I finally got back up to the pond on Saturday, after two weeks away. The water level had dropped 6 3/4". I had placed a 5 gal bucket, full of water, on the dam, to compare evaporation rates. (Thanks to Rainman suggestion.) the bucket had dropped 2". The weather site says we've had .87" of rain in the last two weeks.
Down behind the dam I see two trickles of water. One coming out next to the drainpipe, and one in the original ditch/wash bottom at the very base back of the dam. This pic shows it, but it's hard to see. On the left side of the pipe..



How concerned should I be? I don't have a contractor I can go back to, just me. Any chance these will "self seal"? If not what solutions can you guys recommend? Each is a small trickle of water. If I look close enough, I can see movement or flow.
I've also got what I'm pretty sure is duck weed. I pulled a couple and took this pic.


Right now it's pretty hard to find, but it's showing up almost all the way around the one acre pond. How serious can it get? Should I try to kill it now, before it actually gets started, if so, what's the best way.

Also noticed a brown algae across the top of the water. Fortunately a south wind came up and moved it all down by the dam, so I could still swim.
Any suggestions? FYI, I still have at least 2' visibility in the brownish, greenish water.



And last but not least. I should not have bought the AquaPro feeder. It had not been running at all for the two weeks I was gone. It looks like something is wrong with the new and supposedly improved timer. I'll find out more today.

Looks like I'm switching modes from the building mode, to the ownership mode. The leaks have kept me up most of the night though..

Jeff

That leak around the pipe concerns me. Water moving through the dam by any means other than a pipe is troubling in my opinion. Are those rocks visible in the photo throughout the dam itself, core and all?

That does look like duckweed to me. If so, it most certainly can cover the entire pond surface, given time.

One neighbor said that if there is no soil washing out of the leak, then no worries apart from loosing water. It likely wont self seal though, perhaps lessen over time. You could try those polymer sealant products.

Dont bother with duckweed control with chemicals, it will be a constant battle. It is there because there are excess nutrients in your water. Plant some desirable vegetation to absorb the excess and add some fish that eat the stuff to keep it at bay. Cut back on the feeding.

I have Koi though there may be some better choices. I tried putting some DW in while feeding my perch, and the Koi ignored it until the fish food was gone. Then it was down the hatch! (I have an ample supply in a garden pond in need of work)

Good luck!

If you want to get control of the DW, you might try Clipper for spot treatment, or Sonar if you're willing to go all in. Be aware that Sonar will likely do a number on other, possibly more benign plants as well. And, something, most likely FA, will probably move in once the DW is gone.

Your drain pipe is not corrugated, that give water a straight shot to the back of the dam. Also what size overflow pipe is that?

The pipe is a 12" sewer pipe. Fairly expensive. There are two seep collars on it, and the collars were properly put in place with sealant, then a radiator type clamp around the base of the collar. The water must be tracking around the collars. We packed clay very tightly around both collars with a sledge.

There is rock throughout the dam. I tried to follow the dozers an throw as much rock as I could to the back of the dam, but there was too much. It does show up more on the back though, because I threw so many back there.
I almost pulled the plug during construction due to all the rock. One of the three dozer operators said if it was his pond, he would stop construction due to the rock. I made the decision to push forward. The rock played havoc with the sheeps head roller. It continually clogged up the roller,and the rocks had to be pried out. They did try to have cleaner clay in the core. There is certainly no dirt or clay coming out in the seep.

Does water depth make any difference to duck weed? I've got fairly steep banks for most of the pond, not much shallow areas. I also haven't planted anything else that would be killed off by any spraying. All the fescue and weeds that had grown up on the banks as it filled, died off after being submerged. As a matter of fact there is a dead zone where the water level has dropped. The old fescue is pretty much non existent any more.

Here's the heaviest concentration of duck weed.. Still not much, I'd like to stop it before it takes off.



I'm not feeding any more, as the feeder isn't working, and hasn't for two weeks. I did toss some feed by hand early yesterday morning and the YP hit it pretty well, along with about a million FHM.

Let the algae run it's course?

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff, you knew my concerns about them building the dam, then cutting into it to install the pipe and not being able to compact the area around the pipe with the sheepsfoot or a jumping jack type compactor.....

