Pond Boss
Posted By: Torchy How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 01:43 PM
Morning All !

In 2002 I completly drained my pond...DRY !...the pond refilled over the course of a month or so and was not stocked due to my Iraqi deployment...November of 2003 I stocked with 800 Coppernose and 400 Shellcrackers...this spring I started feeding 32% floating food...noticed Bullheads feeding and balls of Bullhead fry, lots of them ! Yesterday I flyfished trying to catch one or two of the Coppernose to see how they were faring...caught a &*%$ Green sunfish about 7 inches long ! My pond is apprx 1 acre right now and is not fed by any flowing water...ie, these fish could not have come from an outside water source...so, how did this happen, drained dry, no fish or any other life for at least two weeks and not stocked with these species...but have two species (Bullhead and "Greenie") that I don't desire ! BTW, not picking on these species, I just don't want them in my pond...any thoughts or suggestions out there on this ?

Torchy
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 01:45 PM
Forgot to add...I caught 3 Bullheads on the fly rod...they were all 8 to 10 inches long and fat as a butterball !
Posted By: Dave Davidson Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 02:56 PM
Sounds like you had help stocking while you were out of town for awhile. It is possible that a hatchery could mix some bad fish with the good but they wouldn't grow to 8 or 10 inches in that short amount of time. Keep your mouth shut and most likely someone will tell you about the favor they did while you were gone.
Posted By: lee Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 03:02 PM
torchy,i have the same problem with my 4 1/2 acre pond in south louisiana.no creek,no ditchs just rain water.i can tell you what i was told by the wildlife & fisheries people,birds have eggs in there feathers and when they visit your pond they drop in your water and some birds eat eggs and pass them threw there system and say still make it.hard to believe but i guess it's possible.i've talked to a couple people about this and i keep getting the same answers.it's pretty common for my pond to have 1 are 2 big white birds around the pond and often i have wild ducks come in and stay for several days.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 05:10 PM
Thanks for the replies...

Gotta assume the bird theory is the culprit...the pond is off the road outta sight...never had anybody on or around it...I live on the property and it's relatively isolated from neighbors and never had anybody ask to fish it...will still take advice and stay mum to see if anybody fesses up though...guess I gotta put my 9 year old to work weeding out Bullheads and I'll work the "Greenies" over with a fly rod all summer...sure was frustrating to find them after all I went through to eradicate and start over...oh well, guess that comes with the amateur Pond Meister gig ! Anybody want some free "Greenies" and Bullheads ? \:\)
Posted By: BrianH Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 06:00 PM
Torchy, what do you mean by not any flowing water. Do you fill it by well? Just because you don't have any water flowing in doesn't mean the trash fish aren't swimming upstream when the pond overflows. In my opinion, that is the most common way they enter. I found a green sunfish lying in a coastal field after a rain (which was wide and shallow during the rain) a half mile from a pond.
I'm not an expert by any means but I'm not sold on the bird and egg theory unless ponds are close together.
I have one pond that is close to a live creek and in four years it overflowed one winter when fish aren't active and I don't have any trash fish. I have another pond that doesn't overflow at all and in three years not a single trash fish.
Your pond being that new means that birds would have carried at least one male and female of two different species that lived to grow and reproduce. That's four fish in the first year.

Does anyone else have any ponds with unwanted species that are filled by well and no outflow and no helpful neighbors?
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 06:21 PM
No flowing water...ie...there's not a pond or year 'round water source within roughly 2 miles of my pond...the overflow goes off the property into a mixed hardwood/pine forest with no standing water anywhere...although I "killed" the pond by draining it and letting it bake in the Louisiana August sun, it was actually excavated about 10 years ago...the water source to keep it full is a combo of rain run off from 50+ acres and high water table in the spring...no well or other constant water source...so I'm left with the "helpfull" neighbor or the bird drop off...I think \:\) ...BTW, want some free Bullheads ? \:\)

Thanks,
Torchy
Posted By: Rangersedge Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 06:40 PM
Torchy: FWIW: I have a brochure from the NRCS or state or something that states that these mysterious fish stockings can virtually always be traced back to a two legged non feathered "friend" helping you stock your pond. Jeff
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 06:44 PM
Going from my experience (which granted is not scientific), I agree with Brian. I have three ponds that are probably as much as 50 years old and they do not have a single trash fish in them. I have a newly constructed pond which I stocked with coppernose BG and it has the evil greenies. In my case, it wasn't birds that put them there, it was the fish hatchery I bought the coppernose BG from.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 07:17 PM
I was there when they put the fish in during the stocking...didn't examine individual fish, however they were all 1"-3"...is it possible for a "greenie" that size to grow to the 7" range from November to mid April ?...if so, I may end up liking the &^%$ things after all !...Just kidding, still wanna get 'em out...BTW, didn't feed on a regular basis until mid March...

