Pond Boss
Posted By: sprkplug Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/13/14 06:10 PM
I found this on page 127 of "Bluegills, Biology and Behavior", by Stephen Spotte.

This is from a study conducted during the summer, which produced results showing that the half-life of stomach fullness decreased linearly over a given temperature range...which in this case was 10-25 degrees Celsius (50F-77F).

An equation was used to demonstrate this regression:

y = 23.1-0.901x

Where y is the half-life of stomach fullness ( brought upon by digestion), and x is the water temperature in Celsius.

If we plug in their numbers, we see that at 25*C, (77*F), the elapsed time needed was only .87 hrs. However, at the other end of the scale, 10*C (50*F), the time needed increased to just over 14 hrs.

The regression is reportedly linear throughout the temps recorded during the study, but I haven't found any further information to indicate if it remains so as water temps continue to decline. However I am reasonably confident that at minimum, the time needed for digestion will continue to increase as water temps fall. If we allow for a temp. of 38*F, the time increases to over 20 hours, IF the rate continues to be linear.

This shows that time required for digestion is dependent upon temperature....the colder the water, the longer the time needed. What bearing, if any, the addition of pelleted, processed feed might have on the digestion rate is unclear to me, as are any possible ill effects that might be suffered by the fish as a result of undigested feed remaining in the stomach, vs. natural forage.

The author referenced a handful of studies in this regard, some of which are 40+ years old and may not reflect current thinking and understanding. Nevertheless, I am trying to locate these pieces to order to try and further my understanding regarding feeding processed pellets during the winter months.
Good post Tony.
More digging has resulted in a suggestion of three primary variables influencing rate of digestion: temperature, weight of food portion in the stomach, and fish weight.

It has also been suggested that duration of digestion may depend greatly on food composition and quality. This begs the question as to whether high protein feeds take longer to digest in cold temps, when compared to natural forage.

"Duration of Gastric Digestion in Fishes", V.B. Tseitlin
This is really good stuff! So let me ask this. I feed a 45% protein fish meal based pellet. Does anybody know the exchange rate between natural forage and pellets? What I mean is, if I feed 1 ounce of 45% pellets,, about how many ounces of natural forage, such as FHM or BG, are required to be equivalent?

Edit: Sorry, for clarity, I mean from a fish growth standpoint. We read everywhere 10 lbs of forage for one pound of growth. I assume that 10lbs is natural forage. How many pounds of high protein pellets to get that 1 pound of growth? Keeping in mind pellets are relatively easy for even my dumb cc to catch so it is not exactly a fair comparison to when fish are expending energy to catch the natural forage.
Bill, My simple mind wonders how much of the "10 pounds of forage" is water and any other non-digestible or other matter that is unable to be utilized. With processed, "high digestibility" feeds, LMB convert at about a 4:1 ratio. My SWAG is that only about 4 pounds of "natural" forage is digested...

Another factor that could play a huge part in weight gain is the amount of calories expended hunting natural forage. Chasing 300 (~1#) adult fatheads will burn FAR more calories than gulping down a 1# trout (arguably the ideal bass forage fish)
I heard that it's a two to one, two pounds of feed makes one pound of fish.



Pat W


All I know is that my fish reall look fat and growing fast when I started feeding
Pat, a lot depends on species and also the feed, but I am pretty sure for Northern Black bass, quality fish food is converted at close to the 4:1 ratio. Tilapia get around 1.2:1...Catfish and bluegill around 3:1
Rainman
Even those rates are far better than the 10-1 for forage fish conversion. What's also good is the benefits that the predators get by eating whatever just ate the feed. Win win


Pat W
Now correct me if I am wrong here but I would expect the 10-1 ratio is the ratio of true cellular material to water in natural feed. % of oils and protein would depend on the feed fish.

I would expect there is at least 10% water in pellets too. Maybe even 20%.

Cheers Don.
Anyone else remember the story told by Bob Lusk about meeting with... (was it Griffin?) concerning the largemouth feed being developed?

Where the fellow opens the drawer and pulls out a dog turd looking little thing, and announces that this is the nutritional equivalent of a trout?

