The return of the dreaded water turkeys, aka Cormorants, to my East Texas ponds is imminent....any day now. The destruction of forage fish and even game fish by these creatures every year works against every management technique I apply during the growing season.
I have tried just about everything except adding dye/coloring to the water to reduce/eliminate visibility. I have generally very clear water.
Has anyone had success in thwarting these birds by the use of water dye/coloring? If so, what has worked for you?
There is a special dye that is spread by scattering small lead bb's across the surface when they are present. A 12 guage shotgun seems to work the best and be the most economical. It's really a simple formula.
These are very aggressive hunters and to dye the water dark enough to prevent them from feeding would prevent your bass from feeding as well.
POW!!!!! POW!!!!!! No I didn't miss. There were two of them.
Brian,
Believe me, I have tried your approach...and it works well when I am onsite...but I can't be there 24/7 and the birds are smart enough to figure that out...and take advantage accordingly. It only takes being absent a day or two and they take over.... sometimes en mass. It is an extremely vexing problem. I have even considered hiring someone to patrol when I'm not onsite, but that can get to be very expensive. It is a serious problem for me and I would greatly appreciate finding a realistic solution.
I consider cormorants as big of a problem as anyone else. There is a much bigger problem though. That is the perception that we are a bunch of law breakers. We sportsmen and women are far outnumbered by people that don't hunt or fish. We need their support. Everyone talks about how they want to pass on this hunting and fishing tradition. Then they post something like this on the internet. Are you crazy? Do you think that people that oppose hunting and fishing can't read?
When a topic like this comes up, why isn't everyone jumping on it? Or when you talk about our hunting and fishing tradition, is it just that...talk? If we can't control ourselves, someone else will!
Get a permit to control cormorants. Then whatever you do, don't put it on this forum. We can't afford to look like we condon illegal actions!
Norm,
I have a perfectly legal permit...issued by the state of Texas for only $12. My post was seeking help on a 24/7 basis...for when I can not be onsite.
It was a serious post for a serious problem...and perfectly within all the laws of the State of Texas.
As long as I am operating legally on my own property, defending my property, aka fish, against predators, I defy anyone to take that right away.
I had similar problems on my pond but with a pair of great blue herons. These are beautiful stately birds and I should feel honored that they chose my pond to feed, but the sight of one of them nabbing one of my bass didn't sit well with me. My problem is, or was, lack of habitat or hiding places for my fish. My water was also pretty clear, 3 to 4 foot with a secchi disk, so they had a field day. I started to build habitat and now that most of the structures have been there for a year the fish have a place to hide. I know this is working because now I can regularly see the herons wading in the shallows which they never did before. Without cover they just flew in and BAM, caught a fish. Now they have to work for it and although they spend more time doing it, they don't seem to be as successfull. In my mind I've been doubly successfull, these are beautiful birds and they spend more time hunting around my shallows, and my fish have a fighting (or hiding) chance.
PA Pond,
Could you tell me a little more about the Heron's and what size bass they got? Did they nab this bass by grabbing him out of the water as they were flying? Did you see it happen?
I have a few herons around my place, and personally, I like them. I have no first hand evidence of them eating bass (not fingerlings) in my pond, yet I'm an absentee owner. I must add that I believe all the others here on Pondboss who say they eat bass.
While Cormorants are supposed to be common in PA,I've never seen one of them at my place yet.
Thanks.
Sunil
Before I started to work on my pond it was encircled by cat tails from the shore to 4 feet of depth, so the herons weren't able to 'wade'. They landed on standing deadwood around the pond (old trees that had died from having their roots saturated or buried from dam construction) When the heron saw a fish they dove into the water and came out with a mouthfull. The biggest I've seen them catch was a 6 to 7" fish. I've since removed the standing deadwood and eliminated their ability to pearch in the trees. Now that I've removed all of the cat tails and have my shallows back, I have the herons back as well. They just slowly stalk about in the shallow waters and I have seen them grab a fish, again medium sized, but that happens much less due to the increased structure I've added. I really have no clue as to the ratio of cover to pond surface area required for optimum results reguarding cover areas, any input about the proper ratios would be helpfull. I haven't seen any comorrants around my pond either but I'm only a few miles from the upper Delaware river and I've seen them there.
