I know there is a bunch of intelligent people that read this site so I thought I would ask a non-pond question. I have been having trouble with coyote's killing my Reg. Boer goats. Since July 4 I have lost 4 of them to the coyotes. (This is starting to get expensive to me about $200 each) They have even killed one of my neighbors Cutting horse colts which is big $$$$ (they came home in the middle of it). I feel that we have had a pack of just plain killers move in. I keep the goats in a High tinsel fence with Hot wires 6" apart. My neighbors and I have declared war on them but have only been able to kill 1 of them. This is the first time that we have had trouble with them in 2 years that I have lived here. Just a note these coyotes are not scared of horses or Jacka$$'s. My question is do any of you have a secret in killing them? Any thoughts on how to handle this? I have the attitude “ Kill them all and let God sort them out”. I have thought about going fishing for them by hanging treble hooks from trees with bait on them. (See how I worked fishing into this) What would you use for bait?

One of the guys on our deer lease has a Great Pyrenes(sp.) dog in with his goats to protect them. As far as I know he has never lost a goat.

GET YOUR SELF A COUPLE OF DONKYS THEY WILL KILL THE CYOTES.
GOOD LUCK....

Tim, the answer to your coyote question is Great Pyrenees livestock guard dogs.

My son has two for his Boer goat herd and has never lost a single one.
Lots of coyotes and bobcats in area.
They raise the puppies with the goats – they are not pets.
I love to watch them take the goats to pasture in the morning and bring them to the pens at evening time - natural herding instinct.

The photo doesn’t do them justice – they are BIG dogs.




Here's a pond picture to keep this thread pond related. Goats will manicure pond edges and eat water primrose to boot.

Finally something I know a little about..yahooo
Tim not to insult you, but are you sure it was C that made the kills? Generaly "farm dogs" that are left free roaming, will cause more damage to wildlife than C will. C are usually seen around kills and are often blamed. That said, if they are after your live stock, the best thing you can do is contact your County Commissioner and find out about getting a county or state trapper in there, they will use cyanide bait stations, snares ,leghold traps and are very adapt at catching yotes. Reason..yotes are probably smarter than most people you will meet as far as survival goes and are extremely intelligent and adapt very fast to attempts to get them, say you call one in and miss the shot, odds are he won't come to another call, or if he does you won't see him. I would try a trapper since you have $$ at stake, a good trapper that will take care of business. Great P dogs are better than a donkey IMO if you go that route. I have taken around a 1,000 yotes and they can be a PIB. I bet you have one yote that will teach it's off spring that your goats are easy.
Good Luck

Tim as aforementioned, thye use a couple of donkeys around our parts...

I just emailed our resident wildlife expert and trapper, Dan VanSchaik to chime in on this one. He will be able to help, too.

around my area the ranchers handle them themselves by trapping and (then) shooting. for "residential" livestock problems, the county will send a trapper in. about three years ago the county mounty was called to the area, he was VERY effective, and it has taken about three years to notice a significant comeback for the local yotes. as others said, dogs work great to keep the herd safe, but if you want them dead expert trapping is probably best.

YOU HAVE TO CARE FOR THE DOGS THE DONKEYS WILL CARE FOR THEM SELFS................

There is an old saying that goes like this: When man is gone from the face of this earth, there will still be coyotes and cockroaches...
Dogs have been protecting sheep (herds) for hundreds of years and do a pretty awesome job. That is one answer to the probelm. Government intervention, traps and/or poison, is INDESCRIMINANT. Experience has taught me that I'd only use this as a very last resort. Plus, no government 'program' has ever eliminated a coyote or couger problem. They only eliminate a few and scare the rest away until a more opportunistic time. The coyotes WILL be back...
My qualification in these thoughts is, I trapped for a (winter) living for many years and was associated with both government trappers and gov programs concerning sheep ranches. Also, my neighbors currently (try to) raise sheep, and coyotes have pretty much ruined their operation. Yes, coyotes attack live sheep and have even attacked the neighbor's Austrailian Shepard that 'protects' them, hence BIG dogs for that end of the operation.
I use to think along the lines of "night-vission" devices to combat the problem, but no one can be that vigilant, as coyotes attack at both day and night.
I, Myself, and Oregon DF+W, agree that electric fencing is the best deterant. If the coyotes are getting through what you already have in place, INCREASE the amount of wire by decreasing the spaces inbetween. I use 4' of 'no-climb' kennel wire on the bottom topped with another 4 feet of electified wire (6" spacing) for a total of 8' feet in heigth. Any less and you are asking for failure.
We also have coons and skunks, and that requires another 2 or 3 strands of electified wire at the bottom, inside and outside of the perimeter, with deligent routine weed-eating, as a single strand of grass can ground out, or even start a fire in the dry season.
This approach is relatively expensive, but not as expensive as both the loss of livestock and the broken hearts you suffer over the years when you have had to put down a prize animal that is laying there half-butchered by a coyote or couger attack.
This system will work against coyotes, couger, deer and the smaller vermin that would like to at least come in for free ducks, chickens, eggs and whatever else is on their minds. No one has ever lost an animal that has a good, well maintained perimeter wire system in place, but it still takes vigilance and up-keep or the preditors will find a way around or under it, some way, some how...