Maybe I'm thinking of something else.
I see PBM did an article in the Jan/Feb 1996 issue on "supplemental feeding in the off season" if anybody has a copy.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Anyone else remember the story told by Bob Lusk about meeting with... (was it Griffin?) concerning the largemouth feed being developed?

Where the fellow opens the drawer and pulls out a dog turd looking little thing, and announces that this is the nutritional equivalent of a trout?

Maybe I'm thinking of something else.


Sparky, I don't recall that particular story. I know Dr Griffin was attempting to make a feed equivalent to trout. I also recall hearing some feed manufacturing company claiming they had created the equal(Cargill?), but fish refused to eat it...
While researching, I'm discovering what Rainman already knows and is patiently attempting to explain in another thread currently exploring this subject. That being that undigested food may be expelled without contributing much by way of growth to the fish. I THINK this is encouraging, as it may imply that the processed feed is purged, rather than just laying in the stomach, undigested.

On the other hand, this MAY also support the hypothesis that winter feeding provides very little benefit to certain species of fish, most notably warm water species. Even if they are willing to feed, cold water inhibits or at least depresses digestion, and undigested feed is simply expelled.

This tidbit also came from "Bluegills, Biology and Behavior", by Stephen Spotte.
I have found that my fish quit feeding on pellets at a higher temp than those up North.
With all of this recent talk regarding Koi, and Garden Web, I thought I would nose around and see what's going on in the ornamental fish world. As is often the case, it's difficult to find information that you feel comfortable trusting. So keep that in mind as you are reading through these links....and most importantly as far as I'm concerned, remember that Koi are not bluegills...what may be applicable for one, doesn't automatically translate well for the other.

Some professional info...4 links under the banner "technical information". Written by a very familiar, and extremely knowledgeable person:
http://www.mazuri.com/koi.aspx?gclid=CIiD64KFyMICFQwyaQodsWIA3Q

The claim is made here: http://www.thekoikeepers.com/feeding/feeding.html that Koi do not possess a true stomach, rather digestion takes place in the long "gut" (intestine?). If true, maybe this explains a thing or two?

This link extolls the virtues of feeding Koi a product high in wheat germ in preparation for winter, in order to help clean out the digestive tract. They also claim once water temps fall below 50*, any food remaining in the fish may begin to spoil.
http://www.koi-fish.com/koi-care/feeding.html

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything by posting these links, especially regarding our pond fish which appear to be quite different from Koi, in a digestive manner of speaking. Just seeing what all the commotion is about.

I don't know how accurate this info may, or may not be. The question of whether anything relevant can be extrapolated from these links, goes unanswered by me.
This is all very interesting stuff.

I wonder how much this relates to beneficial bacteria in the stomach/gut of the fish? Depending on the water type, genetics, food sources, climate, etc. I wonder if the same species of fish in different ponds may possess quite different flora in their digestive tract to help them absorb a particular diet under certain conditions?

What may be present in southern ponds, may not thrive in northern ponds, which may explain some differences in eating patterns. Since fish are so good at moderating their internal PH and such vs the water they are in, who is to say they cannot somewhat influence the chemistry of their innards to favor a type of flora to digest a food source available to them? It may take them time to adjust this, and thus fast temperature swings and water chemistry cause a drop in appetite as they are playing catch-up internally?

Just thinking out loud, but I think a lot is misunderstood about the role of beneficial bacteria in most animal's guts and how it interacts with health.

My perch would love to eat right up to ice over, maybe even after. I stop at 50 degrees, but they are quite active even under the ice. I always thought they floated around like logs until I got my underwater camera down there and took a look. They were clearly actively hunting for food and curious about the camera.
Posted By: snrub Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/15/14 07:23 PM
Originally Posted By: sprkplug


On the other hand, this MAY also support the hypothesis that winter feeding provides very little benefit to certain species of fish, most notably warm water species. Even if they are willing to feed, cold water inhibits or at least depresses digestion, and undigested feed is simply expelled.

This tidbit also came from "Bluegills, Biology and Behavior", by Stephen Spotte.


It also may go along with N8tly's comments in the other thread about there not being a good commercially available feed for winter feeding yet. Maybe the natural food the fish catch digests just fine in cold water, but the artificial food is not of the best composition for cold water digestion. He implied that if a commercial food does come out for cold water feeding, its composition will be considerably different than current feeds.
Posted By: ewest Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/15/14 07:51 PM
We had a program at the PB conv (Fish nutrition)0n this topic. It is metabolism (bioenergetics theory). I will add some threads.


