I have a 3/4 acre pond, 10 ft deep, built Mar 2006, filled slowly until Jan 2007 when full. Recently stocked with 500 CNBG (1-3") and 150 RES (1-3") in Oct 2007. Have been feeding a very small pellet feed since then. Been noticeing some larger "splashes" in the 4-6 ft water area as feed floats out. Decided to finally fish with small hooks/worms yesterday, and caught these (actually caught two more that were about 1/2 this size)

What type of fish are these, and should I be concerned ? Plan on adding 75 LMB in June next year, so don't want anything to disrupt CNBG growth.

Fish 1


Fish 2

Those are green sunfish. Any chance your fish guy didn't have a pure supply?

These would be way too big to have been just put in 1 month ago. All of those were real little. I got my fish from Overton Fisheries, and none in the bag were noticeably larger than the others. I figure they came in from birds/ducks feet. There are no streams or lake overflows nearby. My pond has high banks so it gets no run-off. I top it off with well-water or it catches rain water.

Yeah, you're right. If they came from Overton I guarantee there weren't any unwanted tag-a-longs.

Green sunfish show up everywhere, and I'm still not entirely comfortable with the explanations that I regularly hear. Very interesting, and why does it always seem to be greenies and not some other fish showing up unexpectedly?

Should I not release the ones I catch, or will the 500 CNBG overrun these guys ? Or just accept that even if I get rid of these few, that more will appear in the future...afterall...these got here.

FWIW, our general consensus on GSF is that they are either a manageable problem or a non-problem. Worst case with GSF would be a pond where they have been the only (or the far-and-way dominant) species for some time, and have taken up virtually all the pond's available biomass with little stunted Greenies. One can manange one's way out of even that scenario successfully (without renovating).

In your case, they have a year (at most) head start on your CNBG. The Coppernose will out reproduce them, the bass will eat them (first, probably, since they are slenderer than CNBG), and, for your own personal information, they taste just like BG. Some of our PMs here operate or strive for trophy GSF ponds, and they wouldn't consider them any kind of problem.

P.S. Check out some of the threads on GSF (looking under "Jeff has a pond" would be a good start) and that should help you decide whether or not to pursue your GSF with extreme prejudice.

P.P.S. What are your management goals for the pond?

Goals are to have a good crop of 3-5 lb LMB, decent size CNBG for kids catch/release, and want to add approx 25 6-8" HSB next Oct. Not striving to create any "trophy" breed of fish, just want it to be fun w/o making it a science project: challenge of hunting LMB and the fun of quick catch CNBG. I have lots of structure/hiding spots in pond. FHM have already reproduced since Oct.

I bet you end up with larger GSF that are also fun for the kids to catch (and maybe not release).

For some reason I keep thinking "hybrid swarm" when I read this thread.

As a general matter I agree but note the following. Stocking any type of fingerling fish into a pond with adult GSF (which those are) is not a good idea. That includes BG or LMB or RES. While the BG can out-reproduce GSF the first BG have to survive in numbers high enough to establish a GROWING population and within the carrying capacity of the pond. That is far from assured when GSF are there ahead of time as in a year they can reach near carrying capacity of the pond. The idea that BG can easily take over is IMO an incorrect assumption. There is a good bit of data where that did not occur and GSF remained the dominant population and in fact kept BG numbers very low and suppressed LMB reproduction to almost 0. I would suggest you take out all the GSF you can and add some 4-5in CNBG in the spring (30). Keep in mind that in a crowded environ with BG and GSF #s out of balance you may get HBG (BG X GSF) with their pluses and minuses. There is a sound biological basis for negative attitude of fisheries scientists and pond managers toward GSF (stunting , swarming and predation) as a general proposition. GSF Association or not the truth of the GSF swarm is a fact in many locations. Truth is an absolute defense.



We chose adult largemouth bass and

green sunfish as predators because these are known

predators of fingerling largemouth bass (Carlander

1977).



Observers noted that both green sunfish and

adult largemouth bass preyed on the stocked fingerlings,

as anticipated. Predators were typically

very aggressive and often actively attacked

stocked fish. Fish stocked without habituation appeared

disoriented upon release and were often

eaten within minutes of release.


FWIW in this series of AFS studies predation up to 75%+ in 24 hours of the stocked small fingerling LMB was observed.

If archer has good numbers of GSF could he consider adding adult LMB now? Even if it was a small number of adult LMB wouldn't they spawn this spring eliminating the need to buy fingerling LMB later? I'm thinking that normally you need to wait for the forage to develop before adding LMB, but in this case the forage seems to be present already.

GW as Theo noted there are ways to manage through the situation. One way is to keep adding adult BG and some adult LMB. Adding adult LMB now is an option but not an easy one to gauge. Any option has its risk especially where the current status of the population of GSF is unknown. The 2 big unknowns in adding adult LMB now are the effective forage available for the LMB over the next 2-3 years and their ability to successfully reproduce (meaning to establish offspring to adulthood) in the presence of a GSF swarm (this would apply to a BG swarm as well).