C'mon fellas- where's your sense of humor? You don't think that's funny- spreading the dye with lead shot?
I'm sure that everybody's talking about "scaring" the cormorant's away!
There's no requiremnet for " political correctness" on this forum, is there?
Brad B.
Norm Please if this forum and shooting of cormaramts is the only ammuntion anti hunting crowds can find they are in trouble. I have more licenses with my businees and do not want to get in trouble, but have not rouble whatsever advising people to shoot these critters that damage the very fish we work to raise. Try to get permits first but if that does not happen give me a break. I'm so over this political correctness. I take measuers to ensure our heritage of fishing and hunting but do not feel someone on their private pond provides a "bad image" shooting water turkeys.
Brad, I thought it was funny & nicely written.
Norm, come on buddy. Lighten up. Brad, I too thought it was funny.
Greg Grimes,
Thanks for your post...and I agree completely. This PC stuff has just gone way too far.
However, my orginal question remains unfortunately unaddressed because of the unexpected controversy.
Once again, has anyone had any success with the dye/colors in thwarting the water turkeys? Thanks for any responses to this question.
Meadowlark, I haven't used dyes but I have a real problem with them unless it is purely an ornamental pond. MY OPINION!!!The stuff keeps sunlight from penetrating. Thus, the phytoplankton is affected that is the base of the food chain. I believe it work to help keep the cormorant problem down but might create a bigger problem.
Anyone else? Bill Cody??
meadowlark,
Sorry if you said but how big is the pond? Unless you add alot of dye it will not darken the water enough. I used 250 gallons this year. As mentioned it lowers primary production by blocking sunlight to phyto. I use in ponds and lakes where asethetics is more important than fish production. Also I add just enough (blue) dye to mix with muddy conditions that results in a nice green color that most pond owners would never even know is dye. Problem is if you do that I doubt it will work. I guess my point is you will have to apply lots , which is fairly $$ and I doubt it will work??? One last point is that if you use during the cool months (nov-march) of the year you will not have to worry about harming fish production point b/c little production occurs then anyway. Good luck and I still say shoot them when you can.
This last fall i just died a few out of the sky , my pond is surrounded by trees and these fish eaters were so heavy [with my fish] they had to circle around several times to clear the trees - ya know they did'nt make it. to heavy i guess !
screw being politically correct. those folks can "kiss my bass." ( i didn't make that up, i think i saw it on a bumper sticker somewhere)!!
abide with the law, if ya don't, at least don't post if over the internet.
if ya kill something, don't let it suffer.
Lighten up.
Protect your land and what you've invested in it.
ok, concerning meadowlarks question. if it is legal there, i would shoot as many as i can. maybe train a dog that you can adopt from the humane society to chase the birds/scare them away. how about motion sensored sprinklers depending on the size of your pond. and if small enough pond, netting. if electricity nearby, set a timer, and maybe a stereo under a shed....have it turn on via timer to the sound of gunshots, or dog bark or whatever scares of herons and cormorants. maybe you could buy a cheap cd player....and i wonder if one of those crow/owl call cd's would work. maybe some day when you are around there you can record when the birds are out there the most, and set your timer to those times for the cd player to come on. and set your cd to replay so it will start all over at the end of the cd/tape or whatever.
just a thought or two, hope it helps.
out of curiosity...anybody know why those cormorants are protected/require a permit? how do they benefit the ecosystem? are their numbers low or something? i've been to lake fork fishing, and those little white air rats are everywhere. trees down there look white from their poop. not that i want any species to become extinct, but i'm just curios. i mean, i can understand the california condor and bald eagle and the panda etc. but if there were pandas running everywehere, there'd be a season on them probably, for environmental control/equilibration of the ecosystem (man, i'm sounding nerdy huh?!!) . mark
Cormorants are actually coming off the endangered list but are still not considered a game bird so they cannot be hunted. I know of one person in Wisconsin that was given a permit to shoot them but can shoot only 5 a year. I think we need the boys in Texas to buy the $12 permits I heard were coming out and shoot all they can. Of course this is just something I read on this board so I am not sure they ever became a reality.