T
Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 08:46 PM
I'm with Rangersedge,
Another possibility is someone fishing your pond in your absence not knowing it wasn't stocked. They could have used greenies & bulls for bait.
Posted By: Rangersedge Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 10:43 PM
A friend at work built a 3.5 acre pond and stocked it last year with bluegill and largemouth. They've been catching decent sized rock bass this spring and wondering if the hatchery that the NCRS office used could have messed up. I didn't think that likely, but... This spring, they've also caught some bass up to 11 inches. I'm thinking I'm not sure, but it may be possible and suggested they post on this site with all the details. Then most recently, they caught a 19 inch bass. Time out. That did it. Forget the hatchery mistake and superfish genetics. Someone had to have "helped" stock their pond for them. I'm still betting someone likewise "helped" stock your pond for you. I'm hoping no one "helps" stock my pond for me.
Posted By: Rangersedge Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 10:46 PM
Forgot a couple points. Their pond is at the edge of their yard behind their house and there is no way fish could naturally get into their pond via drainage from either above or below.
Posted By: ken Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/22/04 11:34 PM
my neighbor put in a 1/3 arce pond, in the middle of a passture , for the cows to drink from . he never stocked the pond and has tons of emerald shinners and bluegills in it. i put in 6-8" bass last year from my pond, i bet there happy now lol \:\)
Posted By: green head Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 12:58 AM
Torchy, tough situation. The bullhead balls should be pretty easy to catch out with a net or to seine them out. You'll probably never get them all, but it's a start. Bass love small bullheads before they get their hard pectoral and dorsal spines, plus they're easy for them to catch. If you don't have any bass in the pond it's an option. How big is your pond and what type of pond are you wanting(large sunfish, combo, easy fishing etc.) You also could run trot lines in your pond. Just bait it and lay it along the bottom. You could even use your greenies as bait. Unfortunately these are 2 very difficult species to eradicate without chemicals or draining again, but even then...there is still a chance that a couple could survive. Were those fish present in the pond before it was drained? I always find the bird theory very difficult to believe due to the make-up of fish eggs. The bird would have to be extremely quick to make it from point A to point B without the thin membrane walls drying out. Most of the birds are wading birds only going out as deep as their legs are long(not getting their feathers wet often) mostly leaving only their legs exposed. So if the eggs were on the bird, they would most likely be on the legs which would not keep the eggs moist if they managed to stick to the feet during flight at all. In my opinion the odds of one egg surviving and making it into your pond and hatching are pretty remarkable not to mention how many eggs would have to survive in order to have the number of fish you have in such a relatively short period of time. Does your fish dealer even raise greenies and/or bullheads? If not, you could eliminate that option. Best of luck to you. If you solve the mystery let us know.
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 02:10 AM
I first noticed the cloud of baby bulheads last year and I am sure the first ones were brought in by the birds.

The big differences between ponds that get stocked by our feathered and the ones that don't are what is stocked initially, distance to other water sources, and how many birds visit how often. We have many birds coming and going on a regular basis and many ponds within a few miles. Most of the local pond owners have species they didn't stock. I also had a bad fish kill 2 winters ago and I am just restocking bass now.

If I was in an area with less bird traffic, greater distance to other waters or was stocked heavily with bass the babies either wouldn't have arrived or would have been eaten before I saw them.
Posted By: Zach Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 02:14 AM
Let me tell you of an example what happened to my pond. My pond ran around about 3 inches deep over a dam that drops down a foot. It runs down a road until it gets to a creek a 100 yards away. the creek is in brush and shurbs so thick animals can hardly make it through. The first thing i noticed was mousquito fish swimming around the pond. I was amazed how in the world did they get in there. Next spring about early may i looked in the water and it appeared to be fingerling bass. So i went home and got the castnet. I threw it out over the fish. Amazingly it was largemouth bass! Not only did i catch that in my net but i caught shad, silver shinners, white crappie, bluegill, greenies, longears, warmouth, bullheads, and carp. These fish were to large to be stocked over by birds or people during the winter. The only way the fish could have got in is by jumping over the dam or coming over the other side where it ran around about 2 feet wide and 4 inches deep. I couldnt belive this until the next fall when we 16inches of rain. We were driving down the county road and look at the ditch which was a foot by a foot and saw carp up to a pound and gizzard shad up to 9inches long swimming up the thing. This water was coming from the neighbors pond that was running around and they swam up in it. Oh yea forgot to mention that my pond had been dry so long it had mesquite trees growing in it.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 01:57 PM
Like other people, I've had this problem also. Here's my count down on ways I think this could happen.

4) Birds carrying fish eggs from pond to pond. So unlikely that the chances of this occuring approach zero. I hope that some biologist jumps in and explains why this is true.

3) Other species mixed in with the fish we buy. Unfortunately this is more common than we would like to believe. There is a wide difference in the care different fish dealers take in making sure all of their fish are what they say they are. I have often bought minnows with small bullheads mixed in with them.

2) Fish swimming upstream and getting into our lakes. Very common. All it takes is one big rain or snow melt.

1) Someone has done a favor unto us. Happens all the time. Sometimes to hurt us, sometimes without thinking and sometimes to "help" improve our fishing. When we first started our lake in 2000, we started to catch 8-10" bullheads. Obviously, I didn't put them in.

The issue isn't how they get into our lakes but what we do about it. Bob Lusk wrote an outstanding comment about how he was able to manage green sunfish populations. I think it applies to bullheads, crappie and about anything else.

This is the method he used. First, he established a good bluegill population. Then he over stocked larger LMB. LMB will eat green sunfish before bluegills. Because of their shape, green sunfish go down easier. LMB can easily eat a mass of young bullheads also. A person can combine this with removal of adults.

In our case, we are overstock with predators. Although we initially stocked as many green sunfish as bluegills, we seldom see a green sunfish now. Bullheads have never become established.

I hope these comments help.
Posted By: Dave Davidson Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 05:41 PM
Norm, I'm certainly not a Biologist but also can't credit birds with stocking ponds.

Fish eggs are too slick and slimy to stick to a birds feathers or feet. However, if they did, they would almost certainly dry out while being hauled through the air. Ok, lets say they got to the new pond in some sort of viable condition. Most game fish eggs are necessarily fanned and thus aerated by a parent. The parent also keeps them from becoming covered by silt. The only exception I know of are eggs that are laid in running water. We don't have any of that in a pond. Next, the parent usually guards the young fry from opportunistic predators. We ain't got that either. If they survive early predation, they have to worry about all kinds of predators. I once read that a 5 lb. largemouth has beaten over 10,000 to 1 odds.

