If you were going to plant a food plot of rye grass or winter wheat on twenty acres would you plow it? If you were going to plow it, what would you plow it with and to what extent? If you were not going to plow it would you bush hog it and then plant it? How much fertilizer per acre would you put out and how much seed?

james, that sounds like a large food plot. What you are asking is, how much work goes into preparing the seed bed? That would depend on the present condition of the land, ie-is it now bean stubble (less work) or is it pasture grass (perhaps more work), what type of equipment you are going to do the seeding with (there would not be many volunteers to help you hand seed 20 acres) and your expectations. The technical answer to how much fertilizer is to take soil samples but for a food plot of winter wheat I doubt you would require fertilizer for winter wheat in a pure food plot. I would think for 20 acres you would consult with a friendly local farmer (who would picture a plow as a plow and a disk as a disk but perhaps a harrow as a drag section).

I do like those winter grasses. Is that gainesville, as in Florida?

James, give me a call on my cell phone. I just finished last weekend. 817 832 4724. I'm sweating bullets over "bugs" commonly known as Army Worms.

New ground is usually naturally fertile. I've already made that mistake and burnt up my first wheat food plot quite a few years ago.

Rye ($$$$) is planted on top of the ground. However, the soil has to be loosened. Don't let anybody tell you that it is really perennial. I got a 60% return crop for several years until I had very little and then none at all. 60% of 60% of 60%

Wheat ($) and oats ($)have to be covered but the ground also has to be loosened. I tried that 50/50 combo and the oats did a lot better than the wheat in arid conditions. I have seldom really had oats freeze out. However, they each seem to have different growth spurts depending on temps.

It might be best to have the soil checked but it is getting late to do for this year. That is, if you're doing it to hunt over.

If you don't have good, fairly deep, ground moisture at planting time, forget it. It has a good chance of germinating and dieing. Want to bet on rain? OK, I'm doing it.

A good guy to talk to is Gary Connor of the NRCS in Gainesville. Talk to him real soon. As Snuffy Smith used to say "Balls o' fire. Times a' wastin.".

I've had good results from this co.

http://www.pogueagri.com/wildlife.htm

The BeeWild Bundleflower is amazing! Once established it will endure 2-3 months of no rain and quickly rebound. Everything "wild" seems to utilize it. It is a true perennial! I use it for edges on plots. The deer will graze for months.
edit doesn't like sand!

Interesting stuff Al. I wonder what the NA means on cold tolerance? James and I will get at least a couple of days with temps in the low teens.

They don't show a price on it. What did you pay for it?

This variety may be better:

http://www.texaslandscaper.com/resources/texas_plants/95.shtml

If I understand, BeeWild was developed for SOUTH Tx. I mixed some sunflowers and Have literally 1000's of doves right now. I was informed we had another HARD 4" rain Sun. evening and am trying to get down today to see if the pier is visible A couple meetings may get rearranged today.

We have done a few small ones on the farm we hunt. Usally the 1st time we work the ground we burn it with round-up. 20 acres would be alot of round up so I would probally plow it and then disc it a few weeks later after the grasses have died out. We have planted wheat and rye and usually cut them back in with the disc and pack them with the 4 wheeler, they turn out good enough for us. After about three years your food plot will be better than the first, at least our has. Hope this help.

Donnie

James, First thing I do is brush hog the field. I then use a 6 foot tiller to completely turn the soil. Most large feed stores will let you use their pull behind broadcast spreaders that they have on site if you buy your seed and fertilizer from them. I have them premix fertilizer and seed together and then they auger into spreader. After pulling the spreader with my pickup and braodcasting the seed, I come behind with my tiller at apprx. 1 inch deep and dust both seed and fert into ground. I planted oats and winter peas. Did ten acres, used 800 lbs of oats 100pds peas and 1000 pds of fert. This process works for me every time assuming it rains.

