Hey guys,

Remember my topic on trees?

Trees Selection. Need Your Help

Thanks to all the friends helped. I got my seeds after a month of waiting with worrying(seeds didn't have any certificate) . But finally i got them.

ARBUTUS menziesii Pacific Madrone
Quercus macrocarpa Southern Red Oak
Quercus rubra Bur Oak
Ulmus americana American Elm
Platanus occidentalis Sycamore
Carya illinoinensis - wild collection Pecan
Celtis occidentalis Common Hackberry
Cedrus deodara Cedar
Cedrus libani Lebanon Cedar
Taxodium huegelii Cypress

As a complete ignorant on these stuff, i have a couple questions for you.

1- Almost all of the seeds require cold stratification. Is just sealing and putting them in the refrigerator, enough? I read different things about moisture in the bag. Should i moisten them or should they remain completely dry? Am i supposed to add sand or something like that in the bag? Some sources recommend that.

2- I understand that i should scarify the seeds too. But is this before or after the stratification.

3- Check out the 2nd picture i shared. Even though acorns must be stratified too, i see that this one has a little bud coming out. Do you think it still needs stratification?

4- I should keep the seeds inside the house until they have leaves. But then what? Leave outside, so they can have sun? But it is cold out there ( Temp Zone 8B here ) . What to do?

Thanks .

Here some pics:

Fatih,

I would plant the acorn with the tap root breaking out. Maybe someone else can answer your other questions. In the meantime, I will send your questions to a guy I know that owns a nursery and grows all his trees from seeds. Maybe he will provide some useful info for you.

I would keep the seeds in a cool dark place until you decide how to proceed.

Bill D.

Fatih
If you can remove acorn cap from the bur oak acorn that is sprouting. Plant on side about an inch in dirt and keep moist and it should come up fine.. I have a lot of bur oaks in my yard. Good luck


Pat W

Hi Fatih,

I received the following from Darrell Kromm at Reeseville Ridge Nursery:

"To stratify the seed just a piece of moist paper towel or moist paper shreds inside a sealed plastic bag will work. To help the seed intake some water all could be soaked in water over night and drained before placing them into the plastic bags.

These species would need cold moist stratification at 1-3 degrees celsius ( 32-38 degrees F )

Arbutus menziesii about 60 days cold moist
Quercus rubrqa 60-90 days cold moist, the shorter amount if the seed is from a southern source.
Carya illinoiensis 60-90 days cold moist
Celtis occidentalis 60-90 days cold moist, rub off the dried flesh of the fruit first.
Cedrus libani and Cedrus deodora should germinate without stratification but 2 weeks cold moist may give a more even germination timing.
Ulmus americana Try just the water soak and sowing, if none germinate in 2-3 weeks give them some cool stratification time and keep watching them.
Platanus occidentalis should germinate if sown on the surface of moist soil in a warm place. You could also try them rolled up in a moist paper towel in a bag, then check them for germination every few days. Pluck out and pot up those that begin to germinate. Platanus occidentalis may have a majority of empty seeds.
Taxodium huegelii should germinate if sown in soil that is kept very moist and warm, these may take several months to germinate but should not need much of any cold stratification.

The Quercus macrocarpa that have begun to show the root emerging could be sown into pots, the top shoots may take a month or two to develop. You could also place the potted acorns in a cool place and keep the pots moist inside plastic bags. Rodents will often find anything left unprotected in open pots.

None of the species should need scarification.

Anything potted up could be set outside in a protected spot out of high sun and wind for the first several weeks. Again you’ll need some way to protect them all from rodents. Cover them or take them indoors if you expect frosts."


Have fun!

Bill D.

Good to see you got the seeds!

Nothing more to add except to protect them from rodents, make a framework from .63 cm wire mesh. (that's the size of the opening). Don't let the plants grow thru the mesh, but the mesh should be fine enough to keep any rodents out.

Pat, thanks. I will definitely plant it.

Dang it Bill . Wow! Thanks a lot man. You made my day. I wouldn't be able to find those specific info for each of them ever.

On the packages of the seeds it say "Scarification: Soak in water for 24 hours" . So , is this not necessary? Not even beneficial? I think soaking in water is not even called "scarification".

Don't worry for rodents guys. Scott, you remember i live in an apartment right? Rodents can't make it up to my balcony.

Fatih,

All I can say is, I would follow Darrell's instructions. If you google his nursery you will find the most impressive list of trees available that I have ever seen. He goes on road trips and collects all his own seed. I have tried a lot of places for my trees, I have planted over 200 so far, and he is now my go to guy. I have never got a bad tree from him! If you go to his website you can e-mail him direct if you have any questions. I think he would get a kick out of being part of you project.