Duckweed can be spot sprayed with Clipper.

I feel your pain with the AquaPro feeder. I have 2 of them here that I don't use anymore, and one even has a Texas Hunter timer wired in place instead of the AquaPro timer.

That's why I sell the Texas Hunter feeders - they are pretty bulletproof.

Feeder failures are why I sell TH also.

I completely disagree with liquidsquid (no offense, LSq!) on the reasons for the DW...it needs treating immediately, before seeding, and IF seen again, treated. Algae is the never ending battle due to nutrients. Jeff, in your pond, there really are zero concerns on that algae bloom you are seeing...I can't count all the ponds I have seen this year getting hit with the browns.

Knowing your pond pretty well, from being there, the leak is not concerning me TOO much either. It IS going to need to be addressed, but with the water loss, and only a guess on waterfall, the loss is pretty minor in a "still new" pond!

Don't get depressed yet on what's going on....wait till I bill you for that!

While no leak is good those leaks are relatively minor. If you have a hard time seeing a trickle i'd imagine you are losing less than a gallon a minute. Your evaporation loss is probably around 5-10gpm.

Algae in the pond is like dust in the air - always present.

Thanks all..
I was losing sleep over the leaks.. Looking at them, I'd say it would take a while to fill a gallon jug.
Then the algae was bugging me, Because I really like swimming in the pond.

The duck weed I thought was minor, looks like I need to address it first.

The feeder is "totally my fault" I tried to save a few bucks.. Just plain dumb. Especially when you factor in feed prices. Live and learn.

I TRIED smacking you upside the head on the feeder, but had no step-ladder around to get my short butt, 6'5" off the ground! lol

I agree, the DW is first to address, feeder as you can but no "emergency" with still young fish, and the leak(s) will require solid planning....I still think you only have a pipe installation issue....I never said much, but also never liked how it was installed from the first day I saw it....

Cost may not be good, but in all honesty, are no where near as bad as what you may fear.

Address duckweed ASAP - make it priority 1.

FA will come and go, when you get beneficial macrophytes established the available nutrient load will be low and FA won't compete well - in short, it will handle itself over time. If necessary propagate some beneficial cultivars of emergents soon - dwarf hybrid lillies, arrowhead, sedges, rushes, etc. Pondweeds will come soon, maybe by next year. In the meantime, get rake or long handle net and remove it manually. It will disrupt the cycle of growing, dying, and decomposing and adding nutrients back to the water.

Monitor leaks - sounds minimal - spot treatment of sealant is always an option. Call me if you need to walk through solutions.

AP feeders are what they are - save your pennies and go TH and never look back.

The only reason I say fighting DW is futile is it rides in on everything, turtles, ducks, frogs, geese, etc. If you have an investment pond or swamp nearby. In my big pond, it doesn't last a second due to the Koi and low nutrients. My garden pond is the other way around. Heavy nutrients, DW from hell, and too small for Koi. Rake it all out and it is back full coverage in a few days.

No offense taken whatsoever, as with everything to do with ponds, it depends. Many of you have far more experience than I do with these things, so take my advice with some salt, thus my signature.

I've not had that bad experience with it, liquidsquid. I agree that if other nearby ponds (~1/4 mile or less away) have it, it can be a long term fight, but, fought in small infrequent battles if approached correctly.

Was up at the pond today. The leak is worse than I thought.
Here's the back of the dam. We had to move a lot of dirt..


I'll try to upload a video of the leak. I'd say it's more like a gallon or two per min, vs what I originally said, which was a few minutes per gallon..

Here's the video, if it works. I've never tried to link in a video.

[img:center]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280...D83F1B71AA1.mp4[/img]

Here's the other leak, if it works. The video is too close. There's no perspective. The video makes it look worse than it is.
[img:center]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280...AA850386BF6.mp4[/img]

For what it's worth. I have also found the source of the DW.. It's unbelievably thick. This is the small "sink hole" pond that's up above the new pond. This one is very small 30'x30'

I'll stand pat with what I said earlier, that being water moving through the dam by any means other than a pipe is bad news. Maybe get with TJ and see what he recommends?

The sinkhole pond.....any chance of draining that sucker permanently, and drying it out?