The ability of a species to dominate a system is not widely written about but is a proven fact. BG and GSF can cause LMB to abandon all attempts to reproduce. GShad have been noted to suppress all other fish activity in a system including feeding and reproduction. LMB can stunt and wipe out all other species. There are other examples also. Such is not a typical event in large water bodies (so not much emphasis is found in the written materials) but IMO becomes a higher risk the smaller the water body.

Archer,

Your problem may not be as bad as you think. Greenies are active feeders and good biters, so you may only have a few in there making you think it's a bunch. Keep catching them and throwing them out, and I bet you will soon get a feel for how many you have.

Good luck!

Is there anyway to determine an approx GSF count ? It took about 1 hr to catch 4 fish. I see hundreds of small, small fish in the shallows which I believe are new FHM. If I had a large population of GSF wouldn't most of the baby FHM be gone ? It may sound cruel, but I could eliminate all the fish and start over. I am only in for about $350 for CNBG, RES, and FHM. I would rather start over now than after LMB/HSB are added. It would get expensive selectively adding larger CNBG or LMB, and for a newbie the balancing act would be tough. Also, if the LMB do not spawn, then whats the point !!!

Appreciate everyones thoughts, and please continue to debate.

I would keep fishing and taking them out. I would also buy an inexpensive fish trap and sort out the GSF. That should be enough. Adult BG are not that much more than 2in stockers. 4-5 in adult CNBG should be no more than $1.00 each. Get Todd to bring 30 mixed adults when he brings the LMB.

Maybe It's just me but if I found green sunfish in any of my ponds I'd first get so depressed I'd have to take antidepressants and then drain and rotenone the pond! I hate those little *&^%$.

But then I'm not fond of the bluegill green sunfish hybrid monstrosities either.

I've never seen a fish pond with either one that impressed me much. All the ones with green sunfish were overrun with them.

I'll bet anything somebody planted some of those and thought they were doing you a favor. Finding out they screwed up they won't admit doing it. Or they were tresspassing, fishing with live bait, and dumped a bait bucket that had greenies in it.

Back in July of 2007 when we were getting lots of rain, I noticed 2 dead fish just behind the low spot of the bank due to high water. They were about the size of a thumb (2-2.5"). I was out here almost every day while building the house, and the pond is in the middle of other large acreage tracts -- mostly real tall grass, with only a few neighbors (none closer than 300 yds). There is one other pond nearby that a guy uses for watering his horses, never been stocked or fished. Living in S. Houston there are lots of bayous for drainage, and a constant supply of ducks, pelicans, and other birds at the pond.

I will fish every day after work and keep count of how many I catch in what period of time. Will take all that I catch over to the bayou/creek about 3 miles away (downstream).

HERESY!

Recent studies have indicated that GSF are the most intelligent of the sunfish and have mastered the art of optomizing public transportation.

Well I'm no expert, just a bean counter that practices pond mismanagement. Here are my observations on my pond (results may not be typical, your results may vary, check with your physician before beginning any GSF regiment):

The GSF did not reduce LMB reproduction. When I seined my pond I had huge numbers of LMB fry in fact they out numbered GSF fry significantly.

GSF alone were unable to provide enough forage to sustain LMB which resulted in stunted LMB.

After introduction of BG and RES the relative weight of LMB improved drastically (approx 20%) in a matter of only 4 months.

BG (not sure about the RES) had laid claim to a section of the pond for their nesting area which they seemed to agressivily defend.

It seems like you have an interesting situation. Given that your pond is new (the GSF were not a preexisting condition in the pond) and that you are confident that they did not get introduced with your stocking event then they are being introduced from a local source. Even if you kill all of the fish and start over its seems only logical to me that they will be reintroduced in the future.

But I'm not an expert so you should probably just disregard everything I just said anyway.

I was expecting this. Kind of like defending criminals isn't it?

I guess it depends if you are satisfied with this





or this.

Anybody else hear the crickets chirping?

Well in defense of our crimina, I mean our GSF, although they don't reach the size of BG they are teriffic fighters. And comparing that photo of a puny GSF is not very fair. Both DIEDs GSF and mine have exceeded 10 inches, DIED's have tipped the Boga at almost a pound and a quarter. Not too shabby IMHO. And did I mention that they fight like crazy????

DIED's GSF:

Jeff you described a LMB crowded pond (the other extreme from a GSF stunted pond). Archer's problem is , unlike yours, that there are adult GSF there ahead of his stocker fish. You had adult LMB to keep them in check. Absent adding adult LMB as noted by GW or other mgt methods the GSF may well dominate the pond and stunt. Both types of problems can be managed with work and time. As Bill often says "it all depends".

I would guess that the vast majority of time GSF are present in ponds , absent active mgt. the result is what Cecil and Bill (previous thread)described. You and DIED's situation is indeed the exception and not the general rule. In many parts of the country the major problem faced by pond owners is the dreaded GSF or BG swarm and stunting - it is a very real problem if unmanaged.