I agree with those who say "take care of problems when they occur". Government is not always there to help.
I'm reminded of a recent Dallas/Fort Worth news story about a mockingbird that was dive bombing kids at a local Elementary School. The bird was nesting in a tree by the front door and protecting its "home area". The news caster said that nobody knew what to do because it was the Texas State bird and that all but 3 types of birds were federally protected. The liberals that ran the school were going to have the hundreds of children enter by a side door. I couldn't believe that "nobody knew what to do". The story only ran once but I got curious and called the news reporter. She hadn't followed up on it so I called the school. Seems that some vandal had destroyed the nest. Most likely some dumbass redneck that put the interest of children over birds.
Brian,
FYI, the $12 permit in Texas is for unlimited "harvesting" (Euphemism for the pc) as long as you are on your own property and have a valid Texas hunting permit. Also, they require that you keep a log of you "harvests".
I can't help but share this story about wildlife and politically correct. soon you'll see where i get my ... genes from.
As you know, i'm very proud of my parents. my dad is a retired naval officer, fighter pilot for 25 years; famous for his record setting number of nighttime aircraft carrier landings. graduate of the naval academy and an ego the size of texas (but in a pleasant way; just very confident). well, when we moved to arkansas, there was a festival called "turkey trot" in our hometown. during the festival, turkeys would be dropped over the town, often from roof tops. well, we moved to town, and people found out he was a pilot. dad found out that the national forestry service would drop turkeys from small airplanes to distribute turkeys. so, for about 15 years, he and buddy would fly a small plane over the town (safely of course), and drop turkeys to people below; turkeys would fly down and run around and people would catch them and take them home for thanksgiving or release them (festival is in october). tshirts were made, news crews visited, magazines did articles...the National Enquirer, Saturday Evening Post, Wall Street Journal.
Well, the Environmentalists thought it was cruelty to animals, made a big stink about it. dad would have his pilots license suspended every year for 90 days until the faa finally said, ok you can do it but only those few days a year.
well, amidst all of this, Wall Street Journal interviewed him. The following was printed in the Washington Post and Wall Street Journal:
"We asked Commander USN retired , former fighter/attack pilot in the Navy for 25 years if he felt GUILTY about dropping turkeys out of airplanes. CDR Williams replied, "Do I feel GUILTY about dropping turkeys out of airplanes?? I dropped napalm on the vietnamese...hell no I don't feel guilty about dropping turkeys out of airplanes" !!
so i say again (thanks to my father's genes), screw being politically correct.
mark
Dave & Mark
I am sure that a good deal of scientific work has been done on the effect of cormorant, herons, etc. on ponds. Does anyone here know how much real damage they are likely to do to the fishing in a sporting pond? What size fish are they generally eating? How many bluegill would they have to eat to make a real difference?
I have to confess to having a lot of sympathy with Norm's POV. We enjoy having a pair of greater blues and one or two green herons around, but I have been under the impression that they eat only small fish and that the mainstay of their diet is frogs, etc. We only have rare cormorant passing through here, but I enjoy watching them catch fish as much as I do catching them, myself. Kingfishers are a hoot to watch. We also have goldeneye ducks in the winter. I am sure they eat their share of fish, but they are a laugh on a grey winter day.
I am not speaking ill of those who are infested with dozens of cormorants and want to do something about it, but one or two??? I started hunting before I started to school, but I have never been proud to shoot anything I couldn't eat. Above all, we need some facts from our experts on the effects of these birds.
Lou
lou, i mean no disrespect. but whatever you shoot that you cannot eat, there are others who gladly will.
mark
svoberts, West Point grad huh!! we'll forgive ya!!! ( as we all know, if you went there, you ain't no stupid feller....just mis...directed!! hahaha!!...go Navy!!!)