James,

Do like CSMITH above says and first cut any grass and weeds down as low as you can get them. After shearing, then prepare the ground for seeding. I don't have a large tiller, but do have access to a pasture renovator and it works great to prepare the field for seeding....in addition it will substantially improve grazing on the field next year. After seeding, go back over the field with a very light disc or something to get the seed in contact with the soil. Following seed germination, apply fertilizer.

Here is where you need soil test results...but if you can't get them, then use a 3-1-2 ratio of fertilizer and about 80 to 100 pounds of Nitrogen per acre.

Until the last couple of weeks, I was planning to do exactly the same as you...plant a 20 acre winter pasture. However, my hay crop came in much larger than I expected and I don't have to have the winter pasture now.

Here is a relevant article you might find interesting:

http://www.countryworldnews.com/Editorial/CTX/2005/ct1006pastures.html

If the grass is short and you have access to a grain drill you can simple over seed the land in one pass, and pray for more rain. You need to try and do this just before a rain or just after so you have the moisture to germinate the seed. Rye grass is generally very forgiving, unlike trying to get Bermuda started.

James,

This website may be helpful: http://www.wildlifemanagement.info/publications/wildlife_plantings_3.htm

It says "Southeast" but most of the info still applies to East Texas. One comment - 20 acres is A LOT for a first time planting for a wild life food plot. I have seen recommendation of 2% to 6% of your total acerage should be food plots. Most also recommend several small food plost vs. one large, I personally like 1 large plot. Are you planting the entire 20 acres?

I would mow then plow and (possibly lime), fertilize it, especially for a first time food plot.

If you buy seeds at a local supply store, they will recommend the rate and type of lime and fertilizer for your area or based on a soil test.

Gator

The weeds were pretty heavy on one place and bermuda was thick on another. I had to do a lot of steps.

I first mowed but needed to spray with Grazon. Just didn't have time. Next, I chiseled (tilled) and then disked. Then I spread the seeds 50/50 oats and wheat at the rate of 100 lbs. per acre. I have a 250 lb. seeder. Then disked again. Five steps.

Now, I'm praying for rain and cold enough weather to keep the worms off.

A guy that hunts an adjoining place inquired whether I would do some for them. No way. Done right, it takes a lot of time and effort.

And, like Cody Smith above says; assuming it rains. If I get a crop this year, it will be the first time in 4 years that drought or bugs haven't nailed me.

We have multiple smaller plots, they are built as fingers going away from our hunting blinds. As you can see, we could go 300 yds here, but we're not convinced the hunting would be any better for all the extra effort. Feeders run year round, they are already fat & happy. This plot was just seeded with oats, peas & clover, we had a really nice rainfall the following day. A nice high tine 10 pt. with 15' spread has already been spotted, really exciting this time of year.

James-

I'm in the process of planting a food plot over in Fannin County. I'm working with the NRCS and this is the recipe they gave me for a 1.5 acre plot: 45lbs. of wheat, 45lbs. of oats, 12lbs. of red ripper cow peas, and 12 lbs. of crimson clover. They suggested 300lbs. of 17-17-17 fertilizer to be disked in before seeding. Then spread the wheat, oats, and peas. Lightly disk these seeds after spreading, then spread the clover seeds on top with no further disking.
20 acres sounds like a lot. You may want to consider a few smaller plots in some strategic locations (along fencelines/game trails and near water and cover). Hope this helps (and I hope it works for me too!). By the way, I bought a Trophy Plotmaker in Bonham -- a little pricey, but does the job in a few easy steps...

Dan

Dan, what is a Trophy Plotmaker?

I use a process exactly like Csmith described. I use a tiller and boadcast spreader for all my seed and fertilzer. Works whether you are planting grasses, grains, beans or corn. One suggestion for saving the high cost if you want to plant rye is to simply buy rye grain. Don't buy rye seed, just feed grain. I pay about $7 per 100 pounds and it grows just fine. I plant it in August, is 6 inches tall right now. Will overwinter and produce grain next year. In the fall and winter the deer love it. During the latter half of summer until I till it under in August the game birds live in it and eat the seed. Works great and is cheap. In my area I find the deer like the rye much better than oats or wheat. I've tried them all.

http://trophyplotmaker.com/

Cappy_TX told me about it. Works like a dream, though the first time I used it I burned out a belt on my Mule. I had the disk set all the way down (wheels all the way up), and it was a heavy pull -- stupid city slicker! :rolleyes:

bz, I like that idea. Rye seed here is obscenely expensive. I believe I'll check into it for next year. Does it come from feed stores like the seed?