Cecil you rascal, you're heck bent on getting on the bad side of the GSA. I've given you every option to gracefully retreat from this disagreement. But now you've just gone too far.

I am now forced to formally request that you post your GPS location so that I can update the GSA's hit list data base. I'm sorry it had to come to this. You have been a great asset to this community. Oh and after posting the your GPS location please stand still for a day or two - everyone walking around willie-nillie makes the laser death ray hard to aim.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation, have a nice day!

I do, but then I have Tinnitus.

Point well taken.

I still would like Archer to find out the source of the GSF prior to killing all of the fish in his pond and then restocking. Otherwise a year from now he just might have the same situation as he does right now.

Are there any GSF in neighboring ponds?

I see some good advice here for Archer. Keep in mind that Archer is south of Houston, TX, and winter weather is mild enough in that region to allow for natural tilapia overwintering, just to give you an idea. With this in mind, I think an active feeding program with small pellets should be implemented and maintained to grow bluegill through the winter. Those small bluegill should reach the 4"+ mark by spring with active feeding program. Then they should spawn before green sunfish. In the meantime, trap/angle/remove greens to make this plan more effective.

If all goes well and Archer can verify a significant population of bluegill from observation and trapping/angling, then he should stock some feed-trained adult bass in the spring. At that time he should bump up feed size to supplement the feed-trained bass and possibly reduce pressure on bluegill.

If all goes sour by spring and Archer verifies that the greeny population is significant and difficult to control then he should consider the addition of adult coppernose bluegill, but still stocking the feed-trained adult largemouth bass.

Some hybridization between the two species may occur. I advise Archer to get familiar with the characteristics of the hybrids and be prepared to harvest them with the goal of enouraging pure genetics. On the other hand, a few hybrids may fit right in with Archer's pond goals and provide good fishing.

I see no need to panic. I won't spend time in defense of my pure supply of coppernose. I know 100% that he did not get greens from my hatchery.

I offer two distinct possibilities for the introduction of greens to Archer's pond.

1) Overflow into or out of Archer's pond.
2) Birds like herons, egrets, or osprey have moved live fish to the pond. We've watched with our naked eyes a good bit of this happen on our farm. We have regular osprey predation here and have witnessed the transplantation of fish. We've also seen herons fly off and drop fish in mid-air.

I don't believe the eggs on bird's feet stuff.

We've been in this business long enough to almost never be surprised or shocked by a natural occurence of this sort. Work with the hand that was dealt to you.

Thanks Todd and all. I have enough left over material from home build to make a fish trap, and will actively fish for the GSF. Would putting some fish food in a baggie with holes punched in be good for hanging inside the trap ? Other bait suggestions ?

I will educate myself on the characterisitcs of hybrids. Does anyone have any photos of young GSF and CNBG, say about 2-4" long? Most internet photos show full grown varieties, but I feel that I will have some of each about the same size early next year.

I can attest to Todd's fish stock quality. The fish shown at the top of the thread were way too big for being stocked in Oct., also found 2 dead fish in July (apprx 2-3"). The CNBG/RES I stocked had a very consistent size to them. I

I am at a loss for how the GSF got there. I remember my dad mentioning the eggs/bird feet thing a long time ago. I know for sure it was not inflow from other areas as my banks are 2+ ft higher than natural lay of the land. Even the low spot for drainage still has to flow down more than 1 ft to get to natural ground. So the live prey/bird theory might ring true.

I will update this post with catch rates and size to get expert advice on how to interpret that catch as a proxy for full population.

Todd, I will update you on my progress so we can plan appropriatley for next years LMB sizes.

Thanks to everyone.

what a great thread.
welcom archer. you've gotten fantastic advice and this discussion has raised some interesting ideas.

FWIW, here's my (speculative) 2c with what i might try if it were my pond. i am not an expert, just a guy w/ some really big GSF.

from the perspective of wanting healthy bass and BG......the pond is new, the GSF are young but very healthy looking. you have a free (and preferred) bass forage base already started. they obviously got there without you knowing and will likely show up anyway, so to work the situation, introduce a few (~10 or 20) adult female only bass right now to get started foraging on the GSF. not enought to decimate your new BG stocking, but enough to pressure the GSF. bass luv gsf. move ahead w/ some additional adult CNBG stocking and move ahead w/ additional bass stocking next year (both male and female). i'll bet you that within 2 years you'll hardly see any GSF left. the GSF population will not survive long term the pressures from bass predation and BG population growth. the few that survive will become trophy sized fish and add a nice dimension to yer pond. if yer pond is relatively clear and has fairly large spawning areas, hybridization shouldnt be a problem.

as for my bkg, i am currently managing a one acre pond w/ GSF as the top predator. My first generation spawn (from late summer 2006) are approaching 8-inches of hook slamming, line ripping, fat bodied fun. JHAP showed a pic of mommy on the previous page. a (uncontrollable) factor that helps my population mgmt (and probably JHAPs) is the annual loss of over 6 feet of water. i dont know of any pondmeisters here who would willingly use this as a mgmt tool, but it seems to benefit my sunfish only fishery. i believe in my case it works to concentrate the small fish forage (incl mosquito fish, GSF, BG, and RES fry and YOY). the stomachs of all of my adult fish that i've sampled throughout the year are practically bursting, plus i occassionally feed.