Another funny story, one time, dad was a guest lecturer for my high school physics class. me and my brother (both "squids" kids) were sitting next to a Marine's son. well, dad finished his lecture on Aviation/mariner navigation. dad asked, "did everyone get that?? OOOHHH, we have a Marine's kid here, I better repeat all that again." later that year, I won the Anatomy and Physiology award....and the teacher was that Marine's kid dad...he said..."we all ought to be proud of this next young man's achievements....being a squid kid and all..."......now, the only people who may get this are military folks...but, hopefully pleasurable none the less.!!!
enjoy, mark
Lou, I understand your view. Up to a point, but only up to a point. I don't even kill rattlesnakes or copperheads unless they are around the house or pond or other places that I/we spend a lot of time around. I consider all water snakes as harmless until I find out differently. I don't allow non discriminatory shooting or "target practice" with rabbits, turtles or sparrows as the objective. If you shoot a buck on my land, it better go to the taxidermist.
However, I mercilessly destroy pests or problems with me being the only judge on my own land. A lot of people like squirrels but, around the house(s), I try to eliminate them. They have chewed 2 holes in the side of my house for nesting and multiple holes in the sides of my trailer house in the country. Long billed birds around the pond also qualify since I insist on being the only external predator at the water hole. A couple of years ago stray dogs just about ran all of the deer off my land. Game cameras showed nothing but dogs, even at night. That's no longer a problem. Mad neighbors are. They were asked politely and then warned multiple times.
A lot of people say "It's just nature" and I agree and understand. It is the nature of rodents to gnaw and of coyotes to kill easy prey. However, I'm not into rehabilitation but believe strongly in retribution and handling problems on a personal basis. BTW, I really like coyotes and would much rather have them than I would chickens. Actually, I think I prefer all wildlife more than I like people, children excepted. Oh yeah, I like dogs but they need to be kept up.
Sorry, this got wordy and I need to get off my soap box and get ready for work.
Herons are tasty...
...or so I've been told. :rolleyes:
Dave for President, Daaavvveee for President!!!
Mark, I'll call W - we need Dave on the Supreme Court now. He can resign in 2006 to go for the top slot. Well, maybe not. I hear that Hillary is going for it and four (probably eight) more years of the Clintons is pretty appealing.
JM, heron is great! Not quite as good as spotted owl, but close. Now, if you want incomparable table fare, try those woodpeckers with the whitish bills.
Dudley, I've spent a lifetime trying to avoid courts. I've not always been successful. My concept of "self help" has occasionally landed my butt in hot water. I thought once that I was going to be on a diet of cold sandwiches with no second cup of coffee, not even decaf. You know, they have a narrow minded bunch of public servants in East Texas.
Now, if it could maybe be a Federal Judgeship, I'd be proud to serve. Just think about it; a no cut contract for life with no real accountability. Ain't it great to be an American?
oh, and Dudley for ...chairman of the EPA !!
Ya know im in no hurry to get in trouble with the law - havent yet - other than a few speeding tickets - and i still think those cops picked the wrong car everytime . what agency do you contact for the water turkey permit ?
here's the url
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/news/news/040830b.phtml and info
For information about the cormorant permit, including applications, contact TPWD Wildlife Permitting, 4200 Smith School Rd., Austin, TX 78744 or call (512) 389-4491.
I would love to get a photocopy of the Texas permit from someone who has one. It would be a great novelty to hang on the wall with my fish hatchery licenses.
Anyone have the permit?
Brian
Dave Davidson,
I whole heartedly agree with your aproach to pest control on
own property!
I would only add that a coyote
has at least one other redeeming quality. He will kill & eat all the cats he can catch!
I like dogs too, but cats ... they're too self-centered, untrainable, too independent.
I guess they're too much like me!
People should keep their pets up! Why is it that they think
everybody else wants their pets around too? I live in the middle of a 60 ac tract & can't leave my muddy boots on the porch without a neighbors dog dragging them off!
Maybe BigPond has the answer with the Blue cats! Grow fish bigh enough to eat the water turkeys!
I hear gators will take down a heron, why not a water turkey!
