Guys,

I need an urgent help here.

Question is simple: Will Northern LMB be fine in 85 degrees water?

Are you transporting fish? If so cooler is better.

With that said I fished a local LMB tournament here a few nights ago, surface temps at the lake were 95F and most of our fish were caught shallow.

No Shorty. I put them in the tank but the temperature of water is 85. I think they will be fine then. Thank you!

For bass with in reason isn't DO more important than temp?

DO? What's that?

D.O. is dissolved oxygen.

I assume your fish made it home?
So what and how many did make it?
show us some pics of your holding set up................

85 is ok your problem would be say going from 70 and putting them into 85 or vice versa. That would not be real good for them.

RC

surface water of 95 degrees? Smokers!! How does anything live in that?

The question should be, "how does anyone fish" in that type of heat.

Hey Faith, if ya got those LMB from Texas to New York and then to Turkey, you should focus on becoming a fish transporter. Take warning Rex!!

Thanks guys. Bob, hehe . I can't believe that it happened too!

I will start a new thread about the fish, as soon as i make sure they are not dying .

I made sure to acclimate fish to my tank, before i put them. They seem to be perfect so far !



I am having problem with fathead minnows. I got 40-50 of them but i lose 1 or 2 every single day. These fish are so sensitive ! I thought maybe fish were killing each other, so i added some structure but i am not sure if that's the problem. Are they really aggressive to each other?

I sell them for bait. They are a pretty Harty minnow, until they get stressed sick or reach the end of there life span. I have had a bucket loose oxygen for fifteen minutes and half the fhm will be floating, I fix the problem or get them to better water and most will "come back to life" but then for the next couple weeks they like to die. When they reach the end of their life span the seem to act like a cult drinking punch for a passing comet. Minnows from certain spots seem to have disease and such that become noticeable in contained areas. And the dieing process begins. Obviously use of those spots is discontinued.

A trip to turkey might be stressfull..? Get young ones for that adventure,

BNM seem to be a little more hardy unless they are too imbred like one of my spots.

Still learning about those BNM

How many actually made it to Turkey?

What do you have for tanks?

fishm_n thanks man. I have nothing to do but wait and see. Fortunately i got plenty.

Phil, most of the fish made it to Turkey. Only a couple blue cats and fatheads died. I still can't believe it was so successful.

Most of the FHM Scott sent died and i couldn't take the risk. So i drove 6 hours to get more. Now i have about 40, here in Turkey. I left about 300 in NYC .

Thanks man. I sure will give you a call if i need to.

I couldn't believe that the LMB ate their brothers and sisters while inside the box during shipment.

I guess stress makes fish eat too!

Cecil, didn't I see you post something recently about small LMB stressing out some big BG in a cage?

Is it stressful for the other fish where Fatih has the LMB in with them?

I am so glad you got them there Fatih!!!!!!

I guess that's what they call a boxed lunch

Captive audience?

Thanks Jim . I seperated all the species. So, no problem.

In the last picture, there are LMB in with the BG. I'm assuming that you moved one or the other to another tank?

Plan on getting some small guppies or other small fish to feed the LMB.

Scott, at first i kept bluegills and bass in the same tank as i wanted to cure them all for external parasites. Then , i observed no scratching anymore. I am guessing maybe, they were scratching because of poor water of New York City. They seem to love the water i got here. No fish dying besides fatheads.


Guys, will fatheads eat their own juvenile? Do i need to seperate them to another tank? Because one of the males is ready to spawn now. Turned to black color with two silver lines(which is the indicator).

They will sometimes eat the eggs. Never heard of them eating the juveniles tho. I would separate them.

Do you have any breeding structure in the tanks?

I've seen small bass eat each other more than once. Often, they are sold as fingerlings due to their cannibalism in tanks.

I had over 700 smb and graded them between two tanks to feed train them a few years ago. Even with that grading, still only ended up with about 180 after cannabilism. Had to destroy 60 for VHS testing to sell them to a producer in Illinois.

Three gradings would have been better, but I didn't have three tanks at the time.

If you have FHM in spawning colors those particular fish are likely getting toward the end of their life cycle. If the ones you are loosing are the largest FHM's they might be dieing of old age. They only live about 18 months from what I read.

snrub, i lost at least 30 fish in 3 days now. Only maybe 20 of them left. And small ones dying too.

I am hoping they get over that stress as soon as possible and i can have a couple of them to breed.

