Pond Boss
Posted By: jwetovick Roundup - 05/01/19 02:11 AM
I realize rodeo is meant for aquatic but is there anyone that has experienced fish kill using regular roundup slash glysophate? Just curious if there truuuly is a difference other than double the price. I’m looking to spray some cattails. Thanks.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 02:18 AM
We used roundup to keep our boat trail clear of cattails on the duck lease. We hit it as soon as it started to green up and it worked well. We weren't too worried about fish kills in the marsh, tho.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 02:55 AM
IIRC the difference between Rodeo and Roundup is in the "inert" ingredients.

Recommending that someone deviate from the manufacturer's labeled appropriate usage instruction is probably not a good idea from a liability standpoint.
Posted By: anthropic Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 03:17 AM
Judging by the feeding frenzy of liability lawyers, you better buy some Roundup soon before it is taken off the market. Sad.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 03:56 AM
Aqua Star Herbicide is the generic version of Rodeo and should be cheaper.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 05:15 AM
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Judging by the feeding frenzy of liability lawyers, you better buy some Roundup soon before it is taken off the market. Sad.


Sad, unless it causes cancer, right?
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 04:08 PM
https://www.monsanto-ag.co.uk/roundup/roundup-amenity/aquatic-use/
Posted By: BrianL Re: Roundup - 05/01/19 05:30 PM
Roundup Custom is what you need for aquatic use. You dd your own surfactant.
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Roundup - 05/09/19 01:41 PM
I use roundup twice a year around our pond and have never had a fish kill. Not even the minnows.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/10/19 11:39 AM
Follow label directions if you want to keep your pond safe.
Posted By: wannapond0001 Re: Roundup - 05/10/19 06:05 PM
After the news I won't use Roundup any more. Weed whacker works better.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/11/19 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: wannapond0001
After the news I won't use Roundup any more. Weed whacker works better.

Don’t believe all you read. Weed eater don’t work when cattails are further out than can reach.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/11/19 09:57 AM
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/...owa/3624978002/

One rouge agency of the WHO is responsible for this hype while 3 other agencies of the WHO say there is no risk. Every other agency around the world also says no risk. Why would one trust the outlier group?

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/glyphosate-cancer-data/
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Roundup - 05/11/19 11:00 AM
I bought some off brand glyphosate from TSC to kill poison oakIt works. I do wear nurse gloves though.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/11/19 01:00 PM
Always smart to take the protective precautions listed in the label.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 01:06 PM
Looking into using Rodeo. It appears they suggest spraying when the cattails are mature. I would assume this would be July/August for us Nebraska folks. I was hoping not to have to wait that long as I'd like to try to spray half now and half fall to try and eliminate a big decrease in oxygen levels from the decaying. Anyone had good luck last spring early summer? From what I can tell on the label I'm going to try the 1.5% mixture unless someone has other positive suggestions? Thanks
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Judging by the feeding frenzy of liability lawyers, you better buy some Roundup soon before it is taken off the market. Sad.


Sad, unless it causes cancer, right?

Practically everything causes cancer if
1) you are exposed to huge amounts of it, or
2) you live in the state of California
Posted By: anthropic Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 05:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Judging by the feeding frenzy of liability lawyers, you better buy some Roundup soon before it is taken off the market. Sad.


Sad, unless it causes cancer, right?

Practically everything causes cancer if
1) you are exposed to huge amounts of it, or
2) you live in the state of California


Yep. wink Though, to be fair, Louisiana is another state renowned for litigation. Every other billboard on I-20 is an ad for a lawyer to sue someone. No wonder many businesses are reluctant to move there.
Posted By: ewest Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 05:52 PM
There is too much environmental hysteria especially around glyphosate.

Much of it is about power and litigation $.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 06:25 PM

Conspiracy Mode ON


When I put on my cynic (tinfoil) hat, I wonder if it is "okay" with Monsanto if Roundup be forced out of use now that Monsanto's patent on Roundup-ready GMO soybeans has expired. They have a lot more money to be made with Combo(Dicamba)-ready GMO beans, and that business is all theirs.

Many soybean farmers are having to switch to Combo-ready beans and Combo herbicide because overspray from a neighbor's Combo use (which it seems to be particularly susceptible to) (("even suspiciously susceptible to" - Theo's Tinfoil Hat)) is killing their Roundup-ready soybeans.

