Question for all Pond Boss frequenters.

What do you get when you combine the following:

Fat pellet fed male BG about ten inches

Big healthy 10.5 inch female pellet hog bluegill

New little pond

Lots of food

and 11 months of growth

Drum roll, please.........

BUBBA


BUBBA'S BIG BROTHER

Bruce -- did you happen to weigh them?? We need to start calculating some relative weight values on your fish!! :-)

I didn't weigh them but the lengths were 4.5 inches and 5.75 inches. It looks like their tails are having trouble keeping up with the rest of the body.

I was also suprised, and a little frightened that the male has characteristics of sexual maturity. 11 months is a little young, don't you think?

The parents were stocked into a brand new 1/10 acre pond second week of July 2004 so they can't be any older than that.

I actually caught about fifteen more before I made myself stop.

Here's one more.

BRENDA (BUBBA'S BIG SISTER) 5 inches

Bruce - Dave, Maybe the research about delayed maturation and culkolder behavior does not apply to every bluegill population. The development of your young 11 month old male raises some questions in my mind. Hopefully you can follow the age & growth of these young males especially if a few of just the males are separated.

Bruce:

How many adults did you put in the 1/10 acre last year?

The 2004 YOY certainly show great growth even for a new pond - perhaps there was so little pressure on the bigger 2004 males from Bull 'Gills for breeding space that they went ahead & matured???

Bill,

You can bet I'll follow development closely. My goal is to separate the bigger fish into three groups. Tail clipped and added to my recreation pond, placed into new reproduction pond for 2006 and some left in existing pond. This way if I have a catastrophy of some kind I won't lose them all.

Theo,

These fish came from approximately 60 adults that were carefully chosen for the program. I currently have 930 of this year class. What makes the maturation of an 11-month-old male even more remarkable is that it is in a lined pond. There are steep sides and no spawning substrate of any kind. Why did he mature? The other eleven BG that I caught were unremarkable in size. They were quite healthy, but no longer than a typical age-1 BG. At the end of the year I hope a couple hundred of these fish will distinguish themselves for second generation production next year.

Bruce - Were you ever able to get some stomach contents for the first phase of the feeding study?

the tail is not keeping up, neither is the head(mouth to flap), I think it is deformed, but deformed in a good way(lots of meat). Very nice!

You're right about the head size being too small. This is one of the ways that we distinguish body condition on first glance. The head to body ratio is usually smaller when the fish are in good condition. Stunted panfish usually have big looking heads--especially the eye.

Bill, I just bought some Bacardi's 151 rum for the study but my wife is worried about me suddenly switching from Jack Daniels after knowing me for 20 years.

Well guys I'm a little concerned about the all males I put in my 1/10th acre pond. I've had high hopes as they are 7 inchers that are only 2 years of age! Many of them still are lined up facing the bank in very shallow water and although I can get some of them to suck up pellets most are not interested in pellets. Many are so shallow their backs are almost out of the water. Thank goodness a passing heron as not keyed in on this yet. During the day during bright sunny weather there are many suspending near the surface farther out. I can get some of them to suck in pellets if I throw them to them.

Possible explanations are:

1.) Low grade disease problems or parasites. However only one mortality in a couple months and I see no signs of fungus or bacteria on their bodies. But I haven't removed any of them to examine them closely. I thinking of send a few to a disease lab and see if they come up with anything. Fish are directly from an RAS and it is possible they have a low resistence to pathogens due to not being exposed to them or building up an immunity. Kind of like breast fed babies vs. all bottle fed. However these fish were pond fish initially. I had one fish farmer in PA tell me he did not think RAS fish were as adaptable to ponds as pond raised fish. But one sign that it may NOT be a pathogenic thing is the fish do scoot off rapidly when approached and are impossible to net. Also the fish have been doing this for a couple of months now with no appreciable mortality or obvious disease signs.

2.) Being it is a new pond the fish are forgoing pellets to feed on natural feed items. However the fish in shallow water don't seem to be actively feeding. They just appear to be sitting their facing the bank. There was a prolific amount of tadpoles earlier and some very very small frogs which the fish sucked in as soon as I threw them to them. Maybe there are smaller food Items I am not seeing. I suspose I could open one up or suck out some stomach contents.

3.) Fish are just having a hard time adapting to the wild environment coming out of stainless steel tanks. It's like putting someone from NYC into the wild. LOL

Thank you all for your previous comments and more would be greatly appreciated.

BTW Bruce. Nice fish! They look similar to the bluegills I planted out of the RAS. Only difference was the RAS fish were a little pale with a purple sheen.

One more thing. Some of them will eat the Japanese beetles that are now showing up now if I throw them into the pond. Maybe they're Japanese bluegills?

Seriously this seems to back up the theory that they may prefer natural items at this point in time. Hope so!

Could be terrestrial bugs are falling off the burlap that goes to the edge of the water and that is why they are facing the bank?

I'm going to set up my bugcatcher light/fan(forget the brandname) and see if they key in on the bugs at night. If they go bonzo over the bugs at night I'll know it's they are more interested in natural food items and it's not a pathogen issue. I'll keep you posted.

Bruce - all I can say is WOW!!!

ps I have one wiper that is up to 17" that was stocked at less than 10 last fall. Does that seem possible?

Cecil - let us know how the bugcatcher works. I have been thinking of experimenting with one of those as well.

Cecil - This is one more reason to persue raising your own quality stock similar to what Bruce is doing. How is the outline for our bgill article coming? Bruce & I have quite a few pictures now.

Bruce - Isn't biology fun. You can use the same stuff to preserve bugs and charge up your mixed drinks. Tell the kids it is for bug pickling only and you are monitoring the liquid level. Be careful if the bugs quit dying; someone is diluting the preservative.

Here's a bluegill just caught from the all-male pond. Sorry about the atrocious quality, but I got a new digital camera for my birthday this week and I'm still not understanding the settings.

I thought you'd enjoy what I call the "helmet". Bluegill that have unlimited foraging get this crazy apparatus on the top of their dome. This one was pretty good.



Here's another bad photo that maybe gives a little better size perspective.



I need comments!!!

Oh my goodness, what a fish! You cracked 11 inches, which is truly an accomplishment! Have you shown this picture to Gabelhouse? I'm pretty sure his biggest from Pelican Lake is still 10 15/16 inches. We wouldn't let him have that last sixteenth of an inch!

Bruce:

Did you weigh him? He's huge.

I need to get my second pond dug so I can stop hating you (as much).

Bruce, you are on the leading edge, that is a beautiful fish...I sure would like to get broodstock from your high end breeding pairs, you're not shipping fish out of State yet are you

I have done my best to only stock genetically superior fish...but I did have to buy standard coppernose, I'm betting there's a huge market for pure BG with your growth potential. It's great to see the results of selective breeding, do you know the age of the 11+" ?

That fish is (one of) my broodstock fish. He wasn't born on my farm, but can't be higher than age-6.

Some of my age-3's are his progeny likely.

I didn't weigh him. I was having so many problems figuring out the camera settings that I was worried I might be stressing him, so he was measured and quickly released.

I'll catch another one better than him soon that I'll get higher quality photos. By my estimation that fish wouldn't crack my top 40.

Excellent fight, by the way.

This is the first year that I'll have more than a handful of fish from these breeding pairs. I may have as many as five thousand.

Ultimately, if I keep them all alive maybe five hundred will be worth a darn. There will even be some really slow growers in the bunch. I'll run a seine in September and get rid of at least 80% of them.

Maybe for your second pond you could get me a couple dozen of your best feed trained males from your pond and I'll breed them with the best F-2 females from my program and we'll end up with a "Gallello" strain.

Bruce has just the technique and camera angles to make that little 11 incher look large. :p
Bruce, you are so sadistic to subject us with this, and the poor fish to 99 degree heat.
Awesome fish, my man.

Thanks! The best thing about these bigger bluegill is that if you use them for bait you can catch a twenty pound catfish instead of a fifteen pounder.

Cecil, what do you do about that hump/helmet thingie when you're creating a mount? Are you able to duplicate that very well?

Absolutely! I use a method to mount panfish knows as the half cast method. Basically I make an impression of the fish in plaster to use as a guide to mount the fish skin. If it has a hump it will have a hump in the finished mount. You can't get any closer than using a mold as a guide. I just finished a 1 lb. 6 oz. female that was full of eggs the size of a baseball. The bulge is there in the finished mount too.

Like I said your two gills are done. Driftwood for your two bluegills should arrive Monday. Once it arrives I'll get right to adding it to a base with habitat. You will be able to hang the gills on the wall or set it on a table etc. Either way.

Wished I could have taken a pic of a gill I got out of my bass pond the other day. (I think I mentioned this earlier.) He was as tall as he was long and couldn't have gone 10 inches (I didn't measure him as I wanted to get him into the perch pond ASAP) But I did weight him at 1 lb. 1/2 oz. If I had to guess only 9.5 inches.

BTW do you want to enter the above fish for catch and release of my website? I sure could use some entries. I must be missing something as I even had one person chew me out for having the web page!

That Bluegill obviously paid attention in geometry class. He's trying to shape himself in a perfect circle.

Cecil, I can't like to the record entry site from your taxidermy site. Am I doing something wrong?

There were no other witnesses to the catch. Does that disqualify me? If so I plan on catching several more like it this year.

Also I thought maybe I'd be disqualified based on the fact that a two-year-old could have taken a better picture.

At least I did get this one measured.

I didn't know there was a link from my taxidermy site? But I do think the link should be here. Is that what you mean?

Here try this:

http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/pprf/pprf.htm

I don't require a witness anymore as I don't require a certified scale either for kept fish. As far as pics you're O.K.

As long as you have a pic of the fish and you, and the length clearly visible it qualifies for a released fish. You make it with 11 inches.

Only snafu is my wife who does the web page won't be back for a month. She is in Germany with students. :p

Bruce - so much of air-over-the-gums about all the previous discussion about your male BG being light colored. Those fish were perfect examples of our description of color and hue in Part I of Growing Behemoth Bluegill.

OK, so I just run off a copy of the form and send it in, right?

Believe it or not, I don't have a printer. I'll have to get on the wife's 'puter sometime soon and do this.

Yes and I can use the pics you posted on this website.

Bruce said:

Bruce:

I showed that pic of the 11" Bull Gill to my best male Gills. It scared them so much they regressed back through puberty and are hiding on the bottom of the pond, eating frantically and doing pushups to get in good enough shape for CSBG Females.

The phrase "We're not worthy, we're not worthy!" keeps emanating up from under the water.

The darn things kinda look like the proverbial 1,000 pound gorilla.

Bruce and Theo plan selective BG propagation thru in-breeding ...wouldn't this make you guys "in-laws"? Have sufficient studies and scientific models been created, including all the potential x/y chromosome results? The ramifications of an unanticipated monster could be devastating! Please remember the lesson we learned with King Kong, the Amazing Colossal Man, and Pee-Wee Herman.

Bruce - what a great fish - congratulations...!
I'm with Eastland - I'll join him on a trip for some of your BG genetics to combine with our CNBG.

Talk about "Bubba"..WOW..

OH MAN !!!! -- What a panfish - his shape befits the name and I bet his weight is like one of the cast iron variety. Maybe I should say extra large biggie sized ten times real fast while the envy turns to pride for knowing someone who can grow BG like him.

CB1 I am still trying to catch a fish worth entering. I caught a few BG and RES but none worth even taking a pic.

Well at least you're trying! And thanks for not putting down the website!

WOW! Very nice BG Bruce!

Here's another one. Caught it when NEDOC came to visit. He took the pic.

I caught it on my second cast and it was 10 inches.

Corey caught several nice, fat yellow perch.

That looks like a new dish ware pattern -- called male BG deluxe.

I wonder what the dinner sized plate looks like.

Bruce, how are you catching your BG?
Flies - lures - bait?
Nice fish !!

I am only fishing in the cool of morning to avoid HSB stress.

The best way to "sample" bluegill is simple--1/32 ounce chartreuse jighead, barb down, with a third of a nightcrawler cast and hopped along the bottom. It's killer if you want to see a fish quickly!

Bruce:

I was this (pinch fingers together) close to posting "I hate you" (again) after that last picture. But since you are sharing the big BG fishing secrets - I LOVE YOU, MAN!

Thanks Bruce, I have no scruples about fishing in front of the feeder to "sample" BG population.
There will be dozens of BG waiting for the feeder to go off - I'll splash the water with a pellet fly a few times - let it sit - and the baddest BG in bunch will hit it.

You guys have about made BG my favorite fish - right behind HSB of course.

Honestly, that fish doesn't look as impressive on camera as it did in person. The cameraman must have done a poor job.


That was the most impressive conditioning of a bluegill that I have ever seen. But at Bruce's I think that is just another average bluegill.

BTW, I think the lure of choice for 'sampling' perch is a pink 1/32 oz. jighead and worm. It seemed as though all I could catch were perch and Bruce was catching the sought after BG's. It may have also been that he had home court advantage.

Nedoc, Bruce didn't tell you did he, he has all of his monster BG trained to only hit either his or his Dad's line. It's part of his secret anti-poaching program using Vulcan mind meld techniques.

Shorty, I would find that funny if it wasn't for the fact that Bruce would probably do such a thing. When you land the fish and he knows their name, last date they were caught, weight and length at that time, birthdate and who the parents are, I start to wonder if he has gone a little too far.

Bruce's fish looked impressive to me in the pic , but I know what you mean Nedoc. But he is not showing us the 14in. dinner sized plate version. They have been mind altered to only appear to Bruce. Even if Bruce shows up with a camera they take it away from him and laugh while they sing "we are the masters , we are the champions .. of the world.

Nedoc, I was out there the other night and all I caught was one very, very, fat perch, and yes Bruce had all the specifications on that perch. Bruce caught all of the trained and mind melded BG and not a single BG for me. Ewest, now I think I understand why I couldn't get that tune out of my head while we were fishing.

Ewest, I believe you are speaking of Bruce's redears, which I have been sworn to never speak of again.

Shorty, come to think of it, I couldn't get that tune out of my head either.

He may also know where they live.
--------------
There is a fine line between being a pond boss and being bossed by your pond.

Why do Bruce and the concept of "altered minds" constantly recur together? :p

Because wherever Bruce is not to far away is that guy named Dr. Frankenbruce and his friend Igor and the altered pets toothed BG, mean RES and killer YP.

ewest, and to think I was speculating that it was just staying up late on occasion drinking DMD and Jack mixers that led to some late morning bizarre big fish dreams, I would have bet that this was the true source of Bruce's creativity.

Just razzing ya Dr. Frankenbruce, now I know! :p

I like being razzed.

I just hope you're razzing me over a 2.5 pounder someday.

I would love to be there when that eventually happens, and you are on track for happening.

We will. Promise.

Thanks for humoring me and my constant bluegill banter...

How big does this one look?



I caught it today and I think it's the biggest bluegill that started in the selection program.

Pansize????

SOrrry that would almost by canabalism to brucey bruce bruce.

nice fishy

That lets me know I am doing something WRONG!!

Nice fish!

It LOOKS like a 10".

Now when I catch a 10 incher, it always turns out to be 8" after measuring (I have this problem with deer antlers, too. A 10 pointer always turns out to have only 8.)

