We have a pond that was filled for the first time in may 2002. Its man made and filled with a well. The pond is very murky, very low visibility. lots of algea suspended in the water, not to much floating. Its about 3/4 acres and has an areater sp. running 24/7. lots of weed beds in the shallows under the water surface. 9ft at the deepest and probably averages 4ft.

We stocked 70 cat fish, 350 blue gill & 2000 minnows on 5-20-02. Then 70 large mouth bass on 8-27-02.
In the late fall we found 25-30 blue gill & 15 cats dead at the shore.
After fishing it in the spring of 2003 and not catching any blue gill or bass we desided something went wrong and there gone???? The only thing we could catch were the catfish???
On 8-18-03 we stocked 350 blue gill, 100 lmb, & 100 cats, all of a little larger size.
We have done overall very little fishing out there but over this last weekend we did alot.
We caught several 1.5 lb cats (they seem easy)
1 small blue gill 3-4 inches and 1 cat 5-6 inches???

Now the Questions, I thought the cats would not reproduce in a small pond yet that little cat would say yes and 2 of the 1.5 lb cats had real fat bellies (eggs?)
I think the lone blue gill would have been spawned too but I would expect that.
Why are we not catching blue gill and bass??? You would think you would have too fight the blue gill off with a stick. Now my son swears he had a lmb on that got off right at the shore, about 2 lbs.
Does this over fertle pond make it harder to catch some of them?? Is it good for the fish??

My hatchery says to add some grass carp. Any suggestions? The pond is to unclear to see anything but the minnows and theres lots of them. Everthing we have caught seems plump and healthy. Are they in there and were overstocked now??
Should I remove some 1.5 lb cats since we catch them readily???

Mike,

What were the sizes of fish that you stocked? Perhaps by stocking your prey and predators at the same time, the bluegill ended up as dinner instead of having a chance to establish a forage base.

Russ

Russ, the initial stocking of cat and blue gill were of the small variety 2-3 inches. the first bass stocking 3 months later were also the small size. In the stocking the next year (2003) As recomended we used 3-4 inch B.G, 3-4 in. bass & 4-6 in. cat. so they would not be eaten by what may or may not be out there.

Update: Went fishing out there last night for 3-4 hours. Not much happening till later when the sun started too set, halled in 4 cats in the 1.5 to 2lb range and 3-4 baby cats, 5-6 inches??????
Went out this morning while still dark with a spot lite. without the glare from the sun you can see lots of stringy looking weeds growing from the bottom every where (thick). I suspect this is another form of algea?? Still couldnt see far down as the pond has algea suspended in the water making it pea soup like.

Any one have any answars too my earlier questions? Thanks

Mike, grass carp are an easy sell for hatcheries but be sure they're right for you. They will eat almost anything before they eat algae, and if you have a lot of stuff growing on the bottom will rip it out and contribute to the murk. They will also come up out of the water, I swear, and pull plants (they really love elephant ears) off the bank.

As to the cloudiness, if it is pea-soup green, perhaps someone here can advise you on fertilization of the pond; I don't understand the process fully, but I have a vague awareness that causing a massive algae bloom can lead to clarification as nutrients are absorbed. One way to reduce algae adn bottom-growing stuff, add some bluing agent if you don't mind the color change (a little goes a long way, though). It alters the light wavelength and reduces growth.

For filamentous algae, which may or may not be the stuff growing off the bottom, chelated copper sulfate products like Cutrine Plus do a great job of pushing it back. You can easily tell by grabbing some if it is algae or plants; grass carp will be more effective if it is the latter.

Also, based on my experience, a newly-filled pond can have clay ionically suspended in it for which you can aerate until the cows come home without making a difference; a test I learned from Cecil on another board is to stand a big jar of the water for a couple of days and see if it stays cloudy. If the water has susupended clay, it's an easy fix with aluminum sulfate powder dissolved and broadcast; made a big difference for us.

24/7 aeration is awfully expensive, and it doesn't sound like lack of 02 is your problem.