Conspiracy Mode OFF
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 06:56 PM
Dicamba does not control enough different weeds to be used without glyphosate on row crops. Glyphosate is not even close to being banned. Every government regulatory body around the world has looked at the same data as the WHO group and determined glyphosate does not cause cancer. The same WHO group that concluded glyphosate is a carcinogen also determined that working shift work causes cancer. That group is broken.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreykabat/2017/10/23/iarcs-glyphosate-gate-scandal/#58328d0b1abd
Posted By: gehajake Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 07:07 PM
Responding to Theo G, it does bring up an interesting point,, not at all unlike DuPont coming up with a new Freon for air conditioners every 5 to 8 years, just about the time everybody has upgraded to the new stuff, and the patent runs out, it becomes toxic and conveniently they come up with another new type,, pretty much a racket.
Posted By: Tom M Re: Roundup - 05/14/19 10:24 PM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Looking into using Rodeo. It appears they suggest spraying when the cattails are mature. I would assume this would be July/August for us Nebraska folks. I was hoping not to have to wait that long as I'd like to try to spray half now and half fall to try and eliminate a big decrease in oxygen levels from the decaying. Anyone had good luck last spring early summer? From what I can tell on the label I'm going to try the 1.5% mixture unless someone has other positive suggestions? Thanks

I've used Rodeo on both mature cattails and freshly emerged and both have been successful. It's best to wait until you're sure the new ones are pretty much all sprouted to reduce the need for repeated spraying.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 01:22 PM
Conspiracy theorists are not a rare breed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Conspiracy theorists are not a rare breed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6282974/

That's what they WANT you to think. wink
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 05:02 PM
The odds are in favor of all of us who have used Roundup or who live next to fields that are covered in Roundup... The jury has spoken and a couple is 2 BILLION (with a B) richer now because of the nagging suspicions in a typical jurors mind that this stuff might be bad after all.

The momentum will build and anyone with an axe to grind will bring their pinstripe suit to court and line up for the handsome payouts that are bound to keep coming.

I'm sure you will never get a scientific answer and you certainly can't do a controlled trial exposing some to Roundup and others to an alternative.

I just know it is frightening when they test many produce items in the grocery store and it still has the roundup detectable in it...

2 Billion Award
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 05:43 PM
In other news...

https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2019-05-14-herbicide-linked-to-human-liver-disease.aspx

and I just picked up 2-1/2 gallons of Rodeo yesterday.
Posted By: anthropic Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 05:44 PM
Best studies have shown that Roundup is not carinogenic, but that's not where the big money is to be made. Show the jury someone with cancer that used Roundup and of course they'll want to help, regardless of evidence.

For facts, see https://www.wsj.com/articles/roundup-of-cancer-evidence-11557876010
Posted By: ewest Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 06:02 PM
Just note that the verdict was in CA. Crazy capitol of the US.

The cost of litigating several hundred of these cases could bankrupt the manufacture. Then it will be made (knock-off) in China and who knows what we get.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 06:06 PM
Glyphosate appears to be the universal herbicide. I’ve been using it to Kill a huge outbreak of poison oak.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 06:54 PM
Just sprayed some cattails last night with Roundup mixed at the 1.6% rate. Will report back with any dead fish sightings and/or dead cattails. If I don't see any dead fish (which i doubt i will) then I'd rather buy 2 2.5gal jugs of roundup (with surfactant) for less than 1 2.5 of Rodeo and surfactant.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 08:45 PM
It's my understanding that it's the surfactant used with Roundup that is harmful to amphibians and other aquatic organisms, that's why it's not labeled for aquatic use. It probably won't kill your fish unless it kills a strong algae bloom and causes a severe dissolved oxygen sag, but it could do some damage to your aquatic food chain. One of the things it might do to your fish is cause liver damage.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 09:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Shorty
It's my understanding that it's the surfactant used with Roundup that is harmful to amphibians and other aquatic organisms, that's why it's not labeled for aquatic use. It probably won't kill your fish unless it kills a strong algae bloom and causes a severe dissolved oxygen sag, but it could do some damage to your aquatic food chain. One of the things it might do to your fish is cause liver damage.