Dave, if you do it, you should only expect rye in Texas to be a cool-season annual, even if it's perennial seed.

Eastland, I'm wondering more about wheat and oats. The deer around my area prefer, in order of preference, oats, wheat and then rye. All of the planted cereal grains, even oats, but also corn in feeders, come in a very distant second to acorns and natural forbs. BTW, we do have wild rye but I've never seen any indication that the deer use it much.

However, the seed I bought this year was up in price by quite a bit. I paid about $7.75 per 50 lb. bag for wheat and $8.25 for oats. Over twice what BZ is paying for the much higher priced rye in my area. It generally costs me about 10% more to buy it by the bag but that allows me some flexibility regarding planting times. I do 3 different places so I can't always get to each of them at the same time.

I had trouble finding bagged wheat this year. Due to drought, only one feed store had taken the risk of stocking it.

I've planted just about every food plot seed pack available. From Cabela's, Gander Mtn, Bass Pro shop, Walmart and a few I found online. It's kind of a sickness that cost me allot of money with minimal results. It could be that East Texas is just weird, but as of yet, none of the food plots have done any better than the native grass that I just cut down low and put a feeder in the middle.

This year I'm gonna try something different. I'm going to plant bird seed. I have ten feeders in front of my house and what the birds don't eat, starts to grow. I even shot one huge wild hog 25 feet from my front door eating bird seed earlier this year!!!

I'll cut the weeds down low, disk it real good, lime it and spread the seed, then drag it with a log one time and let it sit.

A 50 pound bag of bird seed at walmart is around $10 I think. Two bags per acre should do a nice job. If not, I'm only out $40 in seed for two acres of food plots.

Good luck,
Eddie

Eddie,

East Texas Seed, in Tyler, has a good mix called Rack King. I planted it last year and had good success. Lime and Fertilizer made a big differenbce too.

Gator

Dave, I buy my rye at the local farm Co-op. Same place I get seed. At least in my area it is never perrenial rye but that doesn't matter. I plant it mid August, it grows good for the deer season by mid Sept, it goes dormant for winter but the great thing as compared to wheat and oats is that it stays perfectly green even under snow, then next year it goes to seed. Actually, lots of times it produces enough seed that I can just till one crop under and I get new growth. Even though is is annual rye our normal practice is to plant one year and harvest the next.

To add some more East Texas thoughts for Eddie...

Our soils here are generally acidic(sometimes very acidic), very low in "N", just fine in "P", and slightly low in "K". Hence the need for lime and fertilizers that, in the absence of specific soil tests, have a 3-1-2 ratio. Balanced fertilizers like 13-13-13 or those often recommended for garden plants like 12-24-12 are often a waste of money in East Texas.

For my hay fields, I lime about every three years and use a 27-0-5 ratio for fertilizers.

Makes a huge difference.

bz,
I just laid out 200# of cereal rye as a cover crop on the pondsite perimeter, dam, and behind the dam. It cost $10/bag, 50# bags. It came from a farm supply seed distributor. My farmer neighbor called it cereal rye...the distributor called it winter rye. The seeds were pretty big, about the size of rice.
It is supposed to be a perennial. Is this the same stuff that you're talking about?

Thanks bz. I'm going to try it next year.

Has anyone is East Texas had success with the commercial seeds like Bio-Logic,Imperial clover...etc? I planted it once or twice and didnt have much luck. Maybe i'm doing something wrong.

Gator

Dave, If you haven't tried peas, give them a shot, deer eat mine down to the bare stalk when it's dry...but they hang on pretty good and when it rains, they put on fast. When they are growing good, the deer eating them look up and have streamers down both sides of their mouth...kinda like Popeye eating spinach ! Peas are my #1 choice.

