Guys,

Looking dr your opinions on the best type of grass to plant around the pond this spring/summer. I do not have any tree cover so shade is a minimum. I would like a hardy grass that will germinate and spread quickly with minimal care. I also do not have a water source to keep it wet so it must be drought resistant. Additionally, would like sketching that is reasonably cost efficient. I was thinking common Bermuda.. Opinions?

Cav

That's what I planted in buffalo area and it is doing well now whether it will during hot summer is a dif story. So far so good tho


Pat

Sounds good pat,

I know I'll need to buy the seed in bulk where did you get yours?

Feed stores sell by the pound. Bermuda seeds are tiny so a lb goes a long way. Around me it's 8$ lb so it gets costly. You might mix it in with rye to start it cause the rye comes up faster than Bermuda. If we had two weeks of warm you could put out the rye to get a little erosion help till the Bermuda gets going. I'd put Bermuda out in March

Pat

Very good advice. If you have existing plants of any kind, and nature permits, I might burn the dam in late Spring. Bermuda is by far the best option for grass down here, but it doesn't like shade or competition. Existing weeds do both. Burning also adds pot ash to the soil, and Bermuda really likes that.

Not sure what part of the state you're in, but Bermuda germinates when the soil hits the low 70's, so rye is a good idea. It'll sure germinate both quicker, and earlier, than the Bermuda.

I also add course ground corn meal to the seed mix to get a better idea of where I've thrown seed.

Why rye instead of wheat? There's quite a bit of cost difference.

Good question. Why do we always recommend rye? It's what I've always sowed, but I never even gave anything else a second thought.

EDIT: Dave, I just remembered I tried the Japanese Millet last fall during the heat, and it popped up in a matter of days. I sowed Bermuda on a bare prepared clay surface, and using a 50/50 mix of the millet and the Bermuda, next to it.

The millet definitely slowed the Bermuda growth down, but it had a good solid ground cover in a couple of weeks, with only a light dawn and dusk watering. I'll probably do the millet this spring, just to get some areas ready for the Bermuda.

I suspect availability is an issue with getting winter wheat seed locally in areas where it is not farmed. It does germinate faster than rye.

Adding corn meal acts as a good fertilizer but also is somewhat a pre- emergents- might inhibit the sprouting of any seeds. Also a good fungicide.

Bill we can get wheat here but rye is cheaper and sprouts real quick and even when it dies the roots stay for a long time stopping erosion



Pat

I have rye all around the pond now.. Some areas are extremely thick and there is no bare dirt. However, some areas aren't and you can still see the ground pretty well. Should I just mow this down as low as possible before spreading the Bermuda of like fire, how ironic, suggested burn the rye then spread the seed..

Caviler03, We're pretty careful when we burn, and everything's got to be just right. We carry a hi-pressure spray rig, brooms, rakes, back pack blowers, etc. It's not something we take lightly. But, we've had great results if the timing and weather is right, and the Bermuda's ready to sow. I normally watch adjacent areas looking for existing Bermuda grass that's greening up in the spring, and that tells me the soil is warm enough for planting.

If you can mow the rye you've already got, then that might be the safest bet for sure. Just be sure the dew is off the rye before you broadcast Bermuda seed. As Pat said, it's very small, and it can stick to the rye grass blades.

Like Al said above about being really careful if choosing to burn, conditions should be right with bodies and equipment to control sudden gusts that can turn it into an inferno fast. Burning would give your water an added benefit of adding potash when it gets washed into the pond. It may leave some charged stuff floating for a bit that is a bit of an eyesore, but it sinks pretty fast.

FWIW I was looking for info on what you can do with the ashes from your firepalce recently. One of the things I found was there was benefit to adding it to a pond at a rate of 1 TBS per 1000 gallon for algae control. Have no idea if this works so am not saying it is a good thing, just reporting what I found.

Rye costs about 3 times as much in my area. It is touted as being perennial but I find that I get about a 50% return on it. Over a 5 year period it disappears. Wheat is just about bullet proof and I get about the same return as perennial rye.

I no longer do a burn for 2 reasons.

We generally have a burn ban in my arid area. Legally, when that happens, I'm not supposed to even BBQ outside. As a law abiding citizen, you guys know that I would never even wink at the law.

