I ran into a gentleman the other day at the feed store and overheard a conversation regarding his recently stocked pond.

The man has 1/5 acre at the most. He was conned into stocking the following:

250 channel catfish
250 hybrid bluegill
250 coppernose bluegill
? redear sunfish
250 bass
250 crappie
? fathead minnows

We consulted with the man today at his pond. He is very angry!

The operation is run by a man named Rex Curtis, DBA Delta Supreme Fish Farms. He claims to have one of the largest fish farms in Arkansas, with 40+ fish trucks running statewide. I hear he is wanted by the FBI for wire fraud.

Folks like this give the industry a bad rap. I'm posting this with the hopes that maybe one person will check the forum before buying from this individual. I realize most of the regular forum members would not make these types of stocking mistakes.

Very disturbing! Turns out what was once thought to be "free" will end up costing much more in the long run.

I'm a little confused I understand that he overstocked and the mixes of fish are not correct, but how does his con work if the customer gets that many fish for free?

He's a 'bait and switch' convict. He has spent time in prison. He runs an ad in a local paper advertising 'free fish.' When you call his cell phone (he has no permanent phone, he operates out of an old one ton fish truck), you leave a message. When someone takes the bait, he returns the call and explains, 'buy one, get one free.' He is a lurid con artist who is completely dishonest. He convincingly explains he owns thousands of acres of ponds, has too many fish, and you are the beneficiary of his overproduction. He owns no land, he owns no fish farm. He owns a truck. He badmouths the reputable people, claiming his main mission is to run them out of business, because they are not honest. I expected him to be in jail by now, but he moves his ads around, dupes a few people, then moves on. He comes back every year or two, runs another ad, dupes those people and moves on.
He is a scourge, avoid at all costs.

The guy almost got me years ago. My pond was almost full and I saw his ad in the Fort Worth Star Telegram. I was on my way out of town and asked my brother to check into it. He made a deal like the one above. As I recall, the whole tab would have been about $2,500. He was also going to fertilize in the middle of winter. I made a couple of quick calls and found out who and what he was. When I called and cancelled the order, he threatened me with a butt whipping, called me a dirty SOB and said he was going to dump the fish at my front gate. He declined to make an appointment to follow through.

Mr. Willy, a properly stocked Texas 1/5 acre pond can handle about 200 BG and RES and 25 channel cats. Also maybe a pound of fatheads. This should cost somewhere around $100 to $125. I expect the victim in this case spent many times that. The real problem is going to be a biomass problem with most of the fish dying. They will foul the water and he has a 100% chance of a Dissolved Oxygen crash.

Lots of honest guys deliver fish on trucks to local feed stores and advertise in advance. They are in a retail environment and are there to sell fish. They don't ask the size of your pond. However, if you ask questions, you will usually get honest answers from them.

Pursuant to and concurring with Mr Willy's confusion...
The over-stock problem is easily understood. The scam is also. What remains unanswered is: What over-stock product does the schmoe dump into the pond? If his shtick is to talk you into 1250 quality fish where 225 would be ideal, then how does he make enuff bux to continue when his cost is based on high cost product?...or...does he dump a buncha BH and hope to not get caught?

He usually does get caught but is long gone. I don't know anything about the wholesale cost of fish so I don't know about his profit margin. An honest retailer has to at least double the cost from the wholesaler to you. Most of the fish trucks I see are from actual fish farms. Hauling fish is extremely risky and you can lose your financial butt on it. You'd better know what you're doing and time everything just right. Todd and Bob can better comment on that one than I can.

"Lots of honest guys deliver fish on trucks to local feed stores and advertise in advance. They are in a retail environment and are there to sell fish. They don't ask the size of your pond. However, if you ask questions, you will usually get honest answers from them."

Dave that is very debateable statement. Every truck I have ever seen pull into feedd store then out of town later oversells fish. Also depending on how long they have been on truck there maybe high mortality after stocking. I have plans to work with a few feed stores and sell them but I will not be too far down the road if there is a problem.

How does he make money? Well like Dave said buy in volume and get a discount, so even if he honestly sold the amount he said he is making money. Who counts the 250 fish? If that dishonest I'm sure they are on the light side of that number. Todd did not say what the guy had to pay. He could charge more than double what others charge, so easy to make money. I will be on look out if I see free fish ad, thanks.