Eastland, I mixed 100 lbs of Australian peas with wheat and oats last year. They really didn't get much of a chance. They germinated and died. Drought hit just about everything except acorns. However, I planted them to naturally fertilize the ground. I never really saw the deer mess with the ones that did make it.

Now that I've finished planting and everything is growing, it's too late to put down anything else this year. My biggest regret is not getting some turnip seeds. They need to go on top of freshly tilled (loose) soil. I usually plant about 10 lbs of turnip seed. The deer mop up on every single one. I always get them from the Justin Feed store for about $1.50 per pound. That is a bunch of turnip seed.

Dave,

Do the hogs dig the turnips?

Gator

Not sure, Gator. But they seem to get everything else so I expect they would. Heck; they're omnivores.

Actually, I've been using turnips for years and this is the first year I've had hogs.

If you decide to plant oats don't waste the money on certified seed oats, whole oats from the feed store have excellent germination and cost less.

I think I will toss in a few pounds of turnip seed when I plant in the next few weeks. thanks Dave.

Gator

what happened to jimmy holt on this thread? anybody seen him?

Mr alligator get to going on that seeding, its the almost the first of october and the moon will turn soon plus you guys may get some raing. I gotta ask you, what is a hog waller? and what does 2 swamps consist of?

He's a dentist, so he's probably fishing. :p

cliffbrook,

Yes we are a little behind on planting in East Texas. The field has been plowed, but no rain. And when I say no rain - I mean we are in the worst drought in 50 years. Hopefully we will catch some fall rain.

This is a picture of a Hog Waller, (the guy posing is unknown; I found the picture on the internet). Wild hogs like mud. They roll around in shallow water areas in order to spread it all over their bodies. All that "wallerin" around creates a hog waller. Thats about all that remains of one of my 1/4 acre small ponds, it has all but dried up:

My “swamps” are low land areas that usually hold water year round. I have to admit they are high and dry right now as is most of the country around me. Lots of copper-headed-rattle-moccasins, bigfoot monsters, giant snapping turtles, alligators, hogs and all sort of creepy things live in swamps.



All kidding aside, the "swamp" areas on my place hold many surface acres of flooded timber and provide a great protected place for the wildlife. Deer, ducks, beavers, hogs, and yes, a few alligators - all seem to stay close by the swampy areas on my place.

Gator

Dan, Call the Justin Feed (or seed) store and make sure they have them. Most places sell winter turnips seeds for 69 cents per qtr. ounce. Justin sells them by the pound. They are tiny. Get a hand bermuda seed slinger and walk. I would recommend the one that rests back on your arm if you can find it. It gets heavy and pretty tiring. I got one at Walmart. Actually, when we put out 10 pounds, my wife drives a 4 wheeler and I sit backwards on it cranking the seeder. You can actually keep it closed and still sling the seed. Don't cover it. Just let it sit on top of the ground. I like to disturb the ground but I expect they will work with just letting rain drive them into the ground. Boy, how's that for a big assumption?

Cliffbrook, after the mud dries, they find a tree with rough bark or any creosote treated power pole and scratch themselves. I bet I have 100+ muddy trees around the house.

Holt had to go to Dallas today regarding business. I expect he will be on a tractor tomorrow.

thanx mr alligator, those swamps sound terrific, so i presume you could have more than 1 hog waller, those feral hogs, do you guys call them javelina or is that further south? we have more hogs than people in Iowa but not many of those wild ones.

100+ hog rubs, sounds like the number of my deer rubs. the deer do like those turnips, most get nibbled before making a root. do you spread the 10 pounds right on your trails?

so, we have a Holt sighting, and he is working up his 20 acre food plot this weekend, good thing he has a tractor, figures a Dentist would have a mouthfull big enough for a 20 acre food plot, but he never shared his plan for critiquing, but with 3 pages of advise he could have plenty of ideas...

i am anxious to get home and see the big buck oats i planted in August right before the rains came, they tell me they are knee high, and the marshes and the forests and the prairies. thanx

CliffBrook; lots of difference in javelinas and ferals. I've never even heard of them crossbreeding. Essentially, the hogs we are talking are about are tame hogs that have gone wild. Within one generation, their tusks start growing, their tales grow and straighten plus their snouts elongate. I'm finding them more wary than deer and 99% nocturnal.