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post126584


Bioenergetic models estimated that the largemouth bass population in these ponds consumed between 132 and 171 kg ha (roughly 150 lbs per acre) of bluegills in the first 300 days after stocking to maintain the observed growth.

Each population of largemouth bass was predicted to have consumed 4.2 to 6.7 times their own biomass in bluegills in 300 days to maintain these growth rates and biomass.


Recent research has revealed consumption-dependent error in many bioenergetic models, including the one used in this study, which was particularly large when growth rates were fast . Thus, the percent of maximum consumption by largemouth bass estimated in this study were likely underestimated which probably indicates that the bluegill densities in the ponds used in this study may not be great enough to meet predator demand in the future, leading to slower growth, poorer condition, and a possibly lower production of trophy-sized fish.


A little confusion on the BG size. The catch rate BG were 5 inch average while the stock size (150% of normal in the study or the recommended 2000 at the convention) were small BG as were the LMB when stocked.


In this study LMB numbers were low and survival to age 1 was below normal. Even at those reduced rates the LMB were most likely to have over eaten the BG forage base which was 150% of normal if the study would have gone beyond 1 year.


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post175828


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post259185

North American Journal of Aquaculture
Volume 65, Issue 2, 2003

Evaluation of Practical Bluegill Diets with Varying Protein and Energy Level

DOI:
10.1577/1548-8454(2003)65<147:EOPBDW>2.0.CO;2
Richard H. Hoagland IIIa, D. Allen Davisa, Nguyen Anh Tuana & William J. McGrawa
pages 147-150

No problems related to water quality or disease were encountered during the experiment. As indicated by their high survival (>98%), the fish were able to tolerate repeated handling and weighing. The performance of the fish under laboratory conditions is summarized in Table 2. Fish maintained on a diet containing 44% protein and 8% lipid (designated as D44/8; other diets designated analogously) exhibited significantly higher final weight (12.99 versus 9.36–10.70 g) and weight gain (643.9% versus 429.7–507.3%) than fish maintained on diets containing lower levels of protein. Fish given D44/8 also had significantly higher feed efficiency (77.9%) than those on diets with lower levels of protein (60.6–66.7%). Total feed offered was significantly higher for fish maintained on D44/8 (14.4 g) and D44/12 (14.2 g) than for those on D32/10 (12.6 g) and D32/6 (12.5 g), with the remaining diets being intermediate. No significant differences or notable trends in the protein conversion efficiency values among fish given the various diets were found. Proximate analyses for dry matter, protein, and lipid in whole-body samples were similar among all but one of the treatments. The single exception was the proportion of dry matter in fish maintained on D32/10, which was higher than that in fish from all other treatments.



From Fish Nutrition



• The immense variety of cultured finfish species hampers efforts to simplify production industry wide. Approximately 170 taxa are currently cultured, including carnivores, herbivores, planktivores, and omnivores, each posing its own set of nutritional demands .
• Fish meal has proven to be an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading to its description as an ‘‘ideal protein.’’ The ideal protein concept is based on the premise that if the amino acid profile of the feed mimics the whole-body amino acid profile of the animal being fed, protein utilization and growth should be maximized
• Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in virtually every physiological process that occurs and for this reason dietary lipid composition and content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition. Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition of finfish, a testament to the physiological and energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish, which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.
• Dietary protein and energy must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of dietary energy can reduce growth rates. Fish fed diets deficient in energy will metabolize more expensive dietary protein to meet energy requirements. Excess dietary energy can decrease protein intake and suppress growth.
• finfish do not require carbohydrates in their diet, … complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most finfish species. A general dichotomy exists in the carbohydrate digestive ability of warmwater omnivores and herbivores versus the inability of coolwater and coldwater carnivores, which lack the appropriate function necessary for digestion of carbohydrates.
• For this reason, diets fed to these fish rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate
• Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate .
• Although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, … Every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.