Tim, using dogs, donkeys, fencing tricks, weed control, etc to protect your livestock is like putting armed guards around the next World Trade Centers to stop terrorism. You must attack the predator problem at its SOURCE. Doesn't matter whether its feral hogs, wild dogs or coyotes you need to get an experienced trapper to evaluate the kills and identify the problem animal...then hit them where they live, before they get to your pens. Traps work while you sleep and are proven to be the most effective ongoing conrol known to property management. Forget the search for the one-shot remedies and find a great local trapper who will stay with you. More help if you want when I get home tomorrow.
Dan VS

Use the treble hook approach with a chicken. it works wonders

Oregon Dept of Fish and Wildlife would disagree that fencing would be classified as a "trick" as it is the only recommended and highly successful deterant practiced in the state. I will state this again: traps catch and MAIM non-target animals Indiscriminately and only (temporarily) work if you life in an extremely rural area. "To hell with the neighbor's dogs if they are running lose" will make more enemies than it is worth and possibly buy you a law suit. If you ever figure out how to find out where the coyotes "live", please let the rest of the world how you did it.

WHERE DID POND BOSS GO THIS IS OUT OF HAND............

I once caught a coyote fishing with a top bait in my pond,,,,,

I'm not an expert but the best I ever met used noose snares. Identify where they are coming under the fence and start there. Yep, you're gonna catch somebodys puppy dog. But that may just end your "coyote" problem.

I wish we had more up here where I'm at. Then I might see less of those damn stray cats! Killed three one year only to have three take their place the following year. The only reason I was offing them was they would tease the dog and get her to chase them -- right into the highway. I'm tired of killing them though.

I disagree that it's out of hand. Just like with managing ponds, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Very interesting, keep it up. When we need to kill the thread, I'll call Brettski in. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

Coincidentally I've got a female cat in heat somewhere out there in the dark tonight. Had to let the dog out on the deck to keep her from waking up the wife with her barking. ^%$#@## cats!

Guys, Thanks for all the great responses. Just a quick update, another one dead yesterday during 10 am and 5 pm in broad daylight. We had hay cut lying in the field so we had to leave the house to go bail hay. I found one dead in the pasture about 50 feet from the house with the guts eaten out and one severely wounded in the shallow end of the pond they had bitten her in the throat. I believe she dove in the pond to save her life. I left the dead goat laying just where they killed her for my night hunt bait. All I had to do is just site on my back porch and wait. After doctoring the goat I came in the house and ate supper for about 30-45 minutes around 8:30 pm, during supper they came in to the dead goat. When supper was over I opened the door and shine the light at the dead goat and she was not there. I shined the light around and about 150 feet from the house I see red eyes shining back at me. I shot between the eyes and got another one. I drug the goat back to the 50 foot spot and got a lariat rope and tied her to a cedar tree so they could not drag her off again. I waited again until 1 am and no more Coyotes showed back up so I went to bed. My wife got up at 3 am and looked at her and she still had not been touched, But at 5 am when she got back up there was 11 or 12 of them eating her. My wife came and got me from bed but they where gone when I got out there. Daylight came and I went out there and there was nothing left but the head and skeleton so I buried the goat and the dead coyote. I have always kept the goat locked up at night and during the day I have them in a pasture with 11 electrified wires (I counted them today) spaced 6 inches apart starting 6 inches off the ground. My wife spoke too one of my neighbors this morning and he said that he got up to 7 dead chickens this morning also.

Cecil, I have no less than 20 wild cats that live around here and they don't seem to mess with them. I say this because I never find any dead cats but I may be wrong.

Tim, with this kind of problem, I would definitely get an experienced trapper ASAP. You and the neighbor are on their circuit for an easy meal.

