If you have a healthy small bass population is there a big downside to having greenies in a sunfish pond? If so, what are they? I've read the bass will outcompete them so if there a few genes to hybridize what would be the overall effect? Also, I noticed some redbreast in my stock with the little bit longer ears that are very round like a bluegill. Will they interbreed with the other species??? I am sure of haveing a majority of cnbg then some redears, a few greenies, and a few redbreasts. I stocked some small greenies before I knew what I was doing:( but some appear to be of the opinion that this is not neccesarily a bad thing. I'd like to hear what you guys think so I know what I should do.

hey keith, there is a small minority (like 2 members out of over 3,600 ) that like the GSF only cause of how big they grow in our particular ponds. but i think you'll find the majority of pondmeisters who manage for big bass dont like them cause they have bigger mouths than other sunfish and compete with young bass for forage.

it all depends on yer objectives. mine is to have a diverse bream pond full of quality fish in my front yard, and i dont know if what i am doing will get me there, but i'm having fun trying, and will do it over if it doesnt pan out like i think.

as far as interbreeding, that's been discussed here a few places, and no one really knows....it happens in some ponds, and not in others. constantly murky water may be a contributing factor to interbreeding, and clear water may keep the species true (as dr. condello has suggested)

so are you one of the two? If you keep predator bass will the greenies get nice and big and will the genetic diversity help to creat some island of doctor moreau sunfish that are like two ponds? I have a 50ft diameter pit with many different big sunfish as my goal. Are the green ones good to eat too??? I do have some big greens in a aquarium and trying to decide if I should throw them in the pond since there are already little ones.

busted.....

i love the GSF. pound for pound the best sporting fish in a pond IMHO, and yes, as table fare they rank right up there with all the other lepomis.

i live near a ranch pond that has only lmb and GSF. the lmb are overpopulated and mostly stunted and the GSF reach over 12-inches and well over 1 pound, maybe 2 lb. the average size caught is a very FAT 8-10 inches. i stocked some of these lunker GSF last year, and they spawned, i have YOY sunnies this year, but dont know if any adults survived.

here is a pic of one the adult stockers:



before you let me talk you into filling yer pond with GSF, you might want to hear some other opinions.......

Kieth there is a fair amount of info on BG and GSF and HBG their cross. There is more info also on the various lepomis and their crosses. Here is a long thread with pics on HBG and BG and GSF crosses.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439

Many (almost all) Centrarchid fish (bass , lepomis and crappie) have some ability to cross (there are a couple of exceptions). Their viability after birth is good in many crosses but not good in some others. It is often hard to tell about crosses especially their % of one lepomis or the other ( ie 25 % BG , 50% GSF and 25% RES). Looking at the gill rakers is a common method of id but is not easy.




TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES by DANIEL I. BOLNICK AND THOMAS J. NEAR :


" The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides 3 (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa."






This is a start. Lets see where it goes from here.

That clears it right up for me :rolleyes:

ewest's first (eye) chart shows various pairs of Centrarchid species and the compatibility (viability) of these crosses and reciprocal (sexes reversed) crosses. IIRC these were all laboratory crosses using stripped milt and row; in the wild, factors such as geography, coloration, and behavioral differences preclude most of these crosses from ever occurring.

Note the high viability of such commonly used crosses as BGxGSF and Northern LMBxFlorida LMB. Most of the intra-genus crosses (e.g. LepomisxLepomis and MicrolophusxMicrolophus) exhibit high compatiblity.

The second "family tree" chart shows the relationship between the various Centrarchidae with the estimated divergence points (how long ago) between different species. In general, the longer two species have been separated, the less viable crosses between them are.

------------------------------------------------

If I were interested in keeping several different species of Lepomis in a pond, I would not have a problem with including GSF as long I was going to use a LMB (and/or other predator) heavy management approach.

I'm the other GSF fan. I don't really consider them a problem. Their more elongated shape make them pretty easy for bass to control. Now, in a sunfish only pond, it goes back to your goals.

My Grandson caught one the other day that could only be considered a trophy by D.I.E.D. and I. I put it back in.

