I am about to build a small pond in central Indiana using a backhoe. The pond will be fed by an artesian well. I will leave it unstocked for the summer to see if it stays cool enough for trout, but if not, I will try to use for building forage fish populations. I am a novice operator and would like to keep the pond as small as possible while making it functional. I am looking for suggested depths, dimensions and slopes. I think that I know how to make it water tight.
Cecil has a few 1/10 ac ponds, oval in shape, probably 10' deep. Slopes are too steep to walk on. You'd need a ladder to get out if you fell in and the water level wasn't to the top of the pond.
Depending on water flow, run it thru a packed column to oxygenate the water before it enters the pond, and let the overflow run to another pond.
Personally, I wouldn't make the slopes steeper than 3:1.
The problem that I have is at 10 feet deep at a center point and a 3:1 slope, I think the pond would be 60 feet in diameter. I am wondering about something more like 30 feet in diameter with some type of shelf around the edges for safety. Has anyone done this?
Rah, from what esshup said here my small sediment pond is built like Cecils. And I worried something or someone would fall in, so I cut in 2 small shelf area's so they could get out if needed. And because the pond banks were steep I was not able to pack clay close to the surface due to the steep banks. So I saw some seepage and used some of TJ's product and so far it has worked pretty good. Not sure this will help u any but thought I would pass on my experience.
Tracy
Thank you. I have the advantage that I can cut off the water if I need to adjust things later. I have good clay down low, but will likely need to core one end to keep the seepage down. I have space to do this post digging if needed. I will probably see where the water level ends up from the well first. If the seepage is low, things may be OK.
I am about to build a small pond in central Indiana using a backhoe. The pond will be fed by an artesian well. I will leave it unstocked for the summer to see if it stays cool enough for trout, but if not, I will try to use for building forage fish populations. I am a novice operator and would like to keep the pond as small as possible while making it functional. I am looking for suggested depths, dimensions and slopes. I think that I know how to make it water tight.
One thing I have found with my tiniest pond is that the Herrons love it. The fish can't get very far away from a bird. The other thing (that is likely only applicable in my situation) is that the pond is so small in volume, and since it is a sediment pond in line where the runoff goes through it before the main pond, it gets huge water exchange levels during a big rain event. It might have complete water exchanges on the order of ten or twenty times in a period of a day or two. The fish grow like crazy in it and do well. Till we have one of those huge rains. Then it is too much for some of the larger fish. Found some dead ones the last big rains and not many fish left. Now with subsequent rains lots of small 2" BG have either swam upstream and repopulated it or the small ones survived the high flow through.
Just one thing to be aware of. If the small pond is in line with a big pond where it gets huge water exchanges, the fish in it may suffer at times. I suspect big temperature and ph changes with high water exchanges.
Anything deeper than 36" is pointless, oxygen levels will be dropping off
At that average depth you will have stable temps as the season varies, you will be able to move around and reach all parts, arrange plantings where you can reach them
Any configuration shallower will warm and cool fast and encourage algae
A slightly deeper area to which debris can drift to and collect might be convenient to dredge, consider it a sump
I think that our seasons will result in fish kills in a very shallow pond. Maybe a shelf at 2 foot would discourage GBHs?
I have to agree with snrub with the water changes after big rains in my sediment pond. I will get some muddy water after experiencing 1+" rains. But I have decided to use it to raise FHM's and so far they survive the muddy water for short periods of time. I just use the water well to dilute the solids back. the excess water goes into the big pond and the FHM's seem to get through it all
Tracy
I have a sediment pond and understand its limitations. This pond will be filled with an artesian well and has very very little watershed.
Well, if it doesn't rain much, I'll start digging after work on Friday. If I can pick up the operation of the backhoe, then I am hoping to finish by Sunday afternoon. Will dig a hole in the middle and try to slope down at a 3:1 slope from the banks to the hole. If I hit any field tiles, I'll need to remove them for at least 20 feet and repack with clay on the downward side. This will be my first time running the hoe my brother gave to me (crazy brother).
Did he give you a dump truck too
I think it should be a law that every backhoe comes with a dump truck. They go hand in hand. Soon after digging you'll say start to realize that all the dirt is in your way and you need to move it again.
Get down to the depth you want the first time. Makes for a lot more work if you don't.