But Bruce has like the opposite of this problem (which makes it an advantage - not a problem). SO I am going to guess that
this BG is a 12 incher!

- - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Very nice, Bruce. I am impressed as much by the height as by the impressive length.

12"?

Very nice fish Bruce! Keep this up and you'll need a whole new set of bigger dinner plates.

Four of Dr. Bruce’s fingers = ~3.1 inches, extrapolated to length of BG photo = 12.4 inches.
Great fish…!

Is that one of my ten?

Nice plate Bruce. Same size as the mounted pair. Eleven inches and 1.2 lbs.

I would say 10"...17oz.

OK Bruce, the suspense is killin’ us – what is length of your mega CSBG?

Upon further review of your CSBG, I enlarged the photo to a scale equal to the width of photgraphed four fingers. (~3.1 inches)

My revised guestimation, based on actual scale length, is 10.7 inches.

10 5/8 inches

1 lb 6 oz.

I'm kicking myself for not taking a picture of the fish from the top. It was the thickest bluegill I've ever seen....but I guess I should just be happy I didn't mess up the photo. This is a photo I took of myself, so I'm slowly getting better at using my new camera.

He's definitely got a helmet started. Also I'm pretty sure it was an immature fish.

george has your finger size down pat.

Bruce, what is the secret sauce that you put on the hook? Do you do any fly fishing for them?

P.S. The pond is doing great with the SHO2 running about 3 days a week. Lots of life and ZERO floaters.

BarO,

My secret sauce looks a lot like worm woo-woo.

I love fly fishing for them but usually don't have enough time. I did use a fly that George made and knocked 'em dead a few weeks ago in my big pond. The perch love George's fly too.

Glad your pond is doing better. I want a bumper sticker that says "Ask me about my zero floaters".

Let's just ignore the last picture, shall we?

I was fishing with my Dad at the farm just for a few minutes and I caught a fish that blew away every bluegill I've ever caught. I'll try to get a picture on in a bit.

I've been so jealous of Cecil for so long, but now I think I've got a fish that's close to comparable. Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but this is what I've been shooting for...

Lets not ignore the first pic. Can you give us the details on both. BTW that is a real big helmet head male CSBG.

Caught this fish with my Dad (at his pond) at 2 p.m. this afternoon. It was on a 1/32 ounce jig with a tiny piece of 'crawler on it. It was hooked so lightly that it fell off when I tried to hoist it. My Dad snapped a few quick pictures. Notice that this fish is immature. This indicates to me that it may have quite a bit of growth left in it. It was 11.25 inches and I'd estimate the weight at 2 pounds. I can't wait for Bill Cody to see this and render an opinion as to it's fitness.

I realize this is some pretty tight managing, but it's fun just the same.

...also notice the teeny-weeny head on this thing? I'm not even sure where this fish came from. It could be as young as age-4, or as old as age-5. I think this is a fish that Lusk and Willis helped me to take out of my production pond in February. If so, then this is a pretty young fish.

I also tried to get a shot of the thickness. I'm not sure if this will do it justice.

Bruce what about the first pic -- what are the #s. We want to know how close our guesses were.

At that age the second BG should have some more growth. I wonder about its maturity. It may not be exhibiting sexual maturity because of its being in an all male situation. I bet if it was in a mixed population it would be mature. What do you think about its visible delayed maturity and the reason?

Hey, Eric. I think I've cluttered this thread up so much that you missed the results of the first bluegill. It was 10 5/8 inches and 1 lb 6 oz. Due to the greater length and awesome body condition of the second one I think it would have weighed in at a solid two pounds but I was afraid of stressing this fish so it didn't get weighed.

I think you're exactly right about the delayed maturity being a result of the all male situation. I still have some bluegill that mature, but a much lower percentage. It may also be partly the result of the extreme scarcity of acceptable spawning areas. The slopes of this pond are extreme and I think only room for a couple of dozen nests at the most.

Bruce, The Sept 10th Bgill is an excellent specimen, a real dandy fish. However, what features on it make you think it is immature? It has some dark, although not distinct tipping of nape scales, a prominent dark soft dorsal spot, good mature male coloration. If the fish is 4 or 5 yrs old then definately you can expect some more growth over the next few years. Do you think this fish has similar sized siblings or is he leader of the pack?

I thought the really small ear tab was what sets him apart from the bedding males that I saw a couple months ago. He looks like he's really interested in growth as opposed to attracting females.

I'm not sure about the siblings, especially due to the fact that I didn't realize I had ANY fish this big.

Do not discount the variability in size of male bgill ear flaps. Also it is possible the ear flap my not grow or develop as fast as the other male characters. Very little has been published or studied as to the rate of opercular flap growth. Also other individual variable things (behavioral and/or hormonal) may help explain why this fish did not appear to be competitive with the other bedding males. Numerous unknowns on this topic.

Since this fish is a young male it may still be somewhat intiminated by the pre-existing older males and not aggressively establishing a rank in the center of the nesting colony. It is also possible that this fish is one of those rare individuals that is destined to attain the "atypical size" i.e. a rogue when it come to the normal growth plateau. I think sometimes individuals of each species get chemical and or genetic imbalances and this causes the rare unusual upper growth sizes evidenced in angling records. Many and most individuals of the species never attain the monster status due to various reasons.

Irregardless, since you did not harvest this fish it will continue to grow until it reaches the final limit. I eagerly await your future encounters with this fish.

remarkable fish bruce......i stand in awe. that helmet development is unbelievable.

Who knows he may even be one of the ones inclined to solitary nesting. I am not sure there would be a nest in the center of the colony big enough for him.

I was close on the first one. Only 3/8in and .3 off.

I would be tempted to put him in with some big female RES and let him 'mature'.

What's the old saying? Like son like father? If I ever grow one that big he's going on the wall. Or would I let him go to grow even bigger? What a dilemna to have.

Very funny.

...ahhh, the irony. A helmet, but no face.

Silly. The helmet covers the face and protects it. Form the looks of that boy above, next year he'll have grown a nose bar or possibly a facemask.

Very nice BG Bruce, and I mean very nice.

I just ran a seine this morning for the first time this fall. It was my little seine so I was just trying to get a sampling of my new YOY's in the bluegill program.

All of the fish were "late spawn" since they didn't get stocked until late June. I saw several thousand one to three inch fish. I also put about 300 in tanks. These fish ranged from 3-4.5 inches. I also recently purchased about 170 fish that were about the same size range. I'll be raising these fish in separate locations and then hopefully by June of 2008 I can mix and match some fish for further reproduction. These fish looked really nice. I'm also going to drain a couple in ponds in the next two weeks and see what else I've got.

I failed to bring the digital camera, but when I go back to the farm, possibly on Friday I'll try to remember so I can get a photo of these fish. For those of you who don't know (and I know many don't care), a 4.5 inch bluegill that's four months old is a really big fish. He's got little teeny eyes and a big hump already. Can't wait to show him off.

This was one of my questions but I never asked. How big should my YOY bluegill be? So 1 - 3 inches should be this years fish? If that is true then I had a good bluegill spawn this year. I wasnt sure if my dock fish that are 1 - 3 inch fish were this years or last years.

Cecil,

I have some incredible bluegill for you. When are you going to get a pickup and tank rigged up so you can make the trip?

They're way too big to ship! It would cost a million dollars.

If I ship some next year that are small enough how will we know which ones are the best ones?

Remember that I'll buy some big YP from you to pay for the gas.

Joey:

Your BG or my BG: 1"-3" is 2006 YOY.

Condello Strain BG: September 2006 YOM.

Thanks Theo, I have been culling out small bass like crazy. Been catching 7-11 inch bass like crazy on these FHM. I want my B/G population to get better.

Bruce that BG on page 6 is something..! Is that a common or coppernose? I am in NC, can you send me a few...? hehehe

If he's willing, you will be quite a ways down on the waiting list.

Bruce is in Nebraska with the particular northern (not CNBG) variant we only half jokingly call "Condello Strain BG" or CSBG. Only half joking, because if/when he is ready to ship them commercially, he will have a fair number of customers ready to order. And I think "CSBG" is as marketable a name as gorilla or tiger bass.

Well, the most surprising thing about the entire process is that the majority of the fish are normal size/growth rates. It seems, however that there are about ten percent that have exceptional growth. Somebody who knows more about genetics may eventually explain this to me.

Bruce - I think the key to your success is in culling or sorting out that 10% and then focussing on their growth.

Agreed. I've also had no problem selling the rest. I've been getting 30-50 cents apiece. The people who are interested in the bigger ones are giving as much as $1.08 each. I'm thinking of giving up the aquaculture license at the end of this year. This whole deal just doesn't pay worth a hoot.

Bruce wrote: "The people who are interested in the bigger ones are giving as much as $1.08 each. I'm thinking of giving up the aquaculture license at the end of this year. This whole deal just doesn't pay worth a hoot."

Well Duh!!! Anyone who's willing to pay $1.08 for a sunny would surely pay $1.10! Sometimes your two cents makes all the difference in the world.

The problem is marketing. Man don't sell those large ,award winning, world class, hand selected and pellet raised ,genetically improved, PB approved and certified CSBG for $1.08 or $1.10. Those are superior brood stock and should cost more like $5.00 per female and 7.50 per mail.

Oh Sunil, that's your best one for quite a while!

These were stocked in Feb. 3-4".
web page

Bruce, I'm trying to learn this BG thing! This is my first try at a BG pond. Had a jet black male almost take my cane pole away from me. I believe 1 coppernose and a native? Comments appreciated.

I think the top one is a CNBG based on the width of the bands. Can't tell about the other one.

To me I'm seeing a male bluegill (top) and a female bluegill (bottom). I can't tell about CNBG without a better side view of the fish.

I agree with Bruce.

This may or not work. Click on pic and a small box with arrows when clicked will enlarge...I hope.

FWIW..

I don't have a computer this week. Or last week, or next week for that matter. I've been using my wife's when she's not on it because mine has ceased functioning and is in the shop. So if you're sending me an email for anything I won't get it for awhile.

Bruce

ahvatsa look at this outstanding thread on CNBG with pics and it should help. It looks like your fish have some orange/light on the fins as well but still can't tell for sure. This thread tells how to check.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002562;p=1

Bruce,

I would love to have some of your bluegills but as you elluded to it doesn't sound very practical to Fed Ex them. And driving 22 hours one way is a little much , even if I do have a brand new vehicle to pick them up now (convinced the wife to trade in her Saturn passenger car for a V6 Vue SUV.)

I do have some fast growing dishpan shaped bluegills I may hold on to and restock into the big pond as broodstock once I refill it. Or I could get bluegills out of a nearby 800 acre lake that grow the largest in the state and use them for broodstock.

I've now seined 6,000 CSBG. I've kept the 50 biggest for myself, then #'s 51-160 are in a tank for Cecil. Anybody know someone who's going from Lincoln, NE to Ligonier, IN?? If they did I'd supply them with a tank and some oxygen.

...and Cecil, those crazy guys at Google maps tell me that it's 11 hours and 26 minutes one way. How slow do you drive??

ewest
Yes, that's an "outstanding thread on CNBG"! More info than I can digest in one sitting. In my 4a bass pond I choose to mix native and CNBGs. My plan is to add tilapia next spring, relieving some pressure off BGs, and hopefully grow some footers with time. At this time I will continue feeding...just too much fun watching them attack the feed.
Those in the pic posted are supposed to be CNBG and 100 were stocked in a small pond with 4# FHs. That small pond was changed though in June when I had to move 30 CCs to 25" because of dry conditions. I have caught 1...ONE...CC since then. It was 4lbs. on a cricket top water ultra light. Hard to believe they are so hard to catch. Too much food?
thanks for the informative link!

ahvatsa

One thing is sure . Whether CNBG or BG they are sure some nice ,fat, healthy looking lepomis. Good work BTW.

Oops I think alsheimers is setting in! I think what my poor memory did was remember the round trip as the one way distance.

Hmmm... doesn't sound so bad after all. However I do know coppernose won't survive up here. Coopernose are overwintering for you there? I was told by a biologist in Arkansas (Malone and Sons) that if they get ice cover they lose them all.

I've never seen a coppernose in my life. What is the farthest north they can survive?

...oh, I'll bet you were looking at "CSBG". That's a term I stole from Theo for "Condello Strain Bluegill". Perhaps I shouldn't dream of giving them a "strain" status. They're really just a coupla generations of good fish. Maybe in twenty years or so, when they're growing to be seven pounds we'll give 'em a name.

CNBG have about the same range as Fla. LMB. about the north line of Tenn. extended. North of there and they don't do well and north of that they don't survive long.

Sorry I guess I'm dyslexic too! At least I have a 138 I.Q. to make up for the negatives! (At least that's what one of those online I.Q. tests said!) :p I asked the wife if she thought my I.Q. was that high, and she laughed and said, "I don't think so."

I'll keep you posted. Headed on a 26 hour round trip to pick up 100 Canadian strain brook trout in a couple of days. All the way up through lower Michigan, and all the way across the U.P. of Michigan to a hatchery on Lake Superior in Wisconsin. At least I am staying at a friend's house on the way to break it up a little. Won't be able to get browns and bows until next spring probably thanks to the emergency transportation restriction (see appropriate post).

Here's a picture of a Condello strain bluegill that isn't very big. As a matter of fact, he's kind of puny. Basically a piece of doo-doo.



Here's a picture of a CSBG that is about average. He's a lot like any bluegill that is 17 weeks old. He might actually be a good one someday. If every thing goes right for him, he'll exceed a pound and put up a good fight. The eye on this fish is the same size as the eye on the next fish. The rest of the body is much smaller. He weighs 12 grams.



Here's a picture of a CSBG that is top of the line. He's eating pellets like there's no tomorrow. He weighs close to 40 grams. That's big for that age fish. He represents the top 3 percent of fish from this spawn.



Here he is getting weighed in.



This one is a monster. He weighs in at a whopping 50 grams. He literally eats some of his brothers and sisters for lunch. He is top 1 percent or better. You couldn't pay me enough money to part with him. He lives in my Morton building. Look how teeny-tiny his eye is. Most fish this age have bigger eyes in relation to their body size. Since he's only 17 weeks, his eye can't keep up with his body.



The fish on the right is 66 weeks old. He is angry. He doesn't like the fact that he's being forced to pose with a 2-year-old fish. The one on the left is a good fish, but he's no bigger than the one-year-old on the right.

Man, you might need to get help.

Bruce,

Back on 10/24 you posted about transporting fish from your place to Cecil. This site may be of some assistance:

http://www.ytmag.com/

Look for the "Community" section in the left margin. Click on Hauling Schedule.

Bruce, for the first time in the fish-crazed portion of my life, I have looked at the picture of a 4" BG and been so impressed I thought "WOW!" And that was the 40g 3 percenter. The 50g BG is just AWESOME!

My wife is right, I am truly obsessed.

Bruce this is off topic but what breed of dog is this in the picture?

Thanks Bruce for the pics and explanation. This should help people looking at BG to stock at the hatchery and in assessments at the pond. Try to get/keep the ones with comparatively small heads and eyes and big bodies. Also ask their age.

I have a neighbor with an uninhabited pond who wanted some CSBG. I brought some examples over to him and stocked the best ones. Would you believe that I barely remember that there was even a dog present? :rolleyes:

When I talk to him again I'll ask what the breed of the dog was. Anybody an expert out there?