I plant the turnips along with the wheat. I cover the wheat seed and then spread the turnips on top of the prepared ground. It is extremely rare for a turnip to make a tuber. The deer eat the leafy tops before they can root. I guess you could plant them on trails. You would probably need to loosen the soil and assure that they had adequate sunshine.

Dave
Sorry for the delay. The BeeWild was NOT expensive. I looked for an invoice and have yet to find. The Pogue sight has a discussion area and they are helpful. They can answer questions on most any area in the state.

A friend in the Johnson City area is mixing alfalfa in some of his native grass fields. He insist the deer use it first and longest of anything he's tried.

We have been blessed with 6-7" in the last 2 weeks. 2 ponds are running over. The big pond creek will probably run a few more days. Herons are working the creeks running into and out of pond.

We transfered some CCs in June to a small pond and I saw some 2" cats feeding. Had bullheads in this pond before it was drained and deepened. The small fish had green sides and dark tops. I hope they are CCs. Maybe one of the 30 we caught and transfered in June had eggs? Do you think they are large enough to identify? The only method I know is by the tails. May try to cast net one.

Better go check the doves, entertaining business associates this afternoon.

Boy, Al, at 2 inches I can even make mistakes on tails. But, that color doesn't really make me think of CC.

We had what looked like a good storm going thru my place a couple of days ago and one now. I need to get up there this weekend just to look at the rain guage.

Does the alfalfa live through the summers? We raised it when I was a kid but that was in the Panhandle where the summers were relatively cool. We also irrigated by flooding. Bowie is neither cool not prone to flooding.

alfalfa in native, thats an interesting idea.

This weekend I mowed the grass as short as I could and then disked it. I then had the guy from red river farm co-op come out and put fertilizer and rye grass on top. He asked me what ratio of fertilizer I wanted and I told him to use whatever was most common. He put out 17-21-17 I hope I told him right. I guess time will tell. On a side note I have so many baby tilapia right now in the 2-3 inch range that you can pick them up with your hand right out of the water!

1 week later, looking good so far. 4 rubs, 2 scrapes nearby...big tracks in the plot too. 4 days until opening Bow season. I may switch arrows mid-day and take out a few tilapia for lunch/dinner Life is good.

How can you have scrapes this early in Texas? I don't see scapes until some time in October here in MN. Since it's Texas you probably have bigger scrapes too hugh? Deer must be on a whole different schedule down there. I have food plots with corn, soy beans, chicory, rye, and clover. I see the deer hitting the clover beans right now.

Too funny bz, but there's a bigger problem down here in Texas. The acorns are starting to fall, and they're the size of basketballs !

bz, the rut is starting here or about to start. I saw 2 yearlings together a couple of weeks ago. Mama's had kicked them off. I haven't seen any lone bucks yet. They still seem to be together but that won't last long.

Eastland, you had more rain than I did. My acorns are tiny. Are the blank spots in your food patch caused by hogs rooting? They are sure getting after my wheat.

According to TPWD the rut on the upper Texas gulf prairies and marshes actually peaks around the 30th of September.

web page

According to our state DNR the rut peaks on November 6 here in MN. Why the difference I wonder?

Bz, did you look at the TPWD link? Texas varies from late September all the way to late December depending on the geographical region within the state. The areas I hunt in peak around November the 12th while I'm on vacation.

I bet Southern Whitetails breed sooner so as to drop fawns earlier next year, to coincide with the earlier Spring.

Not so Theo, the south Texas region has the latest scheduled rut, it usually peaks in the last of December.(see the link)

???

Must be another example of the Completion Backwards Principle.