DD1, too bad you didnt get a pic of that Hurst & Bowie TX trophy sunny, would have liked to see that.

we cant forget my friend mr. jeffhasapond......so that makes 3 out of 3,600

interesting note about lmb being able to easily control them....this is VERY true in the ranchpond to the point where you absolutely cannot see (or catch) any other size GSF except the big ones....all smaller year classes are decimated, however there must exist those very few individuals that hide in the weeds and escape predation to become lunkers.

from what i've seen, by themselves, GSF are insufficient forage for a bass pond. throughout the year all the ranchpond lmb have bellies full of their own fry or YOY (or frogs when in season). conversely, in a sunfish pond, my guess is that GSF dont cut it as the top predator, couldnt keep up w/ BG production, and as theo says, you'll need that higher end predator like lmb....i'm going to try out spotted bass in my little experiement.

well then fine, I will roll ahead with some greenies and keep my plan for the LMB. Now, are there any differences in taste between gsp, cnbg, and resf???? I want the tastiest ones.

oh, and newbie question, what are YOY, year old something?

YOY = Young Of the Year

I can't recall anyone noting a difference in taste between any of the Lepomis species; I've never noticed a difference with BG, HBG, and RES. There's probably a larger variation from body of water to body of water than from species to species.

ahhh keith....a collective groan from 3,597 PB forum members.......hey just kidding......i think the point is like ewest has said many times, its YOUR pond, do what YOU want to do, and have fun along the way........

my only caution would be to learn as much you can like i am trying to do, and it appears what you are trying to do just by being here....good move .....and good luck sir.

I knew those charts would elicit a collective groan. You should try reading the outstanding study.

Thanks DIED. Learn all you can and do it your way because it is, after all, your pond. Always , always enjoy the journey. Good advice.

All lepomis that I know of have a known propensity to stunt except RES. Control by a predator is needed to keep a balanced population. On the scale of stunting at small size among the most common lepomis I rank GSF first (worst) followed by PS second and then BG and then RES (at 0 to min.). You can grow them all to their genetic potential in the right situation. In a mixed pond it should get very interesting. I would sure like to see the results.

Keith, I'm a green sunfish fan but only as a part of the sunfish population. Since they only spawn once per year, I don't consider them a problem. However, if these suckers spawned like bluegill, I wouldn't want them.

I think of the green sunfish as just another member of the population and neither good nor bad. I can definitely tell when I hook a good one. I think they outfight a BG.

I'm one of the majority...I dislike GSF, but will admit they fight much harder than BG, CNBG, & RES. I only dislike them because they degrade the gene pool over time into a bunch of mutant fish...if you have native BG & CNBG present. Just like the controversial Georgia Giants, mixed populations like that degenerate over time. The heron introduced a few GSF into my pond (another controversial topic)

However, I'm in the 2% minority when it comes to Crappie...I love them ! Let them eat all the YOY of any species they want...my tilapia will soon outnumber just about everything, creating an unlimited buffet for all !

Now, what do you want to eat...a GSF, or Crappie

A couple years ago I had the opportunity to stock a small 1/5 acre pond and contacted Texas A&M for opinions. The pond was only 3 or 4 feet deep at it deepest point. They actually reccomended that I stock only hybrid green sunfish if we were interested in ever having fish to consume. They said that Bluegill would overpopulate the pond within a year and the end result would be many 2-3 inch fish. They also mentioned that green sunfish were extremely drought and heat tolerant and that they are one of the few species that can survive in small ditches in 100+ degree Texas heat. My experience is that Texas A&M views most fish subjects from the harvest aspects. They actually suggest that you stock the pond, grow the fish and catch them all for consumption and then start over again. They suggest this for catfish as well.

I ended up putting every type of perch I could find - 5 different species plus 3 or 4 Warmouths that I caught in an area lake. The fishing was phenomenal for the first 18 months with bluegill the highest number caught but the green sunfish were by far the largest.

The past 2 years have been bad droughts in our area and the pond level went down to about 2 feet deep last summer and I noted a frequent vistor to that pond - a blue heron. Late last summer I did catch some fish...nearly all large green sunfish. I have no idea what is left in that pond now believing that the heron probably consumed many - but will look forward to seeing now that the weather is warming. Based on my limited experience, I think that green sunfish only in this small pond would actaully be a pretty darn good idea, especially for a small pond in climates like Texas.