hey good luck archer, look forward to yer updates.

edited post to add pic references

archer these are some GSF examples ranging from about 1.5 inches to 10 inches. the pics of the 2.5 and 5 inch class fish were taken last May. These classes are now 5 and 8 inch, respectively. i'm excited cause the larger ones are taking on the body shape of the big fish, and by this time next year should be 10+inch lunkers (if all goes right).









someone else will need to help you w/ trap bait techniques. i have had great success fishing specifically for greenies by using small cheap flies with a chunk of worm (on a light fly fishing rig). they are more aggressive than the BG and RES and readily go after this type of presentation.

In my experience greens are easy to trap, even without bait. It wouldn't hurt to entice them with fish food wrapped up in panty hose.

Good advise, DIED. I like the female LMB idea. The sexing of LMB can be tricky this time of year, however, unless you have an experienced eye.

I have lots of experience with green sunfish, too. Here's my opinion. Green sunfish can certainly dominate a fishery. They are aggressive feeders and grow quite fast. With a larger mouth than bluegill, green sunfish have a competitive advantage. So, as a sunfish fishery, green sunfish definitely have an edge. They spawn once yearly and actively feed on smaller fish (sunfish, bass, whatever). Bluegill spawn several times yearly in the south, but with such a small mouth (a number two pencil barely fits in the mouth of a 7 incher)they struggle to compete in the same food chain as green sunfish.
When bass are stocked, the whole equation changes.
I first learned this about 20 years ago when I analyzed an interesting pond. It seems this central Texas pond had a fish kill. It sat immediately below a turkey farm. Every time it rained, turkey waste made its way into this pond on the farm. Before long, water was fertile...really fertile. Two years later, there was a fish kill. All bass, bluegill, channel cat...dead. Some of the green sunfish died, but apparently not all. Shortly thereafter, the turkey farm went out of business but the pond was fertile. As the pond flushed for several years, the fertility level dropped and the three acre water body became functional again. The farm sold and the new owner wanted to make the pond a good fishery again.
I electrofished it and shocked up thousands of green sunfish in four different age classes. I projected there were at least 750 pounds of green sunfish in the pond. I hated to kill all that meat. My recommendation, which the landowner followed, was to stock 450 adult bluegill along with 75 14" bass. I knew a 14" bass could eat 80% of the existing green sunfish. I also knew the bass would grow fast with that much food. So, before long, the bass would be large enough to eat the other 20% of the green sunfish.
What I didn't know was how long it would take, whether or not bass would deplete the green sunfish enough or not and how the bluegill would respond.
Here's what happened. The next year, we electrofished the lake. Bass were 16-18" long and relative weights were 110-130%. Bass were obese. Green sunfish numbers were definitely lower, but we found no baby bluegill or baby green sunfish. We shocked up some of the adult bluegill and a handful of small bass.
The second year, we found 17-21" bass, baby bass and 10" bass. We also found good numbers of young bluegill along with some of the adults. We found a few adult green sunfish, maybe 50.
The third year we found three size classes of bluegill, one green sunfish and thousands of young of the year bass and bluegill. Bluegill dominated the sunfish population, thanks to heavy pressure from bass.
After that, the owner sold the farm and we haven't been back.
That was the most dramatic situation I have seen, but that situation has been replicated time and again on a smaller scale in Texas. It seems every watershed in this state has green sunfish. It also seems green sunfish can survive any natural phenomenon from drought to flood. They actively move during high water and that's probably how they got into Archer's pond.
My humble opinion is to not panic. Over the long term, green sunfish in a bass lake will only be a food source and not a problem.

Thanks Bob. Another validation that a GSF pond can be fixed by adding adult LMB and adult BG.

I've never been able to reconcile the opinions about GSF. People tend to characterize them as very different from other sunfish to the extent that they are usually treated as trash fish. A Lepomis trash fish! Whereas people go to great lengths to manage BG and RES, GSF are rarely targeted for anything but removal despite some very positive attributes. Maybe Bob's story holds the answer to the prejudice against Greenies.

Since almost nobody manages for GSF, people's opinions are mostly based on naturally occurring populations. Often in these cases the GSF are the dominant species and they are stunted. This probably gave rise to the common wisdom that GSF are small and more prone to stunting than other Lepomis. We know that GSF can grow to over 2 lbs and that all Sunfish will overpopulate and stunt given certain conditions.

Maybe the key to all this is the Green Sunfish's ability to survive when other fish die. This would be a factor more often in unmanaged waters where we usually find the stunted GSF.

