Pond Boss
Posted By: Eric Small holes in ice where water is not frozen - 12/16/05 01:44 PM
Good morning, Silly question here that I don't know if anyone might know the answer to. I have about 4 inches or more of ice on my pond and some snow over top of it in areas and slush in others ( from yesterdays storm ) When I went out to clear off some of the snow, I noticed some areas that had small ( about 1 to 2 inch ) round openings in the ice. As I scraped over them the water from the pond came up through it.

I am starting to see some of the winter algae starting to form under the ice and as such was wondering if this is an exothermic reaction or maybe something to do with the growth of the algea and heat being thrown off. Any ideas would be welcome.
Eric, last year, I saw similar holes in my pond after the ice had set in.

There were a few holes like that.

Because the looked like ice fishing holes that had started to re-ice, I wondered if they were from poachers who may have been ice fishing my pond.

Hopefully, it's a natural thing.
Eric, is there any water circulation in your pond, or any springs. I've seen similar things on our pond where a small hole becomes larger with the weight of the ice pushing down on the water, there is usually a spring or some sort of water circulation under ice. This can sometimes happen when the ice freezes unevenly due to snow cover, the weight distribution of the ice becomes very uneven. Sunil, these were not old ice fishing holes at our pond, the spooky thing was that they never froze over even when the highs were in the mid teens, you could watch the water swirl and slowly poor over the ice as it got sucked up into some nearby snow and added more weight to the nearby area.
I see this on my ponds with early or late ice when the ice is thin. No springs in my ponds either although there is no doubt springs can do this. Not sure about the mechanisms of ice formation though. Maybe someone else can come on shed some light on this.

One thing I have always found curious on natural lakes is water surges under the ice. Has anyone else seen this? I have been icefishing and seen water go up and down in my icefishing hole. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with contracting ice that may cause some kind of pressure wave. We all know the cracking of the ice that I have experienced in really cold conditions can really make some noise.
Thanks for the feedback and I am glad to see I am not alone. As far as I know there are no natural springs in my pond. I do have a seasonal creek that is still running even though its cold here. I also do have some snow ont he pond and it does seem that the holes stay open even in the low teens.

Ice and water is very interesting at the various temps. The more I learn about htis pond/eco system the more I realize I know nothing about it!! lol

One thing that also caught my eye today was that I have an apple on the center of the ice. My apple trees are about 200 feet away. I have deer, fox, bunny, squirrel, and Coyote markings all around the pond. With my Ice only being 4 inches and those holes in spots, I wonder which one of those ( deer or squirrel ) I will find frozen and floating come spring time. Who knows maybe neither but always funny to see an apple in the center of the pond with nothing around and no tracks leading away from it. Come to think of it it could have been the squirrel and he might have been taken by the Bald Eagle in the back. Ahhh well its fun to see the winter pond life unfold.
I typically see the same type thing on my larger pond which is not spring fed. I currently have 4 inches of solid ice with 1.5 inches of thick slush-snow and 1 inch of regular snow on top. Yesterdays accumulation of heavy wet snow has caused water to move on top of the ice and make most of the snow water soaked. About in the center of the pond there is a round 10" to 14" open water hole. I assume this is where most of the water is moving out and on top of the ice. I have seen these clear, ice covered, round holes during previous years after they have frozen closed. Water movement through this present open hole has enlarged the hole size during the last 24 hrs. I am curious to see if all snow becomes water soaked before the open hole freezes solid during cold temps predicted for the next few days.
I've got 4-5 holes in my acre of ice, but they are all irregular "spiderholes" with "legs" going out from a central hole, maybe leading off through cracks in the ice. The area of the different holes is, amazingly, pretty consistant. They have stayed thawed or almost completely thawed for the last week or so. They may have water oozing up through them, but they are not the only places that can happen. The aerator hole has been open most days and the drainbox hole has always been open.