I would need to have 1/2 dozen gators on my pond to keep up with the water turkeys...they are really bad news.
Spend all your money, work and slave to get a good forage base established and the #&** water turkeys wipe all that out in a matter of days.
I have more problems with herons than anything else. Anyone know of a supplier for gators in Wisconsin? Do they travel well by Fed Ex?
I tried that. FedEx won't ship them - you have to use UPS and pay extra for 2nd Day Air shipping, plus there's a HAZMAT fee ($20, I think).
Free country free speach, Wax em!
Al Kohutek,
Those are pretty cool.
For some unknown reason, I've only experienced one lone water turkey this season. Maybe the permits in Texas are working.
I need a permit for grass carp and water turkeys. where do I go to get one?
James,
I posted it in an earlier note on this thread:
"here's the url
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/news/news/040830b.phtml and info
For information about the cormorant permit, including applications, contact TPWD Wildlife Permitting, 4200 Smith School Rd., Austin, TX 78744 or call (512) 389-4491.
The grass carp permit is linked to the TPW home page, as I remember.
The grass carp won't help your algae problem. The Tilapia will, but you have to give them time to work at it. Depending on how many you stock and how bad your problem is, it may take longer than you wish.
If you have a real bad case you may want to try some Cutrine Plus and then follow-up with the Tilapia for ongoing control. That is what I did.
See several other posts on the use of Cutrine Plus.
Thanks for the information. I thought that these cormerants migrated out of here during the summer?
Yes, they do...usually. Maybe you need to make them feel unwelcome.
Hey Meadow,
This may have been asked before, but do the water turkeys roost in certian trees? I cant recall if WT's sit up in old dead trees or just float around..
A gas cannon might work. It is used to ward off birds in agricultural fields. They work off LP gas. Here is a link to get started. They are not cheap.
www.deerbusters.com
darnold,
They have a special fondness for old dead trees sticking up in the water....they use to recycle their freshly eaten fish (i.e. poop) from your pond and rest up for the next days feast. If not trees, then any kind of structure sticking up out of the water will attract them. They leave a definite calling card.
Meadowlark,
Is it a possibility to remove the trees? I have several dead trees in my lake too, seems like I am going to have to deal with the same issue (after I fill and stock the lake). I was wondering how big of a job it is to cut them down...
D
All you need to do is cut them off at the water line. With a chain saw and a stable platform that wouldn't be too difficult unless you have a lot of trees. Above water trees don't provide any fish structure anyway.
That won't completely rid you of the problem but it will help. At least they won't use you as a Motel 6 that way. Once they find you, and they do have their ways, they will return. You just have to make sure they know they aren't welcome at all/any times.
I guess they are everywhere...did you see Web site from the UK?
http://www.cormorants.info/ Look under management for additional ideas. (I didnt see an section on target practice)
They are everywhere, everywhere!
Dan Patterson sent me a copy of an article that described a Government study in the Green Bay area of the effects of water turkeys. Guess what...the Government has discovered that water turkeys eat fish! My, my. What a surprise!
Enjoy the spring and summer cause just like the seasons, they will return in the fall to wreck havoc.
I can assure you some components of the government are not happy with them either. Maybe that's why they are coming around.
I was told by a biologist in Alpena, Michigan that due to a combination of walleye predation and commorants they only get a 1/10th of 1 percent survival rate of the brown trout they plant into Lake Huron. They've actually seen the commorants waiting in anticipation when the stocking truck pulls up to the lake and then the birds actually herd and go on a feeding orgy on schools of the fingerlings wiping them out on the spot.
Alpena has historially had a "Brown Trout Festival" for many years where one aspect is a brown trout contest which consists of a tournament. Trouble is catching brown trout has become really tough last I heard.
I understand the islands they roost and nest on in the Great Lakes are absolutely desicrated with foul smelling feces due to an unnaturally high concentration of the birds. The islands look and smell like a sewer dump.
Cecil, that sounds pretty typical for an island nesting ground for a water bird.