Roundup will most likely not/not labeled to kill algae to my understanding. Only weeds etc out of the water like cattails. They recommend using a surfactant with rodeo but never say anything about using some special 'aquatic' surfactant so I'm confused about this whole situation and said to heck with it, I'm going to take the stance that the only difference is rodeo does not have a surfactant and use regular roundup. Not saying I'm right, just my .02 after doing a lot of reading.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/15/19 09:33 PM
Rodeo is supposed to be used with a "non-ionic" surfactant.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 01:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Shorty
Rodeo is supposed to be used with a "non-ionic" surfactant.

I have been trying to research and coming up empty. Do we know that the surfactant in roundup is ionic and not nonionic? I’m curious. Can’t seem to find the answer.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 01:33 AM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Originally Posted By: Shorty
Rodeo is supposed to be used with a "non-ionic" surfactant.

I have been trying to research and coming up empty. Do we know that the surfactant in roundup is ionic and not nonionic? I’m curious. Can’t seem to find the answer.


I just always assumed you needed to add your own surfactant to Rodeo to maximize the result. I add 1 ounce of a non-ionic surfactant (I use Cygnet) per gallon of spray. I use roundup for areas away from the pond without adding a surfactant and get good results.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Originally Posted By: Shorty
Rodeo is supposed to be used with a "non-ionic" surfactant.

I have been trying to research and coming up empty. Do we know that the surfactant in roundup is ionic and not nonionic? I’m curious. Can’t seem to find the answer.


I haven't had much luck either, could it be the concentration of surfactant in the mix that makes one approved for aquatic use and the other one not? Or maybe the type of surfactant?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethoxylated_tallow_amine

Quote:
POEA concentrations range from <1% in ready-to-use glyphosate formulations to 21% in concentrates.[2] POEA constitutes 15% of Roundup formulations and the phosphate ester neutralized polyethoxylated tallow amine surfactant constitutes 14.5% of Roundup Pro.[


Quote:
A review of the literature provided to the EPA in 1997 found that POEA was generally more potent in causing toxicity to aquatic organisms than glyphosate, and that POEA becomes more potent in more alkaline environments.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 02:34 AM
I'm still confused. crazy

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/glyphosate_confusion_what_are_the_differences_in_formulations

Quote:
Several types of salts have been used to formulate different glyphosate products over the years and each salt has a different molecular weight. Primary salts that have been used to formulate glyphosate products include: potassium, isopropylamine, monoammonium, diammonium, and trimesium salts. Because of the differences in the molecular weights of these salts there are changes in the glyphosate acid to salt ratio in the different glyphosate products.


Quote:
Another difference in glyphosate products is whether a surfactant needs to be added to the spray solution or if the formulated glyphosate product has a built-in adjuvant package. Products like Roundup WeatherMax, Touchdown Total, Glyphomax XRT and several others have built-in adjuvant systems. Even though all of these products have a built-in adjuvant system, there can and many times are differences in the type of surfactant formulated in the product. These differences may equate to differences in weed control under extreme conditions.


I believe Roundup is formulated with Isopropylamine, Rodeo is formulated with? I still can't find much information on the surfactant used in Roundup.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropylamine
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 02:35 AM
Has anyone come across someone that has noticed fish or wildlife kill from using roundup for spraying in or around water?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/16/19 02:46 AM
I had a fish related kill last July when the soy beans next to my pond were sprayed on a windy day, it killed my algea bloom and caused a DO sag. The bryzoans colonies that were just getting started disappeared shortly afterwards.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 12:04 AM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Has anyone come across someone that has noticed fish or wildlife kill from using roundup for spraying in or around water?


We are testing to find out, my neighbor had a company out today to spray some form of Roundup and fertilizer on the field next to the pond with a 15+ mph SW wind, he will be planting tomorrow. It's already killing the brome grass along the fence line, my pond is 25 yards downwind of where they sprayed today. I did stop and talk with him in case any issues pop up but he didn't know exactly what was sprayed. It is supposed to storm here Saturday evening so I will likely get some some residual run off too.

crazy
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 03:15 AM
I liberally sprayed roundup two days ago on cattails that we’re out from shore about 10 ft so much spray was definitely in open water. I have not noticed anything dead so far as far as fish or frogs. Will watch daily and report back.
Posted By: john kelsey Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 11:27 AM
What is a general mix for Weedtrine d?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 12:04 PM
Checked the pond this morning before work. mad





Attached picture IMG_0826.jpg
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 12:51 PM
Darnit Shorty! I hate to see that.