Theo, I think with the warmer weather here, they're just like the bgills, they spawn 3 or 4 times a year ! Hard to tell if it's the same doe, but most definately the same buck...if he's lucky

Not an expert on this but I saw where (just like fish) part is based on photo period (day light length).

Here is some info.

"The length of the rut is generally determined by latitude and day length. In the more northern areas of the whitetail range, such as New York and Wisconsin, changes in day length are pronounced. With the shorter days of fall, the rutting activity increases and ends within a relatively short period of time. In the southern states, differences in day length are not as pronounced and the breeding season lasts for several weeks.l Whitetail's near the Equator actually breed year around."

Ewest, Sounds like around the Equator, they have a rolling rut.

I took the day off today and went to the country. I saw 4 fawns/yearlings running together about 3:00 in the afternoon. They don't have a clue what is going on. I have had no time to actually walk thru the woods to hunt up scrapes and/or rubs. Like the little deer, I don't have a clue.

I think bow season starts this weekend but I don't bow hunt.

bz
Scrapes don't mean a whole lot this early. The bucks will stake their area. NOTHING really starts happening until the Mrs. says it's time! I have studied the Edwards Plateau (Sutton County) and So. Texas (Wilson, Medina and Frio Counties) for 40 years. As ewest stated, the Fall Equinox is a factor and I believe things 'heat' up a week or so AFTER the second full moon. This year most of Texas should see a peak rut earlier than normal. The Oct. 7 and Nov. 5 full moons tell me that I need to be active in the pasture Thanksgiving week. When I can smell a scrape at 20 steps I will observe it. I have seen 3-4 bucks use the same scrape...so patience is a must for a viewing of the dominate buck. Our normal peak for areas mentioned is Dec. 5. Yes, factors such as buck-doe ratio, extreem dry or wet weather, and temps. play a role. All this rhetoric and a dollar may get one a DIET DEW!
My .02...we shall see.

I take 3 DMD out with me in the morning every day of Deer season.

doesnt 3DMD bring on pee? or are you putting them on the scrapes?

CB:

You have to understand Theo's Ergonomically Correct Deer Hunting Method. I sit in a lawn chair (inherited from my Wife's Grandpa, who always got his deer) and shoot the first deer that wakes me up. Without the DMD, I could be injured via stomping or impaling before waking. So it's really a safety issue.

We have so many deer now, you can't sling a dead cat without hitting a doe. So while the DMD residue undoubtedly deters trophies, it's not a problem for a meat hunter like me (I actually shot a buck last year, a 4-pointer, and felt guilty for not taking out a breeding female). Thus far, I have been unable to interest the Ohio DNR in a dead cat season on deer.

gotcha, i have too many deer too, my genetics must not be too good cause one only has 3 legs.

i think i can get at least 4 tags, but none for dead cats.

Interesting. There could be another season and it might have a name. We already have archery season and rifle season. The weekend prior to the opening of rifle season is youth only weekend (season). Some states have black powder season.

In some TX counties, there is an extended season for the taking or cropping of excess does. We could name it the the TDC season or Theos dead cat season. BTW, not to be confused with the TDC meaning Texas Department of Corrections. OK, change it to the Gallus dead cat season or GDC season. Nah, that wouldn't work either.

Theo:

Remind me for next year, and I'll be pleased and proud to provide alla dead cats you care to sling. For that matter, you can do whatever you want with them...if that means slingin' 'em at deer, that's fine. If you just wanna keep around for company while deer huntin', so be it.

I've got plenty to go round. Give me a physical address. I'll see you don't run out during the season.

You're too kind. Normally I have to resort to E-Bay to keep up my dead cat supply. :rolleyes:

they busted some kid in iowa for tortoring his cat, just this week. so, maybe we had better find more appealling weapons

http://www.kcci.com/news/9955397/detail.html

dont forget those landowner tags, slug, bow/black, doe only. think more landowner is possible (each parcel) and more doe. road kill salvage tags from deputies. but if you are trying to start an outfitter then forget about your clients from out of state getting tags.