I know that i am not doing anything wrong because all aquariums have the same water and fatheads are my in 45 Gal tank(which is huge for them).

What are the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels in the tank compared to the other tanks? Is there anything different about that tank vs. the others? i.e. filter, what's in the tank, water changes, etc?

Scott, the water is all fresh. My wife filled them up 5 days before i arrived. So i am sure water is very clean. And water we have here is pretty good for fish. Have never seen or heard of any fish deaths in this region because of pure water levels. Plus, every single fish besides fatheads are fine and seem to be very happy.

I changed 30% of the water yesterday.

I see some red spots on fish. These are very little bloody spots and i am pretty sure, caused by some kind of injury.

But anyways, i added salt and parasite medicine in their water. I have nothing to lose. These fish are gonna all be dead soon anyways. If it is some kind of parasite , this treatment will take care of it.

I put that dominant male fish in another tank because he was chasing other fish. I really doubt that this fish is the cause of all fish deaths but i am just trying everything to save these fatheads.

I had the same problem back in NYC. I was losing at least 1 or 2 fatheads every single day. I think that these fish are very fragile that they can't get over the stress of being transported.

Has anyone thought about shipping eyed eggs rather than live fish?

Fatih, I have found that fatheads are not fragile. I once saw an article that they were being stocked in areas to check pollution levels. That was because they could tolerate high levels of impure water.

Fatih,

Were these tanks where you're experiencing mobidity levels established with biofitration ahead of time? If not you may be experiencing "New Tank Syndrome." That is what Scott is driving at when he asked about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels.

http://www.firsttankguide.net/newtanksyndrome.php


Nitrate levels are not an issue, and the species you shipped are nitrite tolerant, but ammonia can be extremely toxic and even damage gill tissue. Even if your tanks are cycled, the ammonia and nitrite levels may have reach very stressful levels during transport. Did the shipping water have any salt in it or an ammonia nitrite neutralizer?


No doubt the fish were severely stressed by shipping even if your conditions are good now. It's a given you will lose some. If you're lucky the problems will subside and the survivers will be good strong future brood fish.

And yeah as said fathead minnows have short lifespans. They also get a lot of abuse by producers, suppliers, and bait dealers. A lot of bait store dealers don't have the first clue about biofiltration and practice none. They lose fish every day and consider it normal.

I bought fathead minnows from a local Amish baitstore a few weeks ago. He had them in well water temp water which was 51.6 F. He wasn't there as the bait purchase is an honor system, but I had to wonder how many anglers dropped them in 85 F. water right away which meant instant shock. I tempered the ones I bought for an hour before putting them in the pond.

Actually that cold of water was great for D.O. but it's a great way to get a secondary fungus infection going in warm water fish from handling.

Heard about a fish farmer that thought he was smart holding bluegills in cold water in the summer, as he could hold more in the tanks due to higher D.O., and feed them less. But many of them came down with fungal infections.

Fatih, don't assume anything. Without actually testing the water you don't know, you are only guessing, and guessing could kill the fish.

Go to an aquarium shop and buy a test kit and test the water.

Cecil, I sent in separate bags, ammonia neutralizer and salt. I don't know if he used it or not, as he had to weigh it out for every container - I sent way more than what he needed to use.

Scott,

I didn't know who prepared the shipment. Been gone for a while so I'm still catching up on the saga.

Cheers!

Guys, you might be right! Bloody gills is one of the symptoms of high ammonia. I called shops and none had ammonia test kit. But i am taking all precautions to lower it now.

I bought a 6in1 test from aqua shop. It has all tests but Ammonia. My GH and PH are too high.

PH- 8,2
GH- 19

I have been using "PH down" solution of API but doesn't seem to be working.

Edit: Oh , i just read an article. It says if your GH is high, you will have trouble taking down the PH.

When we talked months earlier, I thought that you had all the tanks set up and cycled, and already had a test kit. Remember when you had problems with the Tilapia dying and I said to get a test kit and test the water?

I sure hope all this trouble wasn't for naught and the fish die once they are in the tanks.

Cecil, I sent detailed written instructions with the fish and supplies that I sent to New York before his flight. He was going to hold them in tanks there for 4-5 days before packaging them for the flight.

do you have well water, do water changes with well water.

Why are those readings "too high?"