Good luck my friend and happy holidays to you and your family!

Bill i wish i ordered my seeds from that Darrell guy . I dunno what quality Sheffield provides.

I will take Darrel's advices. Thanks a lot man.

Fatih,

Please keep us updated as the project moves along!

Sure i will, Bill. You have always been so helpful and interested in my project. Thank you.

Guys, i sowed Elm, Sycamore and Bur Oak. A week passed since then.

3 of 10 of Elm seeds sprouted.

Only 1 of 40 Sycamore seeds sprouted.

I guess i gotta wait for Bur seeds as Bill said. But i don't know what temperature i should keep them at.

I illuminate Elm and Sycamore seeds and sprouts with floruscent lights for 6 hours every day, so sprouts won't die.

I don't know what to do about Sycamore seeds haven't sprouted yet.


I water them with Aquarium tank water as fertilizer. I am planning to buy liquid fertilizers soon(i want maximum growth) but i don't know what kind of a fertilizer i should buy. Here is my soil analysis. Maybe it will give you a clue.

Larger image: http://i.imgur.com/FjkQI6V.jpg

Fatih

I used rabbit manure on my burr oak and it grew 10' the first year! That stuff is great on anything, very balanced- fabulous on tomatoes


Pat W

We used to raise New Zealand rabbits for a living. It is one of the best natural fertilizers there is. Now you just have to go catch one

Fatih,

IMO I would be careful about trying to fertilize them too soon. I would let them have a chance to develop some first.

For the Sycamore, remember what Darrell said

Platanus occidentalis should germinate if sown on the surface of moist soil in a warm place. You could also try them rolled up in a moist paper towel in a bag, then check them for germination every few days. Pluck out and pot up those that begin to germinate. Platanus occidentalis may have a majority of empty seeds.

For burr oak Darrell said 60 to 90 days cold moist stratification at 1-3 degrees celsius ( 32-38 degrees F )




Bill

Good thing about rabbit smart pills is that it will not burn even if fresh

Pat

Pat and FishnChips, thanks. I am taking a closer look on rabbit manure now. I guess the species of the rabbit doesn't really make a big difference, does it? Because i am not sure if i will be able to find New Zealand ones .

Pat 10' in 1 year? I am assuming you are fooling this poor foreign boy.


Bill, i know the majority of Sycamore seeds would be empty. 75% of them were floating in the water. So i knew only 10 of them were solid. But only 1 germination?

For Bur Oaks you said "The Quercus macrocarpa that have begun to show the root emerging could be sown into pots, the top shoots may take a month or two to develop. " . I thought they didn't require stratification after reading your comment.

Fatih

Smart pills are all the same, it will grow anything
Type of wabbit doesn't matter.


Pat W

The problem is that we don't have them here . I will be in the USA in June but how many of them can i keep in my luggage anyways?

Pat , i am really interested in that 10' thing. Did that Oak get 10' from seed?

Hi Fatih,

That is a comment from Darrell. I agree with you, it looks like he says plant them but it may be a couple of months before they come up. I think he was referring to the ones you said were already sprouting. Do you have enough unsprouted ones that you could try both ways?

Fatih

That burr oak was about 1/8"diameter when I planted it maybe 8" tall in its first year from in a pot. After planting it took off like crazy. The rabbit poop made it do this in one year of growth. You guys don't have any kind of domestic rabbits?


Pat W

Bill, unfortunately i do not. But i know that Bur acorns can germinate in fall as well as spring. So they don't require a warm environment really. I put them in my balcony. Temp out there is between 40-50 F . So i will wait and see. If they require stratification my balcony should be fine. If they are ready to come out this will happen anyways .

Pat , this is really amazing. What kind of a soil you have? A loose one? I read in some article that they would thrive better in loose soils since roots can spread without having difficulties. We got domestic rabbit and i can find rabbit manure. But when you said "Smart Pills" i thought that was a kind of fertilization product made of rabbit manure and looks like pills .

Fatih

Sorry that is humor between folks who raise bunnies. A local Texas thing.


Pat W

Our soil is called gumbo clay

Fatih,
I know runoff from a septic field line will produce some pretty extraordinary results as well. 10' in one year is not unheard of.
Charlie

Fatih:

Is the soil in the pots collected from the same spot that the soil test soil collected? If not, then the soil test might not be correct for what fertilizer to add.

Pat, thanks. I get it now .

Stikem, i have no runoff unfortunately. Good to know 10' is achievable.