"The green sunfish are the most widely distributed and adaptable sunfish and tolerate a wide range of conditions (high turbidity, low dissolved oxygen and high alkalinity) (Childers 1967; Tomelleri and Eberle 1990). This wide tolerance usually results in their overpopulation and suppression of native
sunfish populations." ARTICLE

It seems like the thing that makes GSF "trash" is that they are the most hardy of sunfishes. So in summary we have a sunfish with a large mouth, that eats aggressively, tastes very good, fights well on light tackle, can exceed 2 lbs, and can survive events that would kill other sunfish. I don't see how the term "trash" can fit in with that list.

I think my eyes are welling up. GW you are a gentleman and a scholar.





Me either. But I guess if my GSF never grew above 4 to 5 inches I might feel slightly different (or not). All I know is they have beautiful coloration and hit a lure with a terrible vengeance. Once hooked they become raving lunatics, which, for obvious reasons, I find admirable.

It will be interesting to see how the next few years play out. DIED is managing his pond for sunfish with GSF as the dominant predator. My guess is that give his GSF a year or two of tasty BG and RES fry and YOY to eat and he will have monster GSF in his pond. Heck they are over a pound already. I'll bet in a year or two he'll be catching GSF nearing 2 lbs.

My pond is being mismanaged for LMB. I'm not looking for trophy bass just a few in the 3 to 5 lb range. As most folks know both DIED and I added BG (a plenty) and adult RES this past January. How will my pond shake out? I'm tracking relative weights of my LMB which were on a rapid increase (haven't been able to check in a few months). Will I ultimately end up with a few lunker GSF as well? I certainly don't know. What I do know is that I am a very capable and productive Elodea grower though so I got that working for me.

As for Archer, I think you have had some of the greatest minds of Pond Boss weigh in on this discussion (also admittedly some of the most damaged minds but whose pointing fingers.... HEY stop pointing fingers at me!). I think the best advice is don't panic.

I think it was in one of Bob's books that I read that a Pond is never (or perhaps only momentarily) in a state of perfect balance it is constantly moving toward some state of unbalance that requires some management intervention (I'm paraphrasing - - I can't remember the correct terminology). Or perhaps I got the whole concept wrong which also is entirely possible. The point is you should never take advice from a demented CPA, shame on you.

SO THERE!

Each member of the lepomis family is different. Each should be viewed according to its traits to reach a goal set by a pond owner or fisheries manager. So it all depends on the goal and use. Each is a tool to be used in the proper situation. Look at the variety of what different pond owners want and you can understand the differing opinions wrt many matters. Keep in mind that as a % far more pond owners goals are for a quality LMB/lepomis pond. That is not possible with a GSF forage base and LMB in most situations. It is possible with a BG forage base and LMB. The difference is in the trait of reproductive potential to serve as forage. BG have enough reproductive potential GSF do not. I would not say one is trash the other not but each is a tool to reach a goal. Use the right tool to reach the goal. Use the wrong tool to reach the goal and be dissatisfied with the results. Unsatisfactory results lead to negative comments and opinions. It is not the tools fault but the owner or manager. It can get the manager fired so he has a natural bias against things that have a high risk of failure.

Is that a polite way of saying I'm fired or are you calling me a tool?

Either way I think we both agree that a LMB/GSF combination without any other sunfish will not work for any long period of time.

I mostly agree with you ewest, but my point is slightly different. Of course GSF can't fill the role of BG in providing a forage base for LMB, I think we all agree on that. The common wisdom is that GSF can't grow large and always stunt and this is untrue. It's this fallacy that leads people to panic when they find GSF in their ponds.

Often people wish to have a trophy Lepomis pond and BG with stunted LMB is the most often prescribed formula. I wonder how many people might be tempted to try using GSF and possibly avoid a pond full of stunted LMB if the stigma against GSF wasn't present. There must be a better approach to large Lepomis than running our ponds up to near full carrying capacity with stunted bass to get a handful of large BG. I think it's a shame that people like Bruce and Cecil and others aren't tempted to explore the potential of a fish that has so many good attributes. Instead the only supporters of GSF end up being the nutcases of the forum...

Jeff that was not pointed at you or anyone else but was an explanation of why so many managers and owners have a negative opinion of GSF in that situation. It was written right after GW posted but the PB server would not take the post for a while (seems we are having forum problems again).

Jeff I did not want to go there with your second sentence as it tends to confuse the matter. Depending on management methods a GSF-LMB pond can work long term. Repeated stocking of GSF and/or removal of LMB by fishing or use of female only LMB with the management. of GSF levels (catch , trap and seine) will all work. It really does depend on the management level, tools and the methods used.

GW the large lepomis concept has been widely discussed here. The tools and methods have been discussed. It is a fun question to ponder. Its the management level that is the hang-up. Most people don't want to do the management or incur the cost. The easiest answer for anyone wanting a pond to catch large lepomis is to create a put and take HBG pond with a limited predator. It works great but requires re-stocking and management. Feeding helps a lot in that situation. That type of fishery is IMO much easier to manage than the balance problems associated with GSF or BG and LMB. As Jeff paraphrased Bob - ponds are dynamic and always moving away from balance. That is the same in concept as my statement that - I have never seen or heard of a quality stock and forget pond.

