Hey guys,

I wanted to start a thread , giving you updates about my fish breeding process. This sure is going to be an adventure.



First of all for those who might be interested, i want to share a little part of my correspondence with a professional hatchery manager from Kansas , Meade hatchery, Jason. These guys have to breed LMB under artificial conditions before spring, so the LMB aren't eaten by other early spawning fish.

Unlike some hatchery owners, this guy was able to answer my questions because they breed these fish , just like i am trying to do.




1- I don't want them to breed in a specific season or period. I need them to breed as soon and as frequent as possible. So what to do? Block all the sunlight and give them 14 hours of artificial lighting every day a set temperature to 75-80 F degrees. Is this gonna do it?

1) Largemouth bass (LMB) will only spawn in my understanding of them once a year. First thing that needs to happen is to "start the clock", that is they have to go through a winter period. They have to be held in water for a time where they would experience a winter event. Short days and cool temperatures. Mine go through that period in Kansas through the months of December-January in outdoor ponds. The ponds may even freeze over. I would think that they would have to be held in 40-45 degrees F. for a minimum of 30 day maybe more. They also have to be subjected to short days. When I bring them into my building they are in ambient water temperature at this time roughly 50F and the lights are controlled where they are experiencing 14 hours of darkness and 10 hours of light. When I want to start them spawning which is mid-March the water is warmed up to 70-71F and the lights are switched to 14 hours of light and 10 hours of dark. This is the mechanism to get them to spawn.

2- In ideal conditions how many times can i expect northern LMB to breed a year?

2) I would expect spawning one period of the year. A female may give you multiple spawns in a 10-14 day period but that would be it. If theydon't spawn they will reabsorb the eggs. Just as soon as they are through spawning the females start developing gametes for the next year's production. It takes quite a while for them to develop eggs and for the ovaries to enlarge with large amounts of ripe eggs for the next spawning event. In Kansas, in the wild it would be every late April through may event. Depending on when water temperatures would get to a constant 70F.

3- Is 700-800 hundred gals tank enough to get them to breed? I got 10 fishes(each 6-7 inch yet)

3) Your tanks would be big enough for spawning to take place. I would sex the fish so you only have one male in each tank. You cold put up to 2 females in each tank with the male. More than one male in that amount of space and all they would do is fight.

I truly believe you will not have any luck with spawning a 6"-7" fish. I only use fish that are at least 3 years old. That would put them in the 12"-16" range weighing around 1 to 1 1/4 pounds. I like them to be 5 years of age and weighing in the 2 1/2 to 3 pound range. Egg production is a function of the female size. I want to maximize my output by using as big of a female as I am comfortable holding in one of my raceways. I have 4 raceways and I have 25 females and 10 males in each one.


4- Is removing the eggs and hatching them myself a risky procedure? Maybe i should let them hatch in the main tank and then remove them. Good idea?

4) You want to move the eggs after seeing a spawn. This will induce the male to make another spawn. Your goal is to get as many spawns as you can. Also, by moving them you can treat them with H2O2 to kill all fungus that will develop on the eggs. You can incubate them at a constant water temperature of 70-72F and the eggs should hatch in 24 hours. In a pond situation in Kansas it might take 10 days. So keeping the temperature constant at 70-72F is in your best interest while eggs are incubating.




5- Should i order a spawning mat? Is it very crucial? What about using a clay surface?

5) You want to use a spawning mat. I would suggest making them out of Spawn-tex. Mine are 18" X 18" with a wire frame on the bottom where the Spawn-tex is stapled to the wire frame that is 1"X1" welded and coated wire. This helps the mats stay on the bottom and in place. Do not use a clay surface as that will impair the functioning of the micropyle of the eggs.








1st step was to get a tank(pool). At first i was planning to buy an inflatable tank. Then it turned out they weren't very durable. So, i decided to use constructional brick. I would make a frame with bricks and put nylon sheet in the middle of it to have a pool. Our bricks are very large and heavy.

But then i decided bricks would be hard to move, when i am done with them and i bought this steel frame pool. It is awesome !

1000 Gal water capacity ! You can see the obstacle on the middle part. I put it , so if one side of the pool is punctured, fish will survive on the other side.

Now , i need to make a filter , which irritates me... Let's see how it goes.

Hi Fatih,

How are the trees doing?

