Birds eating my fish are driving me crazy. Does anyone have a link or reference as to what's legal to shoot, and what's federally protected ? I don't mind losing a few to "nature", but killing my pond is something different. I would think that "if" certain birds were protected federally, there would be a site to identify them. I heard there's over 60 species of Herons, all protected, it this true ? B. Lusk should consider an article about this. Seems like the rules are always changing...and pond owners are on their own. Herons, Egrets, Cormorants...are they all safe ? I need help here !!!! ~pecked alive !
All of those birds are protected to some extent and only a fish farmer can get a permit from the US Fish & Wildlife Service as far as I know to kill them. Even then the fish farmer has to show he had tried everything nonlethal to stop the birds.
Have you tried any nonleathal ways to deal with the wading birds? I have run bright yellow 80 lb. test line around my pond sometimes three strands deep attached to screws on 1 X 2's that I made into stakes. I ordered the fishing line from Cabelas.
Since the wading birds do not land in the water, if you set the strand up high enough that they can't step over and low enough that they can't go under it, it will stop them. Others on here are using an electric fence.
I do know some are shooting them if they are isolated enough not to be seen. Not recommending this but I know some folks do it.
Another option is training a dog to run them off when the dog sees them.
I have done all this and more as I raise fish. The latest is trying to take a jab at my bigger fish off the pier or standing on one of my floating cages and doing the same. However my cages which have fish on them have netting stretched out on top so they are safe. Its the fish outside of the cage they are after.
The BFD (Big Fast Dog) mentioned in the link that Ric posted has worked well for me. Once my Blue Heeler saw me harrassing the water turkey that showed up a few weeks back she would jump right in the pond and chase that fisheater from one end to the other. I praised her every time. After about 5 days of this I looked out my kitchen window to see a black fisheater laying in the grass. Yep, she snuck up on it and killed it then drug it up to show me what a good job she did. That was about a month ago and I haven't seen any more water turkeys in the pond.
A $10.00 air horn and some bottle rockets work for me. My brother-in-law uses his sons paint ball gun.
i wrote this topic.... take a look.. we have the same problems..
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000933 chris
I just don't understand the problem or why you guys are burning air space. Protect your property. They all taste a little like chicken.
Well Dave it's like this. Had someone near me shoot a Great Blue Heron and get caught. Cost him $25,000 and community service.
shoot it in the chest with 22 , it will fly away and die elsewhere. 22 short makes hardly any noise in a rifle.
Well so much for my air horn idea, they seem to be getting use to it now. This is starting to remind me of the movie Caddy Shack and the war on Gophers. My wife did tell me that she will have to call the proper authorities on me if she sees me going out to feed the fish dressed in camouflage and war paint on my face.
Eastland, you asked for a list of what is protected. Here is a
link to a listing of federally-protected avian species, including waterfowl. It is a federal felony to shoot birds on the list without a permit.
As to heron themselves, they are not an endangered species yet, but one of the reasons they come to our ponds is that their habitat has been decimated by development with no significant replacement and the species is coming under stress. Cormorants are nowhere near endangered and are a real problem in many places and as Chris's explanation of current events in Texas, and as with whitetails here in Ohio and elsewhere, properly-managed culls are an appropriate response. Sorry to preach, but taking the law into our own hands, in my opinion, is not; if everyone got to choose just one felony to commit, IMHO the world would not be a better place.
These laws are in place for a purpose, not just to harass us. For a long time, people blasted anything in sight, anytime they wanted. The result was almost the complete loss of our native wildlife. Gradually, laws and the obeyance of these laws brought these wildlife populations back.
Many people still believe that taking an extra deer or two, a few more fish or shooting a heron or two doesn't matter that much. That's probably true if it were just one person, one time. Unfortunately, it's not just one person and the toll does add up.
Like many sportsmen, I will turn in a law breaker in a second. I figure they more than deserve what they get.
Cecil, $25,000 is a lot of herons. That might make me regret my actions. What case was that? I'd like to look it up if you can cite the case number or some other defining feature. That kind of judicial abuse is uncalled for and I would like to use that kind of information to show Texas and US legislators the danger of the laws they pass or the problems caused by a lack of oversight by our governmental watch dogs. I've done quite a bit of lobbying.
Norm, I don't think that all laws make sense. I hunt a lot but haven't shot anything in a couple of years. Don't remember ever breaking any hunting or fishing laws. I realize that laws are there to protect the environment and that predators are only doing what comes naturally. I don't even kill rattlesnakes unless they are close to the house or stock tank.
There is no shortage of herons, cormorants, and other protected predator birds . I'm sure some well meaning persons legislated to get all but a couple of birds protected. These same well meaning, protective sort of people got the snow goose in a heckuva jam by letting them over breed until they now threaten themselves. But that is not my problem. I don't anticipate any snow goose problems. But, I will protect my property and investment any time I feel that they are threatened. Without concern for constraints.
Dave,
Don't know what case if was but it was in Lagrange County of Indiana a few years back and involved a doctor by the name of Egly (sp?) My dad told me about it and he read it in the local paper. He also talked to the doctor as he is my dad's doctor. The doctor was hunting and says he mistook the Great Blue Heron for a goose which I find hard to believe.
I can see the argument that their habitat is shrinking but at the same time in my area they seem to be increasing in numbers and you see them everywhere flying from body of water to body of water. I am constantly running them off and have done everything nonlethaly possible to protect my investment. It's working for the most part. They are also part of a parasite cycle and I have no love for them whatsoever.