• Because fish growth often is limited by food availability, supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments as the energy cost for bluegill to feed on pellets is small relative to the high caloric intake, which can be 4-5 times greater than those fed natural foods (Schalles and Wissing 1976).
• Substantial increases in the standing stock of bluegill in ponds that receive pellet feed have been recorded (Schmittou 1969) and, in lakes, pellet feeding has been found to increase the number of large bluegills (Nail and Powell 1975).
• These results indicate that total fish production and production of bluegill were each increased approximately 75 to 80% by supplemental feeding in 19 months after stocking (Schmittou 1967)

• Previous studies demonstrated that feed in excess of 10 pounds per acre per day in bluegill ponds was not utilized. Some accumulated and decomposed, thus depleting the supply of dissolved oxygen which resulted in fish kills (Schmittou 1967) .
• the rate of growth of sunfish can be increased by short-circuiting the food cycle, thereby producing harvestable size sunfish in a shorter period of time than would occur under natural conditions (Carnes 1966).
• The pellet size should be approximately 20-30% of the size of the fish species mouth gape. Feeding too small a pellet results in inefficient feeding because more energy is used in finding and eating more pellets. Conversely, pellets that are too large will depress feeding and, in the extreme, cause choking. Select the largest sized feed the fish will actively eat.
• Addition of supplemental pelleted feed did not contribute to the rate of growth of young shad, but did increase the growth and spawning frequency of adults.



Ewest, thank you for taking the time to contribute to this thread. I should probably admit however, that trying to absorb and comprehend all of that great info will take me a LONG time, IF I am even up to the task in the first place.

I don't like to pull bits from here, and pieces from there, and then try to assemble them into some semblance of coherency. I think it's too easy to lose vital, supporting information about the whole picture if one is simply grabbing pieces of the puzzle and jamming them together haphazardly, in an effort to make the picture into what they think it should look like. Your efforts to showcase the entire picture are always appreciated.

Understanding that, are you aware of any studies or trials concentrating on the pros and cons of feeding processed, high protein pelleted feed to bluegills during cold water periods?
Sparkplug........thank you for this very informative thread. I've recently (since August) been feeding a mix of GFC and Cargill 4512 through an automatic feeder. The larger feed floats and the smaller feed sinks. I mixed the (2) feeds after a conversation with Todd Overton. Todd didn't suggest that I mix them, but indicated it would not hurt to do so and would be interesting to see what became of it. The fish have been feeding religiously (on the surface). The feeder ran out of feed this week. As the winter months are upon us, I've been indecisive as to whether I would re-fill the feeder immediately or not for my (CNBG & RES)forage base. I surely don't want to keep dumping feed into the water if they are not going to feed. Also, I don't want to feed if the fish can't utilize the nutrients, so here I am. SE Texas winters are not too harsh. The pond has several underground springs feeding it and always seems to have fog on the water on cold mornings. I'm not sure if (and when) the temperature will get low enough (sub 50) and stay there. Any suggestions or further info will be most appreciated.
Charlie
Thanks for the kind words Charlie, but at this point I'm not sure if informative is the adjective best suited to describe this topic. Ruffled feathers was not the outcome I had hoped for.

Maybe someone from the Texas assemblage can share what has worked for them in winters' past? As for me, in my location, I'm not going to feed. There just appears to be more 'cons' than 'pros', even if the possibility of harming my fish is removed from the picture.

I'm still digging though.
Sparkplg

Ruffled feathers can be smoothed out over time. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs! I am still feeding just once a day now and the CNBG are going at it fairly well cause the weather has been mild. Keep up the good work as everybody will be the better for it

Pat W
Sparkplug...I hope you continue asking those questions to make everyone think and reflect. That's what learning is all about...
Charlie
Great thread. If the water temperature is 45F or above and the fish regardless of the species are willing to eat floating pellets then giving the fish some or a reduced amount of food would IMO be okay. This does at least two things. 1. It keeps the fish better habituated to pellet food. 2. I keeps the fish eating and maintaining their weight or even gaining some weight. A fish that stops actively feeding below 50F has to rely on body fat for nutrition which often means using some body biomass for energy and life processes(see below). Reduced feeding does usually occur in many species during winter water temps of 39-45F depending on water temps. In many ponds with fish biomass at near or above carrying capacity natural foods are usually limited numbers (density) due to the large number of grazers (consumers). Most all ponds that receive fish pellets have fish biomass above normal carrying capacity which means high inter and intra competition. Thus not a lot of natural foods are readily available during the cold water months when fish are crowded. Vulnerable prey items quickly disappear.