He also paid to ship it to me 600 miles and said there would be a bonus item. It was a 75 HP dozer! No dump truck though:)
Thanks for the digging advice.
Wow, a dozer too!!!!!!!!!
At least with the dozer you can push the dirt away from the backhoe area.
The loader on the backhoe holds 1.5 yds. That will move a lot of dirt if I can operate it OK.
Have fun.
Pictures when you get a chance. I'm curious what models you are getting.
Like fish n chips says, getting the dirt out of the way soon catches up to your digging. The more you can think about your dirt placement and the fewer times you have to move it the better. I always end up changing my mind on something and move it more than is efficient.
I have them and a neighbor/mechanic has gone through them: JD 410E hoe and JD 550G dozer. If I become a reasonable operator, they will do a lot of work. I think that I can spread the dirt on the lower edge of the pond area. This will also help prevent unwanted guests during a really big flood.
Those should be nice machines and reasonably late model.
JD 410E backhoe JD 550G dozer You have a generous brother! My brothers could only wish for as much!
He says that he doesn't want to operate junk when he visits:) He can make construction equipment sing.
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only downfall of a backhoe compared to an excavator is that it can only swing arc of 160° - 180° to deposit what you dug instead of 360° like an excavator can.
Thumb??
I am only seeing upside to these gifts. No thumb.
if it were me, I would probably have two many ponds after it is all said and done
Like snrub said, Have fun
Tracy
No such thing as too many ponds! I have two additional larger ponds that I would hire done right now if I could find the right contractor. The last fellow came by and looked over the sites. He seemed good and positive about the projects, but never contacted me again with a proposal. While I could contact him again, I really do not want a contractor that is not enthusiastic about the projects.
Are you going to/getting ready for your brother to do the new ponds?
In defense of the guy you never heard back from. Stuff happens. Computers crash, cell phones damaged, lots of other possibilities, etc. If you really liked him, I would reach out one more time to see what's up.... don't like his response, move on.
Why not use the dozer to cut in the small pond? Especially if you have tapered sides.
He may well dig these ponds, but he lives aver 600 miles away and has his own excavating/masonry work to do. Ponds are somewhat weather dependent, so it would be hard to schedule and he would need to rent a large excavator and a real operator for the dozer. The small pond that I will be doing will have a deep hole in the center with a ledge and taper near the edges for safety. I feel that I can work slowly with the hoe until I get some experience. I do have a dozer project also planned. This will be a bermed wetland. I will likely still core and pack the core of the berm with the hoe, but will use the dozer to strip the topsoil and build the dam above grade. I also purchased a pull type sheepsfoot roller that I now have a dozer to pull. My small tractor would have really struggled to pull it.
I am only seeing upside to these gifts. No thumb.
RAH, I completely agree. No down side at all.
I rented an excavator a while back, it was the largest one they had that had a bull dozer type blade on the front of it, along with heat and air. The company rented all types of heavy equipment, (big equipment) the cost to rent it for 3 weeks was $2,200.00. I remember being told one time "if it flys, floats or F (u know), you r better off to rent it.
I am keeping this same thought when it comes to heavy equipment
And will be renting it again when things dry out at my place.
Tracy
What size excavator was it? I have seen compact excavators with blades on them, but not full size ones with blades.
Update: Apparently, the big ones come with blades too.
RAH, I can not say off hand what size it was. but it was at least two times bigger than the largest back hoe I have ever seen, and 3 times bigger than the exc with blade you might see on a regular basis. Sorry but I just don't remember the size but it was a foreign made name brand, not a Cat. My neighbor has a cat exc. with a blade that I have used and the one I rented was at least 3 or 4 times larger. Sorry not much help but they are out there.
Tracy
Actually this is a big help in that I thought a rental like this would cost a lot more. Of course things may be different in my area.
With imminent rain coming today. I held off starting to dig the forage pond. With very little backhoe experience, its hard to estimate how long it will take to dig.
Update: Glad I held off. We got almost 1.5".
Well I got started but a hydraulic cylinder was leaking too much, so its being rebuilt. Dug the center hole and made a ramp out after a little painted turtle was spotted in the bottom. I may just pull out all the sides at the same slope. This will be fed by an artesian well. I still need to core a trench on the downside of the pond.