Scott, i thought the soil taken within a couple km distance would be about the same. I guess i am wrong .


Guys , on Garden Web forum a guy is trying to tell me something, which i guess is pretty important but no matter how many times i read it i can't get his point. Can you help me with that?

If you are starting from seed anyway, as you wrote, if you start it in a pot you will have to trim the roots before you plant the tree in the ground, unless you have the right pots to airprune the seedlings, and if you do have the airpruning pots the tree will have to grow more roots in the ground to catch up to the one that was already started in the ground in the first place. It may put the tree back one year or 2, not too much but, you will need to water in a drought unless you let the acorn grow where the tree will stay, since the acorn will put down a taproot, and that seedling will not need babied in a drought. I think it is a time saver, you press the acorn in the soil on it's side barely covered or not quite soil covered, but enough that it won't blow away, and walk away, you'll likely need something to protect the acorns from animals, I use wire baskets from the dollar store. So Pushing an acorn into the damp soil, cover with a wire basket or something like it, and walk away VS digging a hole getting the depth right, covering the roots and watering, mulching and still protecting from critters and watering the first year or 2 when it doesn't rain for a few days to a week, and the tree will have to replace roots lost in transplanting to catch up to that acorn pressed into the soil. That's my best explanation.

I also have no idea why anybody would want/need to trim the roots before transplanting.

I'm with DD1 on this one. We lightly slice the outside edges if a plant is root bound in the pot, but never remove any of the roots.

You don't necessiarly need to remove roots, but slice them like Al said. While the seedling is in the container, the roots will grow out to the container, then follow the edge of the container around, making a ball so to speak. If the tree is transplanted and the roots not sliced or trimmed, they will continue to grow around and not out. Then if any wind comes up, the tree will be uprooted a lot easier.

Once the tree is transplanted into the ground, it's better if you water it in a circle at the outside of the branches vs. watering it at the trunk. Roots will grow and search for water, so getting the soil damp out away from the trunk will also help train the roots to grow wide rather than stay growing under the tree.

It's also better to water the tree slowly, for a longer period of time vs. a lot of water at once. That allows the water to soak into the soil to a greater depth and width, making the tree roots follow the water. When the tree is transplanted into the soil, mulch around the tree, but pull the mulch back from the trunk of the tree - that helps keep the moisture in the ground vs. evaporating into the air.

Google "subsurface fertilizer injection trees".

I agree with Esshup. The purpose of pruning the roots is to prevent circling and kinked roots.

I plant seeds in permeable pots such as peat pots, so the tree will air prune itself. As the roots emerge thru the pot into the air, these tips die off promoting more root growth inside the pot. I then plant the whole pot and never disturb the roots.

FWIW, out of the 90+ trees that we transplanted last month with a tree spade, one tree was tipped over by the wind the next day after transplanting. It was a VERY nice looking White Oak Tree. Very symmetrical crown, close to 20' tall, about 5"-6" DBH. It was transplanted from an area that had a high water table, and the roots didn't grow very much. The roots were maybe 1/10th the size of the crown of the tree, and weren't enough to act as an anchor for the tree.

I think the only reason why it didn't uproot in the area that it was growing was because there were other trees the same size growing in close proximity, helping protect it from the wind. Once it was transplanted, it didn't have that protection and over it went.

The tree spade was a large one, taking a plug that was approximately 5' in diameter, and 5' deep.

I generally just slice up the sides of the container and remove the entire root ball. When I transplant it, I lightly loosen the soil around the hole so the roots can spread. For this I use a fork. I like the idea of watering outside the root ball but had never thought of that.

I've never tried planting a 10 foot tree. I generally plant at about 18 inches. My biggest problem is that the rats with antlers(deer) eat the tops off the tree. I fixed that problem with remesh wire about a foot out from the new tree. I found that chicken wire is useless. The deer have also frustrated my attempts at planting grapes.

My other problem on the seedlings is protecting them from blue jays and other larger birds when they are still in the container. They will do their best to pull them up.

Dave,

I never planted one of the big ones either. Most all of mine were in the 1 to 2 foot size. I planted all mine (around 150 so far) in 5 foot tree tubes. They work great to keep the critters off them and actually seem to make the trees grow faster the first couple of years. The guy I get my tubes from sells thousands of tubes to the vineyards in CA for grapes. I bought some 3 footers for berries I will be planting in the spring. You can see some of my tubes in the attached.

Bill, the flowers are so beautiful that I had trouble finding the tubes. What kind of tubes are they? I mean what kind of material? They look like simple PVC but I'm betting that they aren't.