I salute you on the huge LMB effort you are undertaking. Hopefully, in a year or so you will have 100s or 1000s of hungry little LMB calling you Daddy. When will the pond be ready for you to stock them?

Regards,

Bill D.

Hey Fatih, good project ya got goin there. Hope it turns out as you hope it will.
I may have missed it if ya posted it but did ya or are ya going to post a thread about your trip here? Lots of people that helped and hosted you are surely anxious to see or hear what your thoughts on the trip are.

Bill, thanks man. I am afraid, according to that hatchery professional, there is no way i am breeding these fish the first year , but i will give a shot. As Scott closely knows i was in land flipping business. It was great. I had started looking for a land too.

Last year flipping business collapsed. So , i am having little financial crisis getting my money out of that job but i am guessing i will have a land in a year perhaps.



Bob, i am pretty sure i shared a final post on that thread. And i remember you even responded . CRS kicking in?

Fatih,

I'll be sending you pictures of how to build both a bio and mechanical filter very soon, but the shape of your tank and the fact it doesn't have a center drain is not optimum.

That said we all have to work with what we have, and you can make it work if you don't mind vacuuming out some settleable solids.

Just set up my fourth high school system and we're adding on to the house so I've been a little busy.

What is the height of your tank and do you have access to plastic barrels?

Cecil,

I know you have been busy man. No problem at all. Sincerely...

Cecil , i didn't have lot's of options for the pool. "Settleable solids" ? What does that mean?


I can get such a thing. Works?



I am building it this Thursday.

What kind of pump to get?

For your size tank I would get one of these for moving the water:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/PONDMASTER-Model-9-5-Supreme-950-GPH-Mag-Drive-Pond-Pump-w-Solution-02710/351407382243?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33601%26meid%3Db567226a376946119e5c1b5fc3568cfd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D311043589783

You will also need an air pump to aerate the fish tank and the biomedia.

I would suggest one that produces 60 liters per minute like one of these:

http://www.bluewaterpumps.com/air-pumps.php


You will need to build two filters: one that filters out suspended solids and settleable solids that get sucked into the siphon before they settle, and one that detoxifies the ammonia that is primarily given off By the fish's gills.

Suspended solids: solids that consist of fecal material and uneaten feed that stay suspended in the water column due to a lower specif gravity than the water.

Settleable solids: same as above but heavy enough to settle on the bottom.

Fatih,

Since you have not started a pond yet, what is you plan for raising the young LMB once you get a spawn? More tanks?

Bill D.

Fath,

What is the height of your fish tank and the barrels?

If I recall correctly, CRS kicked in quite sometime ago. Hope I enjoyed yer post.

Did I miss something here?

Bill, thanks man. I am afraid, according to that hatchery professional, there is no way i am breeding these fish the first year , but i will give a shot. As Scott closely knows i was in land flipping business. It was great. I had started looking for a land too.

Last year flipping business collapsed. So , i am having little financial crisis getting my money out of that job but i am guessing i will have a land in a year perhaps.



Bob, i am pretty sure i shared a final post on that thread. And i remember you even responded smile . CRS kicking in?

Fatih, follow exactly what Cecil is telling you to do. Don't rush through it, thinking that you don't have to do it that way. He's done this a number of times and you can learn from his mistakes.

This will all take time, especially for the filter to get functioning and populated with bacteria. It WONT happen overnight, and there's no way that you can speed up the process any faster than what he's telling you to do. If you try to shortcut what he says, the fish will die.

Settlable solids are fish poop and uneaten food that falls to the bottom.

A round tank makes cleaning up the bottom a lot easier.

Fish swim in their own toilet. If you don't clean the bottom, it will be a LOT harder to keep the water quality good, and you will have problems keeping the fish alive.

Bill, i don't have a plan yet. Scott thinks i should keep all the LMB for myself and even market them. But i don't think people will want to pay for them, as there are no pond owners here. Instead , i want to be the guy who introduced LMB to Turkey. Couple interviews on magazines would be cool too hehe. I know you will now tell me about your worries of LMB overtaking the lakes , killing the local fish but no... All we have is stupid carp. Stupid? I love catching them though .


Cecil, today i bought a barrel and plastic basket today. See this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt6eMowvuD8 This is the most common type of filter. Seems easy too. Do you have a better idea? The problem is i don't know what media to fill the filter.