On the other hand, I once told Bob Lusk that I would like to get some mosquito fish. He said don't bother buying them. I would probably get them anyway. How? He said he didn't know. Hey, maybe the stork does bring babies.
Posted By: Pottsy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 08:28 PM
One means by which birds can introduce undesired, (Or desired for that matter), species is being overlooked. Some water birds that prey on fish, frogs, etc. regurgitate their food or undigestible bits. Just as it is known to be the source of some snail relocation, (Or parasite spread through their feces), it could also serve as a means by which other species get relocated. Again with all bird related theories... chances are slim, but there is a chance.

So it isn't totally unreasonable to assume there is at least some chance of viable eggs or fingerlings making it into a 'new' pond on behalf of our feathered friends/enemies.

But as discussed in previous posts... there is only so many ways adult or slightly sub-adult fish can get there.
Posted By: Chris Shrader Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 04/23/04 10:25 PM
I don't have an answer to any of the questions posted or even any suggestions but think about this. All of the primary species listed are extremely hardy: catfish, greenies. These fish are survivors. When the going gets tough there the last to be gone. So whether its in the form of birds transplanting eggs or regurgitating the fish itself, who knows. They could have swim upstream, or maybe even underground springs that no one else knows about. I think most of the time nature is more in control than we realize.

Chris
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/07/04 02:29 PM
Went fly fishing down at the pond...as I mentioned in previous posts there are still bullheads and "greenies" in big numbers...an update, now catching 4-6 inch golden shiners and have spotted 2 inch long fingerling bass...BTW the shiners really like the mosquito pattern fly!! Still trying to figure out how they got in the pond...pretty much ruled out "help" and there's not a chance of them coming in from and outside water source...so, I'm left with the stork method, a fish rain, spontaneous combustion or a perpetual puzzle...at any rate, I think I'll proceed with trapping and the 9 year old catch and toss method !...will not remove the shiners, just "greenies" and bullheads...
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/09/04 03:28 AM
I have so many bullheads they are keeping the clay stirred up in the pond. It was crystal clear last summer. I caught over 200 this past week and only 2 were big enough not to be born last year. I stocked heavy on bass and am fishing heavily for the adults.
Posted By: Nick Smith Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/15/04 01:03 AM
Being raised on a ranch, in rancing / farming country, I have seen many small stock ponds dug and never be stocked. "Just so the cows can drink." Most are filled by runoff, no chance of fish swimming in to them. Yet they all end up with fish. Usually not a desirable species. Mostly green perch and what we call mudcat. Sometimes bass appear.

Nobody stocked them. There is no swimming from another pond. Leaves the only chance for it to happen to be birds. Or I heard once that fish eggs can evaporate from one pond and enter another pond via rain. Didnt believe that one.

So im left just supposing that the God who designed it all wanted fish in the ponds. So He devised a way for them to get there.

Then we could discuss how the pond weeds get transferred into new ponds!
Posted By: Dave Davidson Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/16/04 12:14 PM
Nick, I guess that differences of opinion is why we have horse races. Ain't no way I'm going to believe that fish eggs can overcome the incredibly impossible odds needed to go from one pond to another and establish a population.

However, I also don't play the lottery. I heard a 'theory' the other day concerning lottery odds. It said that if you 'invested' $100 per week starting at age 18 and played until you were 75, you would have one chance in 100 of winning the jackpot. Tonights Texas lottery is in excess of $120,000,000. Somebody will win. So, long odds can be overcome but I can't believe that it will happen with life of any kind. It probably goes without saying that I don't believe that the stork brings babies.
Posted By: george Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/16/04 02:08 PM
"Nature" brings them in - maybe birds.
Growing up in East Texas more than seventy years ago, I spent summers on my grandparents farm in central Texas.
I learned to swim in stock tanks and got in troulble with my grandmother every time.
Yep - mud cats!!!
Nearest body of water was town lake twenty miles away.
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/18/04 03:10 AM
The idea of birds carrying them on their feet, in their feathers, or in there throats is a lot more plausible to me than evaporation, or super flying fish eggs, or underground springs, or even alien spacecraft that jump from pond to pond spreading the eggs. My best guess if the waterfowl and quite possibly some of the larger game animals that walk into the water while drinking. They can travel a mile in little time at all. We have a lot more wildlife in Wisconsin than in Texas and it is pretty common knowledge that the birds carry the eggs. Next summer I may try to get some eggs to stick to my hand and transport them to another container just to see what happens. 5 minutes would be plenty of time for a bird to move from one body of water to another around here. With all the discusion about bullheads living for 24 hours out of water is it so hard to beleive the eggs could last for an hour under a birds wing?
Posted By: george Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/18/04 09:15 AM
Brian, the shallow stock tanks would very often dry up during periods of summertime drought.
Mudcats could be found in the mud with no water cover.
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/18/04 12:38 PM
We have a 0.5-acre frog pond that is only 4-feet deep that is less than two years old. We put fatheads in last spring, which have done well and multiplied. This Spring we put 250 1-2" redears to grow out until fall so they would not become expensive food for my bass in the other pond. No other fish have been stocked and the pond is land locked. I was looking at it last weekend and was surprised to see a 7-8 inch green sunfish. Had him on a fly twice but lost him and haven't seen him since. He's well fed and fat. I think he was mixed in with the fatheads.
Posted By: Bdavid Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/22/04 01:38 AM
I don’t believe birds transplant fish
When I was a kid I would "help out" ponds by putting fish in them.
I didn’t know any better.
I knew about every pond within 2 square miles of my house it didn’t mater how well it was hidden.
Greens and bullheads are the hardest/ easiest to transplant
I just built a pond and have received several offers to help stock it with everything from bullheads, crappy and even flatheads.
Paybacks a bitch.
Posted By: Bob Koerber Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/22/04 02:24 PM
I was surprised by a sight in my pond. Due to our recent lack of rain I have an area about 30 ft by 30 ft that became separated from the main part of the pond by a mud strip. I noticed something and when I jumped down on the muddy area about 2 ft wide between the 2 parts of the pond I noticed about 50 mosquito fish actually trying to hop from the area that was drying up to the main part of the pond! You just never know how fish will move about.
Posted By: davatsa Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/22/04 04:20 PM
I had always heard that birds transported eggs from one pond to another, but I didn't think that was rational. After spending a lot of time in west/central Texas (Sonora area), I now think it is the idea is more believable. Like others have witnessed, I have seen landlocked ponds with no possible outside entering water source have species of fish that were never stocked. In one case, a rancher friend of mine who owns 15,000 acres laughed at me when I brought a rod & reel, saying that his "tanks" were never stocked. This is a remote area already, and being in the middle of 15,000 acres with no vehicle access (for those not expected) is a tough way for a two-legged friend to help stock a pond. In one tank, I caught over 20 bass 2-5 pounds. In a separate incident, my dad made some money based on the bird theory. He bet another guy that he could catch catfish out of a pond knowing that it had never been stocked with them. Like the rancher, the guy laughed, until about 20 minutes later my dad hooked into a 10 lb. channel. I've seen too many examples lately to negate the bird theory. (These are just 2 of the more humorous ones). Both ponds mentioned were completely landlocked and too remote to get help from outsiders, and in the case of the first pond, it had never been stocked at ALL. The rancher's family have owned the place since the late 1800s and he swears no one has ever put in fish. However, it should be noted that while the area is very remote and the spreads are big, neighboring ponds are close enough that it is feasible that birds may have been the culprit.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/23/04 02:56 AM
Ya,,, like a fish egg or fish fry will be able to survive out of water long enough on a birds foot to be transported across 7,000 acres. Anyone ever tried to hatch a fish egg that has been out of water over 30 seconds?