When I researched winter fish behavior during cold water temperatures under ice cover for overwintering fish in cages, one reference noted that fish do not need to actively feed or do not need to feed during winter months to stay alive. The reference noted that many fish in 39F water do not have to feed and can absorb enough minerals from the surrounding water to stay alive and healthy until water warms in spring. This assumes dissolved oxygen remains adequate for fish survival.

Several studies have noted that non-feeding fish in winter will loose weight after utilizing fat reserves. Some fish will even utilize body protein for energy production when fat reserves are depleted. When the fish resumes feeding all lost body mass has to be replaced before weight is added to the fish's body condition (weight and growth) prior to when feeding stopped. Anything that the fish can 'safely' eat during cold water conditions will allow more top end growth before it dies. As noted during cold water temperatures, some types of pellet foods might be detrimental to some fish species depending on the fish species and the water temperature.
Thanks, Bill... I did have a concern that the fish would have to "re-train" themselves to pellet feed this spring. Also, I can see where fish, in a new pond (like mine), would not have as much natural forage to winterover on than if the pond was more developed. Another concern was if the food pellets (that I already have) would go stale, dry out, or would go bad (spoil or mildew) in sealed 5 gal buckets. This is my first winter in my first year pond. With all that said, I believe I will continue to feed. I see no value in having to put weight back on the fish this spring when I can just maintain, if not increase their weight this. Winter.
Charlie
I'm significantly North of you and will continue to feed as long as they will eat. If I get warm spell, I'll toss out some more.
As an additional note, I always hand feed my fish hydrated pellets aka softened pellets. I do this for several reasons, four main reasons are 1. smaller fish can easily eat a larger pellet and expend less energy getting that pellet. 2. a non pellet trained fish will much more readily accept and learn to eat a soft pellet compared to a hard pellet, 3. softened or moist pellets are easier and quicker for fish to digest in cold water, and 4. I can easily mold together several pellets into a large pellet for larger fish. Many fish seem to "like" the larger soft pellets compared to smaller hard pellets. The large pellet can either float or sink depending on how much air is squeezed from the pellet grouping. The larger fish appear to prefer the larger pellets because the larger fish rise primarily for the large pellets or grouping of pellets and ignore small pellets. Hydrated pellets are more time consuming and bothersome to produce, however I do not feed a lot of pellets each day and I think the benefits of using soft pellets for me in the long run outweigh the disadvantages. I live and work at the pond site so softening pellets is not a big problem.
+1..

I'm a fan of hydrated pellets myself.
Posted By: ewest Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/16/14 11:16 PM
One reason to keep feeding a little , if they will eat is to stop what Bill describes ... "Some fish will even utilize body protein for energy production when fat reserves are depleted." On this point take note that the usage by many fish species of their lipid (fat) reserves to a large extent can lead to death.

Here is a past note on HSB reaction to cold and its effects on body metabolism and function leading to death.

It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another . Due to cellular disfunction from low lipids the fish lock up stiffen and heart and respiration stop.

For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8°C and 6.5°C (Satoh et al. 1984).



The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and

Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in

which the species can grow and survive. the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival.

In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.

Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature

determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption

of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes

(Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations.

The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures.

See this thread http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111414&page=1

For ease of reference -- one post


Death of fish when oxygen is depleted and concentrations of carbon

dioxide build up beneath snow-covered ice is a common phenomenon

in the North Central States (Greenbank, 1945; Bennett, 1948b; Cooper

and Washburn, 1949). For the Marion County farm ponds information

on .occurrence of winterkill has been gathered from two sources: from

farmers and others who observed numbers of dead fish in ponds following

the breakup of ice, and from pond histories that indicate a sudden mass

disappearance of bass, of .bluegills, or of both. While in many cases there

is no evidence as to the time of year when such fish disappeared, heavy

mortality during the summer was observed by *he pond owners only once

(Pond 16) while winterkill was observed frequently. The chances of mass

mortality of fis•h being unobserved are probably greater in the win,ter than

the summer.