It looks like a young boxer to me.

It's no coonhoundello.

That's for sure !! LOL.

I thought it might be a Boxer.

Looks like a boxer to me also, with a brindle coloring

Copied from another thread.


"Actually Bill, I have had several ponds over the last four years that were all age-1 fish, and consequently I can drain a pond, then stock another, so that I'm watching these same fish over an entire growing season again. My best fish get easily 5-6 ounces during a calender year, but by the same token, I'll have other fish that get 1-2 ounces, and these fish are sent to other ponds to live out their lives in mediocrity just kidding--many of these fish end up as good quality one pounders with ample forage and artificial feeding. I think one of the keys is the ability to provide high quality natural forage during the winter months, so that a fish that gets 3 ounces during the optimal 4 months can squeek out another 2 ounces during the other eight months.

One of my best managed ponds was tested by biologists who officially weighed and aged the bluegill. The fish that were hovering around 1 pound were all 4-6 years old. I also know that the famed Pelican Lake (NE) bluegill sometimes reach 1.5 pounds in as little as 6-7 years. It takes special conditions, but it can be done.

Since the best age-1 fish go into their second growing season around 1-2 ounces, I think an ideal trophy Nebraska bluegill situation might go something like this.

Entering age-1 1 ounce
Entering age-2 6 ounces
Entering age-3 11 ounces
Entering age-4 16 ounces
Entering age-5 20 ounces
Entering age-6 24 ounces
Entering age-7 28 ounces
Entering age-8 32 ounces

This of course if for a premium genetic specimen with virtually unlimited natural forage supplemented with pelleted feed as needed.

My best fish are following this general template, as I do have documented fish that are age-4 that reach one pound".

Bruce - Back on Nov 07 you showed us 17 wk old (4.2mo) BG that were 40g to 50g (1.3-1.6oz). At this growth rate, can we expect the select few to be 2oz to maybe 3 oz at one yr instead of 1 oz noted above? If so this would make the chances greater that the elusive 2 lb would be very feasable. We know that the first year's growth is very important in achieving trophy status.

When your BG are one pound, how close are they to 10.4"(the standard wt)?

I'm just going by memory, and I can check for sure later, but my bluegill hit one pound at somewhere around 9 3/4 inches.

I made a phone call today to Nebraska Game and Parks Commission fisheries chief Don Gabelhouse and he said that the greatest expert on the unbelievable Pelican Lake bluegills is none other than Dr. Dave Willis. Don Gabelhouse said that he believed the two pound bluegill at Pelican were around age-7, give or take a year.

I completely agree with your assessment that the odds of reaching two pounds go up considerably when the fish are growing throughout the year, including the winter. Hopefully my fish will have that chance.

Bruce
Sorry this may have already been stated and I have missed it since I have skimmed through the thread, but do you think that your BG will grow during the winter months? Are they in a outside pond or inside tank that is heated? Just curious becasue your weather will be cooler than mine typically. I am wondering if my fish will grow any during the cold months I think not.

With ample natural forage, bluegill will grow a little during the winter months. It's very minimal, but in ideal conditions that can gain some weight in cold water. Yellow perch are also known to be able to gain some weight in the winter. I'm also raising bluegill indoors, and they have gained weight just in the last month, however the water is averaging about 54 degrees F., which is fairly warm for around here. My main ponds are around 42 degrees F.

Please note Bill's Comment !!

"We know that the first year's growth is very important in achieving trophy status."

It applies to at least several species and is critical for trophies especially in fish who will get limited supp. feeding the rest of their lives. So make the most of the first year if possible.

I completely agree with Bill's comment and ewest added emphasis.

I think that this would be a good time to eventually have an archivable post that adresses what things we can do to our ponds to make for either "great fish" or "great fishing". Providing for optimal early growth of your fish is a virtual necessity for growing trophy game fish. Interestingly enough, some of the things we can do to allow for "great fishing" are at odds with what we can do to assure "great fish". I'd like to have somebody start a post that gives some of the very basic points in respect to this.

Just adding a photo to this thread.

WOW

NICE...!!!
Weight and length?

This fish was one of five that we caught that looked all about the same. I didn't weigh any except the first big one, and the others were quickly photographed with an estimated length of between 10 and 11 inches. I didn't document the photo vs. event, so this could even be the same one photographed earlier. I just liked this particular angle of the fish and know that a couple of the pondmeisters like such photos so I threw it on the thread. He is a beauty though, eh?

This one goes into my MOJO Condello BG folder.
Guess 'ya know - y'all got me hooked on BG...
next to HSB of course

Shoulder pads, a helmet, and a breastplate - that's one BG ready for on-line RPGs.

Nice fish. Was that today? BTW you will see that pic at the convention. Excellent photo quality.

All of the big bloo-gies were caught in September, October, and early November. I actually have a little open water near the sweeper nozzle. I was tempted to fish today.

I've been studying Bruce's photo and I believe that I have discoved Bruce's secret to raising such large BG.....

Everytime Bruce catches a BG he holds it above a cutting board as a reminder to what happens to BGs that don't grow to enormous proportions.

OH THE HORROR!!!!

Kind of like the racehorse we bought when it was first in line at the rendering plant. To get it to go, instead of "giddy-up" you just hollered "NEXT!"

Bruce,

I've had several growers up this way say not to handle or stress bluegills or bass in that cold of water. Something about developing fungus. Do you concur?

It totally makes sense to me, but when I handle bluegill in cold water it's usually with the specific intent to eat the fish--so I'm not sure.

You've got me thinking, though. I'll probably resist the temptation, because my ponds are going to be fishable this week 'cause it's gettin' warm out.

Bruce,

Very nice fish! In your post you mentioned eating BG. With my mindset being that all your fish are true trophies, at what point do you decide to cull a fish??

I cull all females and all fish with Wr's less than 100--in other words every fish that isn't really, really chunky.

Dr Bruce says - "I cull all females and all fish with Wr's less than 100 ---in other words every fish that isn't really, really chunky." This is an example of selective harvest and breeding that is what growing trophy fish is all about.

I don't know if you can see the difference in size, but here is an update from today.



This is at 28 weeks.

The average of the top 75 fish is 4.77 inches, and this one is 5.25 inches.

The average length of the next 75 fish is 4.01 inches.

The average length of a random sampling of other early age-1 fish is 2.75 inches, but this includes many fish that were likely born later in the summer or even early in the fall. Currently most of these fish are stuck in a shallow pond covered with snow. I fear for their safety because of possible oxygen problems. Wednesday I was pushing snow off of the pond until the ice started to sag.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is the same fish from 11 weeks ago. I've been trying to select one of the biggest three fish for pictures so this could be the same guy.

FYI, gentle readers, Dr. Condello is pushing for a 1 year old BG that measures 8" in length. For the record, I'm betting the "over", not the "under".

Bruce, you are an inspiration to a guy that once thought BG's were only "bait"
CONGRATULATIONS...

Dang, I'd like 500 please. How much would shipping to California cost?????

Depends on the size. Probably not too bad for one-inchers. I think a guy could have a tank setup like me or Theo and buy 600-700, then grow them out for six months and stock them. For the shipping you'd save you could buy the tank setup.

This past week, USA Today had a short article on aquaculture. This article also had a breakdown of the major fish species that are being grown. Unfortunately, the list did not contain the Condello BG strain.

Nice fish Bruce!

I tried to track down the biggest bluegill in the tank today. My tank bluegill are 31 weeks old. The largest one I could find weighs 66 grams. This was before feeding. For perspective, two ounces is about 56 grams. There really isn't a lot of length increase going on. This fish was still 5.25 inches (actually 134 mm). I'm embarrassed to admit that I've lost my Wr table so I'll have to check with Dave Willis or Bill Cody sometime.

I also had the following two bluegill.

118 mm @ 48 g
116 mm @ 48 g

(edited post, I had to correct my data--sorry)

The smallest I saw on one source is 6 inches which has a Wr of .2 lbs.

Sorry, if anyone read the above post I wrote the wrong data. It's now corrected.

Bruce
Have you ever calculated how efficient the bluegills are at feed conversion? In my Tilapia growout I got down to 1.2 pounds of feed per pound of fish. Some tilapia guys list data going down to 1 pound of feed per pound of fish! Are bluegills anywhere near that kind of feed efficiency. If they are, maybe the Condello strain can cure world hunger!

My bluegill have a feed conversion ratio of around 2:1.

Two pounds of feed equals one pound of fish mass. This is the conversion in my ponds. I don't know what it is in the Po'Boy tanks.

I'll bet the tank ratio is better. I'll have to do some calculating.

This brings up an interesting point. Feed conversion ratio in fish is a confusing term, because you are converting dry (feed) weight into wet (fish flesh) weight. A 1:1 ratio is really like a 5:1 ratio if you take this into account.

It's probably all the chicken feathers in the feed that keep it from converting better.

I'd think the other way around, if the pond fish are getting any natural feed. Unless the lack of exercise in tank fish makes up for that.

A little over 32 weeks old the bluegill have the following numbers:

Top 75 bluegill average length 4.97 inches with the best fish at just under 5.5 inches.

Next best 75 bluegill average length 4.16 inches.

The biggest bluegill was 74 grams, or about 2.6 ounces.

I think you're right, Theo, in a world where the pellets are all getting eaten by bluegill. I think that turtles, a few HSB and a lot of pellets getting wasted by floating to shore screws up my numbers. I would like to try getting a feed conversion ratio on the bluegill in a bluegill only pond but I haven't done that yet. In my HSB only pond it was always around 2:1.

Lack of exercise is definitely a factor...

Maybe I should just quit yapping my mouth and actually do it right.

Lack of exercise is definitely a factor in what? and how?

They're not burning calories swimming around looking for food and fun, and avoiding trouble. IME tank Lepomis mostly loaf, except when disturbed by their only predator (me).

Nobody will know until you do the deed and crunch the numbers, Bruce.

I can somewhat relate to the lack of exercise.

It seems that you need a control group to do it right and get a somewhat, but only somewhat, true comparison.

To get to a true ceterus parabus, Bruce would have to exercise the BG and also totally control feed consumption of 2 groups. And, that's about as egg headed as I want to get.

Yeah, and my 2:1 estimated BG convesion ratio is based on an "assumed" number of individuals in my pond that have been being stocked over a 2.5 year period. I "think" I've got 505 bluegill, but it could be more or less on many, many factors. Every time I see a dead bluegill I substract 5 from the number of fish in the pond because that model has yielded somewhat accurate numbers in the past when I've drained ponds. In reality I could have anywhere from 200 to 900, which, obviously, skews my feed ratio a little. It's bad science, but it gives me an idea how much feed to kick out of the feeders.

Factor in standard temp in Po-Boy and that could well make up most of any difference. Temp plays a huge part in metabolism in cold-blooded fish. Bruce's RAS YP kept growing over winter because the Temp in the RAS was not Neb. cold. I thought they got some natural food also (worms , FH, etc ).

When it gets to hot or cold metabolism slows down and food use conversion changes from optimum temp range. In the RAS you stay in the optimum temp range and metabolism stays high as does food conversion. You want to add flesh not fat from sitting around as it weighs more . But this is not a grow fish for feeding people (aquaculture) operation so is food conversion really that important ? There are lots of studies with different ways to measure weights -- wet to wet , dry to wet, dry to dry. IIRC they mostly end up with dead fish. Not my idea of the right place for a prize CSBG . I don't think you can get accurate food conversion rates in a pond where the fish are eating natural food ; all you can do is take the controlled study rates from the studies and extrapolate it to how much food you put in the pond and what to expect to see resulting from the fish . As a pond management tool it is an estimate of what to expect , not a measurement of results. I would suggest that what Bruce is doing is better - take avg growth rates , sizes and weights along with the # of fish and calculate weight of fish to amount of food -- and then you know "How much did the food help" aka How many pounds of extra fish did I get with X lbs of supp. food. Do this in a rough way by comparing your fish to Std RW fish or your fish from a non-feed pond to the feed pond.

Top 75 bluegill average length 4.99 inches and 49.5 grams.

Next 75 bluegill average length 4.18 inches and 28 grams.

Some of the average fish that have been kept in tanks are ranging from 6-16 grams.

As noted in "Cecil Envy" post I'm thinking of adding a heater to the system to speed the growth. The only problem is that the flow-through aspect of the tanks is critical for me since I'm only there two or three times each week. The flow-through keeps the water fresh, but also limits how much I can heat the water. I could conceivably spend a bunch of money on electricity just to heat the water that's spilling out into the ponds. Not exactly a good use of resources.

Top 75 bluegill average length 5.10 inches and 56 grams.

Next 75 bluegill average length 4.24 inches and 32 grams.

Biggest fish I could find is 76 grams.

I'm going to have a celebration, maybe like a Jack Daniels toast when the first fish hits 85 grams. The magic three ounce mark.

Take a loom at this 12 month Blue Gill. This is one of the "average BG" we now have in our pond. They are running 8-9" in length and weigh 8-10oz. based on my fish scales. i will show you other pictures at the conference. These are pellet fed daily, and fed all winter long.

Is that 12 months after stocking?

What month were they stocked and how big were they at that time?

Nice fish. Very good "helmet" on that fish.

Bruce,

Here is a link to the stocking plan used by Mike's POA.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003732;p=1

The fish were bitting last night.




Can you say too many BG


I know this is a BG tread but I caught this nice 15 in LM also.

OK, M Spinhirne, so your fish were added March, '06, and were 2-3 inches. That means they were likely spawned in 2005, so they are what is known as "age-2". A bluegill in a new pond, with tons of natural forage, and constant access to pellets, and year around warm water temps should be able to get to 8 inches pretty easily. Up here in Nebraska it would take at least another year. I think the big thing is that your pond must have really good invertebrate communities to support such excellent growth.

Nice job.

In fisheries science terms that BG is age 2 (barley). Common sense dictates another approach. I find it much more useful here to put small fish ages in terms of months as near as possible. That is because of the variation in spawn times that hatcheries have. In the deep south you may see a hatchery with 3 or 4 distinct yoy age groups of BG or more in one spawn season. On Dec 31/Jan 1 a hatchery may have 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 and 5 in. yoy/age 1-2 BG (actually anywhere from 2 to 9 mths old) . Mike's are probably 17 mths +- .

FWIW, when someone who doesn't measure bluegill on a regular basis reports 2-3 inch bluegill, nine times out of ten the fish will be 3 to 4 inches. I've seen that so many times I've lost count. A true two inch bluegill is barely identifiable.

The other fish that people always underestimate length from the hatchery is channel catfish. When people guess 10 inches, the fish is generally 12. It has something to do with the long forked tail.

Bruce, posted below is illustration of procedure for “ legal” measurement of fish in Texas.
Is this method commonly accepted by other states and fisheries biologists?

George,

Every article I've read on measuring fish shows the procedure you posted above.

Does that mean now I can claim my 12 inch, 2 lb CNBG?
With proper documentation of course....

As an angler I used to measure all of my fish with a sewing tape measure on top of my fish from nose to tail. Once I made a measuring board out of 6 inch PVC cut down the center length wise with a tape measure permanently mounted on it I was amazed at the difference in length between the two methods! A 19 inch fish using the board would be up to 2 inches longer with the tape meaure over the top. I point this out to my customers and they are surprised too.