Secondly almost all fish lay very adhesive eggs. What ever the egg hits after it is laid it adheres strongly to. If the egg by remote chance gets laid on a bird foot how will the bird get it off its foot/leg at the next pond? I don't see many birds flying around with stuff dangling off their feet such as algae or weeds with possible eggs attached. Again dehydration is a huge hurdle to over come.

Fishermen are the most NORTORIOUS fish stockers on this planet. Anywhere anyplace they will find a way to create their own secret fishin hole.
Posted By: Rangersedge Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/23/04 11:12 AM
I've now experienced this phenomena personally. I would have rather not, but...

However they got in there, how is the best way to get them out? Does anyone make a good, solid, long handled, large dipnet with mesh fine enough to capture the inch long catfish?
Posted By: Randy H. Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/23/04 11:31 AM
Rangersedge,
This may sound like a wacky idea, but if you already have a good sized dip net how bout buying a couple of those plastic scrub things that people use in the shower. If you take them apart you will get a 8" tube about 15' long with tiny holes in it. Some creative folding and liberal use of a stapler and you can turn this into a basket of sorts. Take this "basket and staple the edges over the rim of your dip net and bingo you have a dip net with very small holes that you should be able to rein in the 1 inch fish.
Posted By: Ed Richter Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/23/04 02:59 PM
ranger, I got my 3'x3' umbrella seine at Academy. It has about 1/4" holes and you attach it to whatever length pole that you have. I had no trouble catching them.
Posted By: fish Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/23/04 09:08 PM
I wish somebody could explain how my 8 and 9 year old son came home 3 months ago and said they caught frogs,mimmows and 4 bream(about 2 1/2 inches long) in a swimming pool(yes swimming pool)at a house in out neighborhood that had been vacant for 9 months.i don't think we have many people go to the local pool to go fishing.myself and 2 other dad's went to the pool to see for ourself.this pool was in pretty bad shape for lack of use,but it did that the above in it.the new owner said when they cleanned the pool it had thousand's of minnows in it and 2 other fish,he did not know what they were put said they were also about 2-3 inches long.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 02:39 AM
Frogs travel long distances at night during rain events. Presence of fish in the pool is an easy answer. Someone put them in; probably kids. As I said before every fisherman wants his own fishing hole even if it has to be a temorarily abandoned pool. Food source (zooplankton)for all these fish came in with the fish transport water. Newly hatched tadpoles were also no doubt eaten by adult "bream" FYI. Pool chlorine very quickly disipates when it is not frequently renewed.

PS. Many many people call young game fish "minnows". All the minnows in the pool were probably young fingerling bream or sunfish; very probably green sunfish.
Posted By: Bdavid Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 03:09 AM
I would add one exception. I have read some types of zooplankton do come from rain. Do a search you will find research on this. Zooplankton can be found in the guttering of houses after a rain.

About that rancher story an investigation would probably find a hired ranch hand stocked the tanks.
As a kid growing up in the country it was my mission to keep ponds stocked with fish.
I’m sure I surprised many farmers.

This is a lot more fun than talking politics
Posted By: Alabama Woody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 04:07 AM
Possibly God.........or Evolution?
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 04:24 AM
Bill, read the post fully. I am not saying they stick to a birds foot. That would be silly. They stick under the feathers and as some one suggested possibly by regirgitation. Cormorants dive deep and fast and you can't tell me they don't cruise through fish egg batches enough to occasionally get some under their feathers. This is an area that they would be protected from wind and drying out.

I obviously can't prove this theory but it is considered common knowledge in the north. I can assure you no one and I mean absolutely so one visits my pond from the surrounding area except ducks, geese, herons, and occasionally cormorants briefly before I chase them off.

As I can tell so far my bullhead infestation includes only 2 adults. It's not hard to beleive that a few eggs could survive a short flight. Possibly could have been a few very small hatchlings. I have read on this board about bullheads staying alive for a day or 2 out of water. I could run to a pond in either direction from mine in under 2 minutes.

I am open minded and would consider any other possibility that makes sense, but I am absolutely land locked, all stocked fish were screened and were raised in tanks without outside influence, and I can guarantee no one else enters my property. I do however have birds on a daily basis.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 11:12 AM
ok, here's one for you !

