Pond Boss
Posted By: JKB Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 01:06 AM
Last June I was at a local fish farm and picked up some HBG.

Another guy was there getting some HBG and YP as well.

The manager said that the YP were all stunted this year due to overcrowding, they had too many. He also said they would overcome this stunting in short order once you put them in your pond and should grow normal.

He told me that he should have some nice ones by October, which would be 5 months of growth from the original stunted variety.

I snooped around the net and have not found any info that would indicate a stunted YP (if it really is stunted) would actually grow to normal proportions.

What do you think?
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 01:21 AM
FWIW I asked this same question in a more generic way *any kind of stunted fish" a few months back. The answer I received (to paraphrase) was they will recover to some degree but do not expect anything more than average fish at the end of the day.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 09:33 AM
The general consensus is -- you want fast growing well fed fish from the get go -- for optimum performance. That said, I had bluegills in a pond I was draining that were not on artificial feed, and had a body conformation that was significantly less than my typical feed trained hatchery fish I produce. In fact, looked rather thin. Add to this the pond was not fertilized and very clear. (These fish were unwanted reproduction due to bg escaping cage).

I gave several hundred to a friend for his new pond, and they seemed to have caught up as his biggest to date is 1 lb. 12 oz. Condello says he's seen them catch up too.

As you know "stunted" is a relative term. Their are severely stunted fish that are starved and their are fish that are a little smaller than they should be due to too much competition. I suspect the latter for the fish farm.

I once tried to get some severely stunted perch fingerlings to catch up in an RAS and they never did. Ended up pitching them.

I guess it "all depends." Some medium growth fish may out perform fast growing fish in the end as the fast growing fish may have a shorter lifespan. Then there's the fatty liver syndrome of fish that are heavily fed artifical feed.

Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 04:07 PM
Cecil does have quite a bit of experience with growth rates of fish. His advice is valid and sound. We have to realize that fish and many other animals have runt and larger potential individuals.

If we select two fairly similar individual or groups of fish from the same spawn at the beginning, both eating the same foods, but one gets minimal food and one gets well fed daily, one will grow slow and one will grow a lot faster. After one year, change the amount of the same food that each gets to each gets fed all it wants to eat. IMO the small slow growing fish will never get as big as the initial fast growing fish.

Both on the same diet, both fish should live similar life spans. This would be a very interesting study even worthy of an educational degree or project of some sort.
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 09:55 PM
Thanks for the feedback...

I called today and they have 4"-5" available right now and will be getting in 5"-7" soon. I did not ask what "getting in" meant, but may wrongly assume they don't have any on the farm.

I read some stuff from the MDNR and they stated that a truly stunted YP will rarely get over 6" in length it's entire life, but hey, they are still good eats!

I'll call another farm close by and see what they have available. Sure don't want to get stuck with "growth challenged" fish.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 10:43 PM
I had a great response to Bill agreeing with everything he said and telling him I couldn't have said it better, but must have been distracted and didn't click on submit. Lot's of things going on around here lately.

Any chance you'll say who this fish farm is JKB? If it's the same one I think it is up there, he gets his perch from one of two perch producers in Ohio
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/06/15 11:27 PM
Not gonna mention any names, but know who you are talking about, and that is who I was gonna call tomorrow. He's more of a fish broker now with holding ponds.

The other place actually produces a number of their fish, but have no specifics to share.

It seems like quite a few just move fish from place to place to sell. Kinda weird if you ask me, but that is how they make a buck these days.

Sure would be nice to have an honest to goodness hatchery up here.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/07/15 12:04 AM
JKB,

That's true just about anywhere anymore. Other than YP most fish farms in the midwest make regular trips to Arkansas for redears, bluegills, and largemouth bass and purchase them wholesale. At least many of the ones I know do and I've been told many others do.

Was told by a fish farmer from Colorado at the first Pond Boss convention it more profitable and less labor intensive. IIRR he said he has brisk business once or twice a year and then just coasts. No broodstock to feed, no ponds to aerate, and no seining.

Bob-O and I saw something really interesting at a fish farm in Ohio recently in the guy's circular holding tanks. He had a permanent net near the bottom of the tanks suspended like a false floor. Obiously when he needed to remove fish he just lifted up the net.
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/07/15 12:21 AM
That net thing was developed quite a while ago in Europe.

About 20 years ago I saw a system that utilized inflatable bladders in the tank to lift the fish out of the tank and run them down channels to the processing facility.

We're talking food fish tho.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/07/15 12:25 AM
JKB said "I read some stuff from the MDNR and they stated that a truly stunted YP will rarely get over 6" in length it's entire life....". MDNR did not explain their comment very well. IMO I think they meant that if conditions of food amounts do not increase the changes are slim of the YP ever getting over 6". Lack of food and probably competition are the limiting factors for features of stunted growth. If you take a stunted 6" YP and feed it all it is able to eat it will grow. "Truly stunted" likely means the conditions of the 6" YP do not change, thus it remains 6" in the conditions of 'stunted' environment. Disbelievers - try feeding a stunted 6"YP and see what happens. However the 6" YP may die of old age before it grows to 8" or 9".
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/07/15 12:53 AM
Good to know Bill - I think that is what they meant on the truly stunted, but that is on the big lake and not in someones pond or tank.

Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/07/15 03:38 AM
I was told the main reason perch grown in an ras were not successful for the foodmarket was costs were too high to compete with wild caught.

Otherwise they were the easiest species I've ever feed trained and grown in a tank. Even hardier than tilapia!
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/13/15 09:35 PM
4"-5", and ~7" to + available. These fish are from Minnesota. CS ran out (said he raises his own YP), but got some from a buddy in MN. Said a bunch are heading to Indiana but should have some left.

At least I didn't hear the word stunted, so I think I'll go that route.
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 12:37 PM
I've been catching 8" YP that were stocked this spring. These can't be very old. How big will YP get? (I have a feeder, that works about 50% of the time, plus a huge number of FHM in the pond.) I was hoping they would get a bit larger.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 12:49 PM
How big were they when you stocked them this spring?
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 01:19 PM
4" - 5".
So,, how large will YP get?
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
4" - 5".
So,, how large will YP get?


Look at Cecil's perch. Maybe he'll pop one on here for an update.
Posted By: JKB Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 10:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Any chance you'll say who this fish farm is JKB? If it's the same one I think it is up there, he gets his perch from one of two perch producers in Ohio


I talked to Dave today at SC in Grant. He has never purchased YP from Ohio. He get's all of his YP from Wisconsin and Minnesota.

He also said that there are no fish farms in the State of MI that hatch and produce YP fingerlings for pond stockers, they all come from another state.

Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/15/15 10:38 PM
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
4" - 5".
So,, how large will YP get?


That's good growth. If your perch are like mine the females will get into the 14 inch range with a few around 15 inches or slightly over. Contrary to all the fish stories out there (which they never seem to have the camera) it's very rare for a yellow perch to reach 16 inches or over. I've only had one do that. Never mounted one that big in the 30 plus years I've been doing taxidermy either.

Here's my only 16 incher (16 1/4) at 2 lbs.13 oz. (2.81lbs.) Apparently an anomaly. I caught her ice fishing in February. She may have gone 3 lbs. if I would have caught her when her eggs were at maximum size a month or too later.


Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/16/15 02:44 AM
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Any chance you'll say who this fish farm is JKB? If it's the same one I think it is up there, he gets his perch from one of two perch producers in Ohio


I talked to Dave today at SC in Grant. He has never purchased YP from Ohio. He get's all of his YP from Wisconsin and Minnesota.

He also said that there are no fish farms in the State of MI that hatch and produce YP fingerlings for pond stockers, they all come from another state.



Interesting.

The fish farms that I know of in Ohio got there original fish from one fish farm and those fish came from Lake Erie about 30 plus generations ago. I think the farmer's name was Brehm? Bill Cody knows more about it.

Cody note: The original YP grower of this strain was Rick Boleck. He hand picked the largest YP he could find from a commercial fisherman on Lk Erie.

Not sure if you're aware but Will Allen of Illinois has taken over Bell Aquaculture's perch hatchery and is producing out of season perch. They are considering bluegills next. Their perch are originally Lake Michigan fish. I may purchase some and cross them with my Lake Erie strain.
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/16/15 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
4" - 5".
So,, how large will YP get?


That's good growth. If your perch are like mine the females will get into the 14 inch range with a few around 15 inches or slightly over. Contrary to all the fish stories out there (which they never seem to have the camera) it's very rare for a yellow perch to reach 16 inches or over. I've only had one do that. Never mounted one that big in the 30 plus years I've been doing taxidermy either.

Here's my only 16 incher (16 1/4) at 2 lbs.13 oz. (2.81lbs.) Apparently an anomaly. I caught her ice fishing in February. She may have gone 3 lbs. if I would have caught her when her eggs were at maximum size a month or too later.


Thanks for the info. Maybe in a few years, I'll. Have some in the 12-13" range. That's a nice looking perch. Wow!
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/16/15 12:29 PM
Bill Cody, I got my perch from Laggis. He got them from ohio? What lake did their ancestors come from Michigan or Erie or elsewhere?
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/16/15 01:39 PM
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Bill Cody, I got my perch from Laggis. He got them from ohio? What lake did their ancestors come from Michigan or Erie or elsewhere?


That I can tell you. They come from Bill Lynch and the Mill Creek Perch Farm near Marysville, Ohio. (The Marysville, OH near Columbus, as there is more than one Marysville in Ohio.)

Original source: Lake Erie over three decades ago.
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Stunted YP ? - 10/16/15 02:08 PM
Thanks Cecil. Interesting to know that I have lake Erie genetics that go 30 years in my pond. I had better take good care of them, they are heirloom fish!!
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