I am trying to get a jump on my 2016 trophy coppernose breeding program. Anybody out there have a source for 1.5-2# pure coppernose? I would like some jumbo pure coppernose males or females to cross with current OTS stock, in order to spice up my 2016 breeding program. Thanks in advance for any help.

I've seen astounding numbers of large CNBG coming out of Perris, and a handful of other So Cal lakes and resi's. Biggest coppers I know of, in quantity, at the moment.

I think Sparky is on target but I am thinking about the Hugh RES grown in Arizona, there has to be some monster CNBG there. And it would be a little closer. I might have to look see. Hope you find what you are looking for.

Tracy

Tracy, you're dead on. Havasu not only has monster RES, but the coppernose are beginning to grow large also.

Todd, get ahold of Condello. Maybe Aaron Mateo has some?

check with "cray" here on the forum, he has some giant CNBG he has been growing out. They are at least 11 niches long and fat as pigs.
I believe and I think He has some left.

A trip with a hauling tank to Richmond Mill may be in order. I'm sure you could get some willing Forum members to help collect some high quality stock. Greg Grimes may also be able to provide advice.

These are what CRAY was offering up, I don't mean to speak for him but I am pretty sure he was making them available.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=8797&filename=image.jpg

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=8780&filename=image.jpg

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=28854&Number=422025#Post422025

I have about 50 in the 11-12" range. Pm me if you are interested.

Thanks for the help!! For now I am looking for something closer to home. Most definitely I would like some fish from a different genetic lineage.

Where did you say these genetics came from Cray?

These fish came from a cypress lake called Rays millpond in Berrien county ga. We are about 45 miles from the Florida line.

If I recall correctly, most of the giant RES come from lakes with zebra mussels or other similar mollusks. Genetics is important, but food chain equally so.

That's correct, many feel the phenomenal growth of the RES is due to a combination of the Quagga mussels and an aggressive weed eradication program.

And while I personally feel the larger bluegills might forage on tiny mussels, they do lack the pharyngeal crushers that enable the RES to more efficiently utilize the larger specimens.

In my amateur opinion, genetics is the "supertune" applied to an already fast race car. the foundation to go fast is already built, it just needs a final tweaking to allow all of the components to work together optimally. Water quality, abundant forage or food, the chance to continue growth unimpeded by predators/anglers, all need to be in place before genetics provides the final "tweak" towards greatness.

sprkplug, do CNBG survive the winters ok in your area?

John, I'm not aware of any CNBG in my area. I have serious reservations about their ability to withstand our winters, and even if they did I feel their growth would be sub-optimum when compared to our northern strain fish.

I stocked about 130 CNBG in my pond last fall here in NW Arkansas. I wonder if I am near the northern limit of where they can thrive? The fish trucks are my only source, and they only sell CNBG here.

I'm thinking your fish should be fine. Lots of CNBG in Arkansas.

Agree with sprkplug (although I have little authority on the subject). The fish truck my CNBG came from sell north up to about the center of Kansas, although I guess that is no guarantee they actually live.

But your weather in NW Arkansas is decidedly milder most of the time even compared to where I live in SE Ks near Pittsburg.

NW Arkansas is a regular haunt for us for short motorcycle trips and over nighters. Heading SE to places like Beaver lake and Eureka Springs are a lot more interesting riding than if we head NW. Nothing against western Kansas people, but that just gets downright boring riding a motorcycle after a few hours.

Snrub,
We are about an hour drive south of Eureka Springs, and about the same from the AR River valley.

That sounds like down around the area of the Pig Trail Scenic Byway. Lot of pleasant roads in that area.

http://www.arkansas.com/scenic-byways/pig-trail/

Yup been on the pig trail myself a few times back when I had my RC51. Nice trails up there!

RC

let us know what you end up with as far as new genes for your CNBG and some pictures, Please

Near Highway 16 on the south end of Elkins. Have ridden the Pig Trail many times when I had a motorcycle. Now I drive it in my pickup. I have another small place near Pettigrew.

Speaking of CNBG, I'm interested in stocking some in my .5 ac pond. I'm off from work this next week, which would give my time to make a run to Overtons. Is this a good time to be stocking or should I wait until spring? Does it make a difference the time of year?

LP, the true experts can answer this better than I. But as someone who stocked CNBG only a month ago, I will give you my uninformed opinion.

First, if you get small fish, feed them small pellets. I made the mistake of feeding a really good food, Optimal, that was too large for the little guys. Eventually they adjusted, but I should have gone with small feed first.

A fellow PB member swapped me some Cargill small, bb size feed for a sack of Optimal (3/4 inch) just today, and I quickly found that the little CNBG were absolutely delighted to have something they could just swallow whole, no soaking and pecking necessary.