5 foot X 20 inch hoop net $50
2 cans of Alpo $2
1 piece of rope with float $2

Bullhead eradication PRICELESS !
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 03:47 PM
Ducks and diving birds have oil on their feathers dispersed by the oil gland near tail. Thus typically water runs off of a duck's back and feathers do not get wet when in water. Water pressure keeps feathers compressed against body. Very difficult to get fisheggs under feathers; plus this area is normally dry!

I will believe regurgitatation before bird transport of eggs or fry.

I remember years back I saw in a journal a scientific study about eggs and fry on bird feathers. I think the results dismissed the idea or I would have saved the article as proof that it occurs. Should have saved it anyway for times like this. .
Posted By: Double-Camp Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 08:59 PM
Gotta jump in on this, for the mystery exists too far, too remote and too often to be so easily answered by notorious midnight plantings of fish by over-zealous humans. I have always been told by old timer pond owners who never ever stocked their fish filled ponds that the ducks eat the fish eggs and out they come undigested. If you ever seen how quick corn goes through a duck or goose, say what you want, but common sense says this is at least one, though maybe not the ONLY way, fish find their way to new waters.
Posted By: Jim Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/24/04 09:19 PM
My pond was 18 years old when I bought my property. It was full of every sort of amphibian, crustacean, insect and reptile imaginable in the area. It had many coots as semi permanent residents and much visiting by ducks, herons and egrets. Much to my surprise, there were NO FISH, NOT ONE. My pond is close to many ponds in the area as well as several creeks and rivers. If ever there was going to be a pond with a spontaneous arrival of fish, this was it. I used to believe the bird myth, but as many of you did I researched it and also could find no proof of it ever happening. The "birds" are ugly flightless things that have buckets attached to their useless wings.
Posted By: Nick Smith Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/25/04 12:12 AM
Interesting post. Lots of opinions. And nobody knows for sure, so that is what makes it interesting.

Double Camp, interesting theory, the eggs go through the digestive system. The grinding action in the gizzard should nullify that, but does all food go through the gizzard?

Here is a thought, what if the eggs are in the fish, when the fish is swallowed by the bird. Thus the eggs are protected from the stomach acids, etc. and are expelled whole into new waters. Hmmm...

What is the saying, "Opinions are like hind-ends. Everybody has got one, and quite a few stink."
Posted By: Bob Lusk Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/27/04 10:20 PM
What a thread! I haven't been on the site in quite a while. This one is amazing. Maybe a story for Pond Boss.
For 25 years I have been in the profession of designing, building, stocking and managing private lakes and ponds. It's a fascinating business, and quite an honor in which to participate.
While much of the biology makes good sense, some of the natural occurrences don't.
Let's throw a little more common sense into the mix of this discussion. Let's say an egg or two make it to another pond via some bird transport device.
The egg must arrive moist, viable, and then come off the leg, feather, beak, butt of a bird. Then, the egg must fall/be placed/end up in a substrate which will allow it to hatch. Then, after it hatches, the fry must avoid being eaten by some giant zooplankter/insect/creature. Then, the fry must go through its stages to maturity, then meet up with another creature of the same species (which went through the same astronomical odds) to mate and begin to create a population.
Not likely.
I have treaded around muddy ponds many times during and after rainfall events.
I have come to the conclusion small fish will travel long distances in relatively shallow flowing water to find a safe home.
I bet, upon further investigation, the Haughton pond in question has a nearby swamp/marsh/creek/pond that has the alledged fish in it, and they made their escape during heavy rains.
It's common to find fish in small mud holes/cattle tracks in a pasture, both above and below a pond, immediately after rainfall.
I can't imagine birds successfully transporting eggs, in their beak, on their legs, or through their parasite ridden intestines.
Fish move through running water.
Now, after that little tirade, I will truthfully tell all that I honestly don't know how it happens, but it does.
One other note...some hatcheries may mix fish, but most don't. They have reputations, and the professional ones don't want that reputation tarnished, especially those who wish to stay in business for a while.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/28/04 12:15 AM
Nick - The egg laden fish passing thruough a bird also "stinks" as you put it. How we going to get those eggs fertilized. Male and female both swallowed? Wow. . Where there is a will there is a way.

How about Aliens and space ships stocking fish? Sounds as good as most theories so far.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/28/04 11:24 AM
Bill,

To the best of my knowledge there isn't a body of permanent water within a mile of my pond...far as I can tell, the water exiting just spreads out in the woods below, no water there...water got real high this weekend after heavy rain and overflowed into bahia pasture...saw LOTs of bullheads in the pasture...maybe that'll get rid of them, they'll get trapped in the shallow water !...
Posted By: Haus Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/28/04 01:29 PM
Back in my Tornado chasing day’s I can’t tell you how many ½ - 4 acre ponds we have seen sucked dry from Tornadoes and the fish scattered for miles some of which would get caught up in the vortex and spread out to the super cell which could travel for hundreds of miles.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 06/28/04 11:49 PM
Thanks Haus -- This I can believe; rare but feasable. Fish that can survive out of water the longest such as bullheads and green sunfish are most likely to survive the air travel.
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/18/04 07:52 PM
This morning I went out to seed around a small 80'x40'x 4' deep pond that was excavated last fall. There is no inlet or connection to any other water body. I was surprised to see hundreds, if not thousands of small fish around the shore. Managed to scoop one out and they are green sunfish. I don't believe this is attributable to human activity.
Posted By: Lou Heron Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/18/04 09:47 PM
My 13 acre pond was built in 1959 and stocked by the state. I have subsequently restocked redear and have added coppernose. In the 12 years I have owned the pond, only a single "mud cat" has been caught. No other trash fish have been found in the pond. There are numerous other ponds and year-round creeks within a several mile radius. In this natural experiment, the many birds which visit seem to have brought no eggs on their bodies or legs. The spillway carries water about 6 months in most years, but there is a 3 ft. vertical waterfall not far below the pond, so I suppose we have been protected by that. I can't explain a single catfish unless a "helpful" young trespasser left it.