Hi MIke well to answer your question about catfish reproduction, I didn't think it was possible but over the weekend I wanted to clean a bunch of my large 3 plus year old catfish out and ran a trotline. Caught 15 cats from 3 to 7 pounds. Also was doing a little bluegill fishing and caught a 8 inch catfish! I don't think there is any way catfish stocked over three years ago only gained at a maximum 4 inches. So I guess last year they did reproduce. I have several hollowed out oak logs courtesy of lovely carpenter ants in my pond and believe these provided the refuge needed. Hope that helps some. Forgot to add my pond is a little over 1/3 acre 8' max depth.

Bob

Mike,
Do a visability test. You're shooting for 18" to 24" vis. If less than 12" you need to do aeration NOW!

Thanks for the replies. I stopped at the fish hatchery yesterday and he suggested and I bought 10 grass carp. He also suggested copper sulfate but said he wouldnt put it in now since it may kill eggs from any recent spawning activity. Is there any of that stuff that wont hurt the eggs??
He said to put in the bluing agent. He didnt know why I would be having trouble catching blue gill and LMB since from the stocking #s I could be overstocked. He did suggest that the poor clarity may be a factor since the BG and LMB strike on sight and the cats on smell?? anyone buy that???
When I got home with the grass carp I noticed A big change in the pond, It is now brown instead of green? Is this just the next phase???
Onto the clarity, Its hard to describe but Im reading on here all the time about people fertilizing to reduce visibility down to 18-24in. That has NEVER been my problem, Visibilty right now is down too 3-4 inches and the best I have ever seen it is 8-10 in.????

So my two issues to resolve is:

#1 Why is my clarity so poor and is it a problem???

#2 Why cant I catch the blue gill and LMG, does anyone think there somehow not in there and I need to restock again???

One more issue that somone may have experience on. My air pump ( 2 yrs old) wont start any more by itself, you have to plug it in, then reach in with a screwdriver and spin the pump end and it takes right off. after numerous hours of run time it quits, and when I find it like this its hotter than **** . I let it cool and then re- spin start it again. I changed the capaciter but that didnt help, I even tried a super booster??

It sounds like the bearings on the Air Pump are going bad. If you can get to the bearings and/or drive shaft, you may be able to get some (temporary) improvement by cleaning and relubing.

My guess is you will be seeing your fish soon!
Sorry but it sounds like you're headed for a fish kill.

Mike--I'm not sure exactly what leads Ric to his conclusion, but if you for sure had a serious pea-green algae bloom and it is now brown it sounds like the algae all died, which means lack of dissolved oxygen, which would indeed lead to trouble for the fish. So when you say "is this the next stage," the answer may be yes, but maybe not in a good way. If you are able to get started immediately, like tomorrow, with aeration, then go for it; FWIW, I had the tube for my aerator above ground for awhile before I got it trenched in, and merely installing the aerator is a snap--get the stone out to the middle of the pond and plug in the compressor. As far as copper sulfate killing eggs, I don't know the answer; but given the amount of algal growth you've described you would probably want to apply Cutrine or whatever to part of the pond at a time, especially since you already have a heavy load of decaying biologicals underway. You might also consider investing in a round of beneficial microbes to help with consumption of the decaying matter in the water column.

Mike, one more thing--it's worth thinking about whether the lack of clarity is suspended clay vs. organic matter, live, decaying, or otherwise. We have a 3/4 acre clay pond, filled entirely by runoff. The clarity for the first couple of years was essentially nil, and with guidance from Cecil Baird on the Farm Ponds board I was able to use jars of water to determine that I had ionically suspended clay in the water. I applied alum (aluminum sulfate) and the clarity has since been far better. It's an easy test to run, but it sounds like you need to focus on oxygen issues first. Good luck!

Island,
Many posts on this site advising on bloom, water vis. ect. A little searching can save you the same sorrows others have had.
There is a reason the pros now advise a min. of 18" vis. verses the 12" that used to be the standard. 12" vis is too close to the danger every pondmiester is very careful to avoid when fertilizing a pond. If something unforseen happens & the bloom increases beyond 12" vis a fish kill is very probable if the bloom continues to increase.
Mike,
You say vis is 3"-4". Very not good!
I am not a pro .. going from memory:(which btw isn't too good anymore) The algae will produce oxygen during the day & use oxygen at night. If vis is 18" or better then more oxygen will be produced during the day than is used at night. Somewhere below 12" the algae will use more oxygen at night than it can produce during the day. So it dies. As the bloom dies it consumes more oxygen as it decays & the decaying matter adds more nutrients to the pond starting the cycle over again.
So. The result is very low do and a fish kill starting with the largest fish.