Posted By: Custom 68 Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 01:10 PM
Oh Shorty that's terrible.
Do you think this is from the DO sag like you attributed to last time? I had not studied the use of roundup enough but knew it had warnings about pond use.
Good luck
Dave
Posted By: roundy Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 01:29 PM
Is that the same pond that beautiful RES came out of the other day?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 01:51 PM
Originally Posted By: roundy
Is that the same pond that beautiful RES came out of the other day?


Yes. Found a bigger one this morning. mad

The Nebraska Department of Environmental Quality is on his way this morning to take samples, so is the Salesman of the company that sprayed the field.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 01:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Custom 68
Oh Shorty that's terrible.
Do you think this is from the DO sag like you attributed to last time? I had not studied the use of roundup enough but knew it had warnings about pond use.
Good luck
Dave


Yes, very likely a DO sag.
Posted By: snrub Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 02:46 PM
Wow. That is a sad sight.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 04:00 PM
I have found 19 dead smallies of the 81 I stocked last fall, lots of RES including a couple of big ones. NDEQ has been out and taken samples, DO readings, and the company that sprayed the field was out too. Apparently they sprayed a mixture 2 4 D (no surfactant) mixed with fertilizer. What they sprayed is killing the clover on my dam 10 to 20 yards inside my property. The NE Department of AG will be out Monday morning.
Posted By: DavidDunn Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 04:57 PM
Oh man, that is terrible news. I would be beside myself. I wish you the best of luck with getting a quick and hopefully fair resolution.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 05:42 PM
Sorry to hear about the fish kill Shorty! Are there any regulations in place regarding weather conditions required for application that were violated?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 06:20 PM
Shorty:

I trust you are recording dead fish numbers, species, and sizes for hopeful punitive restocking measures.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 06:32 PM
Sorry to hear Shorty! Hang em high!
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
Shorty:

I trust you are recording dead fish numbers, species, and sizes for hopeful punitive restocking measures.


Will do, the bad thing is there will be a bunch that don’t float, this is just day one and I’m sure there a bunch laying on the bottom still.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 07:06 PM
Sorry Shorty
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 09:18 PM
So sorry Shorty. We just had a fish kill ourselves, and it's a heart breaker.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/17/19 11:06 PM
The wind has really been blowing today which is good but a lot of the fish that died on the bank have sunk and are laying on the bottom now. I expect a lot of them will be popping up over the next couple of days. So far I have picked up 24 of the 81 SMB I stocked last fall and suspect every single one of them are dead. The only living things I have been able to sample with my long handled dip net are BF tadpoles and small 1 to 1-1/2" FHM or shiners. I will try and run the seine later tonight and see if there are any RES survivors.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:10 AM
I do have a handful of survivors.



Attached picture 20190517_190339_resized.jpg
Posted By: roundy Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:53 AM
Those are some king sized tadpoles.... aren’t they?
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:10 AM
Gosh I feel sorry for you. i am not convinced 2 4 d drift caused this. First off, 2 4 is a broad leaf chemical so when u say ur brome was already smoked, that's not from 2 4 d. Brome is a grass n not killed by 2 4 d unless possibly sprayed by a very heavy dose. If they sprayed only a day ago there is little chance a decrease in oxygen could occur as plants don't decay a day after being sprayed. Something else is going on. Be interesting to see what you find out. Hope you get an answer.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:15 AM
Damn Steve...hey I'm here to help you, just let me know what I can do.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Gosh I feel sorry for you. i am not convinced 2 4 d drift caused this. First off, 2 4 is a broad leaf chemical so when u say ur brome was already smoked, that's not from 2 4 d. Brome is a grass n not killed by 2 4 d unless possibly sprayed by a very heavy dose. If they sprayed only a day ago there is little chance a decrease in oxygen could occur as plants don't decay a day after being sprayed. Something else is going on. Be interesting to see what you find out. Hope you get an answer.


It was a 2 4 D and fertilizer mix, it was the fertilizer that burned the brome grass, the 2 4 D killed the algea bloom in the pond and caused a DO sag.

I have absolutely zero FA or other aquatic vegetation in my pond due to the GSH, it is all microscopic algea suspended in the water column, the water color went from green to brown overnight. Dead and dying fish less than 24 hours after spraying in the wind, what else would have caused it?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:28 AM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Damn Steve...hey I'm here to help you, just let me know what I can do.