Todd are you going to have any specials this spring?

Greg, the guys that show up in my neighborhood are from Dunns Fish Farm in Arkansas. I've heard people ask questions and get straight answers. Of course, I haven't heard all of the questions and answers. I did get a call from one guy who asked some questions and think Dunns overstocked him but I don't know both sides of the story. I think they haul a lot more black crappie and hybrid BG than they should.

The way I see it, there are 2 dangers of buying off a truck. The first is the one you mentioned; the time the fish have been on the truck. Lots of stress. The second is that the fish are hauled in very cold water. Although they tell the customer to acclimate them, very few people are set up and know how to do it properly.

I bought some from Arkansas Pond Stockers truck. They didn't ask or try to sell anything extra, just took orders. The fish were very lively. The water quality, hardness and ph were good. I later talked to a man with a filling 30 acre pond. He had talked to them over the phone and they recommended to him a standard stocking rate and types of fish. They did offer him a small stocking of black crappie due to the size of pond.

The total bill for fish was $550, so not necessarily a bad deal for the fish if he actually got what he paid for...which I seriously doubt.

Todd,

For "consumer protection", are there some standard tables that provide correspondence to fish size and numbers per pound? For example, a table that would show how much 500 3 to 4 inch BG should weigh? Most folks would find it difficult to count numbers of fish much above a couple of hundred, but a quick weight check might provide some degree of verification that indeed the consumer is getting what they paid for.

I believe Bob included this information in a pond boss issue, but not sure which one. But 3"-4" bluegill usually weigh 18-26 lbs per 1000 fish.

James, in response to your guestion about spring specials....

We'll we haven't decided yet because the weather hasn't decided if it will bring drought relief or not.

If there is persistent drought we will likely try to liquidate some fish. But if the rain comes and fills up all these Texas ponds then we'll be so busy that demand may exceed supply...

I guess we'll wait and see.

Here is your source for paddlefish, they would have to be airshipped:
Osage Catfisheries
Lake Ozark, MO
573-348-2305

On the Dunn's people...I ordered from them before I found this forum. In my experience, the folks you talk to in the office give pretty sound advice. As for the guys on the trucks, I believe they are guys on commission out to sell fish. I have heard people buying bass from them also wanting CNBG as forage for the bass be told that they are sold out this trip & that "hybrid BG are better that CNBG". They "may" grow bigger & reportly haul alot better, but are darn sure not better forage for bass. The first time it was me on the buying end, the second I was picking ip some FH's and overheard the conversaton with another customer. A different driver in each instance. It is definetly a "buyer beware world"!

Ross,

I'm sure there are such guys, but there are also others who do not. The GG driver, David, offered me the chance to reduce my order 25% at the pond site, rather than trying to sell more fish. Just like most things in life, you run into some bad folks and some good folks. It is definitely a requirement for pond owners to be smart buyers and very selective in who they deal with.

Another thing David, the GG driver, did at my location which I viewed as positive...he asked me for a place to dump several thousand GG's from one tank. These fish were, for the most part all still alive, but he said he wouldn't sell them to any customer because of the risk of high mortality following stocking. As a result, my buzzard colony had a pleasaant diversion from Tilapia.

The key to me is, as Meadowlark says, "smart buyers". I was fortunate 16 years ago to have some help and bought my original stocking from a reputable fish supplier. I've wondered about those feed store fish deals. I did buy some fat head minnows from one when I was driving through on my way to my place one time. Found out later I didn't really need any more. However, he did sell me what I asked for.
This forum is good for guys like me who read all this stuff.