Yes the hatchery guy is correct.

Ric-- Thanks for the summary. I've never had any sort of pea-soup boolm and so haven't had to focus on that particular pondly devilment yet! My visibility hovers around 2'+, after treatment two years ago.

Mike,
I am afraid to advise you on what to do in this situation, other than aerate, to avoid a fish kill. You must reduce the bloom & in the future try to prevent excess bloom. I'm not schooled on this subject other than what I've learned here.
The only other thing I know that has been used with success is barley straw. It will reduce the "stringy algae" but is best used as a deterent rather than a fix.
Do you have any idea why you have the excess bloom this year if not last? Did you over fertilize? Is there runoff from nutrient rich farmland?
Look for the source of the excess nutrients contributing to the bloom & eliminate or try to control it.

BTW, if you have access to a volt meter make sure you have full voltage to your air compressor motor. A loose connection can cause low voltage which will also show up as the symptons you describe.

Thanks for all the help, I am heading out right now (8 am saterday) to see what I can hook onto. To answar some of the questions, the pond was like this last year too. There is dry land corn on 2 sides of the pond but I dont think any run off can get to the pond, its built with high banks and an overflow tube.
We did have trouble with suspended clay early on as it was difficult to get plant growth on the edges and the entire area was escavated during pond construction so when it would rain lots of dirt would enter the pond. I will do the jar test to see if thats still a problem.
The pump is back going again and the voltage might be a good idea to check as it runs on 200 ft of cord, as it has for 2yrs but a bad connection is possible.
Since the second stocking I have seen only one fish (BG) dead at the side of the pond and that was last fall. So would I be correct to say that if I was losing fish at this time I would find them floating at the edge??????

Well, I set a bobber with a worm and took to walking the banks casting a spinner bait. After an hour or so I made it around the pond without a bite. Checked the bobber, (it was under of coarse) had another baby cat fish. If I was going for a great cat fish pond I would say Im there. Its very easy to catch them, you will either get a baby cat or more likely a 2 pounder + or - a little.
The heavy brown color that was there thursday is gone? I filled a quart jar that im looking at right now. It has a hint of green but for the most part its just cloudy. You cant see thru it but if you hold your hand up to one side you can make out the color of your skin. We will see if anything settles to the bottom and I will post the results tomarrow.

From all the info I have recieved over the past heres my thinking, Ill make a case both ways.

The BG and LMBs have to be in there because:
1. They were stocked twice.
2. There has never been one dead floating at the bank.
3. The cats are thriving, they have to be eating somthing.
4. Just cant catch them since the water clarity is so bad.
5. cat fish, frogs, snails & minnows do well in the pond so the BG and LMB should too.

The BG and LMB cant be in there because:

1. Cant catch them.
2. Never see the LMB jump like others do in there pond.
3. Never see them at the surface.
4. They all died and instead of floating they just sank to the bottom.
5. If the BG and LMB were in there they would have finished off the minnow population long ago.

Which is it??????????

you are rushing things,let the water get wright and fish will bite,it takes time.i believe 100% your fish are in the pond.i've wrote 20 times on this site with my lake,can't catch a bass.when the water clears you will start catching them.i think(no pro )you are rushing things.i've caught more bass in the past 6 weeks than i have in the past 2 1/2 years out of my lake.guess what!!!my water was allways a off muddy color.my water finally got about 12"of vis. and the bite got 100 times better.i've added on too my pond several times over the last year and just when the water was getting fair i would flood the new section and the water would get off color and guess what 12 months of poor bass fishing.