A neighbor was burning trash about 25 years ago. It got away from him and got just about my entire place. Luckily, there was a high wind and it swept through in a hurry. It was also during the winter when the sap was down in the trees. So, 90% of the trees weren't really harmed and everything came out beautifully in the Spring. Also, on my place, it was beneficial because it burnt off many years of ground crap accumulation, added potash to the soil and reduced low branches. But I did lose some probably 100 year old cedar fence posts and most of my fence wire. One neighbor lost a barn and it took quite awhile to sort out everyone's cattle. Even the remote chance of a fire still scares me.

Over the years, I've lost most of the bermuda on my dam to ragweed but they seem to work about as well for erosion control.

Dave, I went to bed last night thinking I probably shouldn't have even mentioned burning. We do it every spring in selected areas, but you're right, it sure can get away from you. It seems like the biggest fire issue around here is hay bailers. You mechanical guys may know why, I don't, but my hay guy says it's pretty common. And, hay balers do scramble when a $10,000 baler is on fire.

Ragweed? We gotta get that fixed.

I have tried Buffalo grass, and really wanted it to work, but I just couldn't get the rapid coverage that Bermuda provides. Buffalo grass is low growing, drought resistant, and it just looks like a great option, but we just couldn't get a good stand with it.

Ragweed? I think a lot of people have less allergies to Bermuda than Ragweed. There's Ragweed here that grows 10' tall, and others that only gets about 18" tall.

I agree with Dave on the wheat, and I also added clover's, nothing is better than clover to walk or lay around on. Just don't step on the bee's barefooted. And Cav, u have the water, you just need a sprinkler. I use one I purchased from Big Sprinkler.com out of Okla. You will have all the water distribution on your grass you will want

Thanks for the info,

My plan is to cut the rye down as low as possible, around march, and spread bermuda seed depending on the temperature. Us texans know it can be 40 degrees or 100 degrees march 1st. Provide as much water as possible and hope it takes off like wildfire!

We have no real issues with the ragweed in the country. My ex wife was very allergic to it but it never bothered her up there. However, ragweed season in the city can be murder.

Dave what do you suggest for NE Texas summer shade
areas that get hit by a little bit of sprinkler?

Mark, I'm not real sure that I've ever crossed the Trinity River to East Texas.

Heck, cedars grow just about anywhere. And, they provide some color in the Winter; or what you guys call Winter. On my place, I like to keep some so everything won't look so bare at this time of year.

Yesterday I planted 4 Persimmon trees and 1 Sawtooth oak within 30 yds of pond. If the sawtooth reaches 50' someday, it will provide some nice shade and will also provide acorns for the wildlife. Smaller shade with the persimmons but still providing for wildlife and me

TGW1 I may plant a few Loblolly Pine Trees around the cabin.

I think HighFlyer planted some around his cabin.

TGW

What kind of persimmons did you plant?Japanise or native?


Pat W

Mark,
I planted about 4000 Gen 2 and 3 loblollies over two years. The advanced genetics are proving themselves over the years. Ours are now five and six years old and look great!!

I have had a very high success rate even with the drought we have been experiencing.

So in short, they are Brian Approved!!

Brian I remember yours and liking them.
How tall are they now?
I think they like moist soil don't they?

DD1
Was the rye you were referring to grass or cereal rye( Elbon Rye) Big Dif in prices


Pat W

Mark,
Most are over 20 feet tall, some are just under 20 feet, and a few are nearly 30 feet tall.

They do like the water, but not too much.

Also, some have been taken out by root disruption.

A few did not make it on top of the hills during the drought, but besides that, I really like them.

Pat, I didn't know there was a difference. I just went to the Feed Store and said rye for grazing cattle.

Dave,

You probably got rye grass. Cereal rye is harvested as a grain crop to make such things as rye bread to eat such things as Catmandoo's venison pastrami on such sandwiches as a pastrami reuben with such things as fresh kraut, horseradish sauce, pepperjack cheese, nice slice of vidalia onion.....

Bill
Mmmm but that is just heresay!!!!
Lol...

It makes a seed head just like wheat... Dear like it ok but they hit the winter wheat better

Pat W

Spell checker on that phone got ya again Pat. So you feeding your "Dear" rye? You might want to try a little wine and candlelight...might have more fun later!

