smaller impoundment (169.7 ha) containing gizzard shad Dorosoma cepedianum but found the abundant sunfish and crappies were not preferred diet items of the hybrid. Neal et al. (1999) demonstrated that hybrids could survive in farm ponds with only a centrarchid prey base, although growth rates were lower than those observed in systems with clupeid prey. The impacts of hybrid striped bass introduction into farm ponds containing clupeids are unknown. If hybrid striped bass select clupeids first, then centrarchid prey may grow to invulnerable sizes, thus reducing the management utility of hybrid striped bass for centrarchids in these situations. Of course, hybrid striped bass could provide additional predatory pressure to overabundant shad populations as well. Further research should address these issues.

Eric and TG, thanks for the info.

One quick question concerning HBG which I hate to ask, but...HBG do not spawn I guess from the put and take reference, or spawn in much lower numbers (hence the term hybrid)? I never have paid too much attention to the nuances of BG v. HBG V. redear etc, I figured with enough LMB it would work itself out both ways. What is the advantage of the Redear?

I've followed all the HSB threads with great interest, but am behind the learning curve on BG. My plan was to stock HSB, grow them a season and maybe add some LMB(now adult size LMB) to increase the variety, always maintaining a level of BG for forage. But as the BG are prolific spawners, perhaps the HBG is a better choice to co-exist with the HSB, and take TG's advice and add adult BG later.

Mike start by reading this link. It is a bit dated and new info has changed some of it but the basics are right. HBG as hybrids have pluses and minus - nothing new to that however. The negative is the offspring which the HSB and the adult HBG should control. There are 2 pluses and one is very good for your plan. One is they have a fast initial growth rate (big mouth) but the biggest plus is there aggressive nature. They are easy to catch (great for kids) and they eat pellets well.

http://msucares.com/wildfish/fisheries/farmpond/building/stocking4.html

We have enough info here on hybrid sunfish to fill a book but start with that link and we can go from there. In the link don't worry about the statement to not stock with other fish it is no longer followed.

Interesting article Eric.

I am in the very early learning/investigating stage re HSB in Southern farm ponds and am trying to ascertain their effectiveness as a predator on bluegill. In other words, can they effectively control rolling spawns in a warm water environment?

I wonder about the 33-58% mortality rate that they claim and do realize that they are talking about small HSB that are preying on larval centarchids (bluegill). If that's true, then HSB would be a total financial bust for most of us. Of course, they did not identify the reasons for the mortality rate.

Clupeids? I had to look that one up. Not much relevance there to most of us. We're not going to stock Northern Sea food fish like Menhaden or Herring. Or am I wrong or did I misinterpret?

I'm liking the idea of HSB (Wipers to Bruce) as a solution to LMB overspawning but still haven't figured out their role in a balanced body of water. Of course, balance changes yearly no matter what we do.

My question is what constitutes a viable prey fish for HSB in a North Texas farm pond? I don't like Gizzard Shad and Threadfin mortality during our low temperatures makes them suspect as a viable(sustainable) prey.

How about Golden Shiners?
-Limited spawning, once a year.
-Torpedo-form, a better match for HSB mouth size than bream.
-Max out at 10"-12", much smaller than GShad. Maybe relatively few HSB would get big enough to eat the largest Shiners, but it's better than having 2 pound Shad around immune to predation.

We have a whole lot of RES discussion here. If you put on your hip boots and wade through the humorous threads showing them biting off fingers, saving schools of small fish from barracuda, and other factually challenged activities, you should see the kind of RES Pros and Cons discussed below.

RES get bigger than any other Lepomis species or hybrid, including BG and HBG. They spawn only once per year, so they have much, much lower potential to overpopulate and stunt than BG do (many experienced PMs have stated they have never seen a stunted RES pond). They do produce notably more offspring than HBG, but since they breed true, you don't need to 1) restock later or 2) wonder what weird Nth generation of HBG offspring you might end up having in the pond. They eat snails, a vector for many fish parasites in ponds, thereby (greatly) reducing the incidence of grubs, etc. in our fish. They are a little longer for a given weight than BG, so HSB might find it slightly easier to swallow RES and lower their recruitment rate.