Bruce,
You are right in that the fish are 12 months after stocking. The fish were reported to be 2-3" and were probably based on the picture we took at the time. unfortunately I did not get any of the individual fish, but you can see where we have come in 12 months in the lake.
Erik is likely correct in estimating that they were from the last spawn of 2005, and since they came from South Texas, that probably took place in late October, making them 15-16 months old.
I have attached pictures of the stocking and now, as well as one of the bass that we stocked in May. I had recommended waiting another year to add the bass based on the forum advice, but the biologist hired by the developer wanted to add only 3 months after adding the BG. Of note, he stocked lowere levels of BG than I wanted, and higher stocking rates of bass. Fortunately both seem to be doing okay.

My bluegill reproduction pond sits directly below my Morton building. This is naturally the most fertile pond that I've got because it catches the runoff from the original construction site, and it also catches all of the outflow from the Po'Boy RAS and the waste contained therein.

I'm taking bluegill from ponds that are known age-2 bluegill, then selecting the best ten males and females. Then I'm selecting another ten males and ten females from the age-3 and age-4 ponds. Then I mix them together and see what I get.

Bruce we know what you get and I know others want to see !!! .

Just for breeding/creating/raising/instigating/having a BG of that quality I think that Bruce should be given an honorary doctorate in fishology from the Pond Boss Institute of Higher Learning and Stuff.

Accordingly, by all the powers vested in me I do hereby bestow up you Bruce Condello an honorary Doctorate in Fishology complete with all the rights and privileges that do convey with a title of this prestigious nature.

{Note: the only powers vested in Jeffhasapond by pond boss are all in his head. The only campus of Pond Boss Institute of Higher Learning and Stuff exists soley in Jeff's rampant and somewhat demented imagination. Accordingly the only rights and privileges that convey with an honorary degree of this nature is the ability to get a senior discount at Denny's restaurant - - assuming of course that you are of requisite age.}

That being said I do think that somehow Bruce should be recognized. Do they give out a Nobel Peace Prize for raising humongous BG???

I am happy to accept this great honor on behalf of Bruce, who is off somewhere growing or catching fish. He has assured me that he will not rest until all of us who are big BG enthusiasts are culling fish this size:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffhasapond:
....I do hereby bestow up[on] you Bruce Condello

Is it just me, or the wording above slightly disturbing? [I fixed it.]

Thank you so much for this honorary honor. I will make every effort to make you proud by catching a bigger bluegill this summer and posting it's pictures on this website, since nobody else on any other website would be even remotely interested.

subliminal freudian envy

:D Stupid, stupid keyboard!


Photos of your BG are always appreciated. It gives us novices an idea of what a great BG should look like.

:D

Top 75 fish average length was 5.22 inches and 60 grams. That's an average Wr of 129.

Next 75 bluegill average length is 4.32 inches and 34 grams. That's an average Wr of 137.

Biggest fish was 5.75 inches and 80 grams which is a Wr of 126.

These results could be a little biased because I only sample what look like 10 representative fish from each tank, every time I take readings. Also I'm not sure about the biggest fish because the bubbles from the aerator make it a little hard to see each time.

Interestingly, it seems like the warmer water, which has crept up near 59 degrees has made the fish go through a sort of puberty. They've kind of taken off in length, but they're a little more streamlined looking.

Interesting that as those BG get longer the Wr goes down.

That makes me think of the TPW 16 year study of LMB which found that the initial fastest growing LMB did not end up as the biggest fish for a variety of reasons.

Bruce copy that chart as a pic and post it or send it to me and I will.

Just sent it to you. I couldn't figure out how to make it look like a real chart. The figures were provided by Dr. Willis.

Here's a pretty decent top view of what a really healthy bluegill might look like. I can't recall if I've posted this in the past.

"Really healthy" is an understatement! That thing should be a linebacker for your mighty Huskers. Very impressive, Bruce. Now I know what I'm working toward.

I've been thinking about printing and laminating some of Bruce's bluegill photos and suspend them between the 3 to 5 foot deep range in various locations of my pond, sort of an inspiration message to my young bluegill.

WHEN GOOD BLUEGILL GO BAD.

SAME FISH 74 DAYS AGO.

He's gone from 5.25 inches to 5.625 inches. Current Wr is 138.

Bruce, here's a sampling of CNBG that were stocked 9/20/06 @ 1"-1.5" (sampling was produced by the Wild Bill Cody Method) . I moved the top one to my Male BG pond, hope it's a male (only BG transferred so far)! How would you sex the other three? I can PM larger photos if needed.

Robert

To small in those pics for me to hazard a guess.

Try these, also do think the growth rates are acceptable? My quess was the top two are male and the bottom two female.

See what you think based on these from Bill , Bruce and Cecil.

In response to FamTrad's post above.

I'd give my opinion on sex, and the percent certainty that I'd assign to it.

1. (top picture) Male 80%. The color is so washed out it's hard to say for sure.

2. Male 70%. Again the color is so bland I can't tell for sure.

3. No idea.

4. Even less of an idea.

I think if I saw a bunch of fish that were adults, out of this pond I could get a better feel for it, but the lack of color makes it kind of iffy.

Thanks Bruce, all fish were tiny when stocked last September and right now this is all I have to work with.

I agree with Bruce's opinion. All four are immature. The top two fish might spawn later this summer. If I was stocking all male BG in a pond none of them would go in at their present condition. They need to be more mature to be 100% positive.

FT check to see if I am right and post here when you know. I bet those BG grow 2 inches before summer ends and that they spawn this summer in your location with a new pond. The growth rates are good (normal).

Like Bruce and Bill based on the pics I would not put them in an all male pond. By July you should be able to tell much better on these fish. A few days before the full moon in late July fish on the BG beds and you will be able to tell which are males.

Thanks for the responses Eric, Bruce and Bill.

Measurements taken on April 13.

Top 75 bluegill average length is 5.26 inches and 62 grams.

Next 75 bluegill average length is 4.36 inches and 36 grams.

The water temperature is 52 degrees. The average water temp readings over the last two weeks of really cold weather has been 51 degrees. A little over two weeks ago we had water temps of 59 degrees in the tank. Obviously this has slowed the growth somewhat.

The overall winter average weight gain was a little bit over 2 grams per week, which I thought was a little less than I had hoped for, since that would mean it would take 4 years to achieve one pound, but I'm thinking that if the water temps get into the upper sixties and seventies for the next 26 weeks that maybe I can average a little better than that. If the year long average were 2.5 grams per week I would add 130 grams per year, which would get me to one pound in less than three and a half years.

If you raise bluegill on krill they get interesting markings on their gill plates.

....and if you let your Dad fish for yellow perch, sometimes he will catch a bluegill/redear sunfish.

Dang you Bruce !! I knew you would let the cat out of the bag on those giant Redgilled Meanfish or is it Blueared Angryfish. Now that you have posted a pic of the experiential version lets see all the data. Shorty and Nedoc will be over there fishing for them in the morning now that you have spilled the beans.

I missed your earlier post on growth rates. From what I have read BG should have a much higher growth rate in summer than that compared to winter. If winter rate was 2 grams then summer rates should raise the average more than .5 . I will see what I can find.

Looks like you've got a good patch of FA growing there. Nice fish for their age, though.

Yeah Burger, I spent the last two days raking it away from my feeder dock so the fish could eat! I hope to get my tilapia from Todd next week and put them to work.

Cut and pasted from another thread...


You know, Cecil got #105-305, and I kept #'s 1-104. This was out of around 6,000 sorted through. After Cecil got his fish I took the ones that I kept and put them in a lined pond and started up the automatic feeder. I've had two interesting observations, one expected, and one highly unexpected.

First observation: My bluegill are feeding very agressively. When the feeder goes off in the morning and in the evening the bluegill go nuts and eat every speck they can get ahold of.

Second observation (big surprise!): The fish are extremely spooky! I can't get a look at them because if I am in the near vicinity they will scatter and go completely off the feed. Why in the world would fish that I hand fed for six months in a 150 gallon tank be this way? Don't get me wrong--I'm glad they're spooky. I don't want them following around every tall object that happens by the pond (see notes on Great Blue Heron). Finally I got so frustrated that they wouldn't let me watch them, that I took an almost microscopic fly on my flyrod, and pinched down the barb and caught one. He fought like a freakin' maniac. 6 5/8 inches and fat as all get out.

Unfortunately I don't think I'm going to get that 8 inch threshold in 12 months. Maybe I've got a few 7's--I don't know.

I'm going to cut and paste this post to the "questions about raising bluegills" thread for future reference.

bruce, dont you think they had just enough "up close and personal" with you over the LONG winter? in this relatively huge pond environment, they probably feel free and are exhibiting their "wild" side now.

i wish i knew the starting level of many of my fish. i stocked a range from 3-5 inches. it seems some will reach 8-inches this season, but it must be those that started their new life in Feb. as 5-inchers.

many of my BG are in the "following around every tall object" category. my wife plays along and calls me the pied piper of my fish. truth is i'd like to think it was just me, my magnatism and wonderful personality, but i know they'd follow anybody......even the herons and egrets.....even jeff if he's willing to visit again

i am AMAZED at the strength of BG in the 6-inch class on small fly tackle....its an absolute blast. the GSF in that size class are even stronger. if they get hook shy even to tiny flies, and to make sure yer guests can continue to outfish you (occassionally) .....have them put a tiny worm chunk on end of hook, reward the group later w/ a personal hand thrown bunch of aquamax....they will continue to be the gift that keeps giving.

on a side note.....as with water witching....i am completely shunned by my father and brother for placing tiny worm chunks on flies and calling it "fly fishing". perhaps i share a small similarity in this light here w/ george and his pellet flies.

fish on.

Dave, alls fair in love, water witchin’, war, and fishin’….
My definition of a “fly”, is anything that can be cast on a fly line – I love to drive the purists nuts...

Bruce, my forage/grow-out pond goal continues to evolve.

Since larger HSB stockers are now readily available, there is no need to pursue “growing” out small HSB to avoid predation in main pond…..

I am currently transferring 10-12 inch 2006 class HSB from ¼ acre pond to main 2 acre pond, leaving a few 2#+ 2005 class HSB in the ¼ acre pond to attempt controlling current prolific CNBG spawn.

In attempt to enhance Florida CNBG genetics in main pond, my male only “cull” Arkansas strain CNBG are being moved to grow-out pond. I am removing ALL females caught from small pond.

AQMX 600 feed program – don’t want the small gills to get feed trained, thus the larger pellets.

I am moving all 9 inch+ male Arkansas trait CNBG to small pond BG pond for fun fishin’….

You guys have caused trouble for a guy that once thought BG’s were only bait?...

Good man! I see I am infecting many of you with this madness.

That sounds logical, george. I have noticed, however, that the smaller the BG I'm feeding, the bigger the pellet they try to eat. Anyone else notice this? Maybe my BG are completely illogical.

Bruce, you certainly infected me -- and it is really paying off. A little over a year ago I couldn't tell a boy bluegill from a girl bluegill until I was cleaning it.

I don't have my spreadsheet in front of me, but of about 75 bluegill caught this season, my median size (male and female combined) is over 8 inches. We keep all females below about 9 inches, and all brightly colored males under about 6.5 inches. Most of the males we catch are between 8.5 and 10.5 inches.

Thanks Bruce -- and Bill C., and Cecil, and Theo, and ewest . . . . and all the rest of you. Until I found Pond Boss, I never realistically believed anybody, especially me, could have such a fantastic bluegill pond.

Ken G.

Median size over 8 inches is fabulous!

Good idea on releasing the biggest females. I think they have good genetics, and are most likely fish that utilize feed. This way you are tilting the balance a little bit toward rapidly growing, high feed conversion fish.

I guess I should ask--are you feeding?

Yes, we feed. This is our third season with this pond, and we've been feeding since we bought this property.

This year the bluegill started coming up for food about the 2nd week of April. Monday thru Thursday, we hand feed every evening just after the sun goes behind the mountain (about an hour before "real" sunset). Since about the middle of May, we've been feeding about 1/2 pound each time. On most Fridays through Sunday, we also put out another half-pound around 7:00 AM. This is a half-acre pond.

We now have about four LMB joining the evening feeding frenzy. One is about 11 inches, and the other three are 8-9 inches. They are really a lot of fun to watch, because they act like the pellets are dragon flies above the water. One or two of the smaller ones likes to dance on his tail.

Getting most of the big catfish out, starting the "Condello Monster Blugill Plan," dropping in a bunch of white pine around the shoreline, and seriously thinning the stunted bass, has resulted in huge numbers of forage bluegill and bass -- which I worry about a little bit. But, the formerly stunted and skinny bass have turned into fat eating machines that sure look healthy. It is a lot of fun to watch them in the evenings, as they just about beach themselves while chasing the forage. No trophy bass, but lots of really great looking 9 to 14 inchers, and one 18 incher who will become dinner next time he gets on a line.

The pond had a lot of crappie, and a fair number of RES the first year we had the pond. We kept every crappie, and some of the RES. Somehow, all the RES and crappie completely disappeared. I am wondering what happened to them.

theo, back in march before i started grinding up the AQMX 600, they would swarm the pellets and work on them until they saturated and broke up, but a couple would get the whole thing down their gullet. i think a couple of my smaller BG died from inhaling the entire pellets.

now (June) the 6-inch GSF get them all before the smaller BG can work on them, i call em "my little fattys"

all's fair in fishin.....as long as yer fishin.....to be sure George

Research just for you BG lovers.

Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 1979

Growth Rates and Temperature Selection of

Bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus

THOMAS L. BEITINGER 1 AND JOHN J. MAGNUSON

Laboratory of Limnolog'y, University of Wisconsin

Madison, Wisconsin 53706

Abstract

Growth rates of individual juvenile bluegills fed 0.75, 2.0, 4.0, and 6.0% dry body weight day -t

and ad libitum at constant temperatures were smaller above (34 C) than within (30 or 31 C) or

below (25 and 28 C) this species' preferred temperature range. For each feeding regime growth

rate did not differ significantly at temperatures below 34 C.





Our experiment evaluated the growth of pond-reared hybrid bluegills fed equal amounts of food either once or four times per day. We were particularly interested in reducing the size variation and increasing the percentage of harvestable-size fish (110 g). After 194 d, there was no significant effect of feeding frequency on growth, food conversion efficiency, size variation, or percentage of harvestable-size fish.

Very interesting on there being no difference in growth from feeding frequency. It is hard for me to (hand) feed my BG more than once a day; I've decided this year I'm not going to try. Looks like it may be a moot point.

I'm glad this thread is active again. I have had this thought in my head but was reluctant to bring it up because I didn't know if it has been discussed before or if it is really worth mentioning. Anyhow here it goes.

As I understand from Bruce (and some others) that by keeping some of the largest male BG in your pond you suppress the sexual maturation of the younger male BG and make them reach a larger size before they start burning energy spawning (locker room effect ). My question is could the young BG be fooled by a decoy of a big male BG. Decoys are used in hunting all the time and are able to fool animals smarter than fish. I was thinking of a plastic decoy attached to a weight by some clear mono. The decoy would be suspended over a weight and maintain a natural level stance. The decoy would be a big male in full breeding color and several could be placed in the spawning area. It would need some algae resistant coating. Do you think this could fool the fish?