I have no experience with fixing a leak like you have, but this is what I see in my minds eye as possibilities. My mind may need glasses so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The leak that close to the overflow pipe seems like the anti-seep collars are not working or not installed properly or compacted properly or something. Looks like water following near the path of the pipe.

If you are lucky, the leak originates right at the area of the entrance to the overflow pipe. If you are lucky. If it originates lower in the dam, not so lucky.

I say that, because if the leak originates from full pool level where the water is flowing under the lower edge of the pipe, down along the pipe, and out the bottom - that means the leak originates very high on the dam face. The easiest place to fix.

If that is the case a person could lower the pond level by several feet, backhoe out the pipe being careful to keep enough dirt between the water level so the dam is not breached, fix what is wrong and properly compact the pipe and collars back in, and let the pond refill. I'm not a professional. That is just the way this farmer would approach it. Not a recommendation.

Can you pump the pond a few feet down and not hurt anything? If you pump it down and kind of watch the leak periodically as the pond lowers, if the leak stops when the pond is lower two or there feet, that would tell you the source of water was from up high.

Just an idea.

Edit: Might have to backhoe out the upper part, put in an additional collar, haul in some good clay to compact back in the repaired area??????? Just ideas. To be shot down by those that know more and have actual experience.

I don't know his area so this might not apply. He may have natural sinkholes and ours are usually associated with old underground mines so may be different. In our area, any sinkhole that is filled with water generally is associated with some shallow groundwater underneath. Very difficult to drain without digging it out and plugging the source. Government has been doing a bunch of it in the area as funds are available for years and years.

The other thing about draining it, if it is a natural hole and not man made, anything drained that contains water plants without the blessing of several government agencies is an invitation to many thousands of dollars of fines a day if the wrong environmental robo-cop type person sees the disturbance on aerial photo and files a complaint. Draining wetlands is a definite no-no, without permission and usually remediation (creating another wetland to offset the loss of the original). Many examples over the years of landowners draining a low spot to build a house or clear an area and getting in lots of hot water.

True, but he stated it was up above the new pond site, so I wouldn't think he could've got the ok to build his pond if it was a sensitive area. If it were on my property, I would probably try filling it in. For every one situation big brother makes an example out of, there are thousands more that get done with no problems. I like those odds.

Let's burn some diesel.

The way this pond was built, was solid. The rock in the dam I have seen is not porous or sand stone, so it was good substrate fill with sheepsfoot compaction. How the drain pipe was added later, and having personally seen a large void under the pipe where no clay had been makes me positive the leak runs the full length of the pipe, and around the 2 seep collars installed. I have no doubt the "fix" will be digging up and proper reinstallation of an overflow....Not the cheapest fix, but way less than most redo's.

Sparky, in this area, no permission or pond permits required at all, unless at a federal level due to acre/feet of water retained, or toe height of the dam exceeding 32 feet.

Jeff, tell the brothers you have a place for some waste fill...the sink hole....

Jeff, if you don't want to partially drain, dig out the drain pipe and replace with proper compaction, don't mess around; get in touch with TJ asap.

I'd hate for you to come out one weekend and see a large gap where the drain pipe was, and have it all wadded up on the neighbors property, with a large chunk of the dam washed there too, along with the fish and water....

The cost of doing either fix is MUCH less then if you have to repair a washed out dam. Think of it as a cheap insurance policy. In my opinion, the longer the leak is there, the more fine dirt is washed out, making the leak worse. I think that's why you are seeing it getting larger.....

Compared to the money that has already been spent, protect your investment. Need I bring up the fish feeder?

The problem with a blow out is that the dam soils go with the water. Mixing and knitting new dirt with the existing stuff is always iffy.

Perfect! Throttle up.

I've hesitated to weigh in because leaks around overflow pipes .. it's a sensitive topic. But I will share my experience. I lost a dam, the water and the fish. The pipe wasn't properly installed, water leaked around it, down the outside of the pipe. The pond filled within a month of dam completion and I supposed it hadn't had any time to settle which may have helped. When water got to the overflow pipe, it washed the pipe out. I would not leave any leakage around the outside of the pipe. That says the pipe was not properly installed. For your own peace of mind, get it sealed properly.