I used to toss GSF on the bank when I caught them. Then, I noticed their elongated body. Just what a predator needs. With a low spawning rate, they can't add much to the forage base but I've just not seen them become a problem as a predator. I see no way they can effectively compete with other predators. If they clobber an occasional YOY bass, that's not much loss and BG can drastically outspawn them.

Without a proper bass base, BG can get out of control just like the bass themselves can. Anytime I see too many GSF or BG, I can bet that the pond doesn't have enough bass or EFFECTIVE predators. This stuff has to be PROPERLY balanced between predator and prey. And that goes back to goals regarding stocking and management plans.

Captain, I expect you still have some BG. I think you have just about as much chance of erradicating them as you do fire ants.

I'm with Eastland on both counts.

I have never actually seen a pond ruined by GSF, but fear their genetics creeping in.

I HAVE seen a couple of ponds ruined by their cousin the longear sunfish. They breed like flies, and 6" is a big one. GSF, maybe. Longears? Panic time! Shoot the heron, drain the pond, start over.

Thanks for all the advice and different views!!! Now that I think about it when I fish in our creek I catch more gsf than bg. Maybe they are a better creek predator since in our creek I've only seen one very small bass and it tends to dry up every other year except for the deepest holes. There haven't been any fish to speak of in my creek yet this year, atleast not many. I guess the water is still warming up. I tried worms under a bobber in the creek the other day for some additional pond stock but couldn't get hit, even by the snags in the holes. Our creek is one of the feeders to lake lavon if anyone is familiar with the area. It is called pilot grove creek. I'll try to get a screen grab of our property. I with I could make my own lake out of that creek, I tell you what:)

maybe this will work. Our land starts in the bottom left and the border stairsteps to the top right. All the trees are our as we have the biggest stand of woods for quite a ways around us. The bottom border is straight along the botom and the right border is winding pilot grove creek. the pond is to the mid right. I've been trying to put out feed for wild pigs, fish, hunt, and anything I can think of for the last 13 years out there. I'm afraid the city will swallow us and we will have to find a new piece of land one day.

GREEN SUNNIES!!!! I likes my green sunnies. Can you tell that I'm the third member of the Green Sunfish Fan Club?

Like DIED I have sunfish soup in my pond. I purchased my property with an existing old pond. There had never (as far as I can tell) been any pond management of any sort. My pond had Large Mouth Bass (stunted) and Green Sunfish in it already. I have what I would call a healthy population of GSF.

I agree with DIED, pound for pound, I think GSF have got to be one of the most agressive fighting fish. They will hit a lure like a freight train and fight like crazy. Mine love a "bumble bee" top water lure or a "Rooster tail" lure. Compared to other sunfish of a similar size they have HUGE bass-like mouths.

My pond is a perfect illustration that the GSF by itself will not provide a forage base sufficient to support a healthy bass population. The bass will stunt. That is exactly why I added Bluegill and RES. Actually I added the BG for forage base and the RES to eat the annoying snails.

What will the effect of trying to maintain GSF, BG and RES in a pond with LMB? I'll tell you in a couple of years. I posted my concerns about hybridization and it seemed to me that the general consensus was that since the various sunfish spawn at different temperatures and as long as your water was not completely murky the likely hood of genetics destruction is not very high. Seems like common sense. Could there be some hybridization - - sure, will this cause each of the populations to deteriorate into a mongrel fish - - unlikely. But I'm no expert so don't quote me. I'm just a numbers monkey trying to have fun with my pond.

took 20 something nice ones out today (15cnbg, a few pumpkin seed, 2 redear and two green)and with all the small and medium I already had I think I have a good base of all sizes. Saw a turle and a bunch of baby crawfish on the bank edge and haven't seen them(the fish) take the floating food yet, maybe they are getting plenty with the baby crawdads and bugs??? They are used to bread at the pond they came from. can we throw our old bread in????

Keith, you could but fish need high protien. Bread is mostly a filler. I doubt that it would hurt them but it is pretty useless stuff.

Gotcha, just didn't wanna kill the little fellers.

To show the intensity of just what GSF genetics will do in a pond, the first picture below shows the intense heat being generated around the gills as this fish exhibits its anger at the audacity of me catching it. And this is not even a pure GSF, but a hybrid with some much more docile BG genetics.

But I talked it down before something really bad happened to me. I told the angry sunfish that its picture would be proudly displayed in the hallowed halls of the Pond Boss Forum.