I would think it would be best in a new stocked pond or a pond where the harvest of eating size BG is high.

Maybe a cage experiment with one group penned up with a few decoys and another cage as a control group could be done and you could see if there is any difference in maturation. Has this ever been done before? Am I all wet on this idea? Don't hold back I can take it.

Cecil seems like the ideal guy to develop the decoy and make it realistic. I am willing to volunteer Cecil's time and money if this idea has potential :rolleyes: . Besides if it works it could be a neat little side business.

All kidding to Cecil aside I would like to hear opinions on this pro and con. Also if I am spending my time thinking about putting fake fish in a pond to intimidate real fish so they will grow bigger do I have some serious issues :rolleyes: ?

I got a sawbuck that says the best looking decoy won't do it - I strongly suspect the maturation suppression is more chemical (like pheromones) than anything else.

I think any male bluegill will challenge any other bigger male bluegill at least once. In real life the smaller bluegill will get his butt kicked, then back off. If the case of the decoy--no butt kickin', so the smaller bluegill wins and takes over the area. Consequently, I don't think the decoy works.

Me either as I think Theo and Bruce are on the money. Plus even if effective you would need a lot of decoys to suppress all those little males trying to act big. An all male pond would be a better option.

But it is a good question as it makes us think about why BG act as they do and justify or reasons. There are no bad questions on this forum only ones that need to be answered after some thought about the subject !!! Questions are the life blood of this forum -- so please ask them - all of them and often.

About six or seven years ago, perhaps around 1999, there was an excellent article on this "big bluegill keep little bluegill from maturing" issue in the State of Illinois conservation magazine. I have never subscribed to the magazine, don't even know it's name. Someone faxed me the article. The article seemed to have some very good research in it and I recall it was by a fishery biologist at the U Of I. If anyone has a way of checking that out it might be worthwhile. As I recall, the premise was that the smaller males were "impressed" at the larger ones selection of location, etc. and decided to hold off maturing until they got bigger. At the time I just laughed it off, but the more I read the more I believe larger ones keep the smaller ones from spawning. However I still have trouble believing it out of envy over the bigger fishes love nest. I remember making a copy of the story and sending it to Lusk, but that was many years ago.

Bing

Ewest,

Sample sizes are awfully small in that study. Only five fish per sample?

What are actual starting sizes for the bluegills? Most of the studies I see for growth on bluegills are for small fish in small indoor tanks, which I question their relativity to larger fish in open waters.

Not trying trying to be adversarial as I always appreciate the data you post, but I'm naturally skeptical.

Cecil it is good to look with a skeptical eye. That is from 2 of several studies on the subject and they note many variables especially wrt ponds (such as natural food). I posted it because Bruce and or you ask about temp effects on growth rate. It covers that subject well. Even that I think would be subject to local genetic conditioning/variation. Looks like those samples were repeated and some were 12. Let me check the study on that point. I do think the growth rate at temp #s are right. It was not posted for the # of times and amounts of feed. That is better covered in the studies on compensatory feeding.

Bing I have several studies on the subject you refer to. Not sure they are the exact same one. They are similar accross the board and state large male BG supress small male BG wrt spawning thus allowing the small ones to convert that energy to growth not early reproductive activity. Is this the one you were talking about?

North American Journal of Fisheries Management 1997;17:516–524

Effect of Population Size Structure on Reproductive Investment of Male Bluegill
MARTIN J. JENNINGS, JULIE E. CLAUSSEN, and DAVID P. PHILIPP

Illionis Natural History Survey, Center for Aquatic Ecology, 607 East Peabody Drive, Champaign, Illinois 61820, USA

Abstract.—Although a goal of fisheries management is to understand factors affecting the growth rate and size structure of exploited populations, the relation between growth rates and variation in reproductive behaviors in Lepomis species has received little attention. Allocation of energy to reproductive functions (e.g., gonadal maturation, gamete production, nesting and spawning activities, and brood defense) negatively affects growth rate and, ultimately, maximum body size. To assess how social factors influence energy allocation, we manipulated population size structure of male bluegills L. macrochirus in experimental ponds and evaluated individual reproductive behavior and testes development. We predicted that smaller parental males would invest less in reproduction in the presence of larger parental males than they would in their absence. Observations were consistent with this prediction; smaller parental males had smaller testes and nested less frequently in the presence of larger males than in their absence. Furthermore, when males of both size-groups occupied nests, larger males were more successful. Size-selective angling that removes larger males may, therefore, negatively affect the size structure of Lepomis populations by creating conditions under which smaller, and often younger fish, mature sexually and reproduce. Under those conditions, growth rates would slow at younger ages, and the maximum size attained by these fish would be reduced.

Ewest: I don't think it is the same one. It really not matter much as I think most of the research that has been done documents the delay in maturity rather well, but does not have any proof for the reason. As I recall the study I referred to was conducted in waters around Charleston, IL, Coles County.

Bing

I think that the reason is intuitive.

You can equate a bluegills big eartab and bright colors to a whitetail deer's rack. It's a demonstration of genetic fitness. It tells the female "Hey, look at me, I've got resources to spare. My genes are so good, and I'm so good at foraging that I can commit some of my extra energy into a pretty display. Mate with me and you'll have babies that have the same abundance of resources, and your genes will be carried on forever".

A smaller male bluegill doesn't have what it takes yet to make a nice display, or be a good fighter for nest space. Even if he finds a nice nest, the female probably won't choose him anyway because of the way he looks. Consequently he's going to take a chance, by not reproducing this year, and spend his time foraging heavily so he can have a better chance to pass on his genes next year.

Interestingly, interviews of human females lead one to believe that instead of eartabs and racks, women look at what car we drive, and what shoes we wear.

Whether its ear tabs , racks or possessions its all the same. Females are looking for providers and protectors for themselves and their offspring. Did I say that out loud?

Why am I picturing a big bluegill sitting at the bar with drink in hand while the whimpy bluegill are playing pool?

Here's what a CSBG looks like at 54 weeks. He's been in a lined pond and he's obviously matured a little bit. A little over 7 inches.

Here's another one.

Same fish (year class) from last fall.

I caught a nice 7 1/2" male BG last night that looked a whole lot like that first CSBG out of the string pictured above, Bruce. He might be a tad older than 54 weeks - as I was putting him back in the pond, he mentioned he'd just applied for Social Security.

I would sure like to see what would happen if those 2 male CSBG were put in a pond with about 8 adult female BG . No other fish just those. What do you think ?

I'm already planning on taking the twenty best CSBG from this year class and placing them in a pond next April with thirty of the best female CSBG from the previous generation. Would you like to be there when I do it?

Bruce,

Can't wait to see how big the ones I got from you are this fall. If the way they eat is any indication...

And the fact that they won't or can't reproduce in the cage could give me an advantage over the ones in your pond that are building nests.

I'm really excited about producing my own bluegill and yellow perch from here on out with selective breeding. And of course not having to buy anymore fish is a definite plus!

I think the bottom one would color up in a hurry.

CLICK! The relay finally connects in Theo's brain.

Big male BG = big earflaps = great big stay the heck out of my nest symbol!

(With RES, large & vibrantly colored red ear margins - that, I've seen myself.)

Hi.

My name is E-24.

My master had high hopes for me. I'm really tall. I eat like crazy. But now my owner has decided to take me out of the program. My owner found me guarding a nest. I'm only 54 weeks old and I should probably be out playing with my friends.



I look like a really nice fish from up close, but my owner doesn't like the way I matured really quick. He also hates the way I'm proportioned. I'm like that 7 foot tall NBA player who can't jump. Here's my bigger picture and you can probably see why I'm being retired.



Hi.

My name is E-26.

My owner found me out swimming in the middle of the pond. All I really want to do is eat. I don't really care about girls yet.

My owner thinks I have nice, normal bluegill proportions.

I'm destined for a life of luxury, and will eventually be put with some big, fat pretty girls, but only when I'm ready. Probably next year.

He also hates the way I'm proportioned. I'm like that 7 foot tall NBA player who can't jump. Here's my bigger picture and you can probably see why I'm being retired.

Bruce - please elaborate.....
Beautiful CSBG...

He's so tall, yet there's something disproportional about him that's not just from great nutrition. I'm not sure I'd call him deformed, but close to it.

Is he really that short (head to tail), or is he just incredibly tall (top to bottom)?

Let us know if he tastes funny.

Bruce, most of our CNBG are “round”…
I thought this was a good trait...



You would prefer ths one - right? :rolleyes:

Yours look like they're round because they're incredibly healthy, and it seems to be a coppernose trait.

This fish of mine I think was round because part of him was maturing and another part wasn't. He just looked different in a way I didn't like. He's got his own pond now, with some other rejects, so we'll see how he looks next year, and the year after that. Maybe he could apply for reinstatement.

Can I borrow this "stud" for our Arkansas CNBG pool pond?
I'll pick up and return...

Bruce,

Different fin strokes for different folks but I know taxidermists that would have an orgasm over E-24 and pay big bucks for a fish proportioned that way if he got to at least a pound. I sure wouldn't pitch him. I'd just put him in an alternative therapy pond for sex addicts. (All male monastery .)


Although early maturation is considered a negative, I'm not so sure these fish are doomed to be small fish albeit they my not get as big as the fish that don't mature early. My yellow perch females produce eggs at only 1 year of age, but yet they end up becoming quite large. But then again maybe the dynamics of yellow perch are different then bluegill.

E-26 already outweighs E-24 by about a third. He's a machine.

I think they'll both get to a pound for sure unless I really do somtin toopid.


....and yes, E-24 went into the monestary. We also call it The Pen.

Bruce given the nature of your program of genetic selection I think the following from the now deceased Jonnie Cochran would be applicable :

If you don't like the trait
Then they should be bait ,

It you don't like the look
Then you must give em the hook

If they don't seem to fit
Then you must not acquit , cause they not legit.

I like it!

Is that country, or rap?

bruce, my reaction is not very scientific, nor do i have any qualifications as such, however.........he(E-24)just reminds me of a short guy with a big ol belly.....he (E-24) looks not only wildly successful at the kitchen table, but he likely plugs a 12 pack of regular MD a night and plays video games all day. his problem is that he's packin a 5' frame instead of a 6' frame.

edited post....i forgot to mention.....incredible pic ewest...

george, yer fish give me nightmares. somebody call Ripley.

Anybody remember what thread I posted the Aquavue bluegill video on? I can't find the dang thing!

The bluegill we've been discussing are now age-1 (67 weeks) and fully capable of reproduction. I can also identify with virtual certainly male vs. female characteristics. These fish have pulled off a monumental spawn in a lined pond. Go figure.

I caught, by angling, 30 of the 100 that were put in the lined pond and put them in a larger 450 gallon tank. I hope to eventually return at least 80 of the fish indoors to fatten up over the winter.

I'll get some good pictures of the fish if any one is interested. I weighed and measured eight of the fish and found the following averages:

202 mm was the average length

250 g. was the average weight

The average Wr is 137

I thought this was really good growth for this point in their development.

The largest fish was 214 mm and weighed 316 g. This yielded a Wr of 140.

The fish with the highest Wr was 190 mm and 247 g for a Wr of 162. This is the highest Wr I've ever seen.

The lightest fish I caught weighed 170 g.

Bruce - Great results - thanks for the update. I'm close to checking on the growth of your Condello BG that have been growing in a cage all summer. I'll post results when I transfer them to a holding cage for winter.

40 lbs of BG in a 450 gal tank. With some growth that will be a full tank by spring. Keep that filter system/water exchange working.

Actually, last winter these same fish were jammed into a 150 gallon tank and weighed a total of 16 pounds so my ratio is a little better.

Bruce,

Like I said in an email response to you I think you are just scratching the surface on what bluegills can do with selective breeding and domestication on artifical feed. Considering no one else that I know of is selectively breeding bluegills, and considering the chickens we had when I was a kid that grew so fast their legs couldn't support their weight... well you get my drift. And what's cool is we don't have to worry about those gills that are really heavy not being able to walk.

I predict a 1 lb. bluegills in a year one of these days will not be unusual.

Bruce, can you give those relative weights in English units instead of metric?

I'm on board with you on that Cecil. I've been frustrated for years with only voodoo hybridizing to enhance BG size and growth rate.

Lepomis was custom made for rapid selective breeding. Aside from the fruit fly and nematodes, I can't think of a better subject. They reproduce in a year, lay 1000's of eggs, and eat like pigs. I bet average size and growth rate could be increased tremendously in only 10-15 generations, with good reliability. All you need is a half dozen ponds and a lot of determination. I'm a little short on ponds.

Wr 137 would be the equivalent of 71 PRU's or Portuguese relativity units.

Much clearer, thank you.

Here's a handy website for measurement conversions:

http://web.telia.com/~u54504162/javascript/convert/

I suggest a new sizing system for all CSBG. I think this is warranted as by now they are no doubt a new strain ( read genetically transformed) . Big , Giant , Hog , Plate Sized , and Gargantuan. Notice no small , med and large.

Bruce,

Have you been adding to the BG gene pool as well or just selecting and breeding the BG genes you have?

I was going to plant some broodstock perch in a pond in March or April and then Condello's best growers and some of my best growers in the same pond because I only have one pond for producing both at this time. Trouble is by the time the bluegill fry hatch, the perch will be big enough to engulf them. it could also make it harder to feed train the perch if there are plenty of bluegill fry to eat.

I think I may hold off on the perch spawning one year and hopefully get one more pond in to produce them. I'd hate to seine the pond in the fall and end up with hardly any bluegills!

Thoughts?

In summer of 2000, 1.25 acre pond “Big Oliver” was renovated. It was stocked in fall of 2000 with 60 bluegill, 30 males and 30 females. These were the 60 fish with the best body condition from pre-renovation that were saved in Coulee pond which is .1 acre and had been provided with pellets all of summer 2000 during Big Oliver’s renovation. Their original source before the renovation was a stocking of bluegill made by previous owner of pond.

It was my assumption that the fish in the best body condition (The ones put in Big O in fall of 2000) were fish that had learned to utilize pellets. They had been sequestered in Coulee for four months, and quite a few of the fish were in poor condition, but at least 60 were beautiful, with Wr’s of over 110.

It was also assumed that the fish that were introduced into Big Oliver in the fall of 2000 did not pull off a successful spawn that year because the stocking was made in late September and no beds were observed for the rest of that year. Secchi readings were 3 meters because the pond had been refilled with well water.

This leads to the following assumption that YOY’s sampled in late July of 2001, which were 1-2 inches long were progeny of these fish. There were no other adult fish of any species in the pond except hybrid striped bass, so these fish were determined to be F-2’s

These fish were left on three time daily feedings for the remainder of 2001.

In June of 2002 Big Oliver was seined and the seine haul brought up 1,750 fish, of which the largest and most robust 155 fish were selected which averaged 6 inches and ranged from 5.5 to 6.25 inches. These fish were moved to Hoover Pond which had been left dry since September of 2001, so it had no other fish present. Shortly thereafter there was a disastrous die-off of all fish in Big Oliver. Big Oliver was drained and rotenone was applied in July/August of 2002.