It appears that fish populations in 31 of the ponds suffered winterkill

(Table 6). In 15 ponds bass were eliminated but some bluegills survived;

in two ponds the reverse was true, with bluegills winterkilled while some

bass survived. The differential in mortality between these two species may

represent a difference in tolerance to low oxygen levels (though Cooper

and Washrburn, 1949, found none), but more likely it may represent

a difference in location within the pond during wintertime and ability

of some individuals to ioca•te and utilize pockets of water containing suf-

ficient oxygen for survival.

Complete kills of both bass and bluegills occurred in 18 ponds. Thirteen

of the 18 ponds also contained bullheads, and these always survived in

some numbers.

Some ponds winterkill repeatedly, as is shown by the frequency of some

pond numbers in Table 6.

T^BLE &--Known or suspected winterkills of fish in Iowa farm fish ponds

Species eliminated by kill Pond numbers

Bass, but not bluegills ..........................

3, 19, 19, 20, 24, 24, 29, 30, 32,

32, 35, 37, 40, 47, 48, 49, 49, 49,

50, 59

Bluegills, but not bass ..........................

3, 27

Bass and bluegills ...............................

9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 20,

23, 27, 31, 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 47,

49, 55, 56

Some bass and some bluegills ...................

94, 15, 25, 37, 45

Winterkill is believed to be a major factor in the lack of population

balance and success of Iowa ponds. The population remaining after an

incomplete kill is often very different than that presen.t before, and the

change is usually unfavorable for .angling (Bennett, 1948a). Of the ponds

which winterkilled, one-half had Ibeen listed as muddy with colloidal clay,

and one-third were known to have had low water levels going into the

winter season.



Data sources used for analysis of geographic variations in acute temperature preferences of fishes.

Redear sunfish, Lepomis microlophm'

Hill et al. (1975) Oklahoma 16.0-26.0

Still others, particularly the centrarchids, showed

occasional low thermal responsiveness. Fishes

continued to seek increased temperatures until

they succumbed due to physiological inability

to adjust to a rapid increase in temperature in

a steep gradient.


When raising hybrid striped bass in cages, several producers have reported sudden losses of hybrids when the water temperature rapidly decreased by several degrees in a relatively short period of time (Valenti 1989; A. M. Kelly and C. C. Kohler, personal observation). The rapid onset of cold temperatures has been reported as the cause of death in several species of fish (Verril 1901; Storey 1937; Galloway 1941; Gunther 1941; Ash et al. 1974; Coutant 1977; Mitchell 1990). It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another (Hazel 1984; Greene and Selivonchick 1987; Henderson and Tocher 1987). Phospholipids are the class of lipids in which the most obvious changes occur. As environmental temperatures decrease, the invariable response is an increase in fatty acid unsaturation (Johnston and Roots 1964; Caldwell and Vernberg 1970; Hazel 1979; Cossins and Prosser 1982). Conversely, as ambient temperatures increase, phospholipid saturation must also increase to avoid excess fluidity. The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in which the species can grow and survive. For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8°C and 6.5°C (Satoh et al. 1984). Viola et al. (1988) demonstrated that the common carp Cyprinus carpio, which is capable of mobilizing lipids from muscular and visceral deposits, is able to survive to 4.5°C under the same conditions.

The amount of unsaturated fatty acids in the muscle is believed to affect a fish's ability to tolerate lower temperatures (Hoar and Dorchester 1949; Hoar and Cottle 1952a, 1952b). In general, the tissue temperature of fish is within 1°C of the ambient water temperature (Carey et al. 1971; Reynolds et al. 1976). Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes (Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations. The rate of increase in the ability of fish to tolerate higher temperatures usually requires less than 24 h at temperatures above 20°C, whereas the gain in resistance to lower temperatures is a much slower process, requiring up to 20 d in some species (Doudoroff 1942; Brett 1944). The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures. The simulated cold front in this study resulted in higher mortalities
Diets influence the fatty acid composition in several species of fish (Henderson and Tocher 1987; Lovell 1989; Seo et al. 1994), and the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. For example, summer harvest syndrome is an anomaly seen in goldfish Carassius auratus when they are harvested in the summer and placed in tanks containing water that is colder than the pond water (Mitchell 1990). The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.