Mike - I'd echo most, if not all of what Ric has stated. You're heading toward a train wreck (with a dip net and shovel in hand) if you don't get sufficient aeration going - and soon!
Also, based on your statements, I'd avoid any further advice from the fish hatchery guy. 1) grass carp don't seem to be a solution for any of the problems you've listed. 2) Pond dye is the LAST thing you'd want to add to your pond right now - make that the second-last thing - don't put any copper-based products in there or you could crash your excessive bloom and DO level, which as also what a lake dye could do (as the algae can absorb the pigment and die as a results). 3) DO NOT FERTILIZE! Your excessive bloom - probably a blue-green algae ("pea soup") - is an obvious indication that your pond already contains more than enough nutrients. 4) LMB are more sensitive to low O2 levels than catfish. I went to Pike Peak last summer. Now I know how a LMB feels when O2 is a problem. I could hardly walk around, much less enjoy myself (the TX Coast does't prepare one for such environments). Bass are quite capable of feeding in murky water. They possess sensory nerves along their lateral line that help them detect their prey - and many lures. But, they won't expend their energy if they're oxygen-stressed. 5) As already stated, "green to brown" is definitely NOT a good sign. Your algae population is crashing, and will likely take the DO with it - if it hasn't already done so.
At this point, I'd stay focused on getting the pond aerated and hopefully avoid a total fish-kill. Forget the CUTRINE (which, btw, is quite a bit different than copper sulfate) and the lake dye, at least for now. Once you've (hopefully) avoided an O2 disaster, you might consider steps to gradually reduce your bloom to more stable levels.

Thanks for the replies, Lee I hope your right!
Kelly, controling the bloom is what I have been trying to do for 2 years. To make sure you understand, this pond has never been fertilized and has had an air pump going almost non stop since 2002. The heavy bloom comes and goes and I have seen this green to brown situation before. As I said a couple posts back, the brown color is gone now. The quart sample I took this morning has a Slightly green tint too it but is mostly just cloudy (you cant see thru it)
The only other thing I did was last year. I put in 3 gallons of somthing from TSC for algea control, dont remember what it was called.
So you dont think the low visibility is the problem with catching BG and LMBs? Do you think they are already gone and just sunk to the bottom? Anything else I can do?

Thanks for the help

If you've seen the green-to-brown situation before, you may have lost some/most/all of your LMB during one of the previous crashes. Are you certain that such was not the case?

There's no telling what the stuff was from TSC. They used to carry CUTRINE PLUS down here, then switched to a cheaper/inferior algaecide - but "forgot" to reduce their selling price....

Aerators significantly reduce the potential for oxygen problems. However, the operative word is "reduce" - not "prevent". Warm water is less capable of holding dissolved oxygen than cool water. I don't know your water-temps up there, but (inadequately) aerated ponds can suffer from oxygen difficiencies in warm weather when coupled with a catastrophic algae or plant-biomass crash; same as a bank account that has more withdrawals than offsetting deposits.

Certain ? no way to be sure but the only time we have found floating fish was in the fall of 2002 a few months after the first stocking? Where else would they be? We do get a nice bloom but Im starting to wonder if the bloom has anything to do with the clarity?

Mike,
You're in good hands with Kelly. He knows what he's talking about.
Kelly,
Thanks for the help I was over my head.

Your previous descriptions lead me to believe that the bloom-level is dictating your water's clarity. If turbidity was an issue (muddy water), you probably wouldn't see the green/brown/clear cycles.

A good phytoplankon bloom is generally desired. However, I think it might be the excessive blooms that are causing the cycle-effect.

Do I have enough aeration? I cant answar. The pond is 5/8 to 3/4 acres in size, 9 ft at deepest, averages about 4ft. aerator is located in about 5ft of water towards one end of this kidney shaped pond.
Perhaps when I look at the jar tomarrow that will shed some light to the clarity problem. I will post the results.

Just want to say thanks to all who post to help with my problem.......THANK YOU!!!

Thanks, just so were on the same page, the bloom does come and go and it does effect clarity but the water never gets anywhere near the recomended 18-24 clarity level. Probably 7-10 inches at best.

Mike
I'm not a graduate of fish-stocking school - nor fishery management in general. However, after reviewing your original post, I would question the stocking of that many LMB in a 3/4 ac pond.

LMB are better utilized in larger ponds. Catfish are probably a better bet for your situation.
Also, did you frequently and regularly visit your pond after the original stockings? Every couple of days? Weekly? Monthly? Depending on the regularity of your visits, fish kills could have occured and gone unnoticed due the the efficiency in which nature can clean up the mess.

Kelly, would it be of any benifit it he moved the difuser to the deepest part of the pond?

Ric - without any further information, I'd be hesitant to make that call.