Reserve some smallies for me this fall. wink
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:32 AM
Is the 2 4 D itself directly toxic to the fish? Even if the 2 4 D killed the algae, wouldn't a DO drop take longer from the decaying algae or is the DO drop from the lack of algae generating O2? Was spraying in the relatively strong wind illegal?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:47 AM
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/24Dgen.html

Quote:
2,4-D is an herbicide that kills plants by changing the way certain cells grow. 2,4-D comes in several chemical forms, including salts, esters, and an acid form. The toxicity of 2,4-D depends on its form. The form also affects what will happen to 2,4-D in the environment and what impacts it may have, especially on fish. 2,4-D is used in many products to control weeds, and it is often mixed with other herbicides in these products.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 03:16 AM
Steve I agree with your horrible assessment. I will help with smb this fall.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 03:35 AM
Since 5 PM tonight I have picked up the following dead fish:

33 6" SMB (a total of 81 were stocked last November.)
326 RES
91 large GSH
9 FHM
3 BF tadpoles.

I get everything picked, count fish, turn around a spot more floaters, pick them up then go inside for a hour or more. Once I come back out to check the pond I am finding 4 to 7 dozen new floaters that were not there when I left. My 10 pm flash light pick up count was 5 SMB, 84 RES, and 4 GSH. This is going to be ugly in morning.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 03:47 AM
Steve are you aerating?
Posted By: Snipe Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 04:15 AM
Shorty, call your closest weather reporting station and get the winds for the time period before and after they sprayed. ALL chemicals for Ag use have Labeled max wind for application-seldom do the applicators follow that to a T but they should have NEVER sprayed upwind of your pond anyway-that's your way out if needed.
Posted By: Joey Quarry Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 05:03 AM
What a sucker punch to the cujones. All that work to create a fishery and some idiot decides to overspray an environmental toxin so they can grow a vile, toxic weed like soybeans. I guess that is why my father always said, "Good fences make good neighbors."

I am not a big believer in civil litigation but if your tests come back with a definitive conclusion, I wouldn't blame you for lawyering up.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 07:56 AM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Steve are you aerating?


I started shallow water emergency aeration yesterday morning as soon as I saw what was happening. I was planning on beginning the start up procedure for my deeper water aeration this weekend now that water temps have finally warmed up.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 08:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Snipe
Shorty, call your closest weather reporting station and get the winds for the time period before and after they sprayed. ALL chemicals for Ag use have Labeled max wind for application-seldom do the applicators follow that to a T but they should have NEVER sprayed upwind of your pond anyway-that's your way out if needed.


Max wind for application is 5 mph, the Lincoln Airport history had a recorded wind speed of 9 mph at 6:54 am and had climbed to 14 mph by 10:54 AM. The Company said they started spraying the 180 acres around our place at 7am. The Lincoln Airport is 15 miles straight south of us.

We also had a record high that day, it was sunny and 85 degrees by 11:54 am. One of my coworkers who used to farm said that with the sun and wind the spray may have "atomized" and been carried by the wind as it was drying. The smell was really bad when I got home, it still smelled bad when the NEDQ was out here sampling and taking DO measurements.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 11:02 AM
Isn't 2,4-D used right in ponds? DO numbers should help. Hot day
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:00 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Isn't 2,4-D used right in ponds? DO numbers should help. Hot day


Depends on the formulation, some formulations are toxic to fish, if I found the right label the one they sprayed is toxic to fish. A one - two punch, toxicity and a DO sag, and it may volatilize during hot weather.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld2DI004.pdf

Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:05 PM
The running count since 5 PM last night for dead fish:

58 6-7" SMB (a total of 81 were stocked last November.)
557 (5" average) RES
117 large GSH
9 FHM
6 BF tadpoles.

This mornings 7:30 AM count was an additional 25 SMB, 231 RES, 3 tadpoles.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:23 PM
Any idea on how long it will take the 2 4 D to dissipate in the pond making it safe to restock?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Any idea on how long it will take the 2 4 D to dissipate in the pond making it safe to restock?