I would also get the big white dogs. They are real Pro's when it comes to coyotes. I am aware of guys that use them and don't consider them as pets. They bring food on a daily basis, leave it for them, and come back the next day. They say that this keeps them more attuned to the goats than their human masters.

Gotta agree with Burger, this is not an inappropriate post in our world. Yeah, it might be more appropriate under "Family Talk" but I don't see a problem.

Cats are usually pretty high on their menu but they are opportunists. They will take the easy stuff first.

Dan VS, I fully understand the SOURCE of the coyote problem and traps are “sometimes” a temporary solution to a long term problem, especially for Tim’s problem.

Coyotes live in the cities, in the country and everywhere in between.
Their reproduction is controlled by the amount of forage available, whether from city garbage cans, pet food containers, household pets, or numbers of rabbits and small critters avalable .

I live in the city with a creek in my backyard, and coyotes range up and down the creek – they don’t “live” in one area.
Several pets have been killed and eaten in peoples’s back yards.
We have seen them numerous times.
The city has a “professional trapper” that sets “noose” traps along the creek and has been unable to control them.

As mentioned in my earlier post, my son raises Boer goats in a coyote and bobcat ridden rural area.
He has two Great Pyrenees livestock guard dogs with a herd of about 50 goats.
He has NEVER lost a goat.

Tim, sorry a bout your loss.
I would surely check into the BIG dogs for a long-term solution.

Tim, sorry if it seemed like I was criticizing, but coyotes serve a purpose in nature. As Cecil pointed out they do help control the populations of rodents, coons, cats, rabbits, etc. I don't have a problem with hunting or trapping, but I don't think you'll ever be able to kill enough coyotes to stop the problem.

Using dogs or donkeys seems like a good approach, but if you don't want to do that for some reason there's still something you can try.

Taste aversion has some advantages over other methods. Taste aversion happens when an animal eats something and shortly after gets sick. Vets use apomorphine for this purpose when training puppies not to chew on shoes etc. It's tasteless and odorless but will cause the animal to vomit after eating it.

If you were to inject apomorphine into the carcass of a freshly killed goat, the coyotes would ingest it and then get sick. They will learn that goat isn't good to eat. The biggest advantage with this method is that the coyotes will teach their young to avoid that type of prey also.

You can't buy or use apomorphine yourself, but maybe you could work with a veterinarin.

I also live in the city but commute to my "home away from home" on weekends.

I also live by a creek. No shortage of coyotes, rabbits, coons, tree rats (squirrels), feral hogs, skunks, possums, armadillos, snakes, etc.

A friend of mine rented a pasture for grazing cattle. Using nooses, he eliminated over 100 coyotes and dogs in the first year.

I would think that 6 inch electric fences would be a deterrant. However, they are getting to Tim.

Tim,

Howdy. Sorry to read about your problem. Like another poster, I have to wonder if those are really coyotes or possibly a pack of dogs gone wild with perhaps some coyote strain mixed in. We have lots of coyotes and actually I enjoy hearing their call to the hunt around sundown every day and their excited barking on the trail. I've never lost an animal to a coyote in over 30 years of cattle ranching.

The fact they attacked during the day is also an indicator to me that a wild dog influence is possible in your case. On my place, I've never seen a coyote hunt during the day....always the hunt begins at dusk.

Wild dogs are very common in my area as is a mixed breed dog/coyote looking animal. People just dump their dogs and cats out in the country when they no longer want them. Out of sight, out of mind, I suppose. It causes significant problems to the existing wildlife, local people, and the dumped animals themselves....but I digress.

Again, I'm sorry to read about your problem and hope you can find a solution. Good luck!

Does killing 100 coyotes accomplish anything really? Unless we exterminate the species (what's one more?) there will be a steady source of replacements.

I'll repeat that I don't take issue with controlling coyote numbers, but killing individuals just doesn't seem like anything more than misplaced vengeance. As someone already stated, coyotes reproduce to match available prey. Randomly reducing the coyote population only results in leaving more food for the remaining coyotes which in turn will have large litters because of high availability of prey. Vicious cycle.

It seems a better way to control coyotes numbers is in finding ways to limit their food source (prevent them from taking livestock), without killing them.

Killing individual coyotes doesn't solve the problem long term and may lead to higher coyote reproduction. Letting coyotes live but denying them access to livestock leaves them to the important role of controlling feral cats, coons, rodents, etc.

It seems to me that if you don't use fences, dogs, taste aversion, etc. that killing a million coyotes still won't keep your herd safe.