My ph is 8.5 and my hardness is almost off the scale. It causes no issues with my fish. Trying to change Ph can, however, especially if it's done too rapidly.

The last thing you want to do with stressed fish is change the water chemistry, although a lower ph will reduce the unionized ammomia.

I never test hardness. It's a non-issue for me.

Scott, right before i left Turkey, i drained all the tanks.


Because when you and i talked about shipping fish eggs, that made sense and Keith and i were even talking about not going to Texas at all. My wife was little pissed with me because that water was stinky. So i drained them all.

That's the story...

I read some articles online and they say GH is not something to worry now. PH is not super high too.


I changed 30% water today and used an ammonia reducer in that tank. I don't think it is too late to save the fish. If they were dying because of high ammonia fish deaths should stop soon.

Nitrite and nitrate levels were close to 0 in that tank.

If you are using tap (city) and not well water, what chemical does your city use to treat the water?

What kind of filter system do you have on your tanks?

A guy I know (past acquaintance) that lived not too far from here worked for a company in Holland, MI. All he did was raise FHM for Environmental Assay's. That's about it!

These companies get a hunk of change for just an embryo, compared to what you might pay for a FHM you would put in your pond.

I mentioned that sounds quite lucrative, and it is, but he said you need both arms tattoo'd with PHD's to sell to the gub.

Back when we use to fish the Grand River, we use to see these assay cages all around.

They can tolerate a lot of conditions, that's why they use them.

This probably isn't the cause, but have you treated the water to remove chlorine and chloramine?

Usually the same compound that neutralizes ammomia and nitrites is also a chlorine neutralizer.

Our water has chlorine guys. No chloramine and i used those water conditioners. And as Cecil said they remove Ammonia too.

Here is the latest update: Since yesterday only 1 fish died and others seem all right. So it is improving. However i don't know whether it is because of my attempts to remove ammonia or putting aggressive male fish in separate tanks. Because these males are beating the crap out of all the fish there.

But i don't know until when i can separate aggressive males. Sooner or later i need them in my main FHM tank.

And i don't know guys. These males suddenly change their colors ( black color with 2 silver lines ), and start chasing other fish. Maybe they spawned and protecting their nests and i am ruining all spawning process...

if the only ones you are having issues with are the FHM can you serperate the spawning males with a few few females each or do you have a larger tank to give them more room. each male likes its own area.

do you have an above ground pool or even a larger sized plastic kiddie pool or stock tank to put them in with a little structure.

or a pond...

Or a bathtub ... the misses will love to not bathe while your minnows enjoy Club Fatih

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathead_minnow

Scroll down where the article talks about breeding. They have some interesting competitive breeding habits among the males. Kind of a "musical chairs' thing when it comes to the breeding site.

Good news guys. No dead FHM for 3 days.

pictures please......

Good news!

Good!!

Fatih, what are you using for filtration systems on the tanks?

I can share a picture tomorrow Bobby.

I use an external filter for my large tank and internal filters for smaller ones.

Here is a picture of diseased fish.



Picture from the tank.

THE DISEASE WAS FINALLY DIAGNOSED !!! VHS - Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia or Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia

All fish will probably be dead soon.

Probably the fishery in PA where i got FHM's is responsible for the disease.

It took so long to diagnose the disease because this is a very rare disease !

How was it diagnosed?

Dave i was always little suspicious about them being "ammonia poisoned" because even when i checked Turkish forums there wasn't a case where tap water had ammonia to kill fish and i had been using water conditioners to remove ammonia from the beginning. Even when i did partial water changes everyday and there were very few fish to cause ammonia they showed the same symptoms.

Plus the symptom of ammonia poisoning was only red gills. Not red fins or tail. When i shared the photo on a Turkish forum, the guy knew it was septicemia. And the photos of the disease matches exactly with mine.

Fatih,

I'm extremely skeptical.

1. You can't diagnose a disease visually by a picture on a forum. No professional fish pathologist would even think of it. Sure you can guesstimate, but it's just that, a WAG. Testing for VHS involves culturing the kidney and spleen of the fish.

2. There are numerous common bacterial pathogens that exhibit the clinical signs you are describing. I've routinely seen those clinical symtoms on stressed fatheads from baitstores. It was bacterial.

3. VHS has never been found on a U.S. fish farm. Ever.

4. Fathead minnows have never tested positive for VHS. The reason they are on the susceptible species list is their widespread use as bait would make them a potential vector.