Good question, I will need to ask but here is what Wiki says.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_acid

Quote:
In aerobic aquatic environments, the half life is 15 days, while in anaerobic aquatic environments,[clarification needed] 2,4-D was moderately persistent to persistent (half life of = 41 to 333 days). 2,4-D has been detected in streams and shallow groundwater at low concentrations, in both rural and urban areas. Breakdown is pH dependent.[30] Some ester forms are highly toxic to fish and other aquatic life.
Posted By: Snipe Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 02:28 PM
Depends on type of 2-4-d used but esters fume under hot conditions and Crystalize in microscopic size and float in the air. 2-4-D can and will kill grass in this form.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 03:16 PM
The running count since 5 PM last night for dead fish:

60 6-7" SMB (a total of 81 were stocked last November.)
575 (5" average, some larger, some smaller) RES
120 large GSH (5-9")
12 FHM
7 BF tadpoles.

Posted By: DrLuke Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 04:08 PM
I don't have anything more to offer than a heart felt "I'm very sorry for your troubles". I hate to see any of the PB family have this stuff happen.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 04:24 PM
I'm pretty sure the formulation used around my pond is the toxic to fish type, sales rep called it 2,4-D "6 lb.". Directly quoted from the PDF label I posted at the top of this page.

Quote:
This pesticide may be toxic to fish and aquatic invertebrates. Do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present, or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark. Drift and runoff may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in water adjacent to treated areas. Do not contaminate water when disposing of equipment wash waters or rinsate.


Quote:
Do not apply at wind speeds greater than 15 mph. Only apply this product if the wind direction favors on-target deposition and there are not sensitive areas (including, but not limited to, residential areas, bodies of water, known habitat for nontarget species, nontarget crops) within 250 feet downwind. If applying a medium spray, leave one swath unsprayed at the downwind edge of the treated field


Quote:
2, 4-D esters may volatilize during conditions of low humidity and high temperatures. Do not apply during conditions of low humidity and high temperatures.



Attached picture Lincoln Weather 5.16.19.PNG
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 04:49 PM
Oh my gosh! This makes me sick Shorty. So sad to see this. The guy that farms my fields works for the local fertilizer dealer. They do a lot of spraying. He sprayed this last Tuesday because he wanted to plant this week, and the weeds were already taking over. I haven’t been back up since. Supposed to get hard rains today and tonight.

I sure hope there’s some strong compensation for you, but you’ll still be starting over, I guess.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 05:16 PM
Steve I can send an invoice from Hudland Management to restock....you can't believe the market these days on RES, SMB, and GSH - through the roof! wink
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 05:41 PM
The running count since 5 PM last night for dead fish:

61 6-7" SMB (a total of 81 were stocked last November.)
585 (5" average, some larger, some smaller) RES
122 large GSH (5-9")
12 FHM
7 BF tadpoles.

The number of new floaters appearing every hour has slowed down quite a bit.
Posted By: roundy Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 09:25 PM
What size is the affected pond, Shorty?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/18/19 11:10 PM
1/4 acre
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 03:17 AM
I do have a few survivors, 10 RES in this seine survey.



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Posted By: TGW1 Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 11:06 AM
Wow! Really sorry to hear about your fish kill. Some people just don't understand the feelings we have for our fish. I hope your neighbor is understanding and pony's up for a few grand.
Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 02:10 PM
If it was a contract applicator, might be an insurance claim.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 03:21 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Isn't 2,4-D used right in ponds? DO numbers should help. Hot day

RAH, it is. I've used Navigate for several years, and had zero fish issues.

Roundup and Rodeo are always compared, but differing kinds of 2,4-D never entered my mind.
Posted By: Zep Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Some people just don't understand the feelings we have for our fish.

So true Tracy....I rarely kill anything...when we find a cricket at our office I'll take it outside and let it go in the bushes...but if birds or otters start killing my fish...hey those fish are like our kids. It's WAR baby!

Posted By: RAH Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 05:19 PM
I too was unaware that different forms of 2,4-D affected fish differently, but have never used 2,4-D near water. I also read and follow labels on each product we buy.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/19/19 05:33 PM
Total count for dead fish:

70 SMB 6-7" (a total of 81 4-6" were stocked November 11th, 2018. Number includes two 17-1/2"+ SMB)
656 RES (4-5" average, some larger, some smaller)
151 GSH (5-9")
15 FHM
16 BF tadpoles.
1 Yellow Perch (10")

909 Total

No new dead fish since Wednesday evening.