I don't keep livestock so I might have missed something obvious. Please tell me if that's the case.

If it were me I would look into learning some predator calling techinques.

Call your ag extension or Texas Parks and Wildlife they used to come out and trap or bait to get rid of them if they were causing problems for more than one rancher.

I may not be a country boy but I've lived around coyotes all my life. There are plentiful here in So Cal. In fact my parents have had two dogs killed by coyotes. And they were coyotes, not wild dogs, not dingos. The first occasion my mom saw the coyote feeding on their dogs carcass, on the most recent occasion their next door neighbor heard the ruckus and saw the coyote. The last dog that was killed was attacked mid morning (about 11:00). It was one coyote, not a pack. Coyotes are bold here in So Cal. My wife and I have spotted Coyotes running down the street on several occasions. Usually you spot them at dusk or dawn but we have spotted them at all times during the day. Some are real skittish and will disappear the second they see you others aren't hardly afraid of people at all.

You can generalize all you want but my experience with them is that they are opportunistic hunters, they will hunt any time, and they don't have to be in packs to hunt. They have no problems what so ever killing small to medium sized dogs in a one on one situation. If they live around a city they become acclimated to being around people quickly and they will view small dogs and cats as a food source. It would not surprise me at all that they would kill smaller livestock.

I took this photo in June of this year. I've always wanted to see the Rubicon trial head. So on a side trip to Tahoe we drove up a trial to see the Rubicon staging area. On the way back we spotted this Coyote. This guy was not afraid of us all all. He ran across the road as were driving out and stopped along side the road, turned and faced us, actually took a couple of steps toward the car then turned away and loped off. He did not appear to be intimidated by us at all.



Although I'm not particularly in favor of poisoning or traps that maim I also have never had to deal with repeated death of livestock. I have however had to bury two of my parents dogs (or what was left of them). I believe that they are intelligent and adaptable and would quickly learn how to take advantage of a new food source. They sure have around here.

On a positive note, since Coyotes are so plentiful here in California it has opened up an entirely new market segment...



Sorry, still had the image in my stockpile and besides how often do ya get to use a pic like this?

Last summer when we were shredding the fields at our deer lease, my Dad said that he saw 3-4 coyotes within 30 yards of him. I guess they were hoping that the mowing would scare a rabbit out of the brush and end up with an easy meal. My dad then figured out how to carry a rifle on the tractor.

I saw a coyote this summer when I was planting. He walked right down the road towards me and veered off at no more than 20 yards away, and of course I did not have a gun.

Well, how can any topic that has provoked this kind of response be inappropriate? Any outdoor enthusiast that does not realize the integrative relationship between pond/lake ecosystems and terrestrial wildlife is missing the most important aspect of wildlife management. No single component of the natural landscape stands alone...everything is connected.
Predator control will always bring out emotional opinion in any discussion. There are no universal solutions as most problems are highly localized and situation specific. I have spent 30 years in wildlife biology in many different regions of the US and predator-prey conflict has always dominated the projects. It has tremendous impact on all wildlife populations (including below the waterline) and domestic livestock.
I welcome personal emails from all Pond Boss followers and answer many questions every month. I will caution you, however, that I base my recommendations on science, real data, and positive results; exclusive of emotion or political correctness. During the course of my career, I have amassed volumes of personal photos & recorded documentation that has been used by various state & Federal agencies, including recently published BMP's.
Finally, in reply to the trapping comment concerning "indiscriminant maiming"--I am quite certain this individual has never met a professional trapper trained to target problem species OR witnessed a large mammal predator ripping the entrails from the belly of a screaming baby animal (domestic or wild) while the mother watches helplessly...I have, hundreds of times.

Email me,
Dan VS

Hey Dan, glad to have you aboard.

+1. Didn't get a chance to talk wicha at Arlington, but I really like your booth.

GW,
You are right...I allowed emotion to surface in attempting to demonstrate that nothing is more cruel to nature than nature itself. As far as being scientific, I have been called to hundreds of animal damage cases over the years and have more pictures and diary entries depicting that exact description of a kill than you would care to be bored with. In 90% of those cases, none or a small portion of the kill was eaten.
We (wildlife managers) always tend to favor the joyful rewards of our programs rather than deal with the ugly reality of things like predator control. When we takeover direction of an ecosystem, in whatever capacity, we must also assume responsibility for the negative shifts in population dynamics that follow. Like millions, Tim has injected livestock agriculture into a wild environment and must deal with the inevidable consequences.
Tim has got a severe problem resulting from unatural "learned behavior" of some predator and must get the right kind of help, quick.