The second picture showed the intense gill heat subsided, allowing me to angle another day with all my fingers and limbs intact.

I think the brighter color means that it is trying to sucker you into putting a finger close enough to bite.

When that guy gets a little bigger, you'll be wishing for chain mail gloves on both hands when you unhook him.

Look at that face! I think if you bent down a little closer it would jump up and slap you! Was it feeding time? I look similar when I'm pulled away from a meal...it's obvious its been eating well. lol

"Their more elongated shape make them pretty easy for bass to control. Now, in a sunfish only pond, it goes back to your goals. "

Many years ago I had permission to fish a large ranch in Oklahoma. The ponds on the ranch that I fished all had GSF and none that I fished had bluegill. Most ponds also had large populations of small bass. A typical green sunfish was comparable in weight to a typical bass or perhaps a bit heavier. There was one pond (about 1/3 acre) that had no bass. Even so it had many harvest size GSF greater than 8". This would never happen in a bluegill only pond but 8" GSF have a large enough gape to consume 2" YOY GSF. Maybe equivalent to a 6" bass for gape but having much greater weight (and consumption needs). With enough of them, GSF can control themselves.

Here is the catch. If you harvest them, the average size of the population will decline. At least that was my experience where I had great fishing for a year or two before the big ones were not replacing themselves sufficiently to control recruitment. I realized it was my harvest that caused the decline and I sought to correct it by moving a dozen 8-10 in bass in the fall. The next Spring those bass had grown to ~ 13" and were much larger than the average bass of the pond from which they came. I released all bass that day and it was the last time I fished that pond due to moving to another state. Today I would bet that it is more like the typical pond in the area where there are small bass and nice GSF. That seems to be the trend with the combination in that neck of the woods. These are very productive fisheries however and it isn't bad combination if one likes to keep LMB 10+ " and 8" plus GSF for eating. These ponds are able to sustain heavy cropping of these classes of fish and are fun to fish.

Been giving some thought as to perhaps why GSF might make growing trophy LMB more difficult in combination with BG. They might reduce the efficiency of the food chain when they consume YOY BG. GSF might only gain 1 oz for every 5 oz of BG. That 1 oz when the GSF is eaten by a LMB will only grow ~ .2 oz of LMB. They might highjack the food chain so to speak (like a production tax) reducing the efficiency by which the BG can feed the LMB.

GSF are able to consume GSF YOY at much longer lengths than BG can consume BG YOY. This may be at least one reason as to why BG are better producers of food for LMB. GSF can also spawn multiple times but at 2" don't exceed the gape of 7" GSF. On the other hand, I have observed 2" BG just hanging around >9" BG with no apparent fear. In comes a LMB of the same length and they keep their distance.

With panfish as a goal they might not interfere if LMB are able to recruit well enough to keep the LMB size structure concentrated with <12" LMB. I've seen LMB recruit in high numbers in the presence of GSF but the ponds were weedy and that may be the difference. One of the best BG ponds I've ever fished is right below my Dad's house in OK. I have never fished it that I didn't catch at least 2 BG or BG X GSF that exceed 10". So at least in its case, GSF might improve panfishing for BG.

A gsf is a cross or mutt. I like them. They only spawn once per year and, especially in the presence of bass are unlikely to over run a pond. They can’t keep up with bg multiple spawns and cause damage.

I’ve often asked what happens when this mutt back crosses, over several generations, with other sunfish? Do they also only spawn annually?

A couple of years ago I caught a huge one, probably 11 inches, and that guy/gal is the biggest sunfish I’ve ever caught. The only gsf I saw in it was the green area on the jaws. The rest was pure bg. They fight, when hooked, differently than bg.

I've heard multiple times that GSF only spawn once a year, and that may be true, but what I see in mine is their spawn doesn't seem to be influenced as greatly by moon fazes like BG. I've got GSF on beds that have been there since the first part of May. I've only seen them move off twice, and both times was due to the shallows cooling off. As soon as it warms back up, they're right back on the bed. At this rate, theyll spawn all summer.