RIP Big Girl




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Posted By: Augie Re: Roundup - 05/20/19 12:26 AM
That's awful, Shorty. Really sorry that this happened.

After Pops retired from scratching dirt he spent about 15 years running spray rigs for MFA. He killed two ponds the first year
he ran the spray rig. After that he refused to spray any field that had one if the wind was blowing.
Posted By: BrianL Re: Roundup - 05/20/19 02:42 PM
Start keeping a record of your time spent collecting and counting.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/20/19 06:55 PM
I have been. The good news is the number of new floaters I am finding has slowed way down, bad news is the GB heron is working on cleaning up dead fish while I am at work today.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Roundup - 05/21/19 10:12 AM
Get a game cam pic of the heron eating the fish. That is further potential collateral damage.
Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 05/24/19 01:20 PM
Any update on this situation as far as insurance, etc?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/24/19 03:15 PM
Waiting on the Nebraska Agricultural Dept. report regarding my complaint which I amended on Monday, my alfalfa field got hit pretty good too. The 2,4-D label clearly states that treated alfalfa cannot be fed to livestock. The Atrizine label restricts livestock grazing for 21 days which affects my horse pasture below the dam on my pond as well.
Posted By: Custom 68 Re: Roundup - 05/24/19 04:49 PM
Wow what a mess, this is terrible but I really appreciate you keeping us informed. I am certainly learning a lot about the 2,4 D. I know it is so commonly used since you can spray a field and only get the weeds. It sounds like there is so much more to know and learn.
Good luck!
Dave
Posted By: ewest Re: Roundup - 05/29/19 02:37 PM
Shorty did you talk to the guy prior to the spraying. If so then you may have a gross negligence claim ( punitive damages) possible.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/29/19 05:36 PM
Nope, field was sprayed without any notice.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 05/31/19 12:37 AM
Picked up a few signs to post around our place today.



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Posted By: jwetovick Re: Roundup - 06/04/19 01:50 AM
Update from spraying roundup with their included surfactant. I fully admit i thought maybe the rodeo route was a way to mark the glysophate up for profit. Yesterday I sprayed cattails with a 1.6 percent roundup mix around a portion of my 2 acre pond at 3pm. Today I went back at 5pm and found 4 dead gills and 2 dead crappie. 5 of the 6 appeared to actually be dead for awhile and 1 10in crappie had not been dead very long. I admit ignorance and assume roundup was the reason. Will now buy rodeo and use a non ionic surfactant. Posting for others heads up. Hope I don’t find many more tomorrow.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 06/05/19 02:42 AM
I sprayed rodeo on the dog bane in the North end of my pond last Friday, no dead fish so far and the dog bane is sitting in a foot of water with all of the rain we have had in the last week. Oh, the dog bane got curled pretty good from 2,4-D drift on May 16th, this patch of dog bane is at least 50-60 yards inside our property line.
Posted By: BrianL Re: Roundup - 06/07/19 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: jwetovick
Update from spraying roundup with their included surfactant. I fully admit i thought maybe the rodeo route was a way to mark the glysophate up for profit. Yesterday I sprayed cattails with a 1.6 percent roundup mix around a portion of my 2 acre pond at 3pm. Today I went back at 5pm and found 4 dead gills and 2 dead crappie. 5 of the 6 appeared to actually be dead for awhile and 1 10in crappie had not been dead very long. I admit ignorance and assume roundup was the reason. Will now buy rodeo and use a non ionic surfactant. Posting for others heads up. Hope I don’t find many more tomorrow.


You can buy aquatic Roundup. It is the standard surfactant in regular Roundup that is toxic to fish.
Posted By: roundy Re: Roundup - 06/17/19 04:04 PM
Just received a notice from my small farm insurance company on AG chemical liability. Looks like they are taking notice.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 06/26/19 04:20 PM
Here we go again...details to follow, a second round of spraying occured Monday afternoon in almost identical wind conditions, Roundup and Laudis this time, it will be a few days before any effects start to show and just how much drift occured. Heavy rain here this morning with run off coming into the pond. My no drift signs were completely ignored.
Posted By: ewest Re: Roundup - 06/26/19 04:27 PM
Sounds like bad faith to me ! Collect a runoff sample.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Roundup - 06/26/19 06:11 PM
Done!
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