If non-oxygenated water from the deeper areas is rapidly mixed with questionably-oxygenated surface water, the entire pond could be rendered into a homogenous mixture of insufficiently-oxygenated water (below the tolerance of fish).

I received four calls from clients this week reporting fish-kills - each asking "why?". The kills all appeared to be oxygen-related, but there were too many variables involved to absolutely determine the triggers. However, I believe that phytoplankton-crashes played a role in each case (along with water temps).

NOTE: none of the ponds were aerated.... two had been treated for vegetation control, but not enough time had lapsed for the herbicide to cause ANY plant mortality.... one pond had a lake dye (of unknown type) added to it the day before the fish-kill.... we had a very calm and VERY HOT Memorial Day down here.

I was out fishing for a while. During the summer months were out there quite a bit. during the winter, not so much, Anything is possible there but I must say Im doubting whether a major kill went unnoticed.
I dont see it in the jar sample I took this morning but when you look in the pond it looks as though there is clouds in the water, this is what is limiting the visibility. Dont know how to explain it better.
As I said in an earlier post my son hooked onto a bass last weekend, he lost it at shore but he says it was in the 2lb range. This afternoon he was out in his chest waders and says he saw a baby LMB at the top along the shore. He probably knows more about fishing at this point than I do and theres not much bs too him so I do believe him. What that means I dont know.
As I was bobber fishing the shallow north end (2-4ft) I hooked onto 4-5 more baby cats and one more small blue gill. I think they are using this end as a spawning bed.
Without a dought this pond is full of cat fish and they have spawned. About your question on too many fish for the pond, The initial stocking was done by my hatcheries recomendation. The second stocking last year was done because we couldnt catch the BG and LMB, (sound familiar) If they are all in there,
we are over stocked for sure, but that gets us back to where we started. Are the fish gone and I need to re-stock or are they in there and were not catching them due too drastically reduced visibility??? Thats the million dollar question??
Thanks, Mike

Mike

What do you think the chances that someone might be fishing your lake while you are not out there to keep watch? It wouldnt take much fishing to put a large dent in a small fishing pond! I found someone was helping themselves to my fish during the week. (I was only there on weekends). Just a thought.

Don Stuart

No chance of that, The pond is 250 ft. from my home and I have 3 great danes that would have a fit if somone was out here during the night. At least they would let us know.

Mike,
In 2002 you stocked 350 bg 70 cats & 70 lmb.
For some reason you thought the fish were no longer there & in 2003 you again stocked 350 bg 100 lmb & 100 cats. Now you are wondering if they are all gone. (at least all but the cats & possibly 1, 2 lb bass & baby bass )
You had pea soup last year.
You have pea soup this year.
Pea soup is bad .. causes fish kills. This point is not speculation it is fact.
Now, some of your fish may have survived, but if most had you should be bass heavy & bg heavy & both should be easy to catch.
If you do not do whatever it takes to increase vis. in your pond to a min. of 12" & do whatever it takes to keep it above 12" it is very likely you will continue this pattern next year. IMHO your fish are already gone.

Mike - I removed a nasty insinuation from my earlier post, which asked where the stocking recommendation orginated (though I already knew).
For future reference, would you dare post the name of the hatchery?

Now, I'll step out on a concept that I never encounter down here: winter ice-overs. Has your pond iced-over during the past two winters (since fish stocking)? If so, I think that could be part of the mystery - but would prefer that someone from the northern regions comment on my speculation.

you would think if you had a fish kill , you would find dead fish floating , either winter or summer time. i,m back at the pond couple times a day , when a fish dies , i find it floating. sure few die you don't see , a few.

What if the dead fish were floating under ice, but sank before the ice thawed?

i never had winter fish kill , but my neighbor did. he lost alot big bass and cats , after ice out they where floating. maybe the ice and cold water plays into it. they don't decompose.

We are in south central nebraska, ponds do freeze over here, however this pond has always had an aerator in it to keep 20ft diameter hole in it. Thinking back, it was late fall of 2002 and I walked down to the pond in the early am. I saw lots of fish coming to the surface and appeared to be trying to breathe. I checked with the hatchery, (willow lake) And He instantly had an aerator shipped directly too me. I monitored the pond closely during this time.
This aereator has run ever since with the exception of a few times when I forgot to pull the cord down there after mowing (2-4 days)
Kelly when your questioning the stocking rate, Do you feel I was overstocked both times or are you looking at the total over the 2yrs?