I've always liked fishing for GSF so I would have to say that I like the fish as well . As to multiple spawns, I have read conflicting information about it. I think it can depend on climate, fish condition, and water condition. I finally settled that it might be common in the South when I read this from the Texas Parks and Wildlife.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/species/greensunfish/

I agree jpsdad. I put three 10-12" LMB in my mutt pond a month or so ago. NOT because I wanted to raise big bass, but as a control measure against overpopulation. I see them regularly harassing the "perch" and expect that they will eventually get to a size that warrants removal. Hopefully, the GSF will allow at least minimal recruitment of LMB so I don't have to restock larger ones later. I hope if I can somewhat control the perch #s, I'll benefit with decent sized BG, GSF and RES.

Time will tell I guess.

Count me in the minority - I like the GSF. I now have a pond full of mutant GSF/RES crosses....jury is still out on the growth potential but they sure are fun to catch.

Much easier to catch than pure RES too.

Mike,

You only transferred 3 LMB so LMB recruitment depends in part on whether you have both sexes. Alot will depend on whether the panfish harass a spawning attempt sufficiently to ruin it. Here is what I can assure you of. If you do nothing from here and those 3 bass are all females, you will grow some huge bass. You may be reporting lengths of 18" next year this time and high RW. Harvest one of them and in a 1/4 acre pond you might grow one of the two remaining to >10 lbs.

With large panfish as a goal, a few more LMB might improve the chances of an LMB spawning success next year.

I am curious as to what works best as fishing methods to catch this cross. Some literature describes them still retaining a tendency eat snails and also utilizing the pelagic areas. dlowrance, I would very much like to see a color photo of your hybrids so I might understand what they look like in color.


Illinois did some research on RES male X GSF female as parental stocking and the results were remarkable blowing away all prior attempts to maximize harvest yields. I seem to have lost the link (though have the paper) ... I found the link here at pondboss and it may have been ewest that posted it.

Just located it ... numerous websites sell it but it is public domain ... some authors expressly forbid their papers to be resold.

https://tinyurl.com/yalrwns6

I know it's possible that they all be ladies, but I've got a 33.36% chance that one of them is male...lol. I waited until after the spawn to get them on purpose so they could feed up and get acclimated well before next spring. I see the largest of them regularly. It looks really good and appears to be even broader than when I put it in the pond already. I plan to add maybe 3 more between now and early fall, so my odds of getting a male in the mix goes up a little bit. As I said, they weren't stocked to be trophies, I already have an 8# LMB and 7-2 SMB on the wall. They're strictly crowd control. So far they're doing a fine job. I don't intend to let them get too big as their purpose in life is to thin out the little ones so the bigger perch can get even bigger.

Mike, I originally suggested some odds based on sex probabilities but I was sure that I was wrong so I edited it out. After thinking about it I think the approach would be to determine the probability that all fish are the same sex (either male OR female). If 1 fish the probability is 100%, if 2 fish the probability is 50%, for 3 fish the probability is 25%. The probability that the 3 fish sample is two sexes then is the remaining probability. So even with only 3 fish you stand a 75% chance that you have two sexes. If you add 3 additional fish the probability will increase to ~96.8% that you have both sexes and those are excellent odds .

It will be interesting to know how big your original stockers get by this time next year.

wow! an eleven year old thread! awesome

Some excellent work in this thread on GSF.

One spawn pre year does not mean only one spawning time. Some may spawn in May and others in June but different fish. The are good studies on BG that were followed and studied both visual (boat or wading) and underwater (by by divers). Sometimes we refer to rolling spawns and there are several threads using that name.

Also fish may be driven off the beds (deferred spawn)and retain eggs and spawn later. That is still one spawn.

In my little pond the answer to 'what will catch them' is darn near anything. They don't have much in the way of predators yet (WE is the only predator I stocked, but unfortunately I had one LMB spawn....so there's a bunch of small LMBs). They definitely still focus on 'snail' type shapes, just ask my kids when they swim in there - moles and nipples are just beat UP if they float for more than a few seconds.

I'll do my best to take some pics this weekend - ewest asked me for some weeks ago and I've been slacking in that area. I'll start a new thread with a bunch of pics ASAP.

No doubt about that! They're a TON easier to catch....and their growth rate seems better than either species alone. So far I'm really liking that cross. Except when I go swim in the pond.....need to start wearing a wetsuit....