We built a small pond three years ago, a little less than a half acre.We dug it in two parts joined in the middle, the first part is 30 feet deep and is sloped at a low angle and the deep hole slowly goes from one end to the other at an angle to be about 6 feet deep. I liked this but felt as dry as we get in the summer I wanted more bottom area for water and for the wintering the fish. So we dug a nearly square hole 15 feet deep with a 10 foot wide,6 foot deep ledge around it. i planted 25 bass, 25 catfish, all were 4-6 inches and 200 BG 13 months ago. Today we caught 2 catfish 17 inches long and a bass 13 inches. I was worried our muddy clay pond would not grow anything, WOW. you don't meed much if you feed them and let them do their thing! You may dig now and want to adjust to your needs in a few months or next year, make it yours!
The current project is a very small pond. We have two other ponds that are about one acre each. This one may be to increase forage species for seeding into the other ponds, or if it stays cool enough from the well water, it may be for trout.
RAH this looks like an interesting project. I would like to do a similar sized pond when time and money allow.I look forward to seeing updated pictures!
RAH I added this thread to the list of specialty ponds I keep.
Sediment, forage and specialty pond list
(more pics) Still need to pack sides with backhoe bucket, compact core with sheep's foot roller (already packed with backhoe bucket in lifts up to grade), and dig trench to artesian well.
That appears to be about half the size of my forage pond which is about 1/20th acre and two to three times my pre-sediment pond. Good job. I think you will have fun with it.
That is the tiniest sheepfoot roller I ever saw. It is so cute!!!
By my calculations about 1/3 of yours (1/60 acre). The Sheep's foot is 4' wide, but still heavy filled with fluid.
Filling from artesian well!
If you ran that water down a cheap tarp there would be less turbidity when you are done.
That is a good idea. It looks like it will fill in about 3 days so the turn-over should clear it out pretty quickly. I am hoping that the flow will keep the water cold enough for trout even when it slows during the driest part of summer. If not, I need to figure out what type of novel forage to get going. I wish I could find a source of PK shrimp. I still will need to deal with the overflow. I am thinking of a shallow bog before it hits the duck pond below. I can turn off the water at any time.
OK, The small pond it full! I am seeking ideas on how to terminate the one inch poly line from the artesian well. I would like a solution that will work through Indiana winters without ice damage. Perhaps a floating "fountain" that will work with low pressure?
If it was me, I think I would just let it run into my big pond. Ponds like new water, if it's not to much to fast.
Tracy
what about shutting the valve down to a very low flow rate so it just barely maintains evaporation with little over flow and let it run?
I think my last post was poorly worded. The small pond will indeed overflow into a larger "duck pond" that is below. Since I have water moving from the artesian well into the forage pond, I thought that having a small "spray" or "fountain" effect to add aeration and some visual interest would be nice. I am looking for a good way to terminate the 1" poly input line such that it won't freeze up in winter. One thought is something that floats.
How about a waterfall?
You may have to go two seperate systems, One for summer then switch to something else that will not freeze in winter. Something under ground below frost line running directly into the pond for winter. DO levels should be good in surrounding water then anyway.
How about some pictures at full pool?
Ha! a private swimming hole for your dogs, looks like they think it was built for them
I had a Golden that duck hunted with me that loved the water, and now I have a 5lb toy Maltipoo that will not stay out of the water, he even tried to retrieve a duck decoy that was 15 feet from the shore.
Tracy
I think they appreciate the cooler ground water temps in our current heat wave. We have two fantastic dogs right now.
That worked out nice RAH. Good looking little pond and I am envious that you have a continuous source of free flowing water. I would really like to have a small amount of flow through during the summer in my ponds.
I sure appreciate having the water flow and think it is very cool!
RBT question: What is the maximum temp that RBT will do well in, and at what depth should it be measured?
I think that my first fish for the forage pond might be LCS but I don't want to add them until I know the water is OK ($$). What might I add now to check the water quality but which will not interfere with the small LCS that I add later? I have access to CCS and FHM. I think that Gambusia or GSH might not work well and I hate to add even one goldfish (pretty carp). I might be able to catch a stoneroller or white sucker if they are a better choice? The easiest would be a few CCS if they will work well.