In September of 2002 60 fish of which 30 were male and 30 were female were removed from Hoover and placed back in Big Oliver. These 60 fish were selected from 130 remaining fish of the 155 stocked in June. It was assumed that the Wr’s of 120 were the result of good feed training. All fish with Wr’s below 120 were left in Hoover Pond. The fish that were placed in Big Oliver were 6.5 to 7.75 inches long.

Young of the Year fish were observed in Big Oliver in November of 2002. It was assumed this was evidence of a fall spawn, since the fish were first placed in September into a pond that had been drained and rotenone applied. These fish were 1-2 inches and were considered to be F-3’s.

In July of 2004 40 fish were selected using angling with a pellet imitating fly. These were obviously healthy, feed trained fish with Wr’s between 115 and 135. The average length was 8 inches and the range was 7.5 inches to 8.75 inches. Another twenty fish were sampled and selected from a pellet fed population, also using pellet imitations to angle fish. These fish were 10 males and 10 females ranging from 8-10.5 inches with Wr’s of 120-125. These 60 fish were placed in Chalk Pond which was a newly constructed pond created just as a reproduction pond for bluegill. In August, these 60 fish were observed guarding nests, and shortly thereafter fry were seen swimming nearby.

In November of 2004, 930 of these fingerlings were moved to FirestoneII pond. These fish averaged just under two inches, with some specimens already nearing 3 inches. These fish were henceforth known as F-4’s. At this point all remaining fish were removed from Chalk Pond and sold.

In July of 2005 Firestone II pond was sampled, revealing fish that were as big as 5.75 inches, with significant numbers of fish over 4 inches. Wr’s ranged from 80-150. The fish with smaller Wr values were as small as two inches still at this time, while the fish with higher Wr values were the longer more robust fish. This pond showed significant pellet eating events throughout the summer of 2005.

On June 15 of 2006, 30 male bluegill and 30 female bluegill were taken from Firestone II pond and placed in Chalk Pond. Males were observed nesting on July 1 of 2006, and fry, and then fingerlings were observed throughout the course of August and early September.

Mid-October 2006, ran a seine and sorted through approximately 3,000 YOY’s and collected the 300 best fish. They ranged from 3-4.5 inches. Other fish seined were as small as 1 inch. The 300 best fish were moved to a tank in the Morton building and fed high protein pellets and krill throughout the winter. These fish were considered F-5’s.

May 2007, approximately 200 F-5’s were given to Cecil Baird and Bill Cody to bring to Indiana and Ohio. Another 104 bluegill were transferred to Firestone I pond. At this time the fish moved to the lined pond were between 5 and 6.25 inches. The ones given to Baird and Cody ranged from 4-5 inches.

June 2007 Baird reports enthusiastic feedings.

July 2007 I sampled a few of the F-5’s in the lined pond and found fish to be in robust condition with Wr’s in the range of 120-140, and lengths of 6-8 inches. 24 males were transferred to Hoover Pond so as to minimize risk of losing all fish to an oxygen event. Fish are still feeding well, and are observed creating nests in small corner of pond that has some silt.

YOY bluegill are observed in July of 2007 in the lined pond, but these fish will likely be discarded or sold due to the fact that they are progeny of bluegill males and females that are rapidly sexually maturing. These fish will not get the designation of F-6’s.

Bruce,

I don't know Bruce... They're getting so big I'm not sure they should be stocked in family ponds. What happens when the kids get too close to the bank.

One of the things that I really like about these forums is the diversity of approaches we have to pond management. Read Bruce's post. Then read it a second time.

Now that you've done that I'll tell you my approach to BG management.

Purchase some BG from supplier.

Put them into the pond. I didn't fling them frisbee style into the pond like George did I just floated them in bags for a few minutes then turned them loose.

Take a step back away from the pond and see if the live or die.

End of story.

Course I'll never raise award winning BG and I really like reading about how Bruce manages his ponds. My management style kinda borders on negligence when compared to Bruce. Makes me feel sad for my BG, poor little fellers.

My absolutely favorite thing about all of this is that if you take care of your water quality, your approach can work just as good as mine. Nothing negligent about it. Keep your water pretty, and follow just really simple harvest strategies and your bluegill can get just as big as mine. There are two reasons why I do what I do.

1. I'm neurotic.

2. By pushing the envelope, I think that some little nuggets of information may emerge that benefit others taking a more practical approach. In the end, I'll manage my ponds just like you.

Jeff, even a better idea...."Purchase some BG from supplier" - that will deliver your fish, add pond water to his oxygenated tank to acclimate them, and "fling" the TILAPIA over the thick FA so as not to kill standed fish.

It all depends....

I was still a little sensitive about adding fish to my pond after the horrific Gambusia incident. So I gently floated them in their plastic bags, slowly opened the bag to allow them to swim out, and sang Kumbaya as they swam away. I figured one tragic stocking event was all I could handle in a years time.

George and others, I got a question for those of you that have used a fish supplier. Around DIED and I the suppliers charge an arm and a leg to deliver fish. So both DIED and I picked up our fish from the supplier. The only supplier that I found that would deliver wanted something like $300 to deliver. How does this work in other parts of the country. Does it depend upon how much you order? Do they charge for delivery and if so how much? Just curious.

I've seen suppliers charge a dollar a mile and some two dollars a mile. I know two suppliers that don't charge for delivery if you buy a minimum quantity.

I pick up small orders from my supplier same as you and D.I.E.D.
Delivery costs are based on minimum fish order and current $1.50/mile delivery charge.

My regular supplier has free delivery for orders over $150. Their prices are up and down wrt other fish suppliers; higher on some things and lower on others.

Here's the latest photo of one of the bluegill we've been tracking since last fall.



8 inches, 10 ounces, 67 weeks old.

Now, same year-class, last winter.

1 year to a half-pound - that's what aquaculture needs for commercial BG fillet production, my man.

The width to length ratio is particularly impressive...
Is this a "selection" critera?
Good job....!

And Bruce is the only one selectively breeding them that I know of! Seems to me if Bruce can eventually do this consistently he will have a big market. Most growers are pooh poohing the bluegills because they don't grow fast enough. But I've seen the fillets selling for $16.00 per pound!

I will be doing some selective breeding of my own here thanks to Bruce.

Here's a really good related thread to CSBG.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99912#Post99912

Bruce are you sure got posted the right link? It does have stuff about your BG's but it is the "What To Do" topic that has only current posts for the last couple of days.

Yes, that entire "Question about raising bluegills" thread is about using selection principles to get bigger bluegill. So Cecil's new thread dovetails in nicely.

Here's another question about selectively raising bluegills.

What happens if you have a tank full of 8-9 inch CSBG, then you feed them worms and softened pellets and krill for a solid hour until they won't eat anymore, then you decide for some crazy reason to throw a 2.5 inch CSBG into the tank?

I think I'd have to have video for you to believe it. I've never seen such vicious, uncivilized behavior in my life!

I have seen it many times in the aquarium. The big fish will attack the small one , biting and ramming it until it is dead. Indeed vicious. Sometimes it takes a few minuets others several days.

Bruce - That is the social dominance the larger BG impose on the smaller BG. Now you can better understand how the larger bull males keep smaller males from maturing early.

I see what you guys mean.

I mean it was really, really alarming. Fish that had been passively sipping tiny krill like they were bored turned into a pack of wolves the instant the littler bluegill went in. Seriously, it was less than 1/2 second when a couple of bigger ones shot at him. It was almost too fast to see.

Bruce,

Along with hierachy behavior which Bill mentions, I know this doesn't sound very profound but could you be breeding for agressiveness along with the fast growth as they may go hand in hand? I'm telling you I've never seen bluegill as aggressive as the ones I got from you. No complaints whatsoever but it floored me!

This spring I will be grouping bluegills within one inch of each other in separate cages. I.e. 5 to 5.9 one cage. 6.0 to 6.9 another etc. Since they are aggressive this should keep growth more uniform.

On another note, after doing a lot of research on using three lines of rotating breeding stock every generation -- of which one will be yours -- it has occured to me I may have to manually mix eggs and milt in a petri dish, put that into an aquarium and then plant the fry into the the pond If am really serious about reducing inbreeding while selectively breeding. The reason being is in a pond setting the rotational line mating scheme obviously doesn't work as perfectly as it does on paper. Each male won't necessarily cross with the line it's supposed to.

This is one of my faults. When I do something I go gung ho and get really OCD about it.

I guess it would figure that when I chose my original brood stock they were fish that were outgrowing other fish. Along with feed conversion ratios, etc, it seems very plausible that we're selecting for agression as well. I intend on getting some video of this activity this winter sometime. The bluegill weren't content on trying to eat the little guy. They wanted to shake him silly.

They were not trying to eat him (but might do so) but were sending a dominance warning for all to see. If you can't run with the big dogs don't get off the porch or in this case in the tub. Often they will leave the mangled , twitching ,near dead body around for days which I can only conclude is a warning for others.

That's exactly what it looked like, but they did eat him as well.

Makes me wonder how that behavior could be used to advantage. Maybe it could be used to make lazy BG bite, or something else I can't even imagine ATM. It could possibly even trigger natural hormones, boost growth or hasten maturity.

It definitely makes them feed more aggressively!

Oh come on guys. Are you actually trying to suggest that through his genetic manipulation that Dr. Frankenbruce has created some highly aggressive strain of BG.

I don't think that there is any empirical evidence to support that theory.

On the other hand....
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Now that's funny Jeff!

Jeff you're not going to believe this but I would swear on a bible it's true. I noticed the teeth were distinctly more developed on two of Bruce's bluegills than my local bluegills when I received them for mouunting. Could it be a regional naturally selected adaptation, and go hand in hand with them potentially be more carnivorous?

Bruce is sending me a couple more soon. I will get close up pics of the teeth and get close ups of teeth on some local gills for comparison.

That's really funny.

I'm going to print out a copy of that and place it over the tank so my bluegill have something to aspire to.

Well I suppose that tactic is better than suspending them over a chopping board.

Actually all joking aside I would imagine that there would be some validity to the theory that your BG would ultimately become more aggressive. If you are hand selecting the largest BG then I would think that they would also be the most dominant BG and therefore possibly more aggressive??? Sounds possible to me. I have send an email to Myth Busters for some independent verification.

Oh and while I have your attention Bruce, I just read the article in Pond Boss (and now have to wait in a nervous state of suspense for two darn months to find out what happened) anyhoo I had no idea that the situation you faced was so serious and involved so many experts. All I can say is WOW.

I'm also looking forward to seeing how the story ends.

Here's the link to Cecil's link to the sunfish linked link.

http://www.ncrac.org/NR/rdonlyres/7BBF17EA-1CD1-411D-9F0B-723EABEF0E3E/49161/Sunfish_Culture.pdf

I can only hope that Bruce, having successfully created his first mystery, doesn't end up like that Angela Lansbury character. It was like a different one of her friends was winding up dead every week there for a while.

Which begs the question...

How many links could a link linker link if a link linker could link links?

About 5 per post is enough provided the linker has done the research.

Update on CSBG

I've been raising bluegill in a "Cecil Envy" flow-through tank that holds 450 gallons of water.

These fish are F-5's that are age-1 and 76 weeks old. Soon they will have a birthday and will be age-2's.

The average length is 203 mm.

The average weight is 255 grams.

This yields a Wr of 134.

I weighed and measured 10 of the 90 fish in the tank.

These fish were harvested from a lined pond in mid-October and took about 5 weeks of retraining to return to pelleted feed.

The sequence was as follows..

1. Introduction of night crawler pieces.
2. Introduction of krill shrimp.
3. Introduction of "Bill Cody" style softened pellets
4. Introduction of floating pellets.

The Wr's temporarily settled back into the 120's during the feed training exercise.

I was moderately surprised that these fish took a while to retrain. I figured that since they were in indoor tanks last winter that they would quickly figure out the floating pellet concept. As it turns out they were pretty skittish for a few weeks while they got used to their new surroundings.

I had a similar experience with smallmouth bass that I planted into a cage. They were supposedly feed trained but they acted like they had no idea what a pellet was when I put them into a floating cage. I was told many times when a fish gets into a different evironment this can happen. However that was a different supplier than the one I have now (Laggis Fish Farms Gobles, Michigan) For some reason I have no problems with his fish.

Conversely I was reading a study done on yellow perch but can't remember where I read it. Not sure if it was in one of my journals, back issue of Aquaculture or on the Internet. Anyway, they took wild yellow perch and starved them for I believe it was 8 days before they started feeding them. They got them to all feed on the pellets which surprised me. Would holding back feed for a while possibly make a difference?

That makes really good sense. I never gave them more than 48 hours without giving in and feeding them some krill. I shoulda used some "tough love".

Bruce,

Forgive me if you've already covered this but any thoughts of warming your water this winter to increase the growth rate?

I would love to, but I've had my Uncle, who is an electrical engineer crunch the numbers for me, and it seems that in a flow-through system that heating becomes really inefficient. The water just doesn't stay in the tank long enough to increase the temperature very much. Currently the water is replaced in the tank about four hours. This means that most of my energy goes to heating the discharge water. If I turned down the nozzles to .25 gpm instead of 2 gpm I would have a better ability to heat the water but the water quality would start to suffer. It's a Catch-22. Warm water or good water. I've got my choice. When I move to the farm it will be easier to do because I'll be able to visually monitor the water much more closely and I'll get a little gutsier.

Makes sense Bruce. I'm sure the RAS guys would also be someone to talk on how to do it most efficiently if you did do it. I have a PHD friend that raises hybrid striped bass indoors I could pass this by with and see what he has to say if you're interested. I believe he puts his water in a large tank first and allows the ambient temps of the building to do some of the warming. And of course he reuses the water. Seems like if you could insulate and isolate the area of the building and reuse your water it would become an easier goal.

2 GPM for 24 hours is 2880 gallons a day, raised 20 degrees in temperature - that's equivalent to heating the water for maybe 50 daughter fill-the-tub, have-your-Dad-scream-about hot-water-use bubble baths every day. Just so your girls know what the fish would be getting away with.

You can put the heating system on a timer (like the sun) and vary the temps (day to night) a few degrees and it would be less costly and a more natural (diel pattern). You can match the heating to the light system (heating and light on at the same time) and be even more natural. Even a few degrees will help growth.

Bruce, have you given thought to better insulating the tank(s) in the Winter if you heat? You could 1) put 2"-3" of closed-cell foam underneath the tank to insulate it from the floor, 2) wrap an insulation blanket around the outside of the tank to cover the sides, and 3) put a cover (perhaps closed cell foam again) over the top of the tank. Raising the "R" value of the tank itself would make any water heating effort (even if it's only retaining the ambient temperature of the well water) more effective, and IMHO be cheaper/easier than trying to do the tent thing like you've used before.

Good questions. I could probably insulate the sides and top, but it would be quite a chore this year to insulate the bottom of the tank. I'm not sure where I'd put the fish in the interim.

What would be the best insulating material that would still let light into the tank? I've convinced myself that the light going through the clear sides of the tank is beneficial to the fish.

Theo,

Actually I was thinking of both and something more substantial than the tent thing.

Clear bubble wrap?

I remember this from one of my trout farming texts. Thought it was kind of interesting. Of course I'm not sure how effective it would be in really cold temps with no sun. And how practical it would be in your situation.