4. Fish Farms are routinely tested for VHS if they sell fish interstate. If the fish farm you got the fish from tested positive for VHS it would be shut down.

5. Most fathead minnows sold in the U.S. originally come from Arkansas. I'm not aware of any VHS positive down there of any species.

What about Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia Cecil? This is a much more common disease, even for aquarium fish.

That's more likely but could be lots of things. Without actual testing you're just guessing.

The thing to keep in mind is many of the baterial pathogens are almost always present in the water, detritus, and even in the gut of the fish. It's when the fish is stressed, and consequently its immune system is compromised, that the fish is suscepible to the pathogens.

FHM are not on the VHS susceptible list. One of the few baitfish species you can buy and use anywhere in the State of Michigan.

My bad. You are correct!

I seem to remember VHS testing was required regardless, at least at first, due to their potential as a vector when used as a baitfish in numerous waters.

Or am I wrong on that too?

What are you suggesting Cecil? Take them to a fish laboratory and get biologists do autopsy on them? There is no option other then getting them diagnosed on an aquarium forum or let them die.

Actually a diagnosis at this point would probably not make any difference. The pics you are showing don't look very good. The ones that will die will die and the episode will probably end with healthy survivors. You can try some aquarium remedies that your fellow aquarists suggests, but it will probably be a waste of time.

Well Cecil. All there is left is 7-8 survivors and they seem to be healthy as you said. They might slow down and die all of a sudden though. We'll see.


Guys, can you kill a LMB feeding it too much? My LMB are the fattest little LMB you have ever seen. I never let their stomach be empty. Whenever they accept food, i feed them.

I think i will never feed them live mosquito fish from the local lake because i find it little very risky. They seem to be happy with pellets.

Fatih, I PERSONALLY don't think you need to feed them that often.

I've always read that fish that are a little hungry are healthier than over fed fish

Very true especially in closed systems.

Yeah I would not overfeed in a small system such as an aquarium. You would need to make certain the filtration system can handle the excess waste produced. Additionally if you're preparing the fish to be released into the wild you might consider preparing them for that release with frequency of feedings and what you're feeding them.

I see your point guys , and i agree that overfeeding is going to harm an enclosed system. And Basslover , this is a good idea. But i don't think i will be releasing these fish anyways. These are going to be my breeding machines .

But my question is more about if LMB knows when they should stop eating or not. You know you can kill a goldfish overfeeding it. I wonder if you can do that to a LMB as well.

I have had plenty of AQ's in my time and dumped a lot of feeder fish in them to feed my bass and I have never killed one from it eating to much. Oh they will stuff there mouth to the gills but I think they know when to stop.


Not to mention bass are fricken eating machines......

RC

Thanks RC51.


Guys , i couldn't find an answer to this question: At what age do LMB mature?

I read couple articles and they are incredibly contradictory.

Some sources say 4-5 months as some say 4-5 years. Some say 10 inches is the required size for maturity. Age doesn't matter.


Whattt?

Some of the 7 inch long LMB that I culled this spring from my pond had eggs that seemed to be developing. I have no way of knowing if these girls would have actually spawned. They may simply have resorbed their eggs had they lived.

From my experience with lmb in a pond if fast growing and well fed they matured by age 2. According to the literature I have seen in my area of the country, 3 to 5 year old fish are preferred as broodstck which are usually 1.5 to 4 lbs. Also size seems to be more important for maturation than age.

7 incher with eggs? How old were they 4CornersPuddle?

Cecil , i don't know how fast they will grow in a tank. They are in a limited size environment but they are always very well fed here.



Do you think they will stop eating pellets if i feed them live fish occasionally?

Fatih -

Yes they will only grow to the size of the tank. So I hope you have huge tanks

Definitely consider the risk of feeding life anything to your bass. Live organisms may carry and transmit disease (especially feeder fish). But also I have some bass that ate pellets until the moment I introduced live food via worms/crickets/minnows. From that feeding forward 3 days they would not eat another pellet. The other fish (catfish and bluegill) would continue to eat pellets, but the bass sat and waited. I eventually gave in and started feeding them live.

The other consideration with introducing live organisms as feed, if they prefer that and no longer feed on pellets, you've not increased your level of responsibility of always having to have the live food on hand, making sure it is healthy, etc.

Basslover,

Sure i got some big ones.