Virtually no RES is born with an inclination to eat pelleted fish food; you can train them to do so, but I don't think anyone is commercially doing so. An outgrowth of the no-pellet-feeding Con is that they are usually harder to find and higher priced than BG/HBG. They tend to eat farther down in the water than BG/HBG, so they may be harder to catch for many less experienced anglers (although fair direct comparisons are hard to come by, since they are usually outnumbered by BG in ponds due to their lower fecundity).

I believe Bruce has more experience and knowledge about HSB predation and mortality rate than anyone on the forum and would seek his response.
I know that mortality has been discussed on previous HSB threads but links cannot be accessed on new server.

I attempted to validate the 33–58% per year (Neal et al. 1999) % mortality rate but could not access the cited paper (“The article you have requested is available via Journal Subscription, or Article Purchase”), so why should we accept this number without further qualification?
I see no mention of common aeration practices mentioned in the paper, which IMO has a dramatic effect on HSB survival.
Eric, can you elaborate?

I can live with these mortality numbers due to maintaining a “put and take” fishery by an annual stocking “ladder” of large HSB.
In main ~2 acre pond, we presently catch at least one or more 4-5 # class HSB each outing – I can live with that!!!!

I am approaching our second year with a HSB/BG pond and answers to HSB controlling BG numbers are inconclusive at this time.
Since there is no structure or aquatic vegetation in this pond, I am assuming cold water temps have driven small BG from the shallow bank area into deeper warm water for a HSB banquet.
2-3# class HSB are in this un-aerated ¼ acre pond but larger sizes maybe transferred from 2 acre main pond this spring if small surviving BG numbers remain high.

Regardless of the literature citing specific temp feeding numbers, our HSB feed all winter long with rising temps trends above 45 degrees.



I am not concerned about adequate forage for HSB as stated in the paper, since a high protein-feeding program is in place and a commonly accepted practice.

Dave and George I have to keep reminding myself (now you guys) that when I do research that the studies have to be read very carefully and to not try to extrapolate to much from them. That is what frustrates all of us.

The same basic data collected in the Neal studies (3 papers I think from the same data) is from ponds in NC. The HSB (2 sizes less than a pound IIRC) were stocked into existing ponds with adult Fish (LMB , BC , GShad, and BG/RES/PS and others). That alone should discount the mort #s. They also had water quality problems. Two years of data. Excellent peer reviewed studies they are not wrong just, like all studies limited to the question being researched (can you put advanced fingerling HSB into existing ponds with fish and what will the results be).

Forget the GShad. They were included in the study because they were a good source of food for adult fish. TShad or GShiners would be better. Dave Shad are also Clupeids. The clupeids (clupeidae , herrings - GShad , TShad, blueback herring , alewife and are all are open water fish - pelagic) just like the HSB ( right niche) and have outstanding value as forage for predator fish (high protein and lipids , right size and shape and high #s).

I have edited the prior post (note red) the points from the study I though interesting for this thread. Take a look.

So possibly, the answer being maybe HBG as a secondary forage fish and kids fish, with pellets being primary feed for the HSB, and some RES for additional balance. Later on, in PB famous terminology, "it depends", maybe some adult LMB and BG for additional variety.

Ok, it's planned, now it just has to be dug.

George, is your larger pond aerated?

Mike, main 2 acre pond aerated with three bottom membrane diffusers, as advised by Bill Cody and Todd Overton.

Thanks George, Todd will be actively involved in the process.

I really appreciate everyone's (DD, TG, Bruce, George, Eric) participation in this thread, ya'lls knowledge makes it easier for us novices.

Mike, I've been thinking about the possibility of later using white (sand) bass as a secondary tool to clobber bluegill. Although there is some documentation about them spawning on wind swept rocky shores, I believe they would be about as good as LMB without the chance of overspawning.