How many times has GSF with a limited predator been discussed? My point is that prejudice has resulted in very little dialog about this interesting concept. I would think that it would be similar to the HBG plan but you wouldn't have to worry about the hybrid's genetic issues and GSF reproduction might make it easier than with HBG. Why not develop a plan similar to the HBG one, but with the hardiest of the sunfishes?

That's my beef ewest, I doubt that you can name one such pond.

whats up archer? see what you started....he he he

GW, you pert near made me weep too..nice discussions, ewest, JHAP, and bob...very fun and informative reading here.

why dont we move this stuff over to a dedicated GSF managment thread under "types of fish to choose"? and we can keep arguing......i mean discussing this over there.

orig. posted by GW....."I think it's a shame that people like Bruce and Cecil and others aren't tempted to explore the potential of a fish that has so many good attributes. Instead the only supporters of GSF end up being the nutcases of the forum..."

i'd venture that bruce and cecil are pretty smart business folk. based on the GSF prejudice you highlight above GW, who would buy GSF? everybody would love CSBG in their ponds, but nobody has PM'd me to sell any DSGSF, which is just as well cause their not fer sale

True DIED, but I said people "like" Bruce and Cecil. I've given up on them.

GW there are quite a few posts about alternate predators , like female only LMB ,SMB, HSB ,WE ,cats etc. Also a few HBG pond threads. What am I suppose to name? ML has a thread about his kids pond (GG and HSB , possibly replaced with LMB). DIED and Jeff have GSF threads. There are a number of threads on GSF in ponds and their results . I will pass on one very limiting factor from several the top fisheries scientists wrt lepomis. Be prepared to be shocked. They have stated that they believe that one of the explanations for the large degree in the differences in % female HBG in the various studies is the lack or shortage of pure GSF stock. Very hard to find pure GSF stock. That coupled with the lack of a market for them make it hard to find them even if you wanted to stock them. I have not encountered a hatchery that sells them. Supply or demand or both? I disagree that there is a prejudice against GSF , just people dealing with results based on the available info.

I do not think a HBG pond and a GSF pond are alike. The biology of the 2 is very different. HBG reproduce much less than GSF , are just as hardy , grow faster and bigger (on average) and are documented to be more aggressive and more apt to bite than either parental. If you are using a put and take HBG concept the genetic issues are inconsequential. Plus with the high % males with HBG you don't have half your population being small females like GSF.

Here is the way I see it, if the current world records for sunfish are any indication as to their overall "potential" size, then RES and BG have much better potential for getting to a very large size than GSF.

Here are the current World records.

RES - 5 lbs 7 oz
BG - 4 lbs 12 oz
GSF - 2 lbs 2 oz

On the other hand, I see a pure GSF forage base as a very viable way of growing big LMB if managed correctly.

GW, the genetic issue you refer to for HBG is that they produce 3 types of offspring; 1 that looks like HBG, 1 that looks like BG and 1 that looks like GSF. Since GSF are streamlined, and dont swim nearly as fast or dart as much as BG, maybe their ideal predator would be CC or HSB with heavy feeding. Give it a shot. We need a new Condello and Baird. I get SO tired of seeing their monster fish.

ewest, what I'm looking for is anyone who has put any notable effort into managing for large GSF.


None of those threads pertain to an effort to manage for large GSF. Usually the subject is how to eliminate them or minimize their presence.


Doesn't that just illustrate my point about the prejudice against GSF? How difficult would it be to produce a GSF strain that was near it's potential? This is my central point, the fact that nobody is working with this fish represents an opportunity lost.


I don't know how you can believe that. If you ask 10 people what they think about GSF 9.99 of them will say they're a trash fish, right Cecil? None of the "results based on the available info" comes from an effort to explore this fishes potential. It's not that people have tried and failed, it's that no one has tried. If you can find an exception I would be grateful.


I agree and as I said there may be advantages in working with GSF over HBG.


Reproduce less: not always a good thing.
Just as hardy: please give evidence of this.
Grow faster and bigger: for the largest fish stock LMB or Alligator Gar... who has tested how fast they can grow GSF?
More apt to bite: again who has studied this?

ewest, I hope you understand that I'm enjoying this exchange with you and that I appreciate your willingness to participate.

Several times I have asked why it would not be possible and perhaps even relatively simple to maintain a GSF pond with fish between 1 and 2 pounds. I don't think anyone has given a good answer yet. I can't imagine how a person who wanted a good Lepomis fishery would be disappointed with such a pond. Pondmeisters like Bruce, Cecil, and others find ways to approach the potential of many types of fish, but it seems that a pond full of 2 lb GSF hasn't caught many people's imaginations yet. I just don't understand how that is possible with such a beautiful, hardy, aggressive, and tasty fish as a Green Sunfish. The potential size of GSF is less than that of BG, but it might be just as easy to attain a population of 1.5 lb GSF as it is to maintain 1.5 lb BG. Maybe easier, but no one can say because no one has tried, at least not that I'm aware of...