If I keep fish inside in the future as you are Bruce, I have thought about using black hose tht faces the sun behind insulated glass like a south facing greenhouse. If one could get the water warmer than you need it you wouldn't have to heat so much water. You could mix it into cooler well water while gravity aerating (dropping it) into a distribution tank before running it into you tanks -- to prevent gas bubble disease.

Truthfully it seems to me a small RAS system like the one you can build yourself in the book Small Scale Aquaculture would be the most practical if you could insulate you small room and the tanks. That way you would only have to heat 90 percent of your water one time.

Here's a CSBG looking for a snack.

CSBG being weighed...



CSBG showing his girlish figure.

Bruce, is the fat devil 2007 YOY???

If I read correctly, (he's) 8+ inches and 9+ ounces (for those of us who don't measure in Portuguese).

P.S. Shouldn't you have a meter stick?

Who (or what) is that thing in the background? It looks like your decoy "person," although why you would have him constantly staring into the RAS is beyond me.

I do know that you like to taunt your fish; this may explain things.

I wish!!

Nah, that's my 2006 fish, from a July spawn.

Your interpretations of the measurements is correct. That fish is about average for the broodstock I'll be using next spring and summer.

That's MJ. He's always assisting me in some way or another. Right now his job is to desensitize my fish to human presence so that I can hand feed them more effectively. He still scares me every time I see him.

Maybe you ought to park MJ next to your bed for a while and desensitize yourself first.

Hey, Bruce, I've been meaning to ask something. Do you use any aeration source in your tanks besides the constant water spray?

Hey, Bruce, I've been meaning to ask something. Do you use any aeration source in your tanks besides the constant water spray?

Yes, I have an aerator that supplies all three tanks being currently used. It has a manifold that distributes the air to each tank.

Bruce,

Here's where the Condello bluegills I got from you are right now. When I get near the cage I hear, "Take us back to Bruce! Man I miss that building. Bruce sold us down the river! It's too cold out here!" Oh and they are saying naughty words about you that can't be posted here Bruce.



I had to chop the cage out of the ice. The heavy snow pushed it down and it froze just below the water line. Note the holes in the background. I made several holes around this small 1/10th acre pond to let light in.

HEY CECIL - CODY SAYS: That's what you get when you float your cages so low in the water.

HEY CODY -- CECIL SAYS: You're the one that told me to sink them farther down for the winter!

Here's my perch cage which I still have to chop out. This picture shows what the Condello cage looked like before chopping. You can't hardly tell there's a cage there!

Here's a couple of pictures with a bluegill that is now age-2, or about 81 weeks old.

210 mm and 278 g equates to a Wr of about 131. This fish is slightly bigger than most, but about 32 g smaller than the biggest fish.

nice fish bruce..based on the first pic you obviously measure them before you fillet them?

i'll be curious to see if my "2" year olds get anywheres near that big although my control on their exact age is not so good.

Since not all of us speak metric I decided to take it upon my self to translate Bruce's post to english and add some clarification:

Here's a couple of pictures with a bluegill that is now age-2, or about 81 weeks old [that I raised at the Condello Institute for the Creation of Ludicrously Proportioned Blue Gills, muhaaa, muhaaaaa, muhaaaaaaaaaa].

8.26 inclues and 9.80 ounces equates to a Wr of about 131. This fish is slightly bigger than most, but about 1.128 ounces smaller than the biggest fish [and much bigger than anything you'll EVER raise, muhaaa, muhaaaaaa, muhaaaaaaa].

I assume the weight includes the tray and and the zip lock bag.

NO WAY, DUDE!

Dwight you forgot the lead shot the BG was force fed and the finger on the scale. There is a reason you can't see the upper right edge of the scale !! -

On behalf of English System unit users everywhere (except England, they're Metrified), thanks, JHAP.

Sometimes I wonder how Bruce finds enough metric teeth on Lincoln, Nebraska to keep his dental practice going. Then I remember he has patients shipped in from all over the world.

Being a part time Dentist helps with the low numbers of metric teeth.

I caught my very first 1.5# BG this afternoon - 11+ inches .
Also 1.25# 10+ incher.
Seems width and thickness criteria important as length with larger BG.
I'll post pictures when I get home tomorrow...

Tore up CNBG and HSB in 44,9 drgree near surface water temps.

"METRIC SYSTEM! That's the devils' business. My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it." Abe Simpson

In the episode of The Simpsons entitled ‘A Star Is Burns’, Grampa Simpson uttered: “My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!” That translates into 504 U.S. gallons per mile, or about 1.2 litres per metre! In units more normal for this purpose, it is 0.00198 miles per US gallon (or about 10.48 feet per gallon) or 118,500 L/100 km. (from Wikipedia)

Stop, Please make it STOP. No more numbers, my head hurts enough from tax season already!

Back to topic “about raising bluegills” ...
Here’s picture of MPB TexArkFla Strain CNBG…. 1.5 pounds...

OK, George. You're startin' to bug me now! Your fish are starting to enter my realm!

I order you to cease and desist your efforts to grow huge bluegill. I am placing a 7.5 inch limit on any future bluegill that your pond produces.

Your pond will be intesely monitored for any infractions. If you are found to be in violation you will be forced to allow me to fish the pond--unsupervised for two days--to remove any other massive specimens.

Sincerely,

Dr. Bruce Condello
Licensed aquaculturist

i resemble that remark!

as i mentioned somewheres else......george......yer fish give me nightmares.

do you think you catch more males than females? just curious.

George very nice CNBG. One problem - I think those big HSB bit a chunk out of the middle of his tail. -

Dave, I am not aware of more males than females but I do pay more attention to the big males.

Dang George, very nice fish!

Did you catch that on a fly fishing rig?

Opps, just saw your post in the other thread.

All I know is they must have big teeth as by the picture George is afraid to lip them. He has to use a gripping vise to do that.

You do remember Cecil; I’m the guy who not too long ago considered BG as “bait”. Anyway that’s what the fish truck driver from Arkansas told me...
In addition to the Arkansas strain BG, Texas BG from a neighbor’s pond were stocked in our brand new pond, and then for some good reason or another, pure Florida CNBG were added to this genetic mix.

History will record that you, Condello and Cody changed me into a BG freak that wont touch his fish without a sterile “gripper”, or without wetting hands when handling fish to prevent strange fungus growths you guys keep telling me about …

I have delusions of weighing, measuring and prying into their innermost private sexual habits.
Please help me – I need counseling...

We can't help you George. We have the same problem and got you into the addiction remember?

Fish nuts - you bet - all of us are in this together with no way out!! - -

Hey George, There are people in Texas that say bluegills (aka perch) do not get or grow very big in Texas or some of the southern areas. Well I guess you are well on your way to proving them way wrong. Good job George.

So when they say everything grows big in Texas they are usually fibbing?

Cody comment - As usual, "It all depends". No, in George's case, he really does grow'em big in Texas. Where there is a will, there is a way and George discovered the way to do it. (Maybe our (Cody, Condello & Baird) 3 articles about growing male bgill in PBoss Mag-2006 helped him along the way.)

I haven't taken an "average" weight lately of my fish because I've been trying to minimize handling.

The most interesting events of the last several weeks...

I had one bluegill die. This is the first indoor mortality in the last two winters. He was a really nice one. When I removed him from the tank one morning I decided to do an autopsy. When I opened him up I discovered that he had a mass of pellets (Aquamax 600) stuck in his throat. His belly was full of pellet matter, so I'm assuming that he choked to death doing what he loved--eating.

Bill and Cecil had warned me that this might happen, so I took heed and have fed smaller pellets the rest of the winter.

On a good note, I weighed the biggest bluegill in the tank and he was a mind-boggling 350 grams. At 88 weeks that's pretty solid for a Nebraska bluegill. He was also just short of 9 inches at 225 mm.

That's a Wr of 131. I think the mean Wr is maybe in the low 120's because it's harder to maintain incredible body condition in the winter with big fish. They just require SO MUCH more food, and I'm only out there two or three times each week. I'm afraid to set the feeder settings too high because if the water quality crashes all that extra food would fry my fish. So basically I settle for excellent body condition instead of "extra excellent".

Regardless, it's working out really well.

Bruce - You are wise to minimize the handling of the indoor CSBG. As you know, handling is a stress to fish and when growing them indoors one should try to keep all unnecessary stressors to a minimum. Being held indoors and in cool to cold water are tso continual stress for them and for them to stay the healthiest they will not benefit from additional stress.

Regarding the single mortality. I do not think a fish will eat itself to death. I think the combination of eating larger dry pellets to the point of fullness and then the swelling of compacted dry pellets was too much for this fish. Evidently he could not expell the pellet plug from his throat and it resulted in death. Too bad. With his appetite he could have been destined for 13".

You have created a eating disorder in BG. -

Blueobesity ! ! !

This year.

Bruce, you are wearing out my conversions chart...
Am I correct in conversion of 350 Grams = 0.771617918 pounds?
Good job.

sounds good to me george, assuming 28 grams = 1 oz....i get 0.78 lbs..

i havent been able to check my fish since early december....for the first time in my little pond mgmt career, i cant buy a strike until the water warms up...all my BG, GSF, RES are still hunkered down somewhere and not feeding.

Bruce,

Wow that some hog fish!

Did you take a look at his liver by any chance? (But if the fish was dead for some time before you showed up this wouldn't work) If so, was it pale? Also did he have a good amount of fat reserves in his body? My concern is overfeeding in cool water could cause liver problems. That is, they could become functional diabetics according to Dr. Paul Brown a fish nutrition biologist of Purdue. These kinds of fish will grow fast, look very robust, but may not handle stress as well as a fish that does not have this condition.

I was told by Mike Robinson of Keystone Hatcheries the same thing, that is, to stop feeding bass and bluegills below 50 F. as the fish will cotinue to eat out of reflex, but they have a hard time metabolizing the food.

I still say you could be selectivly breeding for aggressive hard feeding fish which in itself is not bad, but they could be more prone to overeating in cold water.

Just my thoughts and passing on what I have heard from these two gentlemen. Of course I could be overstating it.

If anyone would like to contact Dr. Paul Brown of Purdue I have his email. In fact maybe Bob Lusk would as the next issue is concentrating on feed issues?

I did look at his liver and it was slightly light colored, but I'm not knowledgable enough to make and assumptions based on what I saw.

The fish had an insane amount of fat reserves.

My water never drops below 50 degrees in the winter, so I'm probably OK with the heavy duty feeding program.

I was unable to identify any parasite in the fish.

I don't think we'll ever know if we're selecting for rapid growth or agressiveness. Common sense would dictact that it's probably some combination of each. It would take a controlled study of some kind to tell--probably where you would have two identical tanks, some standard BG and some CSBG and feed them exactly the same and see what happens. All I really know is that it is accomplishing my goal, which is getting to 3/4 pound really fast! Since I've seen several fish from the F-2's at over 1.5 pounds I think that you can assume that the long term fitness is probably OK.

I think you're exactly right in your comments regarding health problems with fish that eat exclusively pellets, but because my fish were released into a sizable pond last summer, and I feed fatheads and krill all winter that over 50% of my total BG calorie intake comes from natural sources. I think this will be ultimately helpful.

An increase in lipids from fish oil pre winter will help avoid some of the problems associated with artificial feeding of predatory fish. Feeding them fish like FH or small shad , BBH or alewife with high protein and fish oil lipids content is an excellent way to keep winter feeding problems at bay.

Not so sure that the alewife is so good (at least not exclusively) Fish of that family Alwifes, Gizzard Shad, Threadfine Shad, have a natural thiamine inhibitor and can cause fish to have problems due to a lack of thiamine in their diet. We've seen this in Great Lakes fish thta feed exclusively on alwifes. Early mortalities for one thing.

I don't think any one source of food is good exclusively. My comment was as a supplement , especially pre winter , for pellet feeding fish. I will try to locate the physiological explanation of the problem with cold water pond predator fish with low or the wrong type of lipid source.

I couldn't help myself..

I just had to photograph one of the better bluegill that's being raised indoors this winter.

This particular fish will be a big player in the reproduction phase this spring and summer. He's certainly not the heaviest, but he's the best overall body condition and desired traits that I've seen. There are others that are over an ounce bigger, but I like this guy.




I would love it if somebody can tug on Dr. Dave's sleeve so he can glance at this too.

What do you guys think? For the non-metric people, he's about 10.5 ounces, and at 8.25 inches that's pretty stout.

Wr is 140 I believe

Nice! But I can see the pale liver right through the skin.

Just kidding!

Well the pond with the Condello gills in a cage is ice free now. I removed three floaters, but the water is not clear enough to see to the bottom if there are any laying on the bottom. I'll have work on that later. Even if there are twice or three times that many that didn't make it, that's still not bad for 180 some fish.

In a cage in another pond where it's predominantly yellow perch I had two bluegill morts.

It may be the smaller holding ponds are not good for overwintering cage fish that are slightly less than four feet down in the water column. It may be since they are small ponds they cool down fast which is stressful. I had three ice ups and thaws this winter and between them there were high winds and temps in the teens before the ponds froze back up. May have super chilled the water. Max depth in the ponds is 7 to 9 feet depending on which pond.

Note the long, stocky body, small head, and purplish (non-breeding season) coloration. By design or accident, Bruce's BG are developing a certain characteristic "look".

(No, FMcB, not THAT kind of "look".)

Excellent specimen, Bruce. Going on 2 years old?

I like the body shape! Look at that steep head on the male bluegill, even at "only" 8.25 inches.

Dr. Bruce, I think the Wr is closer to 141.

Yes, almost 21 months old.

Love that lavender. He wont have any trouble getting the girls to donate to his nest.

Theo,

Did you mean the lavender is a nonbreeding color? If so I have seen it on breeding fish. Besides Bruce's beauties I've seen it on Lake St. Clair bluegills during breeding season. Now there's a big, big lake that has some incredible bluegill and yellow perch! Also known for musky!

I have lavender breeders. Color is an interesting trait. There are some very good posts here on the subject. NOTE THE COLOR CHANGE IN BRUCE'S CSBG IN THE SHORT TIME PERIOD OF THE 2 PICS. Like this color ?





Same fish - pics 5 seconds apart

Cecil:

I meant that CSBG tend to be lavender (even) when they are NOT in breeding coloration mode.

I see that color on some of my BG, but ONLY in breeding season and never so much of it. (Of course, I never see as much of one af my BG as you can see of Bruce's, since they're so freakishly large.)

O.K. that's what I thought you meant.

You know what I think? I think Bruce puts grape KoolAide in the water!

I've wondered a few times if when I choose each years "breeders" if I'm not subconsciously picking for some other characteristics. Like color, or body shape. I would think that by the time I get to twenty generations that my bluegill will........

Look exactly like redears.

I hope not. I prefer bluegills over redears. Oops sorry!

I'm no Bruce Condello, but I'm happy to report that our BG are doing well in their little pond. Despite overcrowded conditions, they are in surprisingly good body shape.

I apologize for not getting the full body in the picture. I'm still working on the whole "point and click" thing.




We caught another one that appears to have the typical yellow grubs. Do y'all think it could be anything else? We do have RES in that pond, but obviously not enough to prevent this sort of thing.

davatsa that is one round well conditiond fish. Where did it come from?

I'll answer for him...The "nasty" pond we discussed a month or so ago. We have taken 70-80 out and put in other ponds.
edit Must be spring, Pond Bossing at office in middle of the day...lol

Are they from Todd or another source ? There are a few of us not on spring break - kinda !

ewest,

"Spring Break" = one of the few thrills of still being a student.