CCS? That is not on our list of commonly used acronyms. Provide the name and I will add it to the list. Compatible culture fish as forage with LCS is IMO bluntnose minnows(BNM) and FHM.
I was hoping that LCS would provide the clue:) - CCS = creek chubsucker. I was wondering if large FHM could eat 1.5 - 2" LCS? Is there a supplier for BNM?
We (my daughter) transplanted a yellow water lily into the forage pond, so maybe there are FHM eggs on the leaves. We shall see. FHM got in my sediment pond that way.
Adult FHM will not eat a fish 3/4" long or even 1/2" long. FHMwill eat unprotected fish eggs. Creek chubsuckers(CCS) will likely not spawn in a pond but if you get it to happen that is excellent info. Lily leaves could have FHM eggs on the underside. More likely the eggs on lily leaves will be snail eggs.
OK - Operating a dozer is harder than operating a backhoe for this novice. Can't wait for some lessons when my brother visits mid month!
Any suggestions on a good supplier for regular eel grass (not corkscrew)?
I've bought plants from these guys in the past and they seem to have decent prices for pond quantity. They have eel grass (water celery).
http://www.kestersnursery.com/water_celery.htm
Thanks for the link but I don't need 50 eelgrass plants which is the smallest lot hey seem to sell. I only need 5 or 10 plants, especially since my past plantings have failed. This new forage pond is fed by an artesian well, so maybe this different condition will work.
I've bought from these guys as well. The plants are .50 each.
http://www.jjtransplant.com/vaamwaceba.html
I guess that I am cheep but $20 for shipping 20 bare-root plants seems excessive. I cannot remember where I bought them last time, but shipping was less than half of that.
Sorry, That's the only two places I've bought plants from that carry the eel grass. Good luck on your search. Please post back and share your source when you find one.
I may have found a generous Pond-Bosser! I will need to quarantine the plants for a bit, but that is just fine.
Received eelgrass in good condition from generous Pond Bosser today! Update: He sent dozens of plants which are all now planted in the artesian-well pond. The pond is definitely cooler than the watershed ponds but I have not yet bought a thermometer to check the temp with.
Morning update: Decided to make a bubbler fountain for the artesian well water to enter the small pond. The trick was drilling a 3/4" hole 12" through a granite rock with quartz in it. Decided to try the cheap route first by purchasing a carbide bit and using my 3/4" hammer drill. After buying the bit from Menards this morning, I saw that the maximum masonry bit for the drill was supposed to be 9/16". Well, I already had the bit... After 2 hours of 30-second cycles followed by water wash-out and drill cooling, I have a very nice 3/4" hole through the rock. When it dries up, I'll get it going and post pictures.
Afternoon update: A plastic 3/4" barb to 3/4" male pipe fitting went into the bottom of the rock hole (with caulk) nice and tight with a rubber mallet. Now the rock just must be placed and hooked up once the caulk dries (and the ground dries up from all the rain).
This pic shows the water coming through the rock better.
Very nice. The result was worth the effort!
Just wanted to let folks know that the eelgrass that was given to me by a generous Pondbosser is doing well. My previous attempts failed, so this is great for me. Life sure is fun!
If you get a chance post some pictures. I would like to know what it looks like. Guess I could look it up on line but would like to see yours specifically.
The eelgrass is small, dark colored, and submerged at least a foot, so I do not think that I can take a picture that will really show anything.
Wanted to show a picture of the eel grass sent to me by a kind forum member. The picture is not very good, but this is just one clump and they are spreading nicely, but not growing tall yet. They are red in color. The thorns are on honey locust branches that I put there to protect the plants.
Just checking on an assumption of mine. I am assuming that my small and deep forage pond, which is artesian-well fed and has little watershed, will eventually become nutrient poor and support little algae? I ask this because it currently seems to be growing surface algae in spurts and some filamentous algae on honeylocust branched that I added to protect new eel grass. I am guessing this is from residual nitrogen and phosphorus in the soil since the branches do not seem to be rotting yet. The well water is iron and calcium rich (hard water).
Rah, I have seen my forage pond water turn green from hand feeding daily. The well water you speak of may change out the water or displace the pond water over a period of time (what ever that time is) and may keep the water from turning to a fertilized pond with higher nutrients. In my case I get large amounts of water during rain events and the water turns really muddy with only inches of visibility. But then it settles and turns green again with high nutrients. Just my experience
I have added no feed to the pond and no fish yet (still hoping to get PK shrimp). I am hoping this small pond might maintain greater clarity compared with my larger ponds, but time will tell. The pond filled in less than 4 days, so it must change out about 1/4 of the water each day although some of the outflow is the water that just came in, so maybe a bit less.
If this wetland leaks, I know who to blame!
We have had some pretty cold weather here in central Indiana and I want to report that my artesian-well pond still has no ice at all. The song birds seem to like that. The new wetland has not filled much as expected with limited precipitation so far.
I like the honey locust thorns protecting your plants. Good thinking!
Very pretty RAH! I assume that's another pond behind? How big is that one?
The water behind the artesian pool was originally supposed to be a wetland. Fish and Wildlife said it would not hold water so I went a bit deeper, and since it did hold water, it is 3 to 4 feet deep which supports fish that get in during flooding, but often experiences partial kills in summer heat. I think it is under .75 acres. We call it the lower duck pond because a similar depth, but smaller duck pond sits above it (to the left in the photo). They have produced some nice warmouth at times, and the muskrats love them, which a trapper friend/neighbor enjoys.
You did well RAH. Nice job on the small pond.
Ah, the ol' muskrat love... Very pretty RAH.
Pond finally started freezing over (1/2 frozen and 1/2 open). Air temp is up from -4 this morning to 18 degrees.
My eelgrass is still green after all the cold weather. Is it normal for eelgrass to stay green through December? Does it not die down for the winter? Is this just the case on my pond because of the groundwater source of heat.
Eel grass is a warm season plant that begins growth in late spring near 70F, flourishes in summer and matures in late summer (Aug upper midwest). Depending on the variety, the ribbon leaves are comparatively durable and can remain mostly vertical most if not all winter. By spring the beds are more compact, leaves are usually drooping, dead, tan, or slight-green and in the process of decomposing.
You are an encyclopedia of knowledge! Thank you! I was just surprised they persisted so long in the very cold weather. I am thinking of building a small bog downgrade of this pond since I have the water-flow, land, and equipment to do it. With the slightly basic/hard water, it may be able to support fen-type flora and fauna. What fun!
Some bogs are pretty deep and support fish. I caught trout in a bog one time. There are alkaline and acidic bogs. Bogs have unique features - characteristics. Bogs are generally types Of wetlands. There are bog lakes.
The EPA considers that bogs are a type of wetland if I read this correctly? But based on this definition, mine won't be a bog because it will be basic. Maybe more like a fen?
https://www.epa.gov/wetlands/wetlands-classification-and-types#bogs
Since I will not have peat laid down over thousands of years, I guess I'll have a slightly basic-pH, hard-water wet depression, but a fen sounds so much more interesting:) Thanks for posting this info! Any ideas for unusual plants that we can add is appreciated. Not sure how I might contour a 30' diameter area to build something that will host a diversity of flora and fauna. It will likely be a dead end off the drain channel from the artesian pond overflow so it will not have any flow-through, but it could. I could also add some old wood chips to line the bottom if that might help the system mature faster.
A small pond due to its shoreline to volume ratio can quickly become plant infested and over run to almost choked with vegetation depending on species present. All plants spread. It may take a fair amount of annual maintenance to keep the plants controlled - be prepared.
Wetlands are often plant rich. Not sure that this is a problem?
.... Any ideas for unusual plants that we can add is appreciated. ....
Neat project RAH!
How about a Northern Pitcher Plant (Sarracenia purpurea) as an unusual addition?
Pitcher plants would be really cool if I end up with acid conditions after adding the wood chips. Not sure if they will take basic conditions?
I don't think pitcher plants like full sun exposure conditions.
I am seeing full sun on the internet and the internet is always right:) I am wondering if I should lay in a foot of wood chips and then cover with 4-6" of sandy-loam soil. Then let it set and see if it goes acidic? Maybe taper it gradually down to 2 feet deep (of water). This might make a cool micro-environment in my area? I have read that wood-chip bioreactors remove nitrates, so maybe this area would end up nitrogen-poor the way pitcher plants like it? Might be a great experiment! There look to be different biotypes, so I need to see about sourcing the purple pitcher plants to improve my chances of success.