Pretty intricate dynamics in ice.
I am beginning to think we are on to an Alien conspiracy here. Something like the Crop circles!! \:D
Or just maybe there is a link here to Bruce's pirates! It is possible they are having a hard time breathing underwater. \:D
I never thought of the Pirate connection. Maybe its airholes for them to breath through. :rolleyes:

I was out there earlier today and saw about 25 holes like this. If it is Pirates, then looks like I am dangerously close to being attacked soon!!! \:D
Typical pirate response to global warming.
Hey maybe the holes are the spots where the peg leg went through the ice as he walked across the pond!!! Arrrrgggggggggg!!!
I don't know a heck of alot (just enough to be dangerous), but I will take a cocky credit on having solved your mystery. Good to know he/they were just passing through instead of treading water waiting on some booty. \:D

And no, before you even ask, I am not up late at night drinking and making posts. You all can just be such a darn fun crowd to be around.
Up until our last rain/ice storm, my pond was peppered with those "spider holes", as Theo calls them. They remind me of the scene in the movie "Fantastic Voyage" where the group is passing through the brain.
Yeah Russ - that's exactly what they look like - typical depictions of neurons.

A couple of 13 degree nights have frozen mine soild, but you can still see the shape.
Okay so now the best hypothesis is that it is not Pirates but actually brain cells and neurons??

Cool I always thought it was intelligent to put a pond in. Now I have the proof for my wife who thought it was a stupid idea. \:\) Now I can tell her I am fostering a big large brain as opposed to a hole in the ground to put money into. ;\)

On a more serious note, the holes in mine have not frozen over as of yet, but I also see the spider type of marks from one to the other. I would truly love to see some scientific study or description of what is happening in the pond as we see such things.
Actually Eric an error or delay in a synaptic gap sequence could give one the delusion of “pirates on the ice”. So it may still all tie together.

Basically I am just sitting down here in lower Ga. jealous of the fact that the only ice I have is in my freezer. The pieces have some cracks, but no pirates holing up yet.

I believe the true answer to your phenomenon is called Ice Rosettes. They form on ice after a hole has been created and then slightly frozen back over. The new ice is not thick enough yet, so the water current underneath has just enough rise and fall pressure to crack the fragile ice causing those "spider web" effects. At least I think this is what you all are talking about.
I would gladly trade the ice for warmer weather. I used to live down in Naples Florida many years ago and moved back to upstate NY to be closer to family. Man I can't stand the cold. But it sure makes for interesting pond discussions lol
Eric :

On a much less serious note here is the fictitious study you inquired about only as it relates to your recent spider hole discovery (alleged discovery of brain life in your pond).


TITLE

The Existence of Pond Spider Brain Cells and Their Ability To Confuse Pond Owners About Their Cause and Effect Relationship.


ABSTRACT

There has been much recent speculation as to the existence and proximate cause of small openings in pond ice with radiating irregular fractures which to some pond owners have been alternatively and allegedly caused by current day pirates of the Carrib.(as they manipulate global warming or otherwise extract their revenge) or by a newly discovered intelligent life form designated as Spiderus Braincellus Fictitious. This study was undertaken to test the very limited and questionable observations of selected pond owners related to the two hypostasis and establish a foundation, if it exists ,for this new exotic/alien life form or in the alternative establish the cause of the ice features including if current day pirates were involved.

After limited efforts, little calculation questionable scientific methods and influenced only by the PondBoss forum and based on one set of fictitious mDNA tests the conclusion is mixed, but certain ,with aspects of each hyp. being true.

