Pond Boss
Posted By: TEXAS715 How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:12 PM
Gars!!!!!

I have pumped out my stock tank three times and each time I remove some gars. The last time I pumped it dry was just over a year ago and it remained dry for over three months. I thought everything would be good. I put some tilapia and Golden Shiners in it this past spring. Thinking I could pull some out I have pumped it down and pulled out over 18 gars and nothing else besides a couple of copperheads. Where did they come from? How do you git rid of them? The only water that might run into is from a well or rain run off. No creeks or streams.

The biggest one weighed over 4.5 lbs. That seems pretty large for less than one year growing time.
Posted By: ewest Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:22 PM
Any chance a neighbor likes to help you grow gar ? I have a Fisheries Science Prof friend who's Univ. BG growout pond (10 acres) was used by helpful neighbors to grow out FH cats - until there were few BG left but some very nice FHC (10 to 40 lbs).
Posted By: Shorty Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:23 PM
 Quote:
That seems pretty large for less than one year growing time.



Do the neighbors like to catch gar? If so, grrrrrr......

Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:27 PM
I can't answer your question TEXAS715, but I got some advice from a University of Florida professor who recommended using Gars in my WM pond. He thought that they would help keep the WM numbers to a reasonable level without taking over the pond. He mentioned certain types of Gar that don't get too large, and said they wouldn't prey on large fish.

I just wonder if having Gar in your pond is a bad thing. Could they represent an alternative to (stunted) LMB for a trophy bream pond? I don't know what you manage for T175, but maybe the Gar are actually helping you.

I'm looking forward to reading about peoples experiences and opinions about Gars. Also, what's the abbreviation for Gar? G?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:51 PM
Considering we've had to go to three letters for many species (SMB, RES, etc.), I think Gar can be abbreviated "GAR". ;\)

Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 07:55 PM
That's it! Gar = GAR.

Now I understand why you're a mod Theo.
Posted By: ewest Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 10:18 PM
Be sure not to add one these or it may control the human population. Have you seen your neighbor swimming in the pond ? If they don't this may be the reason. \:o


Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 10:31 PM
Okay, that could eat any LMB...
Posted By: burgermeister Re: How did they get there? - 11/05/07 10:49 PM
 Originally Posted By: GW
Okay, that could eat any LMB...


GAR=grr
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:00 AM
 Quote:
Size, Age & Growth
The alligator gar is one of the largest freshwater fishes in North America and is the largest of the gar species. Young gars have an adhesive disc on the underside of the snout that they use to attach to objects on the bottom until the yolk sac is absorbed. Young gars also have a dorsal caudal filament at the posterior end of the upturned vertebral column, which atrophies and disappears in adults. Gars are slow growing fish, with female alligator gars reaching sexual maturity around age 11 and living to age 50. Male alligator gars mature around age 6 and live at least 26 years. Alligator gars commonly grow to a size of 6 1/2ft (2 m) and over 100 lbs. (45kg). But have been reported to grow up to 350 lbs. and around 10 ft (3m) in length. The largest recorded alligator gar comes from the St. Francis River, Arkansas in the 1930's, and weighed 350 lbs (159 kg).


http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/AlligatorGar/AlligatorGar.html
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:03 AM
This is the GRR that was recommended by the Prof for my WM pond:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/gallery/descript/floridagar/floridagar.html
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:12 AM
Gar can breath air and possibly survive in pond mud can't they? Could that be why they keep showing up? I thought this was the same with bowfin.
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:33 AM
I just read that they can tolerate low water quality and they can get O2 from their air bladder. I didn't get the impression that they could survive in mud or anything like that though.

Spotted GRR are native to my county and the angling record is only 8.75 lbs. I've seen either these or Florida GRR in the creek that runs through our place. There is a good chance that these fish will be stocked into my little pond, and probably into Cindy's pond as well. I'm differnt.

PS. GRR can be eaten, but the roe is toxic.
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:52 AM
Eric, do you know what body of water they caught that in?

I have seen a lot of big ones when I was a Kid fishing at Texhoma. But nothing even close to that. Of course no one fished with tackle that could bring that one in.

No one wanted them. Considered a trash fish that people cut there lines and left them the bank to die.

They have real nasty teeth.

Do some people actually eat them?
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 01:30 AM
GW, Those don't look so bad to have around as the A'GAR's. In fact the pictures were pretty and maxing out at 7lb helps.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 02:08 AM
Gar fish balls are a delicacy in Sout Luziana, not the actual....you know, but the flesh mixed with other stuff and fried. Good stuff!
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 02:18 AM
GW, et al.