Because digestion slows as the water coolss, smaller size food also is easier on the fish when it gets cold.

Second, don't feed beyond what the fish will eat, especially if you have fertile water. Too much uneaten food can cause problems. Bob Lusk says to stop feeding when the water temp drops below 46 degrees because the fish don't eat much at that point.

Today my fish fed readily, as the water was 62 degrees. But that's going to change this week after the front moves through, and I may have to stop feeding altogether.

Third, whenever you stock the CNBG (and hopefully RES and FHM), let them spawn before stocking LMB. You want a ton of forage for the LMB for maximum growth.

Good luck!

Lp, I have only a little over a yr's experience in ponds in E. Texas but I can say this. Surface water temps at my place are running 65 degrees but last yr at this time water temp was running 51 degrees. the CNBG feed in both situations and so I would add them along with some RES asap. Last yr in late Feb. the water surface temp dropped to 42 for two days and then right back to 51 so I feed all yr long with now problems that I could see. I now have cnbg in the 8" or better size in a little over 1 yr. I hope this helps. Overtons supplied the CNBG so I am guessing OTS CNBG

Tracy

Give Overton's a call and see what input they have (Todd's number (979) 571-9481). I restocked mine a month or two ago. Not sure what "best" is....but was hoping to catch a spring spawn by stocking now.

Sean

Thanks Ant & Tracy, you both mentioned that I should also stock RES along with CNBG, What is the reason for that?

A little background info... The pond is 40 yrs old about .5 ac has LMB, the larger ones being in the 10-12" range. Abundant BG in 6" range, don't know when either of them were stocked. And about 25 CC that I stocked last spring. I also stocked 8lbs of Tilapia last spring to see if they would clean up the pond a bit, didn't see much difference. Initially they were growing and spawning like crazy, and I could see areas in the shallows that were cleaned down to the sandy bottom, but by late summer, they were harder to spot. I did have a 6-7' gator take up residence in summer along with 3 - 3' juveniles. Wonder if they cleaned out my tilapia?

I have 3 boys that like fishing, and can catch BG left n right, but the BG we have don't seem to get much bigger than 6" thats why Im thinking CNBG. To see if we can grow'em bigger for the dinner table.

RES eat snails, among other things. Snails are part of the life cycle of some worms that get into fish (grubs). By stocking RES you minimize the chance of getting worms in your fish.

Sean

In my opinion it sounds like your problem, (smaller bluegills), may lie somewhere other than the particular strain of fish you currently have. Either northern or CNBG should achieve a size larger than 6". The pond is 40 years old, is it possible that the BG are stunted? I think an infusion of fresh genetics is generally beneficial, but if there are simply too many bluegills already present, then I doubt if better genetics will yield the results you are hoping for.

CNBG range is about the north line of AR. North of that the growth performance starts to be reduced.

I dont think my BG are stunted, on another post I asked for the groups opinion, and most thought they were native mature BG, just adapted to the conditions of a non managed pond. My thinking is to put in CNBG, and just fish out the smaller BG. I plan to get a feeder as well. At some point I would imagine the CNBG would become more abundant than the BG? I was just curious if now was a good time of year to put them in.

Heres a pic of the BG in my pond.

+1 I am not a pro but the pics to me are not of Wr 100% BG.

They look like BG from any native BOW in this area. I think that if you feed 'em a good food, they will get larger. I think the limiting thing in the pond is food for them.

If not feeding, removing a bunch will leave more food for the rest, but that will be detrimental to your LMB population.

L's if you add cnbg to your pond with native bg you will not maintain pure strain cnbg. They will cross and thus subsequent generations will have crossed genetics.

Feed them. In my opinion adding additional mouths to feed into the mix, CNBG or not, will only serve to worsen the problem.

Even the best BG genetics available will disappoint in the absence of food. Number one on my list would be the implementation of a supplemental feeding program, and give that some time to work.

I've mentioned before, and this is just me talking, that genetics are the icing on the cake...lay the proper foundation first, to reap the maximum possible benefits of a particular strain or genetics.

Cray, could this lake be acidic?

L reports "LMB, the larger ones being in the 10-12" range"...

Abundant small BG and small LMB?

I think if large bluegill are the goal, lots of small bass are needed...so sounds like he has right makeup of fish....just not enough for them to eat.

Removing bass 14" or larger is the normal plan for large BG.

Sean

Agree but I don't understand why BOTH his BG and LMB are small. Typically, small LMB means too many bass and not enough to eat. In this case, it seems there is an abundance of small BG for the LMB to eat yet the LMB are small. I would think his LMB should be big and fat.