Onto the clarity,... Yes I have too find a way to clear up this pond. The quart sample I took yesterday morning is in front of me again. I would say it is only slightly clearer, There is a small amount of grean speckles at the bottom of the jar, No where near enough to cover the bottom, just some around the bottom edge??
I hope this sheds more light, I greatly appreciate all your help!!!!!

PS. I was out there last nite bobber fishing in the shallows (bass fishing is no good and I know theres plenty of big cats) so im trying to get an idea of what the small ones are. I easily caught several more baby cats and one more very small blue gill (about 3-4in.)

Ken, I also have assumed if there was a fish kill you would find them floating and since I have not since the fall of 2002 when I found 20-30 cats and BGs and one blue gill shortly after the 2003 stocking I assumed they are in there. So I have been asking around for 2 yrs whether all dead fish will float, sink or a combination and I dont think I have ever recieved an absolute answar? If I have had a major fish kill and the dead fish indead all float then I dont think I had one but thats the million dollar question?
I have also thought about prediters eating the dead fish but with the pond semi close to the house we get very little wild birds landing on the pond. I have seen a blue heron I believe once or twice a year for the last 2yrs. you can see most of the pond from the house and I always scare them off.
Is there a way to post a picture here? Would that be helpfull??

Here’s one way to post pictures on this site, though there may be other methods available. Go to http://www.photobucket.com/ ; which is a free site upon which to store photos that will be made available to web-viewers. After registering, you will be shown how to upload photos into the site’s “bucket” – which is unique to the registered user. Each photo will be assigned a URL address. That URL address may then be referenced (pasted) into your posts on public boards, which readers can click to view the specifically targeted photo.

If you saw fish hitting the surface in search of O2, I don’t think you’d have 1 or 2 days to get an aerator going. As for the jar-sample, it probably isn’t replicating or paralleling what is currently occurring in your pond’s larger environment (temperature, sunlight and O2 variables).

I don’t know the answer to whether all dead fish float. Certainly, the ones that we usually see are floating – usually caused by distended swim-bladders or due to internal gases that form when decomposition occurs (or during digestive processes – I hate it when that happens!!)

Again, I have no direct experience with this theory, but I'd question whether dead/floating fish would remain isolated to a 20’ opening in the ice created by bottom-diffusers. My theory is that the mushroom-effect of water-movement could push them along, under the ice, to the outer perimeter of the pond – where their buoyancy would prevent them from following the under-current back to the central area of the pond. If so, what happens to them at the pond’s perimeter is still a mystery. Would they decompose and sink over time? Would scavengers get them immediately when the ice thawed? I don’t know.

Hey, I may be way off-base here (which is often the case when folks speculate about matters outside of their geographical or personal experience). But, everything you described sounded like a classic recipe for an oxygen crash. Now, the question is, IF an O2 crash occurred, what happened to the fish?

I don’t think you mentioned the sizes for the LMB that were stocked – on either occasion. Assuming the first round of bass died, yet some or most of the cats (1.5 lb.) survived – is it possible that the surviving cats might have made a meal out of the second stocking of bass?

That’s a lot of guessing and theories on my part. Bottom line: you need to find out if there are any/many bass still in the pond – somehow. What about doing a gill-net survey, temporarily, to see if any bass are collected? I’ve never gill-netted bass, but assume they can be collected in such manner – and returned unharmed if the net is checked frequently. Maybe the hatchery might provide some accurate guidance on this question - ??.

Speaking of: I’d do some more checking around on LMB stocking recommendations for ponds of your size. Due to their inherent nature, and relatively inefficient forage-to-body-weight conversion capabilities, bass are not considered well suited for small ponds – especially at high stocking densities. What are high stocking rates? Again, check with other qualified sources. But, 100-170 LMB in a ¾ acre pond sounds very excessive to me – particularly when the pond is co-inhabited by that many catfish.