I have added acronyms for the four Lepisosteus Gar species to the archives.

LG = Longnosed Gar
SG = Spotted Gar
FG = Florida Gar
AG = Alligator Gar
Posted By: ewest Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 03:05 AM
Bill IIRC that pic was from the Texoma area.
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 03:36 AM
I'm not surprised with it being fed by the Red and Washita Rivers, both good sized rivers that have pretty good sized flood plains and slews in the spring, and from the links posted saying they like flood plains to spawn in.

Striped Bass also like to spawn in rivers and actually reproduce in Texhoma. It has been a long time since I read the piece but I think it is the only lake or one of a very few where there is documentation of stripped bass spawning in a lake. It also said that although Texhoma is fresh water is has a higher salt content than most fresh water impoundments.

I remember fishing at night AG's would swim so close to shore in the clear shallow water you see their outlines as swam by. Like that one link said they would just sometimes float in one place on the surface for a long time before moving on. There were gobs of them. I was surprised to read they were endangered in so many places. At Texhoma back then it was common to catch while catfishing at night and their dead corpuses were everywhere stinking up the shore line hooks still in their teethy monster looking mouths. As a young boy I always wanted to catch one because they looked so dangerous, I am different too GW, but when I mentioned it was scolded.
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 03:43 AM
Burgermeister, the rare times I get down that way I am too busy eating crawfish pies, yummy!

I like to drive south of N.O. and in the little towns find their equivalent of a greasy spoon. But some of the best seafood with the most generous portions were in places like that.

Not fancy but those folks know how to chow down with ice cold beers! And I have admit I am one of those folks that go through one of those great big bottles of Tabasco every month.

All this making me want to travel...could be south of N.O. by breakfast...could be in Shreveport a little after mid-night but it just isn't the same. But I am definetly going to grow me some red swamp crawfish next spring.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 11:52 AM
 Originally Posted By: GW
I just read that they can tolerate low water quality and they can get O2 from their air bladder. I didn't get the impression that they could survive in mud or anything like that though.



It would seem to me if they can stay moist and breath air they could potentially survive in mud.
Posted By: george1 Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:04 PM
Big gars in Lake TEXOMA (spell check)...

Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 12:49 PM
Give me a break warden (GW) , I go blind about that time at night......in fact I still am, it's early (working on second cup of coffee). To think of it I always am even with lots of coffee.

I do know there is an "h" in there. Back then I lived on the "homa" side.
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 01:39 PM
Bill, only someone from Texas (see:George) or Oklahoma would care how you spell Tex(h)oma.

Theo, I just searched "acronyms" and there was no obvious acronym thread. Since the list keeps growing* maybe it would be helpful to have a thread titled "acronyms and abbreviations" or something like that.

*Sooner or later I'll be talking about Chain Pickerel and maybe Grass Pickerel.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 01:44 PM
It's titled Commonly Used Acronyms
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 01:48 PM
It doesn't come up in a search for "acronyms"...

Also some people don't know what acronym means.
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 01:56 PM
Okay not GW but George1.

You pointed out something I never noticed before, and I am still sleepy and confused. See below:

As a result of the break up of the Chickasaw Indian Nation and the formation of the State of Oklahoma from the Indian Territory, she received an individual portion of land in what was a part of Marshall County, Oklahoma. Later, when Lake Texhoma was planned and then built, this land was to become a part of the lake bottom. The federal government bought her land from her. (But not the mineral rights which have now desended to her heirs.)

When I did a search for Texhoma I got Texhoma and Texoma. Another example, and they go on and on.

Here's a view of Roosevelt Bridge where it crosses Lake Texhoma, looking east toward Durant, Oklahoma. And here's the "welcome" sign at the entrance to Lake Texhoma Lodge just west of Roosevelt Bridge.

I grew up on the Okie side and always called it Texhoma, now after the search in the Tx and Ok panhandle there apparently is a new "Lake Texhoma". Beats me. I sure know where the Roosevelt Bridge, Marshal County, and Durant are, and they sure aren't in the panhandle.

But I stand corrected at least on this side of the river. The thing is there are no bridges across it (with signs) from Oklahoma to Texas except for the one south of Madill on the upper part of the lake where it starts to form and it says "The Red River". Go Figure.
Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 02:17 PM
GW it bothers the hell out of me. At 55 to find out you were calling a lake you grew up on and fished and boated all its rivers and creeks, etc, etc, is to say the least disconcerning!

I am about to have to go somewhere, but I get back I am going to make some phone calls about the history of this.