I fish 90% of the time for BG (or hybrids or GSF), maybe 5% for RES and the rest for bass. Probably half to two thirds of the time I fish for pan fish this is the bait I use.
Berkley Gulp Alive Waxie

John F turned me on to these. Occasionally I will use white or the Gulp maggots or worms just to switch it up, but most of the time these waxies pull in one BG right after another. 1/32 or 1/64 oz jig for a hook (they do not swallow the jigs as bad as regular hooks). I catch RES on these too.

As far as hybrids biting this is my experience. GSF and hybrids with GSF genes are more aggressive than BG towards biting something on a hook. If the bite is difficult I will catch a disproportionate number of GSF and HBG. As soon as I start fishing a spot it is not uncommon that three fourth of the first several fish caught will be HBG or GSF. Then I go to catching almost all BG.

If a person fished my pond and stopped at 6 fish he might swear all I had in the pond were HBG and GSF. But in reality they probably comprise less than 5%. They are just that much more aggressive to bite.

I like HBG. If it is a bad fishing day (rare but I do have them) the HBG and a few GSF will nearly always oblige.

Jpsdad,
I had to read your post on percentages 3 times before I caught your logic (I was about to call you out for using common core math!). I do plan on adding at least a couple more LMB before fall in hopes of an at least minimally successfull LMB spawn so those minor leaguers can be kept in their place.
To answer your question about how big they'll be by this time next year is...over 15" is getting culled. I may change my mind by then tho if this biggest bass shows tendencies to become a bruiser. But I won't keep but 1 BIG fish. They'll eat all my better perch.

Eric,
I was considering a rolling spawn as I knew not all fish go on the bed at the same time, but I swear I've been watching at least 5 males guarding for over 6 weeks now. It's a good thing they at least sample some of the feed I throw at them. I lost one of my biggest GSF recently because he wouldn't eat ANYTHING. I'm guessing it was at least 7". That being said, I do have a new crew of playboys doing their thing as well, but they're smaller fish. I can keep a close eye on most of them as my spawning area is really limited and visibility is around 3'. I'm not sure just how deep either species will spawn, but the GSF have an affinity for having their dorsal fins breaking water. Both GSF and BG right next to each other. This bunch of BG appear to be mostly around 4". My bigger bulls must have decided to sit this full moon out.

I can attest to the aggressiveness of GSF too!! I just got thru feeding and my 10" common snapping turtle decided he was gonna stroll thru the spawning ground, just looking for a missed pellet here and there. That was a BIG MISTAKE on his part. Poor guy got seriously abused. I mean "In your face" abuse!!!

The thread has really come alive

Mike, you think it took you a while? LOL. Took me a while too and I was worried I didn't word the explanation well. If I can think of a better approach for describing the probabilities I will do edits but would also appreciate anyone providing an explanation with better wording. Mathematically, the probability of a single sex is the probability of only males PLUS the probability of only females. I can expand on that if anyone is interested but it eventually soaks in ... like it did with Mike and myself.

Eric, I see what you are saying. An extended spawning season isn't multiple spawns.

Thanks to John and Dale for sharing the fishing techniques and Dale, with regard to the photos, if you are able to identify male from female RESxGSF, it would be a little more than great to see examples of both.

I don't know what the ratio of male to female LMB would be in a wild environment, but that could also contribute to the odds in this case as well, as thats where these all came from.

Just came back up from the pond ( I spend way too much time there, lol). Noticed a couple of small Longears setting up shop. Dang I got a mess of mutts!!

I wonder what would happen if a GSF ever crossed with a LMB. Talk about one mean sucker!!

A teenage muttant Basseenie?

Mike, this cross has been performed in the lab and I've tried to find an example of what one may look like but so far haven't found an image.

You're right Eric; this is a good thread, starting in 2007, and indicates a change in the thinking about GSF. Remember the first PB get together at D/FW Airport a bunch of years ago when Lusk said "What's the problem with Green Sunfish?" The silence was deafening. Until then, I had been tossing them on the bank thinking they would ruin my pond. Those were the embryonic days of pond knowledge and management.

I thought I knew what I understood fish and ponds but that meeting told me that I had no idea what I was doing. After 30 years, I'm still learning that I'm mostly a student and an often wrong. But, I no longer fret about it.

Are these the dreaded GSF?