Although it has been hypothesized that temperature is closely linked to membrane composition, relatively few studies have been conducted to determine if a correlation exists between lipid composition and cold tolerance. This study was designed to determine the effect of a sudden temperature change (a simulated cold front) on striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids fed either a natural or prepared diet, as well as to determine their lower incipient lethal temperature. The association of fatty acid composition and unsaturated: saturated fatty acid ratios in these fish were examined with respect to their tolerance to cold.

We demonstrated that diet-induced muscle fatty acid composition directly affects cold tolerance of striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids. Fish fed fathead minnows had fatty acid ratios 10–25% higher than fish fed a prepared diet. When subjected to a simulated cold front, all groups of fish fed the prepared diet suffered high mortality (50–90%) whereas the groups fed the natural diet experienced zero mortalities. The LILT was also higher for fish fed the prepared diet.



Fish deaths due to cold temperatures have frequently been reported. It is generally believed that deaths arise from the rapidity of dropping temperatures whereby the fish are unable to acclimate to the lower temperature despite being within their biokinetic range. It is consequently critical especially in autumn to feed fish of the genus Morone, and possibly other genera, a diet that is relatively low in saturated fats when they are confined to surface waters in cages or pens.
Any information regarding what the 'prepared diet' may have consisted of?


And thanks again ewest!
Posted By: snrub Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/16/14 11:42 PM
Interesting stuff Eric. Thanks.

Goes along with what N8tly said about winter feed needing a different composition than what we are now feeding.
OH.








MY.










GOD!




Is this thread still going?!




Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Great thread. If the water temperature is 45F or above and the fish regardless of the species are willing to eat floating pellets then giving the fish some or a reduced amount of food would IMO be okay. This does at least two things. 1. It keeps the fish better habituated to pellet food. 2. I keeps the fish eating and maintaining their weight or even gaining some weight. A fish that stops actively feeding below 50F has to rely on body fat for nutrition which often means using some body biomass for energy and life processes(see below). Reduced feeding does usually occur in many species during winter water temps of 39-45F depending on water temps. In many ponds with fish biomass at near or above carrying capacity natural foods are usually limited numbers (density) due to the large number of grazers (consumers). Most all ponds that receive fish pellets have fish biomass above normal carrying capacity which means high inter and intra competition. Thus not a lot of natural foods are readily available during the cold water months when fish are crowded. Vulnerable prey items quickly disappear.

When I researched winter fish behavior during cold water temperatures under ice cover for overwintering fish in cages, one reference noted that fish do not need to actively feed or do not need to feed during winter months to stay alive. The reference noted that many fish in 39F water do not have to feed and can absorb enough minerals from the surrounding water to stay alive and healthy until water warms in spring. This assumes dissolved oxygen remains adequate for fish survival.

Several studies have noted that non-feeding fish in winter will loose weight after utilizing fat reserves. Some fish will even utilize body protein for energy production when fat reserves are depleted. When the fish resumes feeding all lost body mass has to be replaced before weight is added to the fish's body condition (weight and growth) prior to when feeding stopped. Anything that the fish can 'safely' eat during cold water conditions will allow more top end growth before it dies. As noted during cold water temperatures, some types of pellet foods might be detrimental to some fish species depending on the fish species and the water temperature.


Thanks Bill!

If we cautiously acknowledge that our current feed choices MAY not contain the optimum formulation of ingredients preferred for cold water feeding, any thoughts on what might constitute a 'cold water blend' for bluegills?
I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.


Bill,

Please expand on your thoughts about a low fat diet. I have been following along thru this thread learning at almost every post. I probably have some things wrong and feel free to call me on it. I am here to learn.

My understanding so far is fish pretty much live off their fat when water temperatures drop and feeding slows. My thoughts then went to what would a winter diet consist of that slows that consumption of the built up fat. What would that diet need to be to "preserve" or "build " fat? I guess I was thinking you want a diet high in fat. What diet would slow the depletion of the stored fat?

Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.
According to Dr. Brown, fish diet researcher at Purdue it's excess carbs in the artificial diet that are creating the excess fat. That said some types of fats in feed don't dissolve well in cold water digestive tracts.