Okahoma and Texas has fought over oil wells in that lake and the river. Went to the Supreme court and they traced back to old Spanish French treaties, and all the river is Oklahoma's, but then again the river changes course.

In the 20's or 30's a bridge was built accoss the river and the Ok Gov. wanted a toll bridge, the Tx Gov. wanted a free bridge. The Ok Gov. had state troops posted on the hwy where no one could pass and then had part of the hwy plowed up. I dont remember my history well enough if that was the same Ok. Gov. that had state troopers posted around the Capitol where legislatures couldnt meet and impeach him. They finally rented a hotel conference room and impeached him anyway. The watchful eye of the Fed's made sure he vacated. But it was all around the same time period the lake was built too.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 04:18 PM
 Originally Posted By: GW
It doesn't come up in a search for "acronyms"...

Also some people don't know what acronym means.


The most common mistake I make doing a search here is not expanding the time frame big enough. Maybe you did that. Or maybe the search function was acting flaky (I swear it does that).

Anyway, it will show up in a search for "acronyms" (but not "acronym" - singular {curious}) and now (drum roll) also in a search for "abbreviations".

I suppose one of our Okie friends will want it spelled "acrhonym". ;\)
Posted By: GW Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 05:04 PM
Theo, I just ran searchs for "acronym", "acronyms" and "abbreviations" for the previous year. The thread did not show up for any of those terms.

As important as these abbreviations are for understanding the dialog here I wonder if it would be wise to make the acronym thread stay at the top of the archives section. This is know as a "sticky" thread and it is a feature of UBB forum software.

That's my story and I'm stickying to it.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 05:08 PM
I noticed a cool feature on this site http://www.ohiogamefishing.com/community/showthread.php?t=81062
If you scroll to the bottom of the page there's the acronym for Cesears Creek "CC" if you hover your mouse pointer over the the abbreviation, a box pops up and tells you what it means.
Posted By: george1 Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 05:08 PM
 Originally Posted By: Bill Webb
GW it bothers the hell out of me. At 55 to find out you were calling a lake you grew up on and fished and boated all its rivers and creeks, etc, etc, is to say the least disconcerning!

I am about to have to go somewhere, but I get back I am going to make some phone calls about the history of this.

Okahoma and Texas has fought over oil wells in that lake and the river. Went to the Supreme court and they traced back to old Spanish French treaties, and all the river is Oklahoma's, but then again the river changes course.

In the 20's or 30's a bridge was built accoss the river and the Ok Gov. wanted a toll bridge, the Tx Gov. wanted a free bridge. The Ok Gov. had state troops posted on the hwy where no one could pass and then had part of the hwy plowed up. I dont remember my history well enough if that was the same Ok. Gov. that had state troopers posted around the Capitol where legislatures couldnt meet and impeach him. They finally rented a hotel conference room and impeached him anyway. The watchful eye of the Fed's made sure he vacated. But it was all around the same time period the lake was built too.




Bill, warn’t GW – it wus me…

The Red River War
This IS about fishing – really….
We launch our boats on the Red River to fish for stripers below the dam at Lake TEXOMA, the site of the Red River War.





Lake TEXOMA was built in the early 1940’s during WWII, using German POW labor with mules and slips.


RED RIVER BRIDGE CONTROVERSY. The Red River Bridge controversy between Texas and Oklahoma (sometimes called the Red River War) occurred in July 1931 over the opening of a newly completed free bridge, built jointly by the two states, across the Red River between Denison, Texas, and Durant, Oklahoma. On July 3, 1931, the Red River Bridge Company, a private firm operating an old toll bridge that paralleled the free span, filed a petition in the United States district court in Houston asking for an injunction preventing the Texas Highway Commission from opening the bridge. The company claimed that the commission had agreed in July 1930 to purchase the toll bridge for $60,000 and to pay the company for its unexpired contract an additional $10,000 for each month of a specified fourteen-month period in which the free bridge might be opened, and that the commission had not fulfilled this obligation. A temporary injunction was issued on July 10, 1931, and Texas governor Ross S. Sterlingqv ordered barricades erected across the Texas approaches to the new bridge. However, on July 16 Governor William (Alfalfa Bill) Murrayqv of Oklahoma opened the bridge by executive order, claiming that Oklahoma's "half" of the bridge ran lengthwise north and south across the Red River, that Oklahoma held title to both sides of the river from the Louisiana Purchase treaty of 1803, and that the state of Oklahoma was not named in the injunction. Oklahoma highway crews crossed the bridge and demolished the barricades. Governor Sterling responded by ordering a detachment of three Texas Rangers,qv accompanied by Adjutant General William Warren Sterling,qv to rebuild the barricades and protect Texas Highway Department employees charged with enforcing the injunction. The rangers arrived on the night of July 16. On July 17 Murray ordered Oklahoma highway crews to tear up the northern approaches to the still-operating toll bridge, and traffic over the river came to a halt. On July 20 and 21 mass meetings demanding the opening of the free bridge were held in Sherman and Denison, and resolutions to this effect were forwarded to Austin. On July 23 the Texas legislature, which was meeting in a special session, passed a bill granting the Red River Bridge Company permission to sue the state in order to recover the sum claimed in the injunction. The bridge company then joined the state in requesting the court to dissolve the injunction, which it did on July 25. On that day the free bridge was opened to traffic and the rangers were withdrawn. Meanwhile, a federal district court in Muskogee, Oklahoma, acting on a petition from the toll-bridge company, had on July 24 enjoined Governor Murray from blocking the northern approaches to the toll bridge. Murray, acting several hours before the injunction was actually issued, declared martial law in a narrow strip of territory along the northern approaches to both bridges and then argued that this act placed him, as commander of the Oklahoma National Guard, above the federal court's jurisdiction. An Oklahoma guard unit was ordered to the bridge, and Murray, armed with an antique revolver, made a personal appearance in the "war zone," as the newspapers labeled it. No attempt was made to enforce the Oklahoma injunction, but on July 24, with the free bridge open, Murray directed the guardsmen to permit anyone who so desired to cross the toll bridge. On July 27 Murray announced that he had learned of an attempt to close the free bridge permanently, and he extended the martial-law zone to the Oklahoma boundary marker on the south bank of the Red River. Oklahoma guardsmen were stationed at both ends of the free bridge, and Texas papers spoke of an "invasion." Finally, on August 6, 1931, the Texas injunction was permanently dissolved, the Oklahoma guardsmen were withdrawn to enforce martial law in the Oklahoma oilfields, and the bridge controversy was laid to rest. The bridge was dynamited on December 6, 1995, to make room for a new one. BIBLIOGRAPHY: Keith L. Bryant, Jr., Alfalfa Bill Murray (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1968). Dallas Morning News, July 17-25, 1931, March 22, 1953, December 8, 1995. William H. Murray, Memoirs of Governor Murray and True History of Oklahoma (3 vols., Boston: Meador, 1945). Sherman Daily Democrat, July 2-August 6, 1931. William Warren Sterling, Trails and Trials of a Texas Ranger (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1968). Lonn W. Taylor (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu). Copyright ©, The Texas State Historical Association, 1997-2002Last Updated: June 6, 2001




Posted By: Bill Webb Re: How did they get there? - 11/06/07 10:35 PM
I stand corrected on all counts. Been thirty years since I lived up there, and even more time since my Oklahoma history class. But the 1803 treaty, as far as the river went, was tied back by previous agreements between France and Spain. In the 1803 treaty the U.S. was also granted disputed rights to Texas, but relinquished the rights to Spain as part of the purchase of Florida.

Know what Gov. used the national guard to keep the legislature out of the Capitol Blg?

There was also a dispute of what branch of the Red River was the border in the southwestern part of Oklahoma. Texas was trying, if I remember correctly which as we have seen is questionable, to lop off a big chuck of SW Oklahoma.

But the esssance of my memory was correct. There was a lot of crazy nutzy behavior going on between OK and TX over bridges, oil wells, and territory in general in the early days of the state of OK. Third to last of the lower 48 to be admitted to the Union in 1907.
Posted By: george1 Re: How did they get there? - 11/07/07 12:19 AM
Y’all forgive me for hi-jackin’ your thread, but after all it is all about gar and they are big ones in the Red River...

Red River by Guy Clark

From Palo Duro Canyon outside Amarillo Texas
The prairie dog town fork of the Red River flows
Headed cross the plains along the coast of Oklahoma
To the Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico

Red River I know you I know you of old
You have filled up my pockets with quicksand and gold
Susanna oh Susanna when it comes my time
Bury me south of that Red River line

My great grandfather came to that Red River line
And camped on the north side until it was time
To cross or to stay to be sooner or not
He headed south to San Antone they said he liked it hot

Here's to Charlie Goodnight and Mr. Loving too
Here's to Coronado, the Comanche, and the blues
Here's to the bootleggers and the oilfield crews
Here's to the one and all of us Red River fools
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: How did they get there? - 11/07/07 01:50 AM
Always good to hear of Charlie Goodnight, george.
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