I can buy some of these. It is called , biological and mechanical sponge. What else?







Scott... Yes sir !

Fatih, without doing extensive biological studies of the native fish population, I strongly advise against releasing any of the LMB into public water (we talked about this once already). We have a huge problem here with invasive species - which are species that out compete native species and cause problems.

Don't take it upon yourself to release the LMB into public water - you might be known as the guy who screwed up Turkeys fish biological balance forever. Your magazine/TV interview might instead be "Here's the guy who screwed things up."

re: the filter. If you want to repeat all the mistakes that have happened previously by other filter builders, go ahead and build a filter from a you tube video.

If I was in your situation, I would listen to what Cecil says and build it exactly as he says, not ask him for advice, and then go find something on youtube and do it that way, discounting what he said. Cecil has tried many different variations of filters over the years, and has found what works the best with the least amount of work to keep it functioning properly.

Do whatever it takes to purchase this book asap and get it in your hands. Read it like it was a text book and you had to memorize it to pass your final exam.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Scale-Aquacu...ale+aquaculture

This is the deer netting that Cecil used in one of his filters. I don't know if he's still using this method or not.
http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Gardener-6050...ds=deer+netting

He also built a filter called a moving bed filter. I believe he used material like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Aquaponics-Aquacul...words=bio+balls

Before you do anything else, I'd wait and see what Cecil has to say about the filters.

Remember, once you have the filter built, it will take a few weeks (it could be 6 weeks) for it to be populated by bacteria and fully functioning.

Here is the plastic media I use:

http://alliedaqua.com/moving-bed-bio-media.html

You can use up to four cubic feet in a 55 gallon (208.2 liters) drum. 7.49 gal (28.4 liters equals one cubic foot.)

You may have to settle on kaldness K1 in your region as it's used extensively in Europe. Unfortunately over twice as much in prices as the media above and not as much surface area.

OTH you may want try something different and if you fish load is small you might be able to pull it off.

Yes still use the deer fence netting and a siphon. KISS principal and cheaper too.

Fatih,

I thin that would work for a biofilter but you will also need a mechanical filter.

We don't have that particular biomedia here but i bought ceramics, which is very similar.

Cecil, i am basically making a large canister filter. Both mechanical and biological filtration will be in the same barrel. I bought pot scrubbies and more importantly polyfiber. I might get some sponge too.

I will get my pump tomorrow and hopefully start running the filter.

After 5 days of struggling my filter is ready to go guys . It has been running for 3 days indeed.

Here we go...

I bought my barrel and went to pool equipment place. The guy knew someone i knew. Otherwise they wouldn't waste 1 minute of their life to help me build the filter .




Conventional filter system...






Layers of the filter:

This grill is a part of a fish cage. I used it , so layers would not clog the outlet.







Ceramic rings. Very popular for biological filtration here. I used that mesh we use to keep our potatoes and onions. By the way i know i don't have enough of some materials but i will buy more soon.










When i started pumping the water in the filter , everything started coming up, floating. Oh, it was a nightmare. So i had to find something to put on the layers to keep them down and so i welded some constructional iron. Worked perfect !








I was gonna use a conventional pool filter but then Cecil told me , it wouldn't stand fish waste. So i bought this pump you will see in the video. It is small but god it is verrrrry powerful.


By the way , in the beginning there was only 1 outlet pipe but it wasn't enough. Water spilled out. So i needed another pipe. This was verrry irritating.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llFvtiVs394&feature=youtu.be

Just remember that everything that is steel inside the filter will rust.........

Can you say a positive word about my work Scott, for God's sake? Haha.

I know, and it already rusted to a degree now but will it harm the fish?

Fatih,

Good to see you are keeping at it and if you persist you will figure out what will work for you with what you have to work with. Been there done that! Don't give up!

In the mean time read as much as you can on the Internet and books on what others do, and have done, so you can take something away from them or improve on it.

Remember the concept of keeping fish alive and growing in a tank is actually quite simple:

1. Good quality water to start with and for makeup water.
2. Sufficient oxygen
3. A way to remove both suspended waste and setteable waste on a regular basis.
4. A surface area for aerobic bacteria to grow on to oxidize the ammonia that is given off by the fishes gills and excretement.