I guess you are right. I don't want to risk any of my LMB, only to get a little faster growth rate. Probably not worth it.

Plus, it is impossible to deal with a stubborn LMB not accepting pellets. I learnt it the hard way .

Are you going to get the LMB to spawn in aquariums?

For what it's worth, I stocked some pellet trained LMB in my pond a year ago. I with held feed for two or three weeks wanting to make sure they went after my GSF. They are still coming daily to the feeder and eating pellets. Go figure. Just no way of really telling how things will work out.

Jim, i made some research and saw some people asking "can i breed LMB in fish tanks" but haven't seen someone actually made it. Not on the internet at least.

We have a very large garage. I am planning to put some plastic pools there , maybe next summer and try to breed them there. This garage gets very very hot in summer time. So i left a barrel of water to see how hot water will get.

You might be able to ventilate the garage with a fan to draw some of the heat out.

In this 40,000 sq-ft building that Scott and Matt stopped by on 7/7, I just kick on a vent fan that sucks the air out. I'll be putting a smaller one in the basement at home to pull fresh air thru.

Phil, this is not the kind of garage you have there. This is under an apartment building and it won't be that easy to ventilate it because this garage doesn't have a connection with fresh air. Not even a window.

Something smells a little fishy here

(sorry, just some dumb humor )

I got that weird feeding issue with the LMB.

They like my floating pellets but they don't want to eat more than a couple of them even though they still are very hungry. How do i know they are still hungry? Because they keep eating if i feed them sinking granul food.
(Maybe this explains why sinker lures are very good for them)

The problem with granul food is that they are so small. So i put some water on them and dry them. The next day they will be like meat balls. Another problem with sinking food is , sometimes they miss or chew and puke the food and then i need to collect those foods , which is a pain in the butt.

LMB is not gonna eat a food lying on the ground. Food either has to be moving or be on the top of the water for them to eat.

I need a good, large sinking pellet. I haven't seen one before though.

Try hydrating your floating pellets before feeding them.

As long as the LMB and catfish are the same size, put one catfish in the aquarium with the LMB. The catfish will clean up the pellets on the bottom.

Shorty , hydrating pellets doesn't work. No hydration is good enough to sink them.

Scott that's a good idea. Cats are much smaller than the LMB though. I might get some tropical bottom fish from the store.

I would only get one at first. It might attack the bass.

Fatih -

You could always just let their instincts take over. Don't be afraid to "starve" them - I had some bass who were eating pellets, then got a taste of live food and refused pellets for 3 days, but are now eating both pellets and live food again. I opted to feed pellets for a week and a few bass refused, but I just presume that their hunger eventually led them back to eating the pellets because they started eating them again and now they eat whatever I drop in front of them.

I've had CC in tanks and now this small pond for the same reason and they all starved to death despite plenty of food.

I agree. Their instinct is meat and preferably moving meat. IMHO I would think hard about what inexpensive live baitfish, worms, insects, etc you have available in your area. Second choice would be an inexpensive fish at the market you could cut into small pieces. The small chunks will sink.

Bill D.

Edit for clarification: My reasoning is you have gone to a great amount of effort and expense getting those fish to Turkey. I would not try to experiment. I would give them what they want. It is not like you can go to the fish farm and get more if your experiment fails.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/anchor-worms-oh-nooo.649455/


Am i in a huge trouble? I will leave the city in 2 days for 5 days. I don't know what to do... I am a dead man if these are anchor worms.

Check out the link i shared for details.

http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab304/Querorz/20150907_015326_zpssiirekug.jpg~original

Wish I could help but have never seen those.

DD1. Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

With a misguided sense of urgency, it turns into a cluster ...., then you have to hire attorneys.

Yeah, you're right about misguided.

About a year ago, I needed something done by a gun smith. I told him there was no hurry. He responded with that saying. I've been turning it over in my mind for awhile. Then, I decided to get started with that thought process and have accomplished a lot of little and a couple of big things that are always too easy to put off. I am, by nature, lazy, slovenly, and don't like to be confrontational.

I'm making lists. On most I'm following through and am developing some impatience with those that tell me they will do things and leave me sitting around waiting for them to show up. I recently needed some repair stuff done. When the guy didn't show up on time I called and got no answer. I called several times. By the time he called(the next day) the job was already done by someone else. I figure he was turning his problems into my problems and I'm through with that.

Of course, as I'm sitting here looking around me at the junk in my office...........