I think human intervention is a reasonable explanation for infestation of land-locked ponds. On the other hand, perhaps the most obvious possibility is the best one. Maybe Elvis never left the building. Here are two excerpts from internet sites:

http://www.noble.org/ag/Wildlife/Bullheads/
If you use draining to remove bullheads, leave the pond dry for six weeks because bullheads can survive in wet pond sediments for a while after surface water is removed. The best month to drain a pond is July. If water puddles remain in the pond after draining, they should be rotenoned.

http://www.waterknowledge.colostate.edu/greensun.htm
The green sunfish is tolerant of drought conditions and is one of the last species remaining in residual pools of intermittent streams.

Is is possible that a mud-puddle remained during the week your pond was dry? This would explain the size of the fish you are finding.
Lou
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/19/04 01:09 PM
This has been an interesting discussion and I've enjoyed reading the posts on this topic. I want to believe Bill's position because he has the education and experience that represents the highest level on this board. I'm finding it difficult, however, because I believe that we have a controlled experiment where human activity is not a factor for the following reasons:

1. The 80'x40'pond was completed in October 2003.
2. The property is fenced, located in a remote area and the neighbor's property is fenced.
3. The short time frame reduces the opportunity for illicit transplants or transfers
4. There is a sand road that circles property and another road that encircles this particular pond. We back blade these roads almost daily and would see footprints of any tresspassers.
5. There have not been any tornados
6. There has not been any water shared between ponds for any reason.

Clearly there is some natural method of introduction for these fry. Maybe I should call my alma mater and see if a future grad student would like to complete a thesis on this topic. I'll dig another small pond and they can log the visitors and establishment of species. Put a camera on the pond and record everything. I can't believe that this has never been done. I suppose you would still have to catch the culprit to prove how the fish were transported.
Posted By: ken Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/19/04 02:17 PM
we can try to come up with ways the fish get in there , but the bottom line is nobody knows for sure how they get in ponds or lakes with no water inflow , in the middle of nowhere. \:\) the plot thickens.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/19/04 03:53 PM
Man, this must be an enigma wrapped in a mystery !...didn't know I'd open up such a long thread !...

My pond was dry enough to walk on for about two weeks...forgot who asked if there was a puddle left...

After the rains a couple of weeks ago I may have figured it out...about a mile from my pond there is a small creek...it does hold water year 'round and is "downstream" from me...well after the heavy rain I spotted hundreds of bullhead fry swimming in puddles in my pasture which had to have come from my pond...only thing I can figure out is at some point in time the parents of the ones in the pasture worked their way up from the creek during a period of heavy rain...don't know about the bass or green sunfish, suppose the same theory is plausible...

Torchy
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/19/04 06:22 PM
Torchy:

This is not a possibility for me because there is a circular road around this pond that is bermed with no culverts. There is no possibility of a high water connection. It is an excavated sand pit that was completely sterile in October. Unless the critters put on their ice skates this past winter there has to be another solution. It is approximately 300-feet from the nearest pond containing fish. The area between ponds is heavily wooded.

I'm not offering any theories, just trying to eliminate a few of the more easily explained possibilites.
Posted By: Torchy Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/20/04 11:54 AM
Steve,

You've got a good one on your hands...I know all the experts say that the bird theory doesn't hold water...but...still...

I don't know for sure the fish came from that creek a MILE away, just wanted to throw that theory out there as an alternative to my bird thing !...still a mystery to me... \:\)

Torchy
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/20/04 12:11 PM
Here's a thought, one thing that has surprised me is the amount of travel between ponds by turtles. We see the tracks in the sand all the time. They must go back and forth constantly. Is it possible that a snapper could carry eggs from one pond to another? I highly doubt that the eggs would dry out in the underbrush between ponds. Especially when traveling at night or when its raining. Snappers always have a fair amount of moss on their shell that would stay moist and could form a substrate for eggs. It only takes one successful trip. I'm only talking about 300' in this case. What do you guys think?
Posted By: Nick Smith Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/21/04 03:04 AM
Lou Heron, It is my theory that if you stock some type of fish; they will eat any or most arriving fry. So stocking fish prevents the intrusion of unwanted species. How the fry arrive? The turtle idea is a good one. I know that there are instances in which fish arrive and it is not due to flooding from another pond. I have a pond that is a half mile from any others, and its drainage area contains on other bodies of water, yet it has bass, brim and green sunfish. Maybe mudcat too, I don't know. But I do see instances where stocked ponds have only what was stocked. So I conclude that the stocked fish prevent other unwanted species from establishing themselves.
Posted By: Eastland Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/21/04 11:56 PM
Has anyone considered the Hatcheries/Fish Trucks. Don't get me wrong, there isn't "one" scenario at work here...but where do hatcheries get their fathead minnows ? Surely the hatcheries face the same problems as pond owners, one contaminated pond could spread pretty fast. Just a thought, and I'll continue to buy their YOY, but is there an x-employee or owner with war stories about running the business...I'm betting there is, and I doubt the pro's on the board would implicate their partners, and I don't blame them.
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/22/04 02:46 AM
Here is a constructive comment on the previus 3 comments.

Number one I don't think a turtle walking between ponds has a better chance of transporting eggs than a bird does. I a duck that lands in fertilized eggs could easily get a couple under it's feathers and get to a pond in 2 minutes that would take a turtle hours to travel. This gives the bird the big advantage on avoiding the drying out of the eggs.

Number 2, The stocking of the pond is absolutely your best defense against this whole nightmare. If I had not lost all my Bass to the previous winter, the few bullheads that were introduced would have simply been eaten. We first saw the bullhead babies the first spring when the dead bass appeared. I am sure there was a very low bullhead population until then. The Bass would have kept them down so well I would have never known they were there. The Bullhead fishing so far this summer has produced 339 of which 2 were adults. No babies have been seen this year and I caught the 2 big ones before spawning time. I also stocked 40 8-9" bass early this spring.