Bill

It's one letter!!!

Pat

Ok, Sorry I didn't know you were sensitive my friend......How about Falstaff and pretzels??

That's better!!! Apologies accepted

Rough crowd!

Over the years I've planted dang near everything for the deer. Lots of people swear by oats but I really haven't seen any preference between wheat, oats or rye. All of them make a seed head. They will ignore all of them for wild rye and I have quite a bit of it. If I get good rains I get acorns and they ignore everything else!

The local County Agent once talked me into trying Lab Lab. It is a tall plant with huge leaves and a thick stalk. It got about 4 ft tall and died when I went 2 weeks without rain. The deer never messed with it.

Do they still brew Falstaff? I haven't seen it in years but admit that I haven't looked for it.

Hay there Zep, I already some 40 to 50' pines around the pond so I wanted something to help feed the deer and Turkey, and the Fuji Persimmon's are recommended by LSU agg dept for this area or so I was told. And I already have native Persimmon's on my place Pat, so I thought I would try these and they produce fruit twice the size of the Natives.

Dave, I agree, I tried the LabLab and it was expensive @ or around $85 per sk of seed and did not like the drought. I plant the 3 grains mentioned here along with Eagle soybeans and sorghum and Cowpeas. I really like the Eagle Brand soybeans and so do the deer, they will walk over everything to get to the beans. In fact , one side of the pond, 200 yds by 25 yds is now red clay. I have limed it and plan to put some more soybeans there along with some Top soil that needs to be spread over it. I hate the red clay but came from digging the pond.

DD1
Falstaff bit the dust back in 1975.not a moment to soon. LOL
Cereal rye has a seed head about 24" high and rye grass not sure I've ever seen it make a top. Winter rye that comes up on its own has a 2-3" seed top that the birds love. Around my place the deer turn up their noses at rye grass that we've planted in the past. This year we planted winter wheat and it was a total flop , didn't do much at all for some reason.


Pat

TG your soybean story reminded me what happened a few summers back. We had a pretty good drought going until late August. We had planted a big garden on the land but had to drive 10 miles to bring water to it. It was the only thing green around and the deer came by and wiped out the green beans first. Pretty much nobody had a green bean crop that year cause of the drought and they just pulled them up. We left ours there and stopped watering them. In August the rains finally came. Turns out the deer did us a big favor by trimming those beans to the ground earlier. Those thinhgs took off growing like crazy when the rain finally came. We canned green beans till they were coming out our ears till first of October!

OK, this fall I'll try some soy beans. never even thought of them. This year, along with wheat, I'll mix some in.

This year, I over seeded with turnips and white radishes. Most of them germinated and died and the deer have taken the rest out.

Pat and DD,
Long live Falstaff!

I happened to see this mug in my dads shed last week...

Dave:

If you are using soybeans for deer, make sure the ones you buy are indeterminate.

Esshup

Why indeterminate?



Prolly a dumb question


Pat W

Dj
Now that really brings back memories!


Pat

Most soybeans are determinate - setting the seeds all at once for harvesting at a certain time, and for a specific growing season length. Indeterminate will keep setting seeds and keep growing until killed by frost. New, tender growth keeps on being produced, making it more palatable for the deer.

Thanks

My wildlife spring and summer food plots are a lot of work but I love seeing the deer with the fawns in these plots. I have done two types of soybeans both agg and Eagle Brand forage beans. I plant in April and I have to place elec fence around the beans till June 1 or there will be no beans because the deer will wipe them out. the Eagle brand is 3 times the cost of the agg beans but from my experience it is worth the extra $. The agg beans are early to seed and that is why they are agg beans, but Eagle is for forage. Like 5 times the forage. And then after making to maturity the beans will last into Nov and Early December where the deer and Turkey will have winter food. This provides a great place for hunting in and around the plots. Even with large acorn yr's , the deer will stay on the Soybeans. To be successful with the beans u will have to do elec fencing using 3 strands of fence. The only way around this is to do plots in excess of 10 acres if u have good deer populations. And irrigation is always better. If you want to cut some expense, I might suggest adding 1/3 in agg beans added to the Eagle brand beans. Mixed in random with the forage beans. I DO NOT SELL EAGLE BRAND BEANS but after finding these 3 yrs ago, I am sold as you can see.