We are going to be sinking trees in our neighborhood lake again this year. We are wanting them to provide cover for the bluegill population.

We are currently slightly bass heavy, and we are culling, and added threadfins last year to reduce the predation on bluegill. Currently most of our bluegill are 3-5", with few larger ones.

Last Christmas we sank trees in 3-5 ft of water near spawning areas.

What water depth would be best, and what types of areas?

The lake is about 100 acres, with little natural cover. We are expecting to sink about 150 trees.

Thanks

Hi William

Low WR LMB population is being addressed well in your current efforts of culling LMB, establishing additional forage species [TFS], and boosting BG population with addition of cover. I'd continue to focus your placement of dense brush in shallow areas under 5-6' - think of bunching it instead of thinly spreading it. 2-3 bundles of trees in one area, move 100 feet, sink another. Sounds like you are on the right track. Did you see improved BG recruitment following your structure placement efforts last year?

Teehjaeh57
Would you think a pathway of trees from the bank out to 5-6' would be a good option not only for BG but also for gambusia to hide in? My minnows get hammered by the LMB YOY

Pat W

We did see more bluegil. When you went up to the shallow trees they were covered in 1-2" bluegill.

We got the TS from Greg Grimes, and they are doing great.

Would a few in deeper water be a good idea so the BG have a place to hide as the water cools? Maybe the predation is not that great in the winter?

I don't know, just asking.

Lusk, et al prescribe dense shallow cover [1-6' depth] for forage [BG] population protection. Considering your goals [improved LMB WR], sheer size of BOW [100 ac], and amount of raw materials for structure [150 6-8' conifers] I'd focus efforts on shallow areas first. You're looking at placing 30 groups of 5 trees on over 4 million sq ft of water - so I'd lock down those shallow areas first. You're already seeing results from your previous structure implementation - improved LMB WR will likely result in conjunction with assertive culling efforts of low WR LMB. I think you're on the right track - give these efforts 2-3 seasons to reflect true impact. Keep taking L/W measurements and keep us apprised.

You did well with TFS from Grimes...he's a can't miss resource.

Yes, I would not leave 50' of open water from shallow shoreline vegetation areas out to the brush piles...that's a lot of exposure to predation swimming out to the brush and back to the shoreline vegetation for feeding of invertabrates. Would likely take a beating - might be setting up the forage for major damage. I like the idea of placing trees from shoreline out to deeper water - like a finger - maybe with a T on the end. Allows them a safe highway of travel with limited exposure. Experiment with placement and map how you situate the brush piles. Some designs will hold more BG than others, then you retrace your steps, refer to the map, extrapolate data and determine what characteristics made the structure more or less successful. You'll likely arrive at a pattern and depth configuration that will prove the most successful model - then use that moving forward.

Yes...but I don't totally understand the dynamics of GA water temps and how they relate to movement of BG - so I'd leave that to others. Certainly you don't want to raise a ton of forage only to leave them in barren deep water getting hammered all Winter. Of course, I do this purposely to help manage my BG population...less cover the better - but our goals are inverse.

Lots of good ideas and text on structure in the structure archive

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

Thanks for all the info and ideas.

I think I'm going to try the tree highways out to the piles.

Also should I look for 4-6' depth close to deeper water?

I wish I had read about fish highways before doing my structure/cover. I have a lot of isolated islands of structure. The good part is they go from the deepest water (10') to near the surface, but are still isolated from shore. Did all this just before discovering PBF. I may make some attempts this coming summer to install some cover out to a few of these structures to see how it works out.

I did get the chance to scuba dive a couple of times and see what was in various cover schemes. Lots of small BG in the cedar tree cover. The wooden layered structures I put in for FHM had tons of tiny fish around them. They were so small my poor eyes could not determine if they were FHM fry or BG, but some fish were definitely making use of hanging around what cover I had provided. Had to get my mask down within a few inches of the structure and bottom to see them. Maybe a half inch long.