I don't know of any place to get them from a hatchery but they are fairly plentiful in area lakes. I know of nobody who has tried this combination but I think I might like it.

Eric, as usual, it all depends and each body of water is different.

The put and take aspect of the HSB is what, I think, might make a lot of people shy away from them. I'm referring to the expense of stocking over wintered HSB.

Sorry to come in on the hind-end of this thread.

This is a great thread, sustained both by theory and by experience from many members, in response to a very good question by Mr. Holliday.

We should be aware that largemouth bass and bluegill may find a way into the equation over time, regardless of Holliday's intentions. With this possible natural introduction of fish being likely in my opinion, maybe Mr. Holliday should go ahead and stock LMBs and bluegill from the start.

Here are some ideas:
Stocked all at same time

100 per acre combined HSBs and feed-trained LMBs at about the same size, 6"-8". Probably best to keep close to 50/50 mix of LMBs and HSBs.

500 3"-4" coppernose bluegill per acre
100 3"-4" redear sunfish per acre
10 lbs golden shiners per acre
20 lbs tilapia per acre every spring
2-3 grass carp per acre for weed control

Feed high protein pellets from 2-3 feeders/locations, aerate with bottom diffusers, control submerged vegetation, harvest lmbs down the road that are obviously not pellet trained, restock HSBs and feedtrained LMBs as needed to keep new age classes growing. Instead of tossing small LMBs on the bank when you intend to harvest, just cut their caudal fin off and toss them back in the water for easy LMB forage.

Todd - might work well. It would mean a good amount of mgt (which I think will be required no matter the plan) but which Mike may not want. The question I have is will it produce the amount of easy to catch BG (kids fishing) Mike noted. Might add to the plan periodic stocking of 4-6in pellet trained CNBG to augment the kids fishing point.

Todd: Nice to have you onboard with this now, it will save some discussion later. Why add the LMB artificially if you believe they will naturally occur? Second question relates to the catchablity issue of LMB, do you believe the pellet trained LMB do not exhibit as much hook shyness? If the LMB are more prone to develop hook shyness, what about decreasing the LMB % and increasing the HSB? Does that option upset the balance too much? Or do pellet trained fish appear easier to catch overall?

I'm open to all scenarios, just curious as to why the initial stocking would include equal %. Thanks for weighing in!

Eric, the mgt issue won't be a big deal, I think it will add to the overall family appeal of the pond. With my 3 boys, you can never have too much going on outside. I will pay money to see my wife start cutting off fins, but she'll certainly catch more than I will.

Thanks for more good questions. Artificially stocked LMB would be feed-trained, but naturally introduced LMB would not be feed-trained. So you can almost guarantee good growth rates for trained LMBs, but not for natural stocks. I would suggest the 50/50 ratio because I've seen it work well in the past. Take care to not stock too few feed-trained LMBs, for they might go off feed. Feed-trained LMB juveniles will feed on pellets in a school. Stock too few and for some reason they don't feel the competitive heat and will probably go off feed. I've had good results with 50+ feed-trained LMB per acre, but they must be at least 6" in size for best results. A competitive school of HSBs will also help to keep LMBs on feed when they are introduced.

In my experience, the feed-trained LMBs do not exhibit hook-shyness to the extend of their untrained relatives. I've seen them caught one after another, years after the original stocking, but I've also seen them shut off. It's still fishing, but feed-trained LMBs will give you better fishing in general. Some degree of hook-shyness should not disuade you from stocking LMBs anyway, especially since you will need them to control sunfish numbers.

I like growing and catching HSBs more than LMBs, but I realize the need to have these big-mouth predators for sunfish control. If you are going to have LMBs, why not grow some fat ones.

With high protein pellets AND a natural food base you should observe stellar growth rates.

I want to make it clear that my ideas and recommendations are not intended to be the final word or final post of this thread, even though I joined the thread a bit late. I am here to learn just like the rest of us, so I want to know what everyone thinks about Mike's plan. After all, I expect to get his pond and fish results posted on the forum in the future.

Excellent info Todd, thanks!