Sometimes I think you guys just like to wind me up and watch me spin.

OK guys lets wind the spring a little tighter on this subject. From a 1980 AFS study.



Genetics and Implications of

the Golden Color Morph in Green Sunfish

Rex A. Dunham • and William F. Childers

Aquatic Biology Section, Illinois Natural History Survey

Urbana, Illinois 61801

ABSTRACT: A color mutation of g,reen sunfish (Lepornis cyanellus), resulting in whitish, golden-colored

fish, was studied to determine the inheritance and ecological significance of this mutation. The offspring of

six golden green sunfish were used in this study. The color trait is recessive and is believed to be caused by a

genetically induced malfunction during melanoblast differentiation. The golden green sunfish were slower

growing than normal-colored green sunfish from Illinois. Both color morphs, normal and golden, preferred

to mate with normal-colored green sunfish. The golden green sunfish were more susceptible to predation by

largemouth bass (Micropterus salrnoides) than were the normal-colored green sunfish (P<0.01).



... the green sunfish has a green appearance,

with various dark splotches and bars. Green sunfish

that exhibit a whitish, golden coloration, were dis-

covered in a Texas fish hatchery (White 1971). Dark

spots usually found at the base of the dorsal and anal fins

of normal green sunfish are absent and the only visible

dark pigment is in the pupil of the eye.



Reproductive Behavior

Coloration is important in the reproductive behavior

of normal green sunfish (Tranquilli 1969). During

agonistic encounters and spawning, the color of the male

becomes very pale. While spawning the female exhibits

the barred juvenile color pattern, which appears to be a

mechanism to appease the aggressive male (Tranquilli

1969). The golden sunfish do not go through these color

changes, which may affect their ability to reproduce.

Because golden female sunfish constantly exhibit the

coloration of a highly aggressive normal male, spawning

between normal males and golden females may be dif-

ficult. However, golden œemales may be able to contrib-

ute to the gene pool during breeding frenzies such as

those described by Hunter (1963).



In the second method, crosses were made by isolating

individual males with individual females in fiber glass

tanks containing about 530 L of water. Gravel was

placed in one corner of the tank for nest substrate and

clay flower pots were placed in another corner as refuge

for the female, since green sunfish males will often kill

the female in confined quarters (Miller 1963). The tanks

were checked daily for eggs or fry.



Management Implications

Overcrowding and stunting of forage fish is a major

problem in recreational ponds. The golden trait could

possibly have value in a small lake or pond to produce

low density sunfish populations by stocking only golden

sunfish. Because green sunfish are undesirable forage

and sport fish, the golden green sunfish should not be

stocked in recreational ponds. If the golden trait could be

transferred to other sunfish species, a potentially valu-

able management tool could result.

Clearly this is not a reputable study.

GW
you are up to 1050 plus posts, i am sure i havent seen em all, thanx for showing up.

it appears to me that you have yourself your next mission

now, where you going to get your broodstock? and if it goes bad we can feed em to the BSF.

but whhat about the 1.5lbs of bg to 1.5 pounds of GSF? And then whats the fasttest way to the most 1.5 pounds of fish protein for the existing habitat and pellets?

the study clearly didnt know ole GW was hot on the trail.

Thanks cliffbrook. Any day now our pond contractor will start work on my girlfriend's pond and my .5 acre pond. As soon as there's a small amount of water in it I will begin the experiment. The only difference is that GSF aren't native to my area. That's funny isn't it? The good news is that Warmouth are native and they're plentiful. So my test will be for WM, but I think there are a lot of similarities to GSF. Hopefully my experience will help anyone interested in GSF. One encouraging fact is that the record WM is almost 2.5 lbs compared to 2.1 for GSF. My goal is a 3 pounder.

DIED, I don't know where I got the idea that you had changed to managing for LMB, I guess I was thinking of jhap. Please excuse the references to "nobody managing for trophy GSF". I stand corrected. I look forward to hearing more about your pond as things develop. Someday I hope we can compare our apples and oranges (GSF and WM).

I have read documentation of GSF taking over ponds but have not PERSONALLY seen it. The various State records of their growth potential are pretty conclusive as regards their comparison to other sunfish. However, every pond is its own ecosystem and is different.

At one time, about 25% of my catch was GSF. For awhile, I tossed them on the bank. Then I started thinking about their more cylindrical shape and figured they were the perfect bass food. Now, I seldom see or catch one. They just haven't been able to overcome time, LMB predation or BG spawning competition.

Like RES, they only spawn annually and neither provide a plentiful forage base to feed/raise other predators. As a forage base, neither are useful and yet the RES are prized for their snail eating tendency. I guess that part makes sense but I find that everything in the water is a predator of everything else and all small fish will predate on flukes. Gambusia are known for their larvae eating but anything that sees a larvae will eat it.

I still have a couple of whoppers that come to feed. If I see them when fishing, I pull the bait away from them because I hate to stress those old guys/gals. If caught, I handle and release them very carefully.

I consider them a beautiful fish and a very limited or non existant threat when stocked with LMB and BG.