On the other hand, I'm actually PAYING (good money, btw) to be tortured at school. That just doesn't make sense. At least those of you with real jobs are the ones GETTING PAID when you feel like you're being tortured.

To answer your question, about half the BG are from Todd Overton, while the other half are from Herrmann's Fish Farm (Robstown, Texas). We've chosen to mix our genetics with LMB and BG, so far with good results.

We did stock some CNBG and RES with the BG, I'm guessing at a ratio of 5:2:1 (BG, RES, CNBG). We have yet to see a CNBG.

I am not kidding you--that bluegill is an absolute PIGGIE! I'd be personally very proud of that fish.

Oink, Oink!

Early "helmet" formation on 23 month old CSBG...

Who is that on the other side of the pond ?

Wow nice bluegill there Davatsa!

Bruce,

I'm happy to say the Condello bluegills are doing fine in the ponds and feeding well in either pond they are in. Many of the males are right in there with the yellow perch feeding like maniacs on the sinking hydrated feed, while some seem to have set up shop closer to shore possibly in preparation for spawning. The females are in a 5 by 5 foot cage and seem to be looking out forelornly at the other fish through the 1 1/4 inch mesh.

I have about 7 of your females and 2 of mine along with 4 of your males and 4 of mine in the breeding pond with the yellow perch fry. Hopefully I will have my perch so conditioned on feed by then they will not be interested in eating too many of the bluegill offspring. I may get the smallies off to Bass Pro Shops and Cabelas in time to put some bluegill breeders in that pond just in case. That was the plan originally but plans change.

Man I pulled a bluegill out of the holding pond today that had to be shaped like a dinner plate and just as big. Wish I would have gotten a picture. I probably should have put him in the breeder pond, but I put him in the monastery along with the other only male only bluegills. I'd like to see him come up at feeding time as my water is still crystal clear in that pond.

I had a wholesale buyer for an extra bluegills, but my contact there no longer works there. (Former owner's daughter) The new owner says most of his customers are only interested in the hybrids. Riiiiiiight.. . Just the opposite of what his former employee said. Funny my phone used to ring off the hook with people looking for "regular" bluegills.

No problem. I'll market them myself as premium bluegills. I thought after I cross them with mine I'll call them the Condello B. strain. What do you think? Or maybe I should call them Nebraska Giants.

MJ

You can call them anything you want--just don't call them late for dinner.

That's good Bruce.

A marketing point - Condello B. strain sounds like a pathogen not a big fish. How about Condello Giants or Condello Behemoth Gills - CGs or CBGs has a nice ring.

I would leave "giants" out of the name. Too much baggage with that word regarding bluegills.

Good Idea!

I'd say the CSBG's are pretty close to spawning time.



Same fish--11 months old, by the way.

Point that thing at someone else while you squeeze it, Bruce.

Question: Early female BG maturity is not adverse to delayed male BG maturity?

I really wish I knew the answer to that question, but I believe that females spawn almost entirely on size and not age, so I think I'm going to have one year old gravid females forever. And lots of them.

Hey Bruce your boys are now trying to sow their wild oats in my male only bluegill pond! Will they give up earlier with no females as they do in Cody's pond? They have also gone off feed somewhat. Do they do that when they are on the beds in your ponds too? Females and iffies are feeding in the cage just fine. I put up staked lines wherever there is a colony or even one nest as they are nesting pretty shallow. I'm worried about the herons!

I hope to add some pics soon.

The world record bluegill repro is coming along fine. Can't believe I've had it so long! It should be shipped to you very soon.

Yes, my bluegill in the all male ponds give up early when it comes to bedding.

And yes, the feeding decreases when they're on the beds.

Can't you just bring the reproduction to the conference so everyone can see it? I'll bet I could find a way to send it home from there.

If that's what you want to do. Are you sure?

I'd love it. Then everyone can see your great work. We could put it up at the moderators table.

O.K. can do.

It seems your BG's are already losing interest. Some were already off the beds today although maybe it had something to do with water temps? I'm getting them to feed on softened pellets and some completely left their beds to feed. A big warm up started the bedding, but although there has not been a significant cooldown it has been cloudy, rainy and 70's for highs.

How soon do your male only BG pond fish lose interest in bedding Bruce?

Without females present they usually last anywhere from 5-10 days on the beds. Then they're back to the feedbag.

Sounds earily like a college frat house.

Jeff,

How dare you compare my bluegills to frat boys!

Plenty of food. Girls not available. That was high school and college for me.

I almost attended Ball State University here in Indiana because there were 5 girls to every guy!

That said I had much better luck with the girls in college. No cliques like the high school I graduated from.

Well the bluegill production pond was drained, sterilized, and refilled complete with spawning beds I hope the fish will use. Really late on this as I was held up by the smallmouth bass I was holding in the same pond. Temps have been just over 80 F. for a few days and fish have been on the beds in the pond they came from for almost a week with some already off the beds.

I planted 6 males and 8 females in this 1/10th acre pond that I caught one by one out of the all male bluegill/female perch pond, and walked quickly back to this pond via a 3 gallon buck. The females came out of a floating cage where I seperate them from the free swimming males.

My only concern is I could be too late and the females are already reabsorbing their eggs. However after Bill Cody pointed out to me the "rolling spawn" thread which I somehow missed, things may work out.

Interesting thing was once I released a male back into the pond I caught them from --- if I deemed it was not suitable -- that turned off the fish in that spawning colony and they got impossible to catch. Even if I released the fish a good 20 feet away I could see the fish bee lining right back to the colony.

I've heard fish can give off a "fear scent" which alerts the others. I also had a customer tell me when they really hit the smallmouth in a Michigan lake they put them temporarily in a live well because as soon as they released a fish the smallmouth stop hitting for the most part.

I apologize if I already posted this but here are the beds I made in the newly filled pond that were previous beds but I filled them with stone. They are now under about a foot and a half to two feet of water.

CSBG age-1 59 weeks old.

7.125 inches Wr 133



CSBG age-2 111 weeks old

9 inches Wr 136

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that about sums it up.

Well the offspring from Bruce's gills are still doing great and feeding like mad. I feed them three times a day with the 5D01. They get all the want to eat because some of the 5D01 floats so when the sinking feed is depleted they start sucking in the remaining floating feed for quite a while.

Four observations:

1.) There are some "shooters." That is, there are some that are longer and wider than the rest. (And they are quite stout!) Not sure why. Could be there were two different hatches and the bigger ones are several days older? Or do males already show faster growth this early? Or they adapted to the feed earlier than the others? Or they are simply superior fish. (shooters) There is a possibility since at least one or two females were from another stock it could be hybrid vigor? Bruce?
Bill?

2.) Biggest fish are about an inch and half now maybe 2 inches from being hatched in July.

3.) I need to get the broodstock fish out. Some of the males are bedding again in mid August. I don't need any more fish.

4.) I am also feeding tadpoles by the hundreds!

I staked the **** out of the pond with up to four 30 pound mono lines parallel to the bank and over the water, so hopefully the a heron can't get in.

Hybrids or just different genetics ?

I have found out that if you feed over the nests, the spawners will hit it hard. Also throw some a little deeper around some cover and the females will partake. This should decrease the stress of the spawn in July, Aug. and Sept. with 90 surface temps.The food may even convince some males to abandon the spawn and go back to the main feeder....yea, right.

Just different genetics, but according to the following text I have, you can get "hybrid vigor" from different genetics and not just different fish species. That what it says anyway. Not sure what chapter it's in but this is good reading.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/x3840e/X3840E01.htm

Interesting. Water temps never get above 85 F. here and I don't believe it's been that high this year. Water temps are hovering the 70's lately here.

Fifth and sixth generation CSBG

Age-1 and age-2 fish. Both captured on 9-3-08

The stats, after converting from metric are:

Fish #1: 6.75 inches and 6.0 ounces
Fish #2: 8.4 inches and 12.6 ounces

I see they're on the cutting board. With RW that high are you culling these fish?

They're being threatened to do even better. Whoops I let out Bruce's secret!

Cecil I would call that "genetic vigor" and it does occur (big vs. little people , High IQ , etc). Interesting is the comment on inbreeding depression - to many bad traits pop up and its corollary in hybrids - outbreeding depression - where the bad traits tend to pop up in offspring of hybrids (F2s F3s and FXs ).

Bruce what happened to the mini-tailed BG ? - -

Cecil do yours have that same genetic vigor ?

I still think if Bruce can produce that performance from the middle 90% of the fish, the answer to fish farming BG for fillets will exist.

Now the scary part - think what the top 1% of the BG will be doing when the above 1&2 year olds are just average.

Hey man. I know there's a reason why we still use the English method. If someone knows, tell me.

Sunil - metric was pushed here in the US about 20 yrs ago, but lobbyists and manufacturing convinced congress that it would be too expensive to convert - again another congressional mistake.

Because we're Portuguese-Americans, dag nabit!

Eric I would too but the text called it hybrid vigor even though the fish are of the same species.



Yeah I thought it was interesting reading too. What I found revealing was when one is breeding fish with like traits, i.e. fast growth, the fish are most likely closely related and one eventually will end up with a severely inbred population. Eventually growth suffers. This is why it's important to keep a separate population(s) on hand or bring in new seed if you are serious about a breeding program.



I believe so. My gills hatched in July and I already had 2 plus inch gills in August. Not most of them mind you but some of them. I have some 3 inch gills right now.

Although due to circumstances beyond my control this year with almost all of the broodstock being Bruce's, there were a few females that were of a different stock which isn't a bad thing.

Can you believe the tiny little tails on those things?

That's why they are so fat; cant get enough exercise.

That cutting board must scare them sheetless!

Just turned age-5 CSBG

Length 11.375 inches

Weight 1 lb 12 ounces

I've now caught 4 almost exactly like this over the last 5 weeks. All between 11 and 11.5 inches.

And all female!!

And note no arms extended. That BG is big enough that no camera tricks were needed. Nice fish. Tail growth may catch up with the rest of its body in a couple years.

That's a darn nice batch of BG girls. Why do I suspect their boyfriends are even more impressive?

P.S. I see you found a hat I won't make fun of!

Bruce, what are the differences in your age 5 males?

If you mean between male and female...then not much. I'm really surprised at this batch of females. They're coming out of one of my tiny reproduction ponds. Shhhh. Don't tell anybody. I haven't seen a male yet out of this group. Imagine how those females will look when they're carrying eggs in about 10 weeks!!!

WOW, Bruce, you've really gone over the top!

Yeah, those are crazy fish, but the endorsements are really over to top!!!
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Really though, crazy bluegills!

You're right. My biggest dream in life has always been to be a spokesperson for Jaeger Wald farms.

That's the definition of a dinner plate BG! Beautiful...

You can tell a truly successful operation by the world class spokesmodels they employ.

OK, I'm going to have to pull out my Jaegerwald hat and take a picture of myself wearing it, but what would I be endorsing?

Stunning, simply stunning fish Bruce.

I don't want to get too far off topic, but how many years have you been selectively breeding your BG? How much potential do you think is in your BG genetics? How much more size do you think you can tweak out of that fish and her sisters, and in future generations?

Have you considered introducing huge wild-caught freaks into your gene pool?

My theory is that I'm not adding a ton to the top-end yet (improvements in nutrition may change that). The best thing I've got going for me now is sheer numbers. My selectively bred fish have a much higher liklihood of being super growers than the fish from 5-7 generations ago. I'm in my tenth year of this program.

I have a couple of other "donor ponds" that are nearby my pond that contribute to the gene pool on an annual basis. I was afraid that if I kept just breeding the biggest CSBG together that I'd start getting fish with decreased genetic fitness. The fish above is very young for it's size. It's actually a surprise of sorts because three of my four big ones this winter came from a reproduction pond that I never got around to draining and seining from two years ago. There could be more!

Amazing fish, Bruce!

Someday I hope to have a program modeled after yours.

First, you need a good hat.

Bruce, tell us about the forage base and nutrition you provide in the repro pond. How long have these age 5 females been in it.

Awesome fish. Over 2# by April.

The fish were in the repro pond since spring of '07, when they were only 12 ounces or so. They pulled off a great year class each of the last two years, but it's a pond with a pure mud substrate that I hate to seine, so I just keep putting it off. Actually Lusk seined it by himself without getting a drop of water on himself, which to be perfectly honest with you, screwed with my head. The man is GOOD!

The nutrition is Aquamax 600 pellets, but there's also thousands of dragonflys around it, and probably hundreds of thousands of midge hatching every night in the summer. I'll bet this fish is 60-40 natural forage vs. pelleted feed.

Bruce I read through most of this thread but I didnt find anything about predators. Are you and the seine net the only predators?

There are some herons that make occasional visits. The seine is definitely predator numero uno.

Very Impressive Bruce! I can only hope to come close to that with the ones I got from you and their offspring. I can't wait to compare notes on the pumpkinseeds I will be getting you later this year!

BTW how long have you been ice free like that? I'm jealous! I keep losing ice and then refreezing here!

We've been ice free for over two weeks, but we've gotten a couple of overnight skims.

dang bruce....nice feesh. congratulations on yer hard work, its really paying off.

burger, dont let bruce intimidate you, keep posting pics of yer fish, they were beautiful by the way, i dont think i posted on that thread so i'll say it now. i'm gonna go right on posting my pics of my dinks too

Bruce, beautiful fish....
I can hardly wait for your big ole mean, hunchback, handsom spawning colored 2#+ male.
Way to go my friend....

And who said backyard biologists can't get'r dun!

About 75 days short of being 3 years old.

This is one of the original fish from this thread. It's been tracked closely since it was born in July 2006.

It's vital statistics were 10.5 inches and 1 pound 8 ounces. I think it will jump in weight dramatically soon, since it has been sequestered in a lined pond for the winter with virtually no zooplankton. The only thing it could eat was a bunch of small CSBG's.

...and same fish with improper handling technique.

(luckily it landed in the bucket)

Cat like reflexes!

Long arms.

Hey Cecil, I've got a CC that will knock Bruce out of that division. While my scale isn't certified, I can bring it over and we can check it against yours. It was released, but it was weighed as well. Lets see how long it takes for Bruce to knock me off the podium.

Scott,

I got your entry and will try and get it on the site. Hopefully we still have the software to get 'er done. The wife no longer has the software to update may main website. If anyone else wants to pick up the torch on that website I wouldn't complain...

OK, what a thread I just got done reading the whole thing end to end.. Bruce you are truly amazing.. I have a couple questions though.. First off have you had a fish reach 2lbs yet? Second do you ever see this process so called topping out or will there always be increases in your #'s? Just curious..

BGkiller,

Bruce is really occupied right now in his business, he is buying cars for his girls, and getting them ready for college so he hasn't spend much time here lately. So don't be miffed if he doesn't answer you right away. However I can answer your first question if you don't mind: Yes, he has grown some 2 lbers.

Bear in mind, he grew 2 pounders in.....NEBRASKA!!!!!

That's a pretty short growing season!

I spoke with Bruce and TJ briefly yesterday while they were in the KC area heading to a visit with our buddy Shawn Banks and to do a radio interview I think he said....he was playing witht he new truck's hand's free phone system.....the guys never slow down!