Number 3, I am sure the fish stockers do screw up from time to time. Everyone does. They probably can get away with it a little because anyone who stocks minnows probably stocks predators also so it doesn't get out of hand in these ponds. However the stocking truck story doesn't explain how the rough fish get into the remote farm ponds.

Brian
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/22/04 08:01 PM
Brian:

To continue the friendly discussion: Stocking with predators should easily eliminate vulnerable fry from the catfish family, but from what I have seen, I seriously doubt it will stop green sunfish. Bob Lusk has frequently said that most established ponds have at least a few green sunfish. If predators were that effective at eliminating fry, wouldn't they prevent all recruitment of centrarchids?

As for the turtles, maybe you are right. I certainly don't think that a turtle will carry eggs a mile through south Texas. In my case it's only about 300-feet through wetlands. The permanent dry ground is probably only 100-feet wide. I assume that you have seen a large snapper with about 1/2-inch of algae on his back, which is essentially a sponge on the back of a small bulldozer. There are many days/nights where there is virtually no chance of the turtle drying out in the 20-minutes that it takes him to travel that distance. There are no fewer than five turtle tracks between ponds each day.

In my situation I think that makes more sense than a bird. Waterfowl plumage is coated with natural oils that repel water. I have a hard time believing that hydrophobic feathers can adsorb a water-based material (fish eggs) and transport it through the air. There are probably several potential dispersal methods, however, I don't believe humans played a role in the case I described. But then again, that's why I studied rocks. Does anyone here believe that all life began from a primordial soup and a bolt of lightening? Maybe its just spontaneous generation.

I assume Bill, Bob, Dave, etc. have tired of this topic or are preparing a Pond Boss article as we speak. Hope they have the definitive answer with pictures and interviews.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/23/04 01:26 AM
It is certainly my experience that LMB will wipe out a green sunfish population. As has been mentioned many times, LMB will eat green sunfish before bluegills. The longer, more slender shape of green sunfish go down easier than bluegills. Also, they stay a smaller eating size longer. We started out with more green sunfish than bluegills and now seldom see a green sunfish.
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/23/04 01:42 AM
If ever in my life I had seen a turtle with 1/2" of moss on it's back I would not have made that comment. I have many turtles and their backs are as clean as can be. Possibly the cold water and wintering under the ice prevents it. My water just recently passed 70 degrees. It's amazing how opinions can vary between people that are 1500 miles apart.

I also agree on the green sunfish. One of the biggest reasons people avoid the hybrid bluegills here is that they can revert to green sunfish and the bass don't prefer them to the abundant forage here. Of course we never stock native bluegills in Wisconsin because the bass don't even come close to controlling their numbers here. My bass have just started to feed heavily in the last week or so, just in time to control any baby cats. The clouds of them appeared in late july last year and this year the water is colder.
Posted By: Steve Young Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/23/04 01:10 PM
Here are a couple turtle pictures. I'm not trying to push this theory too hard, just thought it was a potential answer. Brian, I'm in Michigan just across the big pond from you.

Soup Stock
Posted By: JM Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/25/04 10:57 PM
Here is a link to a post in the Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks with a good picture of a debris covered snapper.

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4538
Posted By: Brian Loberger Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 07/26/04 04:28 AM
This should put this to rest but I am sure it wont...........

This past Saturday I spent the morning at a seminar for those of us with a Wisconsin Fish Hatchery license. I had to go just for the sake of meeting Dr Myron Kebus head of the whole program for the state of Wisconsin and one of the sharpest fish vetrinarians you could ever hope to meet. He has helped me overcome bad advice from local pond pros several times. After we were done studying livers from yellow perch which were poorly affected by feed training (really cool stuff), we discussed this at length.

The final answer from his point of view is there are 2 main ways these fish arrive. Eggs stuck to the feet of birds and eggs stuck to vegetation that is transported by birds and in unusual cases by other forms of life. They do not stick to the feathers. I am not sure what birds would transport grasses but it never ceases to amaze me the different creatures the pond attracts.

I have to tell you that asking this guy how fish get into remote ponds is like asking Alan Greenspan how you should invest your money. You may not agree with him, but he is very sharp in his field.
Posted By: Rangersedge Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 09/03/04 02:49 PM
Just thinking... There may be a budding biologist or someone on this board who needs an experiment for their masters or doctorate research paper OR maybe just someone who has a burning need to know.

It would seem that the viability of fish egg transport could probably be somewhat replicated in a controlled environment… Use pet ducks/geese, maybe first feed them in an artificial tank loaded with fish eggs and then later feed them in a artificial tank with none. Or maybe even just use feathers and fans and etc. from one container to the next with different time periods exposed to the fan to simulate flight / travel time. I don't know. I’m not a scientist or biologist. I'm just thinking…
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 09/03/04 08:22 PM
We have a fish farm in Buffalo, TX. We have about 30 ponds which we seine, drain, kill, and refill all the time. We have one hybrid striper grow out pond and have not introduced hybrid stripers to any other pond. Last year we found a hybrid striper in another pond at least 200 yds away. Explain that.

Also, we've killed off fish population s with rotenone and hydrated lime at low water levels, and found that some green sunfish and mudcats seem to survive what seems to be imminent death.

Did the pond go bone dry?...it is very difficult to drain a pond 100%.

This is where my suspicion lays.
Posted By: lukifell Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 09/09/04 01:41 AM
Consider this-

My pond is only 1/5 an acre. I have seen ospreys, kingfishers and mergansers there. All these birds eat fish. Could a predatory bird transport fish from one pond to another ? A bird might need to bring fish home to hatchlings for instance. Or perhaps a bird of prey might bring a fish to a female bird as part of a mating ritual.