Here's some advice about buying fish. This will be a post you may want to save.
There's nothing wrong with buying fish off a reputable fish truck. Nothing at all. Reputable fish dealers have good equipment, know how to handle fish, buy fish from reputable hatcheries, and come by the feed store on a regular basis. But, they are fish sellers. Their agenda is to sell fish. Caveat emptor. If you buy fish from a fish truck, don't depend on their advice for your pond. Know what you want before you place the order. Some try to advise people, based on some universal set of 'rules' they have come up with. There is no regard for regional or geographical differences. Do your homework, and tell them what you want. They are fish salespeople, not consultants or advisors.
On the other hand, when you work with a private fisheries manager or consultant, once he/she knows your goals and have evaluated your status, they will guide you what to do, and what to stock. Then, many of them will help you buy the fish from a reputable supplier.
Meadowlark asked a great 'caveat emptor' question that most people have no clue to ask.
When comparing fish prices, you must have apples to apples. Early in my career, I lost several sales because my fish were 'overpriced.' I priced 4-6" catfish at $.30 back then. Other people priced them at $.20. What I didn't convey to these buyers was my fish were closer to six inches and my competitors were closer to four. After I figured it out, I was able to do a better job of advising people how much to pay and what to buy.
Here's a table of typical fish and the fisheries nomenclature for them. When buying, guys like me ask, "How many pounds per thousand?" That tells us exactly how large the fish are, and how many we can safely load onto a truck.
For channel catfish, 4" is about 20#/1,000; 6" is around 40#/1,000; 8 inchers can be as large a 100#/1,000. See the difference?
For bluegill, young fingerlings, 1.5-2" can weigh from 3-6#/1,000. 2-3" weigh from 6-10#/1,000. Here's where it really begins to change. A 4" bluegill can weigh from 25-35#/1,000. A 6 incher can weigh 6 per pound, or 165#/1,000. That's why big bluegill cost so much compared to smaller ones. Redear sunfish weigh similarly as bluegill.
Bass are often sold by the inch. But, each inch is figured by how much the fish weigh. I have bought fish which 'weighed' 1.75 inches, and the price was based on that. A 1 inch bass weighs about 2#/1,000. A 2 incher weighs around 3-4#/1,000. 3 inch bass weigh 4-6# per thousand. A six inch bass may weigh 3 ounces. That's a big reason large bass cost much more, along with the fact they eats lots of food, or are labor intensive, and on top of all that, are cannibals. The more you understand, the better you are able to buy.

Great post Bob! I agree we now have two prices fo rintermediate bluegill, one for those weighin 25-40 lbs/1,000 and another for those weighing 40-75 lbs/1,000. I had to do this b/c I too was "overpricing" my bluegill. The price diff allows me to educate consumer and hopefully talk them into fewer but bigger size so they can survive bass predation.

Bob,

That's exactly what I was after. Thanks. I built a Word Table from your info, but can't seem to paste it herein without loosing the format and some content.

If you or others can provide additional info/entries, I will make up the table and e-mail to anyone who wants it. I believe this would be most useful to all prospective fish buyers.


Fish Type 1-2” 2-3” 3-4” 4-5” 5-6”
catfish 20 40
LMB
BG 3-6 6-10 25-35 165
RSF 3-6 6-10 25-35 165
Crappie
All entries are pounds per 1000 fish

p.s. as you can see above the formating is lost, but in Word this is a neat table.

cut & paste works fine for me...the printer is humming as I type.
This input combined with the excellent info in Pond Boss magazine will get me where I'm going as I construct my dream. Thanx, ya'll

Another question to ask especially if you are buying intermediate to larger fish is their approximate age. For example if you are buying 3-5in. BG in the spring you want BG born the prior spring/summer not the stunted ones from the summer or fall of the year before that. Same concept for LMB.

Bob,

A fish chart looks like a good suppliment for a future PB article.

I also replied to that ad out of curiosity and it was easy to see quickly that guy was a crook.
As always, if it sounds too good to be true then it normally is a scam job!

I have recently purchased a large order of fish from Dunn's Fish Farm and was very pleased.
I spoke directly with David Dunn and found him to be very knowledgeable and honest with his recommendations. They coordinated a truck delivery of my fish order (it was quite large) and I felt like the fish were counted out carefully and were in excellent condition.
The driver did a good job and we tried our best to acclimate the fish during release. That process seemed a little bit difficult, fish are disoriented and you hope for healthy fish that will do well. We did not have hardly any floaters and kept a good watch for several days.

I would highly recommend Dunn's Fish Farm and so far could not be more impressed.

I plan several additional orders for my 3 new ponds as they fill.

That is if it ever rains in Oklahoma again!!

Thanks for the heads up and great advice!!!

I'm still several months away from finishing my pond, then who knows how long it will take to fill, but until then, I'm really enjoying learning from you guys!!!!

Eddie