THANKS to all for numbers of emails coming in,
Dan

Ah, Coyotes!

A critter you can really "love to hate".

Dan, could you give the biologist's point of view as to why a predator would risk injury making a kill and then not eat it? Do other predators exhibit similar behaviors? Come to think of it I believe some pond owners have talked about herons killing fish and not eating them. How common is this?

cool pic JHAP (the coyote that is... )

GW, i've seen my tomcat do it plenty of times with a variety of critters. perhaps its just animal instinct. also, perhaps the yotes dont perceive they are risking injury or what we perceive as risking injury.

come to think of it, in a way, humans do it all the time.

Just my opinion based on logic...if coyotes are normally noctural hunters and skittish of humans, then show no intimidation; he may be getting hungry. Something to think about.

I MUST SAY I AM SORRY FOR STARTIN A RUKUS WITH MY COMENT WHERE IS PB. BUT I AM AN OLD CONTRY BOY I HUNT TO EXSESE AND BLEADIN HARTS JUST GET ON MY NERVES :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why predators kill, just to kill, without eating the prey is too complex to answer in a quick reply.
I have seen it in all mammal predators from feral cats to mountain lions. Even in the highly ordered wolf society- that's what got them in deep trouble with the cattle industry. No one minds a loss here or there if it is used in the food chain; but wanton waste is another issue.
Many times, the killer urinates or deficates on the uneaten carcass which indicates territoriality. Other times, they may "play" with the prey for hours before killing it. In my opinion, they often kill just because they have learned that they can.
We always do a stomach content on the wild predators we take/kill doing such damage, and more often than not, they are full to the point of regurgitating.
Feral or free-ranging domestic dogs & cats are a major threat to all wildlife as they will definately kill for "fun".

Predators and Prey

Sounds like a good topic for my future article in Pond Boss???????

Dan

Sounds like a great topic to me! It definitely has our attention.

Guys and Girls, Thanks as Always for your comments!!! This posting was not meant to ruffle feathers but to gain information. Dan I am glad you are part of this forum and appreciate your expert comments!! I have gotten in contact with a retired state trapper he will be out later this week. I think I now understand how this coyote problem may have gotten out of hand. There is a large sub-division within 2 miles of my place called Cape Royal(18 hole Golf course) that is about 1200 acres in size. Last year they had a wildlife biologist come in and do a survey of the deer population. The biologist determined that there was around 600 + deer living on that 1200 acres. The residents would feed the deer in their backyards which would keep the deer there and attract new deer into the subdivision. They became tame as a pet bunny rabbit. They had monster Boon and Crockett quality bucks laying in the flower beds and street medias.The biologist recommend trapping the abounded deer for relocation. I believe this over population of deer in the area brought in the overpopulation of coyotes. When they trapped and relocated the deer from the subdivision it left behind a bunch of starving coyotes. I love the wildlife and respect it. I feel that wildlife and humans can live together harmony in most cases. I realize that humans are more than likely the root cause of this problem. But I also believe that a person has the right to protect the personal property and I will do so with all means necessary. If it takes killing a 100 of them to do it, than so be it. I agree it is very easy to let personal emotions get involved. Having to explain to your own teenage daughter that her pet market show goat got killed or maimed by the coyotes or cleaning up the mess after their kill may change those minds of the people against killing them.

I have mixed emotions about this stuff.

I do not, and will not allow, anyone to come to my place who uses animals as target practice. I do quite a bit of deer hunting but, as a trophy hunter, seldom pull the trigger. I do wince at killing the best of the breed but understand that his genes are already distributed. I am teaching my 8 year old Grandson to be a woodsman but not to randomly shoot what he doesn't want to eat.

As Paul Harvey says; the rest of the story. I've seen starving deer herds in State Parks where no hunting was allowed. That's not pretty. I've also killed and walked away from sick or injured deer without respect for the letter of the law. I kill rattlesnakes and copperheads around the house or ponds but don't mess with them out in the brush. If a chicken hawk was getting my chickens (I don't have any), I would take action without regard to Federal law (Yep, it's illegal). If coyotes were getting my goats, I would take action. I'm not real impressed with the idea that "It's just nature". As the top of the food chain, I make all final decisions regarding the well being of livestock, wildlife and fish on my land or in my ponds. The government isn't here looking out for me.