Went down to the pond this morning before heading to work. The leak by the pipe is back down to a very small trickle. Have to look closely to see the movement of water.
The water is still up about half way around the pipe on the inlet side.
That tells me that the leak is near the midpoint of the pipe.. I'm as green about all this stuff as can be though.

Hand fed the YP.. Man it's fun to see them hit the feed. It's nice to see something going like it's supposed to!

JMO and I'm sure you've been in touch with TJ, but why not buy one unit of SoilFloc and apply it in small amounts over a length of time? Maybe apply a tenth of a unit on the pond side of the drain pipe where the leak is most likely and then repeat that process ten times. Maybe I'm picturing this all wrong but it seems like the source of your leak can only be in a small area. Worst case you're out a few hundred dollars.

I still haven't talked with TJ. I will.
We've got too much going on with life right now. I'm just hoping I don't have some catastrophic failure in the next few weeks.

This lower flow only confirms my first "sure" thoughts......the pipe compaction (or lack of) was the culprit.

Time for another first for you, setterguy, pray for LIGHT rains now...lol

My friend had the same issue on a pond built last Summer - we received heavy rains this Spring and it filled 8' to spillway in a couple days. He noticed a small leak around his drain pipe, despite installation of two anti seep collars, we think it was due to lack of hand compaction around the tube.

He applied a cup or two of the linear and crosslink polymer sealant around the tube that I had leftover from my initial project, packed with some clay, and the fissure sealed in a few hours. I had never read about the polymer being used in this manner before, but I was happy it worked for him.

I still urged him to contact the contractor, have him return, and hand tamp the clay surrounding the tube as it should have been performed initially. I think that's happening this Fall.

Jeff feel free to call me, I may have some product left I could probably just mail to you for free considering how little you'd need. Anything to help a PB member - leaking ponds are a nightmare!

Looks like an easy fix to me. drain the pond down below the inlet pipe and dig it out. Put a new corrugated pipe in that just goes straight thru the dam instead of bringing it clear down to the bottom of the dam.

Now your only problem is channeling the water out the overflow pipe. I use rocks to prevent erosion. If this is your fix consider yourself very fortunate.

Pretty sure the plan is..... removing the pipe as currently installed, compacting the piped area properly, reusing/adding to the original pipe and creating a new bottom draw, automatic siphon system that will be leak free.

The guys that put in the pipe went by the pond over the weekend and packed in a bentonite slurry around the entrance to the pipe.
The water level had dropped another inch or so.
I went down behind the dam yesterday. Zero water coming out beside the pipe. I suspect it has as much to do with the water level dropping to just covering the bottom half of the pipe entrance into the dam, as the bentonite slurry.
The othe leak has almost stopped too. That tells me, it must start up pretty high on the sam also.
I'm just going to wait and see what happens with the next rain..

Keep an eye on it. As far as I can remember, Bentonite has never been a permanent fix. It lasts for a year, maybe two. Talk to Dave Davidson.

Thanks for the heads up.. You know me, I'll be worrying,, and watching.

Went back to the pond Sunday. Water has dropped an additional 6 1/2 inches in the last three weeks. The good news is, the comparison bucket I placed on the dam had lost 4 1/2 inches in the same time period. There is no seep by the drain pipe, and the seep at the base of the dam coming through the original creek bed has all but stopped. There is still moisture there, but I could find no current, or trickle.
Duckweed is gone. Water clarity is better, and the water has gone from a brownish tint, to a greenish tint.
The pipe is still a major concern. The guys that installed the pipe came back in and packed bentonite around it, but either didn't get it on the underside of the pipe, or it has washed away. (See pic, the opening is in the shadow.)


Also, YP eating hand thrown feed better than ever. Millions of FHM swarming me when I swam. Bullfrogs everywhere, and tadpoles rising up looking like rain drops.
Have another algae bloom.. Green this time.


Tadpoles.

Was at the pond yesterday. Had about an inch of rain since the last visit, and the pond was up about an inch. I dug into the bentonite around the drain pipe, and packed it in underneath. As I dug in there, it was obvious water had been sitting in there all along. It was saturated. Got most of the bentonite packed in underneath the pipe.
I think the guy that went out to fix it, just dumped it in on top if the pipe. It did virtually nothing.
After pic..