Wish I had enough energy and concrete blocks to fill lake with cedar trees as I kept all the cedar that was removed for the pond .. Got do something with it all, guess I can do a little at a time. That aught to give a good hiding spot for the YOY


Pat W

Pat, pound in a post/pipe, tie some rope on the cedars and loop the rope around the post/pipe. That keeps them in place and they will get waterlogged and sink.

Ewest does that.

Thanks Esshup
That's a good idea, would save some concrete blocks


Pat

I had a silted in pond dug out 2 years ago, had two points made. Cut down some big cedars then took a post auger and planted them upright.
put some gravel beds in. Looked like a lot of cedar cover when the pond was empty, now that it is almost full I sure wish I would have put in more. I do like my upright trees. don't know how many years they will last. Pond is about 1 1/2 acre, FHM, CNB. haven't found a way to get more cedars in without a lot of work , so I am adding slowly too.
Dale

150 trees in 100 acres sounds pretty light though.

We'd like more than 150 trees, we send an email out to all 2000 residents, and ask them to bring their trees to the lake. A couple of us also will drive around picking up trees.

We've made some improvements to a park at the lake, and put in a dock for kids to fish from, with a fish feeder. Also the availability of reasonably priced kayaks, has created a lot more use of the lake. This increased visibility has gotten the HOA to be very open to more funding.

The fact that the guys fishing the lake put in alot of work with projects around the lake really helps also.

Over the last 4 years we have probably sank 300 trees, so hopefully we are building a base of trees.

William you're doing it right - little bit at a time as resources are available - you're already witnessing some improvement with BG recruitment. LMB WR will follow in a season or two. If you up here in NE, I have 10 acres of cedars free to a good home like yours!

Even at that pace, the lake will be way short on cover for the fish. I'd look into using plastic wherever possible so you aren't fighting decomposing trees over the years.

For a "balanced" fishery, rough rule of thumb is 20% of the surface area is cover for fish.

Somebody check my math.

100 trees at 5' diameter = 6% of a surface acre?

π∙r2 is the area of the tree. 43,560 square feet in an acre.

Well, THAT didn't translate very well. pi times the radius squared should give the area of the 5' dia. christmas tree.

20% = 8,700 sq ft/acre

Wow! Looking at it that way, you need over 44000 trees 5 foot in diameter (19.6 sq feet/tree) to cover 20% of a 100 acre lake!

Somebody check my math

100 acres = 4356000 sq ft
20% of that = 871200 sq ft
area of a 5 foot diameter tree = 19.6 sq ft
871200/19.6 = 44352 trees

Engineers......they love the math!

C'mon Scott, admit it....sometimes you just gotta' wing it, seat-of-the-pants style, with no formulas!

Ok math wiz's, y'all are depressing me. I don't think I'm up for 44k trees!

Would the areas of deeper water say over 18-20' cut into the needed area to cover? We were planning to concentrate on areas close to spawning flats. We've got a pretty good bit of openwater.

Here's a Google earth shot of the lake, and a pic of the tree barge last year.

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Hey William,

Don't be discouraged! IMHO Esshup was pointing out with his post that dropping all those trees is a great START but maybe you still have work to do. There are so many other things you can do to provide structure like, docks, fishing peers, appropriate vegetation plantings, rock piles, etc. I am not a pro, so this is just my take on it. Hopefully, Esshup and some of the other guys will come back with followup posts of encouragement and advice.

Happy New Year!

Bill

Didn't mean to be negative at all. Agree with what TJ said..keep on truckin'!!!!!

I'm not discouraged, I was just being a little sarcastic. I think we are headed in the right direction. We realize the HOA won't be on board to manage it as a trophy lake. Right now our RW on 8" fish is good, they are at 100%. As the bass get bigger the RW drops, by the time you get to 15" they are around 80%.