Kelly, Im with you I dont think dead fish would find there way to the 20 ft hole during the winter. So upon thaw they will either be floating on the edge or have sunk.
Is there testing labs that are used for checking for pond water problems (clarity) that could advise based on fact and not speculation?? I know that there is a wards lab nearby that tested our soil core samples before pond construction.
I monitored the pond closely after I found the fish sucking for air till the time the pump was installed and I dont believe we lost any at that time. As soon as the sun would come up they would seem fine again, it was just at day break after no sun for several hours.
Are you speaking of some sort of net? Can these be purchased at cabelas?? Thanks

Forgot to talk about the sizes. Most of my reciepts dont tell the sizes but I will tell you what I know. The first stocking was on 5-20-02, 70 cats 350 BG and minnows. sizes are not listed but they were of the very small size 1-2in on the BG and 3-4 on the cats.
Second stocking was on 8-27-02 , 70 bass, again no size listed but we waited till august to allow the forage fish to have a chance to grow at the hatcheries advise.
The following year after finding some dead fish after a partial kill (no dead bass were found) in the late fall of 02 we waited and did some fishing the next spring and summer and came to the conclusion that the bass and BG were gone and I know we lost some cats. So on 8-18-03 we stocked 350 3-4in BG, 100 3-4in LMB and 100 4-6 in cats. He said these sizes would keep them from being eated by whats left in there.
My final reciept shows the 10 Carp that were put in on 6-3-04

Sorry, I don't know of anyone in your area to test pond water chemistry/nutrients. But, I did a quick search and found this dept at the UNL ( http://waterscience.unl.edu/ ). They may be able to offer some suggestions or testing labs.

As for the LMB stocking-sizes: if they can fit in a catfish's mouth, they will be eaten. Even if they won't fit, a cat may still try to eat 'em. I've found dead catfish with forage fish lodged in their mouths. Their confidence sometimes overloads their throat.

In my opinion, the 3-4" LMB were too small to stock in a pond that had 1 - 1.5 lb. cats.

Found a bookmarked website today showing what I used last year in an attempt to clear my water. Brand name is Crystal blue, product I used was 3 gallons of crytal plex,(chelated copper) I dont recall any significant results.
The other algae product they offer is copper sulfate crystols, would this be any better.
Using there algae identifier, I no doubt have Planktonic algea in a bad way.
Anyone have any experience with these products and know how to apply them, they talk about using a boat which we dont have.
I have to get this pond clear but I believe these products are also harmful to fish eggs, any recomendations???......Thanks

Crystal-Plex is the product to which I refered earlier (~TSC). Not as good as CUTRINE, in my opinion.

Stay away from copper sulfate. It does work, if only temporarily, as an algaecide. But, the short duration of algaecidal activity and the fate of the excess copper in your pond are two big strikes against it. Stick with a chelated copper algaecide - if one is used at all.

I would come closer to suggesting a microbial treatment for your pond, to help reduce the availability of nutrients that are fueling the excessive algae (instead of simply recycling the nutrients with repeated copper treatments). However, regardless of the method used to reduce the algae population, you'll need to be ever mindful of your pond's DO level.

Mike, you might check back with TSC--they do carry Cutrine here, now, but didn't for a year or so.

When you say you used three gallons of CP, it sounds like you are just glugging it out of the bottle into the water. I don't wonder that you didn't see much results. I dilute it and spray it on the algae, which I think is the recommended method; it is (almost) fun because it kills filamentous algae almost on contact and paddling around with a kayak the next day just dissolves it; of course, as Kelly points out, that does not eliminate the nutrient load in the water. In terms of spray methods, if things aren't too intense I use a backpack sprayer but sometimes I use a 12-volt sprayer on the tractor. If that doesn't have enough reach to cover your pond, you might consider a small, gas-powered pump (Homelite makes a decent one which TSC used to sell, and Honda makes a terrific 4-cycle model). You still have to have a stock tank or some such to use for diluting the product; TSC sells a 100-gallon one for about $80 or so. Finally, if you have a ton of algae to kill you must do the pond in sections, a week or so at a time, or you will add so much decaying mass to the water that it will deplete oxygen. Finally, I don't think that Cutrine will kill fish eggs or fry, but I don't know that for sure. I am pretty sure you can find the MSDS sheet on the web.