Folks bemoan the extinction of the Passenger Pigeon, quoting old accounts of how the huge flocks would "turn the sky dark." What they fail to note is that the same flocks would also turn the ground white.
Now thats a sight I can visualize....water turkeys sitting around waiting for the fish truck to show up.
I absolutely believe you. I have seen them roundup fish just like they were cows and then proceed to eat every one of them...in a community lake.
Maybe the Government will finally wise up, but I have my doubts....too many well meaning folks who want to protect them.
Please, Meadow, dont maintain your political correstness. Many are not well meaning people, they are people, some of which have probably never seen a water turkey except the same video of the same one with oil on it in Valdez, but have to feel that they are making a difference.
War on water turkeys!
burgermeister,
You are right, so right. Its just that a lot of people really do not realize the harm these birds can cause. If you lived in New York City (oh shudder the thought) or LA(even worse) you might think we were a bunch of red necked cowboys chasing down innocent birds...well come to think of it, they will probably think that regardless.
Meadowlark,
No experience with dyes but I liked the ideal of lead dies spread over the surface...
Have you considered using ramdomly fired noise cannons while you are not there? Somewhere in my memory I saw noise cannons being used to scare birds away from some air field or some farmer's crop. Maybe it was on TV. It should work on turkeys.
I had a friend that trained a hunting dog to stay in his field to chase the wildlife away. He never brought the dog home. From the first day he got the dog he fed the dog in the field. He set up a dog pen with a waterer, dog house, etc. Perhaps a labador retriever could be stationed at the pond and trained to chase away all water birds. For some of the guys with poacher problems, a nasty junkyard dog might work to stop the poachers. Just be sure to keep the rabies shots up to date and properly recorded. It is just one step above a man trap but should be excluded from the booby trap laws.
Meadowlark,
Perhaps we are looking at water turkeys all wrong.... perhaps we should see them as a game bird, they might taste like chicken or at least could be served as chicken to some in-laws.
I have eaten a lot of wildlife but never a water turkey. Any experience out there?
The new member "Boone" is a cajun and claims to have a "MEAN" Sauce Piquante that may just be the ticket. Good hunting.
Meadowlark,
You rednecked innocent bird chasing cowboy. Just for your information, New Yorkers (in cooperation with southern fish hatcheries) raise water turkeys for export to Texas. Its a very lucrative business I must admit. This springs hatch was a dandy and should really blacken the sky when we send them your way this fall. We are now starting to use GPS, which enables us to pinpoint a specific destination. So where in Texas do you live??
Russ
I had heard of people giving one way boat rides to pigs and raccoons to some of those islands in Green Bay. They seem to be real fond of water turkey eggs. Some of those islands were wooded but are now just whitewashed rock piles.
At one point I beleive they fed them on Kidney Island in an attempt to help them recover their numbers. Now the island is totally destroyed. I am just north of Green Bay and only a couple miles off the water. I don't see them too often, they don't seem to come inland much, but we still keep watching and ready to defend our fish.
I would still love to get a copy of a Texas permit for them. It would be a nice novelty.
Russ,
I have to say its working...even without my lat. and long. they always find their way back.
We need to figure out a way to send you guys some fire ants...in return for your generous gift. You all would love them. They clean up the environment, cultivate the dirt and in general do a fine job of keeping an eye on things. We will just have to strap some on your returning water turkeys and make them a present to you all.
Meadowlark,
Fire ants !! Ok, I'm sending up the white flag. While visiting a friend in Hutto, Tx., I saw first hand what pain they can cause. His 4 year old daughter got tangled up with a party of those critters. Not good, lots of screaming.
Russ
Enjoyed reading all the angles of your problems & must admit ya'll know more about water turkeys than I do.I don't have any problem here at all.I had a problem with a gator ,but that only lasted two days & he ended up in a "Sauce Piquante".
Dennis..you out there?? We had a problem with "Nutreas" down here & now they are a delicacy because us "Cajuns" showed everybody how to cook them.I don't think I ever ate a water turkey but would try it ."Cajuns will eat anything that wont eat them first".
Have a nice day !!!
Boone