If we can stay at 80% or better I'll consider it a success. You can catch quality 4-6lb bass, and a couple of 10+ are caught each year. Unfortunately I can't seem to break the 8lb mark.

Breaking that 10lb barrier is easy. When you hold up that 8 pounder for the photos, extend you arms as far as you can towards the camera. All the advertisements do it. 8 is now 10!

It's a great start, and Sparkie, I did WAG it and couldn't believe the numbers so I ran 'em. (Holy #(*^, that can't be right!!! Yep, it is!)

You get more bang the buck so to speak for placing them near spawning habitat, but if the fish migrate to deep water during the coldest part of the winter, what do the forage fish have to hide in? Making highways from shallow to deep cover also helps concentrate the fish along those routes, making them easier to target.

The other thing that you are fighting is the decomposition of the trees over time. If you can source other things that don't decompose as fast, that will allow your yearly structure placements to last longer.

Seeing the WR turn around on the smaller fish means that what you are doing is working. After a year or two of doing the same thing, (small openings between the branches) you'll have to start working on placing cover that larger and larger fish will utilize. The larger LMB are not gaining WR because the food for them isn't of the correct size yet, and in sufficient quantity. As the little YOY fish survive year 1, 2 and 3, they will become better food for the larger LMB.

Don't discount the presence of aquatic vegetation - it will help fill in some of the open water areas and provide refuge for your BG to escape, graze, and grow.

Bingo!

And, quite possibly, it will happen whether you like it or not.

Picked up 20 trees today for a 1.5 acre pond. I don't have a lot of other structure in the pond yet.. Do you think the 20 trees is good or should I get more? If more, how many more?

I am not an expert but I am a fan of diversity. IMHO lots of different critters in a pond and not all want the same habitat. You can add more trees later if you think you are light. Have fun with it. For me, putting structure in is a lot of fun. You can really get creative! Cool plants, rock piles, homemade.....

I like a lot of structure spred out in lots of areas to give fish Dif. Areas to stay in . This gives the YOY a chance to grow up a Little and not be concentrated in just one area. Like Bill said get creative with it then fish it in the spring and see which areas the fish like then u can create more like that in different areas. I tie floats to it so I can fish the spots


Pat W

Thinking about it, I guess I have more diversity than I realized (4ft brick pile, 3 foot tire pyramid, 1 plastic barrel with hoses and soon to be Christmas trees)

I know there's the 20-25% structure rule but honestly is so hard to say yeah that's about 20% or not, you know?

From what I have learned here, the giant unknown is the vegetation. It can pick its own percentage and you need to constantly monitor it.

Haha, William, Congratulations! the posters on your thread quite literally wrote the book on such matters.

My personal experience is that I hate getting hung up on the trees and losing my tackle. I put all the trees in nearly the same location. As the fingerlings get older and bolder they sneak out and get eaten.

The trees that remain submerged completely have a really long useful lifespan.

So, if the forage fish can have a sanctuary to breed and grow they will become a sustainable resource for the entire lake.

And ultimately that is all our goal. I think...hahaha

Good luck!

One additional thought is that tannic acid from trees kills aquatic life...so, slow and steady is the course.

5-10 trees per year seems adequate to me.

but, to each his own.

DL

Thanks for all the suggestions.

We've done some PVC structure in the areas that kids bank fish from so they don't get hung up. We are planning more for this year. While the PVC won't rot, it does get pricey and time consuming when you look at large quantities.

The beauty of the trees for us is that we can send an email out to the whole neighborhood, and they will bring us about 150 trees, and drop the off at our community dock.

I'm exited to get them sunk, and see how things progress.

The amount of knowledge, and experience available here is incredible.

I'll post pictures of the sinking party, and see if I can get some good sonar pictures of the trees.

You can make PVC trees from 3" thinwall ag drain pipe, and use 1/2" to 1" rolled poly tubing for the branches. If you search, you should be able to find the poly tubing for $0.10/foot or so.