Where do you get them? Does the guy have a web site?

Dave,

Check out....

https://www.treeprotectionsupply.com/

Bill

Here's a pic of the meadow with the flowers in full bloom

In regards to Essups great description to watering, I would like add a little more. After soaking the ground with a slow watering, let the ground dry out before watering again. This lets the tree get used to dry spells and forces the roots to expand in looking for water. You may not want to go to long between watering when first transplanted, but eventually it needs conditioning.

My experience with trees that have major taproots that go straight down is don't mess with moving. I tried to plant some in containers and then move them, but they always seems to be WAY behind in normal growth when compared to the same thing planted "in place". Perhaps in a pot to just get the seed to "pop", but get it planted in place as soon as the weather permits.

Bill, pretty neat stuff and an innovative company. I understand it better now. The holes in the side allow both air movement and photosynthesis.

The only downside that I can see is insects getting into the tube and not knowing that they are there.

Mine came with little pieces of netting that go over the top of each tube to keep birds from building nests and insects like Japaneese beetles out. Some little bugs still get in there though! I check them every few weeks and if I see any bugs I give a little spray of insecticide.

Dave, these are what I used for the pine seedlings.

tree tubes

They worked great, and were cheap.

Wait until the conference, and I'll bring you a hundred.

F&C:

In moving the last batch of Oaks and Maples, none were seen to have a "taproot" so to speak. Nothing that you'd think was a taproot, like a carrot or any extra large root that went straight down.

Maybe it was because of the higher water table (at anywhere from 4' down and deeper)?

Even some of the Oaks that I've seen uprooted in this area by winds seem to have a taproot.

I agree about letting the soil dry out between waterings, but there's a fine line between letting it dry out enough and too much, especially in an arid climate. I think the majority of trees that Fatih is planting in that climate will need some sort of watering their whole lives.

Maybe after they are in the ground, set them up on a drip irrigation system and have a timer to keep them on a watering schedule?

Don't know... perhaps it is specific to an area and its water table. All species don't have a tap root either, and some absolutely have it (but could those even be curtailed by high water table?--- probably).

I do know that if Fatih wants the fastest growing plant, don't transplant it at all and just baby it where it will stay. But sometimes that just can't happen. As Bill C always says... it depends.





Agreed. Just don't spoil them, especially as they get older. Water early/frequently for fast/good growth, but too much water can be a bad thing too. Condition them to search/spread roots for more water when it does become available. It is a fine line.

Fireishot,

Cool tubes. I don't think I would try pines in the ones I use but I should probably try one just as an experiment. How are your pines doing? How long have they been in the tubes?

Bill

Guys i saved every single letter of this topic. Amazing how much i learnt . Some very complex conversation is going on here. So i dunno what to say over them .

Guys, i am driven crazy by my Elm seeds. 20 days since they sprouted and the tallest of them is shorter than 2 inches. My Bur sprout, which came out only 7 days ago is almost taller than my Elm sprouts.

I don't know what kind of a growth i must be expect from these seeds too. I started keeping records of them, to see how they react to different variables. I got a handful of rabbit manure from a petshop but dunno if it is too early to use them.

And should i make a compost out of this manure or just use it?

I lost couple of my Elm sprouts, because which i guess was damping off disease. They fell down suddenly, without almost any signs. They were very green too. I use Aquarium water to water them and 15 W floruscent bulb to light them up(15 W for every 2 pots). Seems quite ample...

Fatih,

I cannot say for sure if it applies to elm, but many trees will grow very little above ground in the beginning as they are putting their energy into growing and establishing a root system.

Bill D.

I hope that's right Bill. And, in this stage how much should i be watering them, so they will have a healthy root system? It is too hard to manage plants for me, even though i am home most of my time. If you water them too much , they die due to damping off. If you don't water them , they start to go down, again. If i forget the bulb turned on, it dries all the moisture and burns the plant .

Fatih,

When I used to grow plants from seed for my sister's greenhouse, I had 8 fixtures 4 feet long placed side by side. Each fixture had 2 flourescent grow bulbs 4 feet long. They make different light wavelength bulbs depending on what your goals are. Each fixture was hung by chains; making it easy to adjust the distance from the light to the plants. All the lights were on timers. I watered twice a day, morning and evening. I only watered a plant if there was no moisture in the top 1/2 inch of potting media.

Hope that helps.

Bill

Edit: Can you post a picture or two of your pots with something in the picture to provide scale? That would be helpful

Bill i will do that tomorrow. Thanks so much for your attention , again.