Our conclusion is the spider holes were not a new life form but exhibited the very limited brain function of one very cold half frozen pirate (Black Jack Kidd variety -hereafter BJK) as he attempted to do yellow perch observations from his boogie board pirate skiff on lightly frozen ponds on a recent return trip in search of the super secret BG pond identified as being in the northeast USA by CB1. The mDNA gathered from the area of most of the spider holes were of pirate origin (Black Jack Kidd variety) and from the skin of the foot area . It seems that BJK was returning from an excursion in search of the secret pond containing larger than life male BG when he decided to do YP growth rate observations on a string of lightly frozen lakes on his return trip. The lakes run in a line from Maine to NY to Penn. to Neb. with each having been reported by pond observers - note location of PB observers Eric , CB1, Sunil, Theo and Shorty. It appears that prior similar observations at B Cody pond ( known to have an outstanding YP population) must have occurred on prior trips and that BJK avoided this location in fear that he would be discovered by a superior scientific investigator. The evidence suggests that as BJK tried to use his pirate skiff/ boogie board to do YP observations when his unprotected foot (pirates of the Carr. don't wear shoes) contacted the ice it stuck and parts of the skin remained at each spider hole where his foot contacted the ice as he franticly attempt to extract the research vessel and its occupant. Thus the irregular pattern/fractures and skin source for mDNA tests. The pond owners observations were accurate to a limited extent but it is theorized that due to the absence of long-haired posts for a short time on the PB forum they were slightly delusional as to their new life form/genetic observations (this is now designated a behavioral disorder "PB longhair-lackus "). We can not disprove the possibility that there was some limited brain function- new life form (YP avoiding observation , and frozen pirate extraction) occurring or that in time the excised pirate skin in first contact with abundant pond life would have mutated into a new and brilliant life form designated Dr. Frankenbruce. More input , facts and observation are needed from future studies to more accurately confirm these conclusions but it is feared that such events will be limited due to the limited foot skin remaining on BJK's pirate feet. It is therefore concluded that this is a once a year event limited to northern (Yankee) ponds which happens prior to total freeze over , ice fishing and SAD onset frozen tundra effect.

From the Unofficial PB librarian--links
[ Not translated into Germanic ]

-------------------------------------------------

\:\) Merry Christmas and I hope in the season of joy this brought a smile . It is as much a parody of the writer's status as the people and events. \:D \:\) ;\)
Nice work ewest!
This explains the bloody Diet Mountain Dew can I found stuck to the ice on my dock, placed a full 7 feet away from the nearest bloody bare footprints on the pond ice. That's way farther than one of my multiple personalities could have placed it while icefishing/sleepwalking barefoot, but well within Dr. Frankenbruce's reach (as anyone who has seen Bruce's fish photos well knows). \:D :p
This is better news than I could have ever imagined! My pond project lies directly between Penn. and Neb.! Deb, I'm gonna need some paranormal detection equipment by next winter. Better yet, let's get the sensors and cameras mounted around Cecil's pond rite now....hope it's not too late in the season.
Us Yankees are truly blessed!
(excellent rave, Ewest)
Brilliant ewest, brilliant!

Hey Brettski, you are right! I could mix business and pleasure on this one. Equipment part is simple, understanding...that is the key. ;\) Have not caught a pirate on visual or evp yet, but there is always the chance!
Dam, ewest that's good! I think I'll go have a beer and some Hooter's wings on that one.

I think you have all been hitting the egg nog a little early.
I'm trying to wipe the tears away from laughing so hard! \:D \:D \:D
All I can say ia Man some of us have waaaaayyyyyy too much time on our hands!! LOL

And thanks god they do, we all need a laugh like that!!! \:D \:D \:D

The only thing I wonder is how much a govenmental agency would have funded for a report with less detail and less fact than that one. I think I have to go out and ask for funding for research on this subject. When I get it I think I will have to build a new 25 acre pond to do the study on!!! ;\)
I was out onmy pond today and I checked on the open holes that I mentioned on Friday Dec 16th. After two nights of single digit temps the holes are frozen over with thick ice. Once the snow got all water soaked, the forces or pressures equalized between weight of the snow on the ice and the flotation force. THEN the water quit moving out through the hole. After all the snow got water soaked, it froze a layer of cloudy ice 1.5" thick. I now have 5.5" of firm uniform ice across the pond.

I drilled several holes at various spots late this afternoon and watched perch feed on the soft, rolled, pellets that I was droppng into the hole. I had y. perch feeding up within 12" of the hole in the ice.
Never happened here.....until now.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Cody:
I was out onmy pond today and I checked on the open holes that I mentioned on Friday Dec 16th. After two nights of single digit temps the holes are frozen over with thick ice. Once the snow got all water soaked, the forces or pressures equalized between weight of the snow on the ice and the flotation force. THEN the water quit moving out through the hole. After all the snow got water soaked, it froze a layer of cloudy ice 1.5" thick. I now have 5.5" of firm uniform ice across the pond.