I has a 7 1/2 inch YOY yellow perch die in one of my tanks today. The netting I use to keep them from jumping out had come loose where it's fastened to the tank and the perch had become gill netted in it. Anyway I skinned it out and will mounting it in a pike's mouth. It's abdominal cavity was loaded with fat.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.


Very similar. One based hopefully on science, the other on faith. Sort of a Ptolemaic vs. Heliocentric debate, PondBoss style.



Minus the threats of torture, imprisonment, or being burned at the stake of course.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Cecil, you may be thinking of the other thread?

Here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394967&page=1


My bad. You're right. OTOH it seems to me this thread is similar.


Very similar. One based hopefully on science, the other on faith. Sort of a Ptolemaic vs. Heliocentric debate, PondBoss style.



Minus the threats of torture, imprisonment, or being burned at the stake of course.

laugh
Posted By: snrub Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/17/14 02:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I think a good start for winter diets would be a lower fat content especially one with lower saturated fat.

It is always useful to keep important topics readily available to members. Discussion often leads to new ideas even if it is an old topic.


Bill,

Please expand on your thoughts about a low fat diet. I have been following along thru this thread learning at almost every post. I probably have some things wrong and feel free to call me on it. I am here to learn.

My understanding so far is fish pretty much live off their fat when water temperatures drop and feeding slows. My thoughts then went to what would a winter diet consist of that slows that consumption of the built up fat. What would that diet need to be to "preserve" or "build " fat? I guess I was thinking you want a diet high in fat. What diet would slow the depletion of the stored fat?



Bill D. you took the words out of my mouth. That is also what I got from reading the material. Like maybe we needed a high fat diet going into winter, but it for sure needed to be the "right kind" of fat. The wrong kind would cause the fish to die. ??????????? Did I read everything wrong?

It appears to my non-expert self, that the safest "supplemental winter feeding" would be with supplemental fish. Like minnows or something that would represent very closely to the target fish own makeup.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...Maybe someone from the Texas assemblage can share what has worked for them in winters' past? As for me, in my location, I'm not going to feed. There just appears to be more 'cons' than 'pros', even if the possibility of harming my fish is removed from the picture...

Tony, I do feed all my CNBG winter, but not every day. I hit both feeders late every afternoon, and feed lightly based on hand throws. If the fish are active, I go ahead with a 1-2 second throw. If they have gone deep and are not feeding, then I forgo the feeder throw all together. I feed during the winter for 2 reasons. One, I want to maintain any growth through the cold months, and two, I want to make sure my CNBG don't wander too far away from the feeders at any given time.

The HSB I feed every day by hand.

My water is 52 degrees as of yesterday, and most days the CNBG are still eating well at this temp. Long term, I just don't have enough experience to even venture a guess as to winter growth.

Interesting thread.
Al, with my very limited experience I agree with what you're doing. Throwing by hand is a great way to gauge the fishes response, to see whether additional feeding is warranted or not. I usually feed down to 50 degrees, then quit unless we have a few warm days in a row.

Our native BG will usually quit feeding before the HBG will, temperature wise.
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...Maybe someone from the Texas assemblage can share what has worked for them in winters' past? As for me, in my location, I'm not going to feed. There just appears to be more 'cons' than 'pros', even if the possibility of harming my fish is removed from the picture...

Tony, I do feed all my CNBG winter, but not every day. I hit both feeders late every afternoon, and feed lightly based on hand throws. If the fish are active, I go ahead with a 1-2 second throw. If they have gone deep and are not feeding, then I forgo the feeder throw all together. I feed during the winter for 2 reasons. One, I want to maintain any growth through the cold months, and two, I want to make sure my CNBG don't wander too far away from the feeders at any given time.

The HSB I feed every day by hand.

My water is 52 degrees as of yesterday, and most days the CNBG are still eating well at this temp. Long term, I just don't have enough experience to even venture a guess as to winter growth.

Interesting thread.


Al,
What type of protein based feed do you throw during the winter? Fish meal or grain based? High or low fat content?
Charlie
Charlie, I throw Cargill year round. IIRC, the various numbers are pretty close to Purina Aquamax, but I'll check next time I get out.
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Charlie, I throw Cargill year round. IIRC, the various numbers are pretty close to Purina Aquamax, but I'll check next time I get out.



Al,
If you are throