O.k. got 163 Condello gills in a floating cage that went from an average of 4.36 inches in April (or was it May?) to a mode of 7 inches and the most numerous -- in October. I had fish to 8 1/2 inches but I had some larger fish in the mix from the beginning so I didn't count them. Good growth and good relative weights. 7 inchers would probably be the male breeding stock.

Well I just drained my 3/4 acre pond and saved about 25 gills to a pound with many in the 14 to 15 oz. range. Very high relative weights and quite wide. Real beauties!

I'd like to cross my best fish with Condello's this spring in a breeding pond to not only use the fast growing genes Condello has produced, but add some genetic diversity. But what chance of scoring will these Condello 7 inch males have if several 9 1/2 to 10 inch Baird males are on the bed? Won't the females gravitate to the bigger Baird males?

Maybe I should use my larger males and cross with female Condello gills? Or if there are enough fish in the pond it's not something to be concerned about. Most literature I have seen says 30 to 50 pairs per acre and since the breeding pond is only 1/10 acre that does not allow a lot of breeding pairs.

Thoughts?

It would be really interesting to quantify the differences in growth rates between your caged fish, and my fish that lived in the lined pond.

My fish, which were the top 1%, averaged 5.26 inches on May 1, and ended up averaging 7.95 inches.

Your fish, which were the next 2-3%, went from 4.36 inches to around 7 inches.

I suspect that your weight gain, as a percentage of starting weight was greater in the cage, but I'm not sure.

All of your CSBG will be "reproductive ready" next year. I may have to think about it more, but my first inclination is to use only one sex of the Baird fish, but I don't think it would matter if they were males or females. I think either way your bigger, older fish would be included in the next generation genetic mix. This would keep you from getting mostly Baird X Baird crosses. Good question.

Regardless, you'd better have some crumble feed available soon after they hatch. They WILL be hungry.

Bruce,

Thanks for the comments. Maybe my big males and your smaller females then. And it's possible if I keep your males in the cages they will hold off maturation which can be a good thing.

Not surprised offspring of your fish will be hungry so soon. I've never had bluegills that feed as agressively as yours and are so hungry all the time.

I think they have a feeding disorder.

Hey I just realised my strain of bluegill will be called BSBG.

Most of us realized that earlier, during the first post on this thread:

Most of us realized that earlier, during the first post on this thread: [quote]



Be nice now. I thought you were interested in some in the future? Keep it up and I won't have any for you.

Size matters and your fish have size on their side, Cecil.

Cecil, is it true that even if you have gobs of bluegills that only thirty to fifty pairs will nest in an acre of water? Even if there is plenty of nesting area?

That is news to me, but everything pretty much is news to me.

Where did you read that? I'd like to get a copy. I keep picking up new information about the little buggers some of which seems paradoxical.

I don't really know (as I am still learning) but I have my doubts about that. I've seen at least a 100 in one spawning colony in a few lakes in Massachusetts, but of course we're talking lakes. I would think the only limitation on how many would spawn is limited spawning habitat. But who knows? Where did you read that?

Here's a link that talks about how many pairs of broodstock to stock per acre. I was wrong it's 20 to 40 pairs per acre. The main thing is not to have so many offspring that they overcrop the zooplankton and you end up with starvation. I know a fish farmer that did that will yellow perch and ended up with hardly any one year.

http://aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/141fs.pdf

BG will spawn in numbers much higher than that as long as there is room (an adequate place to make beds and space in the pond).

Reproduction is probably the strongest genetically wired trait after short term survival (fight or flight). Fish also have an ability to sense the population status (capacity) of the water/pond and reproduce as a survival of the species response. This is well documented where a spawn is eliminated by cause ( sudden cold temps or rapid water rise etc which kills the eggs/fry). Many species will wait a short time and spawn again. It is also documented (for example Bruce's recent post about BG spawning in a new pond in fall) when the water is empty/low on species numbers. These are a couple of reasons along with lack of predation and dominance why BG tend to stunt. If someone finds an article that says only X per acre will spawn I would like to see it.

Cecil do you have the ability to have some Baird X Condello and some Condello X Condello and some Baird X Baird. I think it wise at this point to keep some pure Condello offspring for later use as well as some pure Baird offspring. At least until you see how the fist CSBG X BSBG do.

I was reading your post.

Thanks for the link. I read it and they were referring to stocking brood stock in raising bluegill. That makes sense.

Okay that link brought up a another question that has been floating around with about a million others. They talk about feeding the new fry supplement crumble feed. I have seen where Purina sells a powdered food for fry.

Has anyone put out fry food around areas of cover where fry congregate? I know FH's and other small critters will get some too, but since it seems that how large a bluegill eventually gets has a lot to do with how much it grows the first year has anyone tried to feed fry in a regular pond setting?

Like I said I dont feel like I know anything or just enough to be dangerous. But inquiring (ADD) minds want to know.

Cecil, I'd trust you more than anybody in the world on this, but....I'd tend to use fewer, better bluegill. In other words, I'd be ultra selective on which bluegills went into the reproduction pond. Your seven-inchers may not all be created equal. Some of them will have a little better Wr's, and some will be a little prettier, or a little fitter, and I'd use those.

Bruce is the man to talk about this. He's already done it. I'm a newby at seriously producing bluegills fry. I believe Bruce says as soon as one can see the fry it's time to put out the feed.

Bruce?

Yes, I'm using micro-feeds on YOY's as soon as I can see them. I'm feeding in really clear, lined ponds, so I can see the inch-long bluegill swarming at the feed. I think getting these fish accelerated in their growth early means they have bigger mouths, sooner. This equates into a competitive advantage over crappie YOY's that bluegill are usually lagging behind. It's easier than you'd think, but I'd think that it would be frustrating to feed tiny fish in a murky pond because you wouldn't get the reward of seeing them eat. That's most of the fun for me.

Here's the link to some of the product I've used.

http://www.silvercup.com/troutfry.htm

Bruce,

Does any of it float?

Cecil:

Bruce mentioning BG that are "a little prettier" got me wondering. What exactly would be your perfect BG? Is it all rapid growth, or are you looking for some non-size specific aesthetics?

Bruce, I noticed where you used krill and some other things to feed fry, but it is in tanks or lined ponds. I wouldn't be doing that but I have put out beds where I think the bluegills will most likely want to bed. In the spring the shore side of the beds will have a lot of emergent vegetation including grasses that like to live in a few inches to a foot of water, sedges, water primose, and a little elodea, and coontail. My pond is mostly steep slanted sided so there isn't a lot of places with the water depth and the flatness that would work for them. There is another place but it is also where we play and stomp around so I put out gravel to try to attract them to the other places.

Unless you think it would be a waste of money I might try putting some out in places I think would hold fry, and look more closely than I have for them. The thing is when they leave their nests they are going to be about like mesquito lava or smaller wont they? I quess if they dont eat it larger zooplankton and small insects that will become fish food too will eat it. I can see everyday now as I feed 1 inch BG come to the really shallow water and feed off sunken softened pellets, but I guess I am referring to fry just off the nest.

I'll check out your link but the way I will be doing it is it worth a try? I agree it wouldnt be as much fun, but I guess the point is will it work? And they might be like other fish that feeds once they get a taste of it they will swarm to it. I know that baby FH's stay in areas like I described and who knows at speck size they might not all be FH's.

BTW my giant brush piles that go from 10' deep to very shallow are on the outside (open pond) of the shallow sand flats I have put the out gravel nests in little bowls about 12 to 13 inches wide with about 4 to 5 inch divides between them. Going towards shore is the emergent weeds and grasses then at that time of year there is flooded living brush and brambles.

And thanks for taking the time to answer.

The feed isn't buoyant, but surface tension is enough to keep some of it on the surface for a short while.

Bill, it is definitely worth a try. The only downside that I can think of is that you would have to include any fry feed in your "nutrient budget", which would include any nutrients brought in from runoff, feed, or stockings. I doubt if you would ever put in enough fry feed to be a big deal, but you are still adding nutrients. I can imagine that maybe you'd be under 50 pounds of feed for a whole year of feeding a pretty sizable population of fry. I'm 100% sure that you'll see a higher percentage of your overall bluegill population being feed trained by exposing them to feed earlier in life. I've seen this in my actual experience several times.

I think I will, I can always use a little less liquid fertilizer and if I dont get the bloom I want add a little more every couple of weeks until I get the bloom I want.

I have a almost pet GH that also likes that area (instead of flying away from me when I feed he flies towards me and lands on brush in the water where I am feeding)and a GBH that visits on occasion. I have hog wire and t posts laying around. Would I scare the fish off if I built a pen at water level around and over the water where I built the nesting area's? I was even thinking of putting the wire upside down where the larger opening of the wire would be on the bottom of the pond. That would probably be large enough for BG to get in but might discourage big CC and bass from going in, that coupled with irrate BG. But what would the BG think of it?

Bill I know I'm probably doing everything wrong as usual but my tiny baby bluegills came running all summer to the floating flake food from Walmart. As they got a bit bigger when they ate it sounded like 1,000 tiny kisses on the top of the water when they ate.

Cam

Nothing wrong with that thinking. Sounds like an excellent method to aclimate bluegills to surface feeding. Good job.

Well Cam you know more than me, I don't think I could ever train a LMB to be a pet, or a snake to eat a fish hanging off a string!

Every day I'm learning how much I really didn't know. Brim, BG, sunfish, perch all were the same to me.

I always just thought they didn't get big enough to fool with unless you got out on a lake in deep water. I used to know this retired guy that turned guide and one year I traded what he owed me for doing his taxes to go out on Lake Fork for big "bream". Man they were big. We were a mile from shore in every direction in a stump patch. But I'm to lazy for that, lol. My boat has been parked for 5 years. But now I see that it is at least possible to get nice sized bluegills and a few (to me nice) sized bass. No one is going to give me a prize for 2 or 3 pound bass but they will be fun to catch and really good to eat. And only a thirty second walk from my front porch. No boat ramps, no wakes that makes you feel you are out on the gulf while fishing. No people period I dont want! Anyway you know a lot more about feeding than I do. I'm tying anyway!

And your story of a 1,000 tiny kisses just confirmed I need to feed my baby's. Every evening where I feed more and more 1 inch or less BG's are coming up in 2 or 3 inches or water to eat sunken soft pellets that drift back to the bank. Now I even throw few right on the edge of the water for them. I didnt even know I had them. I can only sein very limited areas and never caught any that small. They were probably elsewhere in the brush and weeds.

How big were your baby's by the time you noticed them?

Less than an inch. Way less. They were just eyes with tails. You can buy that flake food pretty cheap in about a coffee can size container. That lasts those tiny little mouths awhile. Course I only feed down there once per day. I feed the babies in a different place than I do the larger fish.

It's real cute to see them scrambling when they see the cart coming. They can see me long before I can see them and I see the water moving all around and little tiny wakes on the surface heading in my direction.

Wait till you hear 1,000 baby kisses. Way cute!

Cam

Bruce,

I hear ya. Thank you for the advice. So how many bgs would you plant in the 1/10th acre pond?

I think you could get great diversity with the 10 best Baird males and the 15 best Condello females. They'll be age-2 by then and may not have the egg capacity that older, bigger fish would have. This would also allow for possible misidentification of 7 inch CSBG males as females.

Thanks Bruce!

The other option would be 12 CSBG and 12 Bairds, because then mis-ID would be almost impossible. Then my only worry is that you could be selecting a little more for fast male maturation--but for sure you'd have mature females. Hmmmm.

Or maybe I should give the Condello male gills another year or so and only use definite Condello females as you previously stated? I'd like to delay maturity as long as possible, and in combination with the young ages and the cages, where nests cannot be made, maybe I could do that? Bill says I'm covering new ground on that! Just my luck!

According to the research Ive's seen definite males during prime spawning season should squirt out milt from gentle pressure from the pelvic fins to the vent. However the literature warns not to cofuse urine with milt. If they appear to be males by appearance, the second test would be the milt test. And there is always a flexible catheter tube to obtain gametes which doesn't sound to difficult. I wouldn't want to damage them though. Maybe one of the biologists I know will be able to help.

Here's what scary. Remember this pic I posted earlier? Sure looks like male at first glance doesn't it? It was a female with eggs inside her. Came from a dark water pond. If she had the same coloration with not as developed eggs, to me she could have been mistaken for a male. Notice she's also got a pretty good size ear tab on her.

Bobby Glennon a biologist from Malone and Sons says when they sex gills for hybrid bluegill production they absolutely go for the presence of gametes and never go by appearance alone.

Those are some really beautiful bluegill!

They are much more colorful than any of mine.

But, which one is the BSBG, and which one is the CSBG?