In the state of Alabama there is no shortage of Herons. They seem to be doing quite well. In the other states I have visited hunting like Arkansas and Tennessee I see Herons everywhere. From my view point I see them certainly not in any danger of extinction. For example lets say you do have a pond and a visiting Heron, IF you shoot it.......soon another one will show up. There may be a certain type of Heron that is not common but the Blue Herons and the little Green ones are definitely not it.
Laws, of necessity, must be applied evenly across the board. The trouble is that there are so many exceptions. Over populations of cormorants, white tail deer and snow geese have already been mentioned. Let me add Canada geese to that list.
I agree with Inland Island. Giving local officials the authority to use properly managed culls is the best solution. Minneapolis has the habitat to support 250,000 Canada geese. Through proper management, they have held the population to a tolerable 25,000 birds.
Sometimes, we seem to be our own worst enemies. We don't talk in specifics. We say "are turtles bad?" when there are so many species or different situations. We get our facts wrong "birds carry fish eggs from pond to pond". We give ourselves the reputation (sometimes deservably) of not having the slightest idea of what is going on. How many of us really know the status of Herons?
We sportsmen are vastly outnumbered by people that that don't hunt or fish. We can't just tell them to go to hell. We need their support. When we take matters into our own hands, we give ourselves the reputation of being outlaws that don't deserve the public's support. We can't afford that.
I also believe in population control when required, it's too late not to in some cases where man has upset the balance, overgrazing by ungulates due to removal of natural predators, Yellowstone for example. But I agree with Norm regarding who should be the judge and jury for what goes and what stays. Population dynamics are too complicated to assume that there are lots of anything and should be killed.
When we build our ponds, we create habitat and nature will capitalize on this. As landowners, we are stewards for the next generation and I don't think we can rely on Gov't "protected areas" soley to provide habitat. A lot of our wildlife relies on private land ownership and protection.
I am in no way preaching to others what to do on their own land and how to manage it. Just stating fact. On my land, I try to educate my children and teach them tolerance. It is by no means convenient for me to have a heron gobble up trout on my small pond, and I have tried to discourage him, but I have decided to tolerate him anyway.
The foothills of the rocky mountains are a couple hours drive from where I live. Ranchers lease grazing land from the Gov't in that area. Grizzly bears, cougars and wolves also live there. You can see the conflict, these predators capitalize on the bounty dropped on their laps, the ranchers want these predators gone. There are some although that realize that you have to expect some predation and tolerate it.
No matter what side of the fence you are on, it is a difficult and complicated subject.
Just my two cents.
I saw four herons at my pond this morning. 3 large gray ones and 1 large white one. They are large birds with long beaks.
Hopefully short-term, when I revamp it so shallow water is 3 feet deep, they will find better pickings elsewhere.
Hopefully long-term, I'll have bluegill and bass in there big enough to consider them a tasty snack! ;-) ha ha
As was elluded to earlier could be the law was enacted when they were in danger of extinction and now that that are so common they are pests the law has not be altered.
the wheels of goverment move slowly. lol you have a right to protect your property. i don't mind the heron coming once in a while and getting some fish , it's the stuff he may bring with him or other birds bring , duckweed , watermeal or what ever else. alot of ponds around here are covered in that stuff. mine will not be.... canadian geese don't migrate anymore and need to be dealt with. texas finaly wised up on the cormorant problem , now the feds need to address the problems of other birds so land owners can protect their investments. a pond covered in crap is not appealing.
Game laws are important. Had we had them, the Passenger Pigeon wouldn't be extinct. The Whitetail deer was overhunted and getting scarce when laws were enacted. The Plains Buffalo is a story everyone knows.
Problems: Deer have been so protected that they have been called rats with antlers in some urban areas. The afore mentioned Snow Goose is facing real problems. Political pressures create real messes. Those areas on the Eastern Seaboard that didn't respond quickly enough to whitetail numbers growth have a real Catch-22 on their hands. The deer are now urbanized. Now, just how do you do "population control" on the neighborhood Bambi; even if it is a Lyme Disease tick host and is eating the prize roses?
I like to say that I believe in justice rather than law. However, I'm glad everyone doesn't think like me. Whose justice are we going to use? Mine or PETA's? Therein lies the problem.
The squirrels that chewed 2 holes in the side of my house are protected by law. I live in a suburb of Fort Worth. I can't legally shoot them and they are trap wise. I recently talked to a neighbor who had a ceiling full of fleas from nesting squirrels. Over $100 in pest control fees. I dedided to push back and do some trimming of the population. 5 homeowners around me are shooting them with a lightweight bullet called a calibri. Almost no noise and limited range.
BTW, I once read the autobiography of Theodore Roosevelt. He is known as a conservationist. However, he tells of killing what he believed to be the last woods buffalo in what is now Yellowstone. He said he felt priveleged to do it. Not my kind of deal.
Balance seems to be one of the hardest things in the world to achieve. I read somewhere that in Minneapolis, 1/3 of the people would kill all the geese, another 1/3 would protect all of them with 1/3 in the middle.
We very much need that 1/3 in the middle to be on our side. We need them to help us get the flexibility we need to manage populations of species that can become problems. For us, that especially means cormorants and Canada geese.
In the mean time, this forum gives us great advise on handling these problems. It also gives us perspective on the tremendous difference in damage cormorants can cause vrs. herons or other species.