Pond Perch. Other than goldfish, this is the best live bait to use for catfish in the Mississippi River as they handle the currents much better and live longer. And before the internet police triangulate my coordinates, goldfish are legal to use as bait in the Mississippi River. At least here in Mississippi anyways.

Yep, that's the dreaded GSF.

Seems if they were such huge trash fish as they have always been treated, there wouldn't be so many crossbreed experiments and creations using them. Bout time they started getting the respect they deserve.

I'm waiting to hear about someone creating a GSF ONLY pond. I think they could basically police themselves.

Go greenies go!!

These made their way from the creek to the duck ponds, and now the little artesian pond. Will add one LMB if I can catch one.

d

My first 3 years on the property I live on I had a GSF only pond....it was the oldest of 3 ponds on the property (by a long shot - a 77 year old neighbor said he fished in it as a little guy) and also the smallest at 1/4 acre and probably 4' average depth. It was chock FULL of GSF.....my kids were just toddlers then but that pond got them interested in fishing....you could literally throw a bare hook out there 20 times and catch 20 GSF between 2-4". There were also some DANDIES in there in the 9+" range, but not a ton of them obviously.

I didn't notice the typical signs of stunting in there, perhaps because GSF don't SHOW the typical signs, I don't know. But I know that for a 'get kids to fish' pond, it was the best I'd ever seen. I ended up breaching the dam and adding that little neck as a cove in my big pond when I built it - but all the GSF went into the big pond. I still catch one every now and then, caught a beaut last weekend.

I have the same type story about taking my kids when they were in the single digit age range. A "perch" (that I now know are GSF) every cast faster than my wife and I could get them off the hooks. Small maybe quarter acre pond I doubt much deeper than four or five feet.

They are tenacious little buggers. In my 1/20th acre forage pond I raise RES, GS (used to have FHM) and recently put some SMB in there. But it was contaminated somehow with a few GSF. I have raised lots of RES fingerlings (something in excess of 600) and a considerable number of RESxGSF hybrids and also more GSF than I want. But I had the GSF pretty well fished out to the point I was hardly getting any GSF in minnow traps and through devoted fishing for them had removed almost all the adults. Key word being "almost". I had not put a minnow trap in this pond for quite some time and decided to the other day. I had been getting lots of RES fingerlings via cast net but an occasional GSF fingerling also. Half hour later the minnow trap was a quarter full of GSF fingerlings. So now I have a couple traps I am running once or twice a day and the catch rate numbers are finally starting to thin down.

But I am taking the lemons and making lemonade. Decided this was the perfect chance to attract the CC and LMB around my dock for easy catching. I take the 30 or 40 2-3" GSF from the two traps each time to the dock, clip their tail and dorsal fins and sometimes one pec fin on the larger ones, and toss them in one at a time from the dock. Mostly I see nothing, but the smaller ones sometimes get attacked by the larger BG, but twice I saw a really fast flash too large for a BG nail them. So my plan is to keep doing this and maybe get some pet LMB or CC coming up to the dock as pets waiting for their GSF nugget.

For those interested in GSF here is another thread about them with loads of pictures.

100% GSF

And another:

GSF thread

I know this is an old topic but I too add GSF to my pond from a ditch that crosses the hwy near my home. They call them rice field slicks around here I have always heard that you don't want them in your pond by locals and what I read in the internet. Then I got to reading more on here and what Dave had said at the conference about why not. If a person is not worried about purebred sunfish genes and just want some fun fish to catch then put em in there. All goes back to what your goals are. My grandkids like it when we go to the concrete bridge to catch some fish.

I really like the hybrids (HBG and RESxGSF cross) in my main pond. When fishing gets tough the hybrids and the GSF come through. They bite like GSF but grow fast and get to decent size quicker than GSF.

When I catch small GSF in my main pond I cut the tail off and put them back for LMB and CC easy meals. Anything over about 8" I throw back to get bigger.

The big thing that GSF will mess up a fishery (in my area at least) is if they get established before the pond is properly stocked and promptly eat most of the fingerlings being stocked. In that situation they can be a real problem. I had an old pond with that problem and turned it around in less than two years but I had access from my main pond to advanced size BG and LMB to stock. The BG quickly out spawned the GSF and in two years became the dominant forage fish.

In most ponds with adequate predation like an established LMB/BG pond a few GSF will not create a big problem.