As far as your pipe not handling all the flow -- been there done that! Upgraded to a two inch pipe (50.8 mm) from a 1.5 (38.2 mm) for the overflow from my media bed barrels as the media, although hollow, was blocking the screened exit pipe just enough to back up water.

I have found 2 inch (50.8 mm) the best size for all my unpressurized flow, and 3 inch (76.2 mm) the best size for my center drain and external standpipe.

To drain my clarifier tank I use 1.5 inch (38.2 mm)plastic hose. To pump water from the the top of my clarifier to the bottom of my biofilter tank I use 1 inch hose. (25.4 mm)

All my airlines are 1/2 inch hose. (12.7 mm)

Fatih,

I love your passion for these fish and I admire the lengths you have gone to. Very impressive.

I continue to wish you the best of luck.

Cmm

Fatih, you're a man on a mission, that's for sure!

I'm not familiar with canister filters and was wondering how you clean it out when the time comes?

Hmmmm........ Lets see... Congrats on convincing the guys to put it together for you?

I'm glad to see you continue to try to achieve your goals. I have faith that you'll get it done.

I don't think the iron will rust enough to harm the fish. You will be doing some partial water changes anyway. I'd bet Cecil has more PPM of iron in his water than you will have from those pieces in there.

Cecil , thanks man. Are you seeing anything wrong in this system?(other than mechanical and biological filtration being in the same barrel)


Kim, thank you . Without breeding these animals all my effort gonna be useless.

Phil , thanks man. Cleaning it? Just get all the layers out and wash them. Why?

Thanks Scott, hearing couple good stuff from you is better than hearing it from anyone else, since you like telling me i am on the wrong way, haha . I know i wasn't mostly on the right way anyways.

Why? - Because that could be a lot of work, and you will never be able to clean it like new again. You only have 10 fish in 1000 gallons, so it shouldn't be too bad.

Let's see how this goes.

Probably want to get some sort of pump and use it like a vacuum to suck all the stuff off the bottom when it starts to accumulate.

Can you get a second barrel for settling?

He could build something like this:


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?141689-DIY-Radial-Flow-Settler

BTW here's a really cool DIY S & G filter that is used as a secondary filter in some koi ponds to produce gin clear water. I like how he cleans the solids out too.


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?68132-Birdman-s-Sand-Gravel-Filter&highlight=Birdman%27s+Filter

Maybe but I have a DIY iron filter I came up with that produces gin clear water for my make up water. But it looks horrible before I oxidize the iron and filter it out! (2.5 mg/L)

I also heat my make up water with a 250 watt heater so it's the same as the receiving fish tanks.

Thanks guys. Good to know, iron is safe.

The reason, i can't get 2 barrels is a- Technical part is much more difficult. Leaking is more likely, which would result in a disaster. I am living 1 mile away from these pools. I can't check them all the time.
b- I have some limits. I will have couple more pools and i can't get 2 barrel filters for each.

I got a question. Temperatures dropped and my LMB started to eat much less. Is this normal?

By the way i have a bad news. All of the cats and most of the BG's are dead. I don't know what happened. It was very sudden. They were kept in an outdoor pond which i was aerating , so they would have sufficient oxygen and they were very happy. I am very sad but all the LMB and some BG's are still alive, which are the 2 species i needed more than any other fish.

Lower temps mean slower metabolism and less food intake. Very normal. Sorry to hear about the losses.

Guys can you tell me your opinion of this 3 incher CNBG. I know it is hard to tell yet but just choose one.

Well, both fish in the pics look frightened

Next limiting factors behind oxygen are ammonia and nitrites. Were you checking them?

Looks healthy.

There's a war going on next door!

Hang in there Fatih. Looking healthy so far. Takes time to grow them big. Little Tuna may have to wait for a couple years for his first CNBG sandwich!

What's the status on the LMB?

Oh, I don't think they really care about that now.

Guys , i recomposed my previous post a couple of times. And finally , apparently i forgot to add "What sex is this fish?" .

Again, probably hard to tell but just tell me your opinion.


Bill, LMB are very well.

To early to tell. I could guess, but I'd only have a 50% chance of getting it right.

I would say the one on top is female based on the attraction to bright shiny things. The one on the bottom has a Bart Simpson look going on, so that ones probably male.

And he's the expert. I'd probably get it right less often than that.

There are many reasons why I love this forum, but that right there is certainly one of them!

Thanks, FNC!

(it's the little things )