If that doesn't work, give TJ a call asap.

Hopefully there is some on the way from him soon.. I know I'd be better off putting in a new drain system, but I'm trying to get the aeration system done.

Hey, can you have too many FHM?

If I were to stock HBG, how many would you recommend?

Just an update. I last checked the pond level on the 12th. Today the 21st. It's down another inch and a half. So, overall down 17.5" since it was full back in August. Very little rain since then. Maybe 1" total. The leak by the pipe is, of course, stopped because the level has dropped below the pipe.
The leak through the core, at the base of the dam, is still a very small seep. No noticeable current, but there is moisture behind the dam.
Any opinions welcome, in regards to fix.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff what issue are you looking for help on? Only options on a leak are either to mechanically fix by draining pond, drying out and replating with clay, treating with a sealant, or living with it.

Jeff, did you check your comparison bucket for water loss from evaporation? 1.5" in 9 days is easily from evaporation. The pipe you have needs removed and repaired if you want to sleep well at night. I think the polymer applied where things are always wet will take care of any seeps, but that pipe is always going to be an issue from simply getting wet and dry, swelling and contracting.

I guess I'm just going to leave this leak. If I could pinpoint it's starting point, I'd go for a fix. But I'm afraid it must originate at a very low level. If the level keeps dropping due to evaporation and the leak, with no rain in the immediate future, I'll have an idea where it is.
Until then the leak at the base of the dam will either self seal, or I'll just live with it.

Just curious. This weed has popped up in the zone between where the high water mark was and, the new water level. (Down 20" from Aug 1st).
Is this a mature duckweed? FYI, there is zero duckweed in the water.

Setterguy,

Duckweed only gets about a 1/4" wide at the most. That is a different type of weed.

Thanks Chris,
One less thing to worry about.

Well, I was all worried about the pond dropping another 1.75" over the last week (24" since Aug 1) then I sat down, looked around, and maybe I'm not all that depressed any more..

Water is back to full level and coming out overflow pipe. So far, so good with the leak that was coming out alongside the pipe. The bentonite is holding. Had about 3" of rain in last 72 hours. (7" in last 72 hours in St Louis.)

I'm glad to see it back being full! What does the whole pond look like at full pool? Do you have pictures?

Probably best pic I have from today. Taken from spillway on east end of the dam. Water was really boiling out of the spillway pipe later in the day. Still no leak along side of the pipe.

Great news Jeff!!! Nice to see your water is so clear again also, now that the brown algae had died off...

Looking good!! That looks a lot different than it did with the big fire in the center!!!

Thanks guys. It's nice to see it full, and clear. I'd like it to stay this way, but who knows?
There'll be a drought starting next month, and who knows what, the month after.

This is the view from the old dirt road that runs down by the pond. It comes up to the bottom of the culvert running under the road.



How many tadpoles can a 1 ac pond support? I have millions..

Up at the pond again today. Still full. No water coming from the pipe.
I did find a small seep down near the pipe that is new.. I hated to see it because I think it may be part of the leak that was along the pipe. Not sure. It is pretty small.
Here's a pic. I threw down my keys for perspective.

1/4" of ice. Saw some big schools of FHM. Lots of tadpoles up bumping the ice.
View of pipe at full.

Great looking pond. Nice setting.

Thank you. We ran into a lot of rock mixed in with the clay during construction.. So I've ended up with a few leaks. So far they are small, and I'm not sure if water isn't leaving the pond and just not surfacing where I can see it. I'm measuring the water drop and time frame trying to see how serious it is. Fixed (or attempted to fix) the biggest known leak by adding bentonite around the entrance to the overflow pipe. So it seems to have worked. Two smaller seeps are apparent though.
I'll be trying Soil Floc when it warms up.
Jeff

Just a quick update. The pond was full ok 1/1. Here it is 5 weeks later, it's down 13". We've had very little rain. This represents a pretty big slow down in water loss. Just packing some bentonite around the pipe has really helped. I still have the seep that's coming out at the bottom of the dam, but it's very difficult to guess where it originates.

Here's what it looks like from the back of the dam. Water isn't running, but really looks like it's coming out at the base of the dam. If it's not moving, would dye work on trying to determine where it originates in the pond?