Also like Kelly, we use beneficial microbes to soak up nutrient load; you can actually watch 'em work on the surface stuff, and they do an amazing geometric population explosion which results consumption of considerable nutrient.

I also have several of a product called Aqua Mats, which are a sort of manufactured algae magnet--go to aquamats.com if you're interested. I am hesitant to recommend them because they are expensive and are not a silver bullet, but I do think that they help if you can stomach the expense.

We use our pond for swimming, and so I push the algae all the way back a time or two a year with Cutrine. We add microbes weekly and I also wad the stuff up if I run into it while swimming, and then add it to the compost bin or, sometimes, use it for mulch.

You've certainly gotten a passel of advice; I hope your head doesn't explode before you figure out some strategies which work for you. Good luck and best wishes!!

Thanks for the replies, anyone one know if the fish net kelly was talking about are available through sporting goods stores, like cabelas? something special too them.
I have an atv mounted 12 volt sprayer along with a hand pump, (that sounds time consuming) Do you need to mist onto every square inch of the pond? Niether one of these will even come close to the middle.
Last year I had a great idea and brought out my 3200 psi 4gpm power washer, when you set it to low pressure it will suck the chemical out of the jug mixing it automaticly but that still did not reach far so I drove around in the paddle boat dumping a little here and there. Guess that was wrong.
Do I want the areator on or off during this application? If so how long?
Speaking of areators, mine just crashed (not good with what I have going on) Upon checking the amp draw I pulled the manual for it to see if I could just buy the motor portion of it and saw in the blow-up that there is a part missing, THE COOLING FAN was left off in the factory! Its out of warranty but I sent it into them anyway. I predict a long wait, so has anyone ever tried a regular shop type commpressor to get them by. It would probably start and stop and the pressure would vary, thats if it would even keep up???

I was just on an old post in another forum and they mentioned cultine in a granular form. This sounds easier to apply to me? Keep in mind that my algea is planktonic, I have very litte surface algea, just algea suspended in the water?

Mike--I realized I gave some bad, or at least incomplete, advice--when you stand jars of water to determine whether you have clay in suspension, you need to add some alum, available at drugstores, to the water in one of the jars to see if it clarifies at a different rate than the other. If it does, you have suspension and could benefit from aluminum sulfate. I'm sorry, and I hope you're making progress on your various battle fronts!!

I have a feeder on one pond, and I feed the fish in front of my house by hand every morning. But it takes some time for them to get used to the time and place (couple of weeks?). The ponds get muddy during the rainy seasons, but I can tell the kind of fish by the way they hit the pellets.

When I was worried about my fish being gone, I bought a minnow trap and 3'x3' seine from Academy. I never cought many minnows in the trap, but I cought plenty of mosquito fish, green sunfish and bluegill up to 2". I always seem to have better luck with the seine, with some bread tied to the mesh in the middle. I have better luck closer to the shore, with shorter, stiffer stick, when I can pull it out faster.

I hope this helps. I am going to try the flashlite at night method this weekend.

Talked to a gal at the USDA office the other day, she couldnt help me in the area I need and refered me to a person at the game and parks office. After having a long talk with him im convinced that I have suspended clay causing the bulk of my very low visibility problems and he said my LMB and blue gill would not do good in those conditions.
Unfortanatly, he cant help farther as he cant do private waters. He referred me on to someone at the university that could help with the water clarity issues but this person doesnt look like he is going to return my call.
I dont really know where to turn. The water issues need to be resolved before I worry about where my bass and bg are. I wish there were somebody local that could be hired to come look at the pond ,test the water and tell me what to do. Im going to call a local lab next but I was told that without being able to tell them what to test for I would be shooting in the dark. Any Ideas?

Just called the local lab and described the problem and they said they couldnt help. I then asked if they could check for PH and alkilinity and of coarse they can do that. I could probably check those things with my pool test kit (liquid chemical type) but wouldnt know what to do with the results anyway..........I need an expert.

just a rookie at this.......but did you try the county extension office for help??

Lots if info on this website about clearing muddy water. Do a search. In short, you need to add lime or gypsum depending on your PH. Easy test, get some jars, fill them with pond water, and see which works to clear your water, lime or gypsum. Then toss a couple of sacks worth into your pond. If it is not clear in a week, toss in a couple more sacks worth.