I know guys that kill every rattlesnake, coyote, fox, skunk, armadillo and possum they see. That's their business and none of mine.

I also have a "feral" dog management program. Please keep Fifi or Fido at home.

I'm sure that coyotes take fawns and, if nature gets out of balance, I consider it my job to take corrective action. Taking that action is a man sized job without the use of traps, nooses, and poison.

Some areas of Texas have too many deer and those counties allow the killing of 5 per season. However, in those counties, few hunters take that many. A lot of hunters are looking to kill something/anything with antlers. OK, those guys are part of the problem instead part of the solution. The successful landowner who leases his hunting rights assures that hunters take the prescribed number. I seem to have a balanced deer herd and I figure coyotes may be partially responsible for that. Anytime I start seeing a lot of deer, I wonder if I am going to have a problem. Without coyotes, I would have to crop some deer. I wonder what the recruitment/survival rate of coyote pups is. Some of my fondest memories is watching coyotes stalk their prey. I could learn a lot from those guys.

Bottom line? Two things: Mama Nature is a mean bitch on both predator and prey. I could care less about what PETA or other dang fools think.

GW, I wasn't aiming at you. Just expressing my feelings about nature and my own "nature". I understand and can relate to your outlook.

I put PETA and people who use wildlife as targets in the same basket.

Well, I love animals about as much as anyone, so I guess I should put my .02 in. I believe as long as you THINK, and don't kill indiscriminately, then you will usually do the right thing. Before I so much as kill a bug or snake, I stop and think. It gets me out of the "automatic kill mode", and sometimes I reconsider.

The topic was coyotes, and it has moved a bit toward the general. 20 years ago, there were no coyotes in my area. They have expanded their range tremendously with the help of man. I guess they thrive on road kill, Sparkie, Fluffy, and occasional livestock. We have tipped the balance of nature, and the coyotes are coming in to restore it. Since it is us that brought the coyotes in, we're not changing the balance of nature by taking them out. We're just delaying it. I believe anyone in my area has a right to prosecute and persecute them should they be a threat. I think a high powered rifle is generally the most humane way to do it. Even if you miss, they are smart and get the message. I think traps and poison are inhumane, and should be used only as a last resort.

Here's more information about something I mentioned early, taste aversion. It's hard for me to understand why there isn't more interest in this approach. It seems to me like it is a low cost and effective way to minimize predation on livestock.

A quick review; you take pieces of whatever livestock you want to protect and use it as bait. It doesn't need to be from your stock, just the same species. You inject it with an odorless, tasteless compound that will make the predator sick shortly after eating the bait. The predator pukes it's guts out and learns that this prey is bad. It then teaches it's offspring to avoid that prey.

My girl Cindy told me about this when I brought up coyote control. She recalled a video that she had seen about a taste aversion experiment. The video was related to wolves that had been conditioned this way with mutton. After the wolves had been conditioned the researchers added live sheep to the enclosure. At first the sheep were scared and huddled in a corner. Then they noticed that the wolves were not stalking them and were even doing their best to avoid them. Cindy said that in the end the sheep were chasing the wolves around the pen. I should mention that Cindy has been a Veterinarian for almost 20 years. She graduated with the highest grade in her class (a gpa of 3.99).

Why in the world are people not looking into this more?

That's interesting GW, and it gave me a big chuckle. Wonder if that would work on water turkeys and GBH?

Birth control could also be a possible solution, but more long term and expensive I guess.

"Quote" Why in the world are people not looking into this more? "Unquote"


GW I have found that most people don't look at the logical approch on most things. If it seams to be a good idea somhow it gets overlooked.


I have had problems with predators as well and I don't like to kill or have killed any animal that is just doing what comes natural. But you have to find ways to keep your property safe. If you do all you can to keep them safe and nothing else will work sometimes you have no choice. As you have said you don't have livestock and it may be if you did you might think a little different. But for the most part I will try to do what can be done without killing, case in point, we had a coon kill some chickens, we found out where it was getting in and put in a live trap, sure enough we caught it. We took it to another part of the woods, several miles away and turned it loose, as a matter of fact it had a metal ring from a can around its neck and we cut that off as well. However, we have killed a dog that was terrorizing the neighborhood, after it attacked one of our dogs in our front yard. The neighbor that owned the dog would not do any thing to keep it at home and it was one of the large white dogs, GP.
So where do you draw the line? DO you allow animals, wild or not, to kill and or maime yours simply because its nature?? I agree with you in that it would be better to find ways to stop the problem without killing, however nature will find a way to keep going and taking a "few" problem animals out of the picture will not cause a major drop of predators.