It's not any more far-fetched than the Turtle Theory.
Posted By: 82Martin Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 10/05/04 09:53 PM
I'm not a very frequent contributor here, and I'm pretty late stumbling into this very interesting thread, but let me share a thought.

As a boy visiting my family's farm about 60 miles north of Dallas, I remember one summer when I was watching a thunderstorm come through, it looked like slivers of hail were falling with the rain. They were small "minnows"! They would flop around a little on the ground. I don't know what kind of fish they were, nor was there much of an explanation provided, other than that they may have been picked up by high winds or a water spout, but I had the newspaper clipping from the Gainesville Register for years. I saw it with my own eyes, and I was TOO YOUNG to be drinking! I've since heard of the same thing happening with small frogs. I suppose this could happen more often than one might think.

...If you build it, they will come...
Posted By: Sunil Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 10/06/04 11:46 PM
I was fishing at my place last Saturday. I was using shiners (2-4") that I bought from my regular bait store.

When I was done, I was throwing the leftover shiners into the pond, and there was a baby black bullhead in there. He got relocated to the shore.

I had the bait bucket in the water, and he was small enough to have swam through one of the holes in the bucket (not the circulation holes), so I really don't know if he migrated from the bait store.

I'm leaning toward the Mother Nature theory (birds, reptiles, storms, etc).
Posted By: Kansas Ed Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 10/30/04 02:45 AM
Thought I would add one more twist to the story. In the past 15 years I have have visited several old WWII ammunition plants in Kansas and Nebraska that were abandoned after the war or after the Korean War. Everyone one of these plants has large open concrete sumps or pits with walls that rise well above the ground surface. Most of them still hold water and many of them have fish, Ive seen bass and blugills.

There is absolutely no chance for stocking by turtles, no chance for travel from another body of water during rains. In my opinion there is only a remote chance of human intervention as these old plants are not open to the public and some are fenced and guarded. I suppose birds could land in these old sumps, but I've never seen a bird coming, going, or on the water. I doubt a duck would land next to old buildings, but its possible. I have seen dead possums and coons that have fallen into the sumps and couldn't get out. Maybe they brought the eggs? Another twist? Regards! Ed
Posted By: Jim Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/20/05 09:02 PM
We have been getting some unusual late spring rains here in Northern California. This is causing heavy runoffs and overflows at a time that it never happens. This morning I found fingerling Bluegills swimming about 1/2 mile out into a field on my ranch. They got there swimming in what amounts to sheet flows of water barely deep enough to cover them. I've seen it before so it didn't surprise me. My point is only that the little buggers can travel far distances in almost no water when forced to do so.
Jim
Posted By: Nick Smith Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/23/05 05:25 PM
This is an old topic, but one that I found very interesting. But since it refuses to die, I thought that I would answer the question once and for all and put her to rest.

aliens tranfer the fish. Crop circles occur when aliens acquire too much gas from the dentist and miss the pond in trying to land their "fish truck ufo".

Ever wonder why some fish have antenna? (we call them whiskers)

Ever wonder why the most transferred are mud cat (with antenna) or GREEN sunfish? Hmmmmmmm!!!

Aliens come down in little flying SAUCERS. (are you thinking tarter sauce?) and serve fish into our ponds. These GREEN, scaley creatures, grow in an environment where man cannot live. But they can, because they have GILLS. and bugged out EYES.

But we humans are smarter. We devise baits that they will bite and we catch and eat the aliens.

That is why they only come at night.

Well, the gas is wearing off now, so I will shutup.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/23/05 06:02 PM
Its interesting to look back at old topics and read who posted what. The oldest post I've found is one by Cecil in April 2002.

Many names come and go, but a few of the same characters are always here. I was a lurker early on before finally out of desperation having to ask a question...now I can't stop.

Great board with great folks! Just happy to be here.
Posted By: dennisinponca Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/24/05 03:15 AM
Torchy,

I was wondering how my pond suddenly become populated with black crappie. About a year after the problem arrived; my wife's uncle asked me if the crappie he put in my pond survived. For revenge, I often put turtles and large snakes in his pond, he is deathly afraid of snakes. My bet is on the neighbors or friends.

Also, I have heard of tornados draining ponds and I assume thusly spreading fish and fish eggs. My Mother-in-Law said their 2 acre pond was completely drained by a tornado that also took their wheat bin and the roofs from their barn and house.

A lot of possibilies, good luck with the detective work.
Posted By: Dave Davidson Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/24/05 10:22 AM
I recently had an instance of a snake almost making me wet my britches. I'm curious about that matter. What would make a water snake pack his bags and move overland to my place? Now, I think it's a nice place but why would a snake travel overland, face the dangers of hawks, owls, coyotes and other possible predators? How does it know it will find water? My wife says I need to stretch it out on the ground and ask it.
Posted By: dennisinponca Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/26/05 02:36 AM
The bird theory of fish egg transport deserves more study. I suggest everyone with an interest in ponds go out and kill 100 Water Turkeys and check them for fish eggs. Of course this is illegal but sometimes you must sacrifice for the pursuit of knowledge.

I know some will chastise me for suggesting something illegal, mostly those that do not have a sense of humor. By the way, is a water turkey edible?
Posted By: james holt Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/26/05 07:27 PM
I grew up in west texas and observed fish appearing in stock tanks under wind mills. There was no way that the fish could have swam into the tanks during a heavy rain because the tanks had three foot sides. We were told that birds brought the fish eggs into the tanks by a local biologist. The fish that were in the tank were too small to have been caught with a rod and reel and then put in the tank. This leaves only two possible causes A.)someone put small minnows in the tanks by catching them with nets B.)Birds brought them in.
Posted By: 82Martin Re: How did these fish arrive ? - 05/26/05 09:55 PM
James, is that Gainesville, Texas?
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