BTW, my favorite dogs and people have been mutts. I kinda resemble that remark.

DIED I think we should not move this topic to the archives but instead start a GSF thread in the archives which links to this thread and others on GSF including yours. Thoughts. I will look for threads and ask Bill to write the short intro. Good idea.

DD, I have found several references to GSF spawning more than once a year.

For better or worse, the ponding world revolves around LMB. Except for a scarce few BG aficionado's. All other species are judged not so much for their own benefits, but by their compatibility and usefulness to grow big LMB. I guess that's why BG and RES have been favored without question for so long.

If the mighty LMB, SMB, or HSB aren't wanted as the top predator, then GSF and WM must be looked at in a completely different light.

I love to catch LMB, but actually think I might prefer a killer BG/GSF pond to a good BG/LMB pond, assuming the balance would be controllable and sustainable. I'll be watching your adventure closely, GW!

Good grief this thread has gone crazy in the past 24 hours! We got us a nice debate going on here.




I didn't take any remark personally Ewest, I was just poking fun as per my usual behavior.

Oh and I'm glad you mentioned the forum issue, I though it was just my computer since I haven't heard anyone else mention it.



Me confuse an issue..... well I never!!!!

archer, I highly suggest that you get a wiremesh (1/4" mesh) minnow trap with a conical opening on each end. Use a little spray paint to dull the shiney finish of the wire mesh. Shiney finish scares fish. Bait trap with bread or fish food and set the trap in shallow water (top of trap just out of or under the surface), and parallel to shore. The catch from 2-4 trappings will tell you the relative percentages of minnows and panfish. I dealt with a pond this fall that had small fish in it from a spring pumping -filling operation. Fish swimming in the shallows were schooling and swimming like minnows, thus they appeared to my trained eye to be minnows. Daughter of pondowner said she had been bit by little fish and she saw whitist yellow on one of the fish. Now I was in doubt. A trap set for just 15 minutes reveiled about 15-24 GSF. I am always learning. If you don't catch any small GSF the the adults in your pond did not spawn this year. I will look for a picture to post of small GSF and BG.


I very much doubt that birds brought in those GSF because it is almost impossible for a couple birds to bring in several GSF in one summer. One or two rare birds may bring in 1 maybe 2 fish a summer but not 4 or 5. When I was a kid 5-13 yrs old, I was an avid pond stocker. I was constantly moving fish around in buckets doing "favors" like a "professional". The main difference between me and 99% of the other fishermen-pond stockers is I knew the difference between GSF and BG; they don't. I think your pond was stocked by "friends" because you weren't doing it fast enough for them to get another place to fish.

Lots of kids catch and dissect frogs; young William Cody could dissect them and then put them back together again. Cody says "A budding plastic surgeon in the making", but he never became board certified. .

Here are pics of yoy (juvenile) BG and GSF.

BG







GSF

All I need now is a good hole in the ground and some water!

UPDATE

Fished on Weds/Thurs afternoon from about 4:45 to 6:00 pm. Caught 3 fish Weds (1 3", 1 4.5", 1 6")[was just my two kids], and caught 16 fish Thurs (10 5-6", 6 3-4") [four of us fishing]. We caught more Thurs because I set the hook depth deeper (about 2 ft below surface) since we had a cool front bring a strong north wind and 60F air temp Thurs morning. We take them to a nearby creek and let them loose (dont have the heart to kill them, especially since the kids caught them).

I was planning on building my fish trap this weekend. I have some left over wire screen (lathe) that was used to make mortar stick to the exterior walls of my house before stone was cemented to it. It has very small spacing ( < 1/8" weave), and can make about an 18" diameter, 3 ft long cylinder. I was going to roll my end openings into a cone and trim off the tip to make an entry point, then wire that to the main cylinder.

How large (diameter) should the cone tip opening be ?

Thanks for the tip on depth placement.

I would have to assume that the GSF spawned sometime this year, as my wife hooked a very small GSF (would fit inside palm).

I would like to be able to gauge the numbers of my stocked 1-3" CNBG....will they enter the trap if larger GSF are already in there? And if they do, would the GSF eat them before I saw them?

I hope that all the fish I see in the shallows are minnows, as I never saw any fish in the shallows until I stocked FHM in Oct. The pond was almost full all summer, so the shallows were easy to see, but no activity.

As for how the GSF got there I am still head scratching. On an unfed pond, I cant see GSF fry growing to 6" in 16 months, and the first 3-4 months the water was very cloudy as new bank areas became covered or washed down due to rain. Unless you were walking through fenced fields that are private property, you would not know this pond was there, and I have only 3 neighbors nearby (which means at least 300 yds apart), but can't rule out just someone trying to "help" me out. The one thing I can guarantee is that it was not from inflow...that would require 2 ft of water across 100's of acres to get above my banks.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways...........

ewest's photos are pretty good for 1.5-2.5" BG and GSF. They should give you a good indication for separating BG and GSF. CNBG will look very similar to the BG shown by J Lyons.