GW, Thanks for the suggestion on taste aversion and I may try that as part a over all plan of defense for long term protection.During the short term I don't think I could afford the learning period. In the short term I will continue shooting, trapping and feeding the secret family recipe since poising is "illegal "

Taste aversion is an interesting idea and I like the experiment. I can see it working as long as no other coyotes move into the neighborhood. Or, as long as nothing happens to the teacher.

J. Frank Dobie wrote a durn good book about coyotes. Check it out.

...Roadrunner, too.

It's nice to see some interest in alternative approaches. Just to be clear I'm going to repeat that I don't have a problem with killing predators if it fits some logical management plan.


Dr.Lowell K. Nicolaus has done a lot of research about conditioned taste aversion (CTA). He published an article on the web to counter all the disinformation that was going around about CTA. He did his best to write the article for regular people. A link to the article is at the bottom of this post. Here's a few quotes:

ARTICLE

Quote: "taste aversion. It's hard for me to understand why there isn't more interest in this approach. It seems to me like it is a low cost and effective way to minimize predation on livestock."

Answer: Cause 30-06 shells are cheaper than steaks.

Quote: "I do quite a bit of deer hunting but, as a trophy hunter, seldom pull the trigger."

Reality: if you hunt for trophy's your no better than the folks that kill every coyote they see and hang there trophies on the fence corners to show them off.

Sorry I couldn't resist. I know you guys are having a somewhat serious discussion so I'll be democratic about it and tee off both sides.


If you guys start discussing the death penalty and Human predators & pray I'll try to be more serious.

I can't get to serious about this subject cause I raise longhorns and they don't put up with predators. And yes I trophy hunt too. Problem is all my trophies get a case of the dreaded ground shrinkage decease.

:D funny gee-dub

whereas i "fixed" a pond in bedrock that still leaks, in a desert-like environment w/ no summer water, stock GSF as top predator, and run around and chase grasshoppers in the water. hey what can i say?, i thought this was normal behavior.

GW SORRY TO UPSET YA BUT I BELEAVE A MAN HAS TO DO WHAT HE HAS TO DO TO PROTECT HIS LIVELYHOOD FROM WHAT EVER THRET MAY COME BE IT MAN OR BEAST.
I AM OLD SCHOOL IN A NEW SCHOOL WORLD AND CHANGE COMES TO ME SLOW IF AT ALL.
THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND KINDNESS YOU AND THE OTHERS HAVE SHOWN ME BY..............

I wanna see what gee dub does when those overgrown goggleyes, attack his prize black swans.

Lets Rodeo, you dont have to apologize for your thoughts. I'm still laughing at the whatever taste aversion; it may work in pens and a controlled situation, but if they dont eat your livestock, enough of them will eat something. I DO like the idea of goat pieces spiked with birth control. BTW "They shoot horses, dont they?"

Careful GW. I know you are kidding but personal comments about others can cause problems.

That's about right; the coyotes get reparations; I get neutered or poisoned. I'm ready for another round of 'puns intended'.

I apologize to letsrodeo if my attempt at good natured teasing offended.

RT, I guess I should have said that I haven't pulled the trigger in years. Also, ground shrinkage is never a problem for me. Over the years, I've turned into a lousy shot. Yeah, I know. I need to practice more. Don't tell my Grandson. He thinks I'm perfect.

My most memorable moment was when I killed a really big bull elk in Northern Arizona. It meant that I no longer had to climb mountains, sleep on the ground and freeze my tail off. It took 5 years.

GW, I like the idea of behavior modification and my wife has been trying it on me for years. It has had limited results but I find that it has not dulled her enthusiasm to get me house broken or even litter box trained. Sure glad that she hasn't tried to get me to eat mutton. Asparagus is bad enough.

I doubt that I would try taste aversion on coyotes. Why? I'm a predator and enjoy fighting alligators more than I do draining the swamp. Like LetsRodeo, I'm also "old World".

An interesting story: About 25 years ago, I used to hunt on a small ranch in Central Texas. He raised some of the meanest Brahma cows that I've ever run into. I found it best to avoid them. One morning, I found some fence down but saw no tracks on the other side of the fence. I quit hunting and headed to the house to get tools and materials to fix it. The old Rancher asked what I was going to do and I told him. He said "Aw heck Son, those cows won't get out". I asked why not? He said that if a cow got out, he took it to auction and got rid of it. When he saw my puzzled look, he explained that he was raising beef and had no interest in training cows. It seemed to work and I've never forgotten old John Martin. This follows the old stock market adage of selling at the point of sleeping. If something keeps you awake at night, get rid of it.