Here is the image Bill. Sorry that since the pot is so small it was hard to take a decent photo. Sprout is a little smaller than the drive.





I did sow ( past version of sow? ) a whole lot of Elm seeds today. I feel like very few of the elm sprouts will survive. So i wanna have at least 10 pots of elms.

By the way 10 days since i did sow Deodara seeds. No sign of germination. I digged some of the seeds out to see some sprouts but nope... I gave them 2-3 weeks of stratification too.

Guys, my Elm sprouts all died. I do not know why... My Oak sprouts are incredibly healthy. But Elms don't survive. I don't know what i am doing wrong. 10 hours lighting with 10-12 W floruscent and watering 3 times a day. Sometimes they fall of gradually but mostly it happens suddenly. Damping off?

By the way i can't believe how much Oak sprouts grew. Over 4 inches in 10 days.

Possibly too much watering?

I'd try again. Maybe from a different source.

Fatih,

I do not know the humidity where you are trying to grow the elms but watering 3 times a day seems excessive. The soil needs to be kept moist only until the seeds germinate. I see in the pictures that your pots are large. They will require less watering than small little pots. Should be once a day or every other day or even longer. Stick your finger down into the soil. If you can reach damp soil, you do not need to water.

Good luck,

Bill D.

This watering issue is making me sick guys. Can we be a little more specific? I moved my oak into a cubic pot 6x6x6 inch dimensioned. Seedling is 3 inch tall but root is even longer than this.

Now i spray my plants but this gets only 1 inch of the soil wet. Should i make sure the water reaches to the lowest spot of the root? Because i don't wanna attract them to surface. And how much water for this oak seedling? 1 glass a day? Too much?

I know i am a pain in the ass when it comes to nature. But still, i love it.

Fatih,

I am not a proffessional grower by any means. But I see you are giving yourself stress over this so I will give my OPINION.

The 6 inch deep pot is too shallow. The tap root on the oak will hit bottom very soon. Use tall skinny pots. By that I mean you need deep pots, not large diameter. Stop spraying the trees and water them by pouring water directly on the soil. When you water, add enough water to water deeply. The pots should have a drain hole in the bottom or be permeable so the excess water can escape. Water only when you cannot reach moist soil with your finger stuck in the soil. This could be a few days or once a day, depending on your soil's ability to retain water in your environment.

Bill D.

Fatih
I agree with Bill, water only when the soil feels or looks dry. Water in the morning so as to cut down on disease issues. By shallow watering you make the root system not "search" for water. By watering less often the roots will go deeper giving the tree better chances of survival


Pat

Tell me 1 thing i am doing right .

You keep saving my ass. Thanks guys. These Oak seedlings are shocking me every new day. They grow too fast and their roots... I couldn't believe when i saw all roots coming out off the drainage holes of a 1 incher Oak seedling(is seedling the right word) ? I moved them all to 6 inch pots but as you mentioned Bill, this is not gonna be enough for long. I guess in a month i will need a larger one.

God knows when i will be buying that property for my pond(might be up to 2 years depending on my financial issues) . I am afraid these Oak won't fit in a pot until then. I don't know what to do. I thought these Oaks would grow this large in a year. Not in 3 weeks .


Elm and Plane tree seeds are driving me crazy. 5 days since sowing and only 1 of 40 Elm seeds has germinated. I put 50 Plane seeds between a wet paper towel and i keep it damp. NO GERMINATION!

Seedlings is correct.

Something you might want to read:

How to grow seedlings with taproots

Thanks Scott. Good link. I dunno if we have skinny pots .

Fatih
Just look at all the experience you are getting . Plant the oaks in the ground and then when you have a place to plant get some acorns and do it again. If you keep them in pots very long they will stunt after you plant them.... Then that's a whole new story... It can be done but you have to get aggressive with the roots meaning cut and spred out cause in a pot they will go around and around in a circle causing girdling of the tree when it gets large. So it's best not to confine in a small pot or container


Pat W

Pat's right, Fatih. Now that you know what to expect, when you get the property, use a backhoe to loosen up the soil then get more seeds and plant everything in place. Even your elms might make it under those different conditions.

Pat and Dudley, i got only 1 life guys . And i want to see some old trees before i die. Because the land i will buy will be treeless. Or there will be some fruit trees that i never enjoyed having. We don't have forests like you have around my region. So, i wanna have huge trees around my house as soon as possible. This is why i started now.

Pat , do you mean "to prevent stunted growth you should prevent root bound" ? If this is what you say, i am working hard on it. I thought that air pruning pots would not allow root bound and provide a healthy growth for my plants. Not enough?