I drilled several holes at various spots late this afternoon and watched perch feed on the soft, rolled, pellets that I was droppng into the hole. I had y. perch feeding up within 12" of the hole in the ice.
Bill!

You're feeding your perch through the ice! I know you want to beat my big perch but that's a little desparate isn't it? \:D
CB1 - You have to use every trick in the fish culture handbook to stay ahead of 2nd and 3rd place. \:D
This is a very old thread, but I was still unable to find a definitive answer to what is causing these things to appear. When we first saw them hubby & I assumed an animal had fallen through the ice and gotten frozen over - but nobody was ever found in spring. The pond is 8' deep and about the size of a hockey rink. I can get 7"+ thickness out there, and the clear spider veins are darned solid. So welcome to the close of 2022 and we now have Chat GPT to research & find the answer for us. So for anyone who was STILL wondering after 17 years...

Spider-like ice rosettes are formed when thin layers of ice form on top of a frozen pond or other body of water. These rosettes are formed when the thin layers of ice are pushed up by the expansion of the water underneath as it freezes. The ice layers are pushed up in a circular pattern, forming the characteristic "spider-like" appearance of the rosettes. The size and shape of the rosettes can vary depending on the temperature and humidity conditions at the time they are forming.

One way to visualize the process is to imagine a layer of water on top of a frozen pond. As the temperature drops, the water begins to freeze from the bottom up. As the water at the bottom of the layer freezes, it expands and pushes the water above it upwards. This creates a circular pattern of ice on the surface of the pond, with the center of the circle being the highest point. The thin layers of ice that form on top of the water continue to be pushed upwards as more and more water freezes, creating the distinctive spider-like appearance of the rosettes.

It's worth noting that ice rosettes are not a common occurrence, and they are typically only seen in very specific conditions. They tend to form when the temperature is extremely cold and the humidity is low, as these conditions allow the water to freeze quickly and evenly. They are also more likely to form in areas with relatively still water, as the movement of the water can disrupt the formation of the rosettes.
And then there's the alligators.
Originally Posted by HighCountryGirl
This is a very old thread, but I was still unable to find a definitive answer to what is causing these things to appear. When we first saw them hubby & I assumed an animal had fallen through the ice and gotten frozen over - but nobody was ever found in spring. The pond is 8' deep and about the size of a hockey rink. I can get 7"+ thickness out there, and the clear spider veins are darned solid. So welcome to the close of 2022 and we now have Chat GPT to research & find the answer for us. So for anyone who was STILL wondering after 17 years...

Spider-like ice rosettes are formed when thin layers of ice form on top of a frozen pond or other body of water. These rosettes are formed when the thin layers of ice are pushed up by the expansion of the water underneath as it freezes. The ice layers are pushed up in a circular pattern, forming the characteristic "spider-like" appearance of the rosettes. The size and shape of the rosettes can vary depending on the temperature and humidity conditions at the time they are forming.

One way to visualize the process is to imagine a layer of water on top of a frozen pond. As the temperature drops, the water begins to freeze from the bottom up. As the water at the bottom of the layer freezes, it expands and pushes the water above it upwards. This creates a circular pattern of ice on the surface of the pond, with the center of the circle being the highest point. The thin layers of ice that form on top of the water continue to be pushed upwards as more and more water freezes, creating the distinctive spider-like appearance of the rosettes.

It's worth noting that ice rosettes are not a common occurrence, and they are typically only seen in very specific conditions. They tend to form when the temperature is extremely cold and the humidity is low, as these conditions allow the water to freeze quickly and evenly. They are also more likely to form in areas with relatively still water, as the movement of the water can disrupt the formation of the rosettes.

It will also happen when the ice is thawing, the water on top of the ice will make a hole and the "legs" are the rivulets of water running to the hole. Then it gets colder out and it all re-freezes.
Thank you for bringing up this old post and sharing an explanation. I saw the same phenomena on my new pond as it froze a few weeks ago and was wondering as to the cause. After the last hard freeze we got, they mostly went away.

I must say that I still like the alternate explanations...
© Pond Boss Forum