GW, mine was a pint of 100 proof Smirnoff at 17 YOA. I haven't touched vodka since that day.

Those of us that are "Old School" might change our tools but not our experiences.

I may be wrong but... I thought "old school" was Kill them all and let God sort them out.
Sorry I couldn't resist. :p

My taste aversion happened with Tequila when I was fourteen.

Couldn't touch it for years, but I'm glad to say that it's all good now twenty four years later.

What's the life span of a coyote?

The average life span of coyotes is five to six years in the wild

With CTA the coyotes will pass the habit of avoiding the target livestock on to future generations. At least that's how I interpret the data.

Things are getting a little dicey up in here.

I was thinking of deleting the whole thread, george, but there IS a lot of interesting info herein.

Just like in high school, sophomores need to learn not to mess with seniors.

Better behavior, please, gentlemen.

Taste aversion works great...on one or two animals. The thought of using it on packs of coyotes is IMHO, purt-near impossible, cost and application wise. The only reasonable control is to kill coyotes enmass and the rapid reproduction and lower deer population will re-balance in a year or two. As a matter of opinion, (if the golf course deer were the main food source), I believe killing the coyotes rapidly is MUCH more humane than allowing them to starve slowly.
My $.02.

Hi Rainman, I agree with you about reducing any wild population when it represents intelligent wildlife control.

Your statements indicate that you have had direct experience with CTA. Since your experience is contrary to the research done by Dr. Nicolaus it would be nice if you would share the details with us. He and other scientists published carefully controlled experiments that determined CTA does work and unless your experience involves an equally scientific approach it doesn't carry much weight.

I don't know Dr. Nicolaus any better than I know you, but he has 44 referenced studies to back up his position.

One day a couple of years ago I noticed that my neighbors Angus cows were very upset and moving into a circle pushing the calves into their circle. Then I saw the reason.... 5 coyotes.

I sent my wife to the house to get my trusty .308. I killed 2 of them before they decided to leave the cows & calves alone that day. Strangely enough when the first one was hit they didn't even look to see what was happening. They were still trying to get a calf. When the 2d one went down they al took off.

Last summer I heard my doberman raising hell. I was busy and didn't go to see what all the commotion was about. It was later that I realized that one of my Jack Russells was missing. In the next 3 days I killed 2 coyotes from a blind I made in my back yard.

I haven't seen any around the house since. I know that doesn't mean they aren't around. I think instead of taste aversion they have found a place to avert.

GW, I don't think it's so much about whether it would work. I think it's more about who's going to create the program, pay for it, administer it, and do the actual leg work. The Devil is in the details, as they say.

Maybe coyotes are a bad example. They're just too smart and adaptable, and I think it's impossible to stop their range expansion. Long term, they adapt to any deterrent, and nothing can completely stop them. I guess a great pyranese or similar dog is the most humane solution. The choice boils down to feeding 1 huge dog, or a bunch of little dogs.

I believe wolves were what originally held coyotes out of most of North America, leaving them in the hot/arid areas where we are used to seeing them chase Road Runners (smaller bodies = easier heat dissipation ???). Removal of wolves, which cannot live in close proximity to man, has left a huge expanse of territory open to Wile E.'s friends & relatives, who have no trouble making a living in the 'burbs and more open cities (i.e. JHAP's SoCal).

As Jack_Flash stated, a similar thing was happening in the pasture behind my house except there weren't any calves, just steers. I would shine my spotlight out and they would have the steers herded into a circle. I can't imagine that 'yote could kill a full grown steer but what else could they be trying to do. I started off just throwing out a firecracker to scare them off. After about three times of being waken in the middle of the night from their yelping I'd had enough. I took this one from a little over 100yds with my .223. I've only seen 1 since so apparently they got the message.

I do know that if cattle ranchers here in NE are having a problem with coyotes killing calves that they can call the USDA ant they will send a up a sharp shooter in an airplane to thin the coyotes down. It is also legal in NE to carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle in large part so ranchers can deal with coyotes on their property. However, carrying a loaded shotgun in your vehicle is highly illegal in NE. NE residents also do not need a hunting permit to shoot coyotes and the yotes are legal to shoot year round. I'm just glad that our cold winters and periodic outbreaks of mange help keep the yote numbers in check around here.

...the only yote $.02 I got