How many bluegills, say 3-4", are present? Those are the size that will feed those 12" bass, not the 6+ fish. I still think the BG in the photos appear old....maybe the smaller forage BG are being hammered by the bass, and there isn't enough appropriate forage for the overly abundant 6+ gills?

I don't know the ph, but it is very high in tannins. It has a look of strong tea. So my guess is yes.

Maybe the BG are not as abundant as all that. When I do feed I see some come around, maybe a dozen or so, all appear to be 6" or smaller. but nothing like I see on some of these feeding videos were its a frenzy. I know they are not used to being fed pellets and maybe thats why I dont see more of them.

As for the LMB Im no expert but they look healthy to me, not stunted, but not fat either or too skinny. I rarely see small bass (under 7"-8") swimming around. There is quite a bit of vegetation as well maybe 25 - 30%.

The guy we bought the place from is in his 70's. Rarely came to the property and would not surprise me if the last time he stocked it was over 7-8 years ago.

If I put in some OTS CNBG, Im alright if they cross with my BG if it will benefit the genetics and average size overall of our catch. Not looking for trophy CNBG, just dont want to have to catch 15 of em to make a meal, haha.

I'm wondering if those gators you reported are the wild card in this discussion. I would think they would target the largest fish. Are they gone? Any plan to prevent them from getting into the pond in the future?

Aside from the HBG pond, our other ponds haven't had any BG stocked in almost 40 years. Still healthy, viable populations in all of them, with sizes ranging from fry up to nearly 11". My point is that genetics are important, but I believe they are trumped by good water quality, plenty of food, and appropriate predation and/or harvest.

As I've stated, there is usually nothing wrong with adding fresh genetics responsibly, but the basics need to be in place first. The mindset of adding a "superior bluegill" and expecting it to solve a pond's issues is exactly why HBG got a bad rap in the first place.

I don't believe in a magic bullet bluegill of any strain or genetics. You cannot simply add them, forget them, and expect great results. Certainly not long term. Implementing a sound management strategy/plan is needed to realize the full potential.

1) If an e-shock survey hasn't been done, how do we know for sure that there aren't bigger LMB in there that are VERY hook shy and can't be caught on a rod and reel?

2) Look at the size of the LMB being caught. Are there plenty of 3"-4" BG to feed them so they can jump to eating 5"-6" BG? Or are the majority of smaller BG getting eaten by the smaller LMB and larger BG before they get to that 4" size, not allowing the LMB to get enough food of the correct size to get bigger? (expending more calories per mouthful than getting in return) Remember, figure on 20-30 BG per LMB if the goal is to grow large LMB, if the goal is to grow large BG, then don't worry about the LMB and get the BG on a good feeding program.

I think that adding CNBG can't hurt, but they have to be adults so they aren't eaten by the LMB. You could feed the BG this upcoming year, and make a determination this Fall if adding CNBG would be warranted after you see how the existing BG grow during a good consistent feeding program. i.e. fed every day and getting fed a good quality food.

Bill, it's definitely possible that the gators have targeted the larger LMB. My closest neighbor, used to mow the pastures here for the previous owner and warned us of their presence, so they seems to be regular summer visitors. They are not here now, but I do have a plan to remove them on first sight next spring.

Sprkplug, you have BG that were stocked 40yrs ago and grow to 11"? Have you fed them consistently or did they grow to that size on their own? I'm thinking if my BG were stocked over 10 years ago or more and never pellet fed, its possible that mother nature decided that their optimal size for the given habitat/situation is 6". Im sure if I start a feeding program that future generations would start to grow larger, but we could be talking another 8-10 years? Im thinking I can infuse better genes with CNBG and with a feeding program, I can get to a more desirable catch size within a year or two.

That's correct. I began feeding some of the native BG ponds 4 yrs ago, but still have one pond that is not on feed. And it produces consistent 9-11" fish.

L's, to add to what has already been recommended, if overcrowding of BG is the reason you have small BG, adding additional CNBG (even if their genetics are superior) is only going to add to the overcrowding problem. If genetics is the problem (which as sprkplug has indicated from his pond experience that to be unlikely) then the CNBG might help.

Point is, need to know what the problem really is before trying to fix it. You might only be adding to the problem rather than curing it.

In my very limited experience and mostly based on what I have read here on PBF, your problem of small BG is much more likely a need to remove some fish because there are too many for the BOW, rather than poor genetics. But I'm as far from an expert as you can get so take that advice with a grain of salt.

Stress like poor water quality or lack of food (a stressor also)are most often the problem. Genetics will not fix those problems. The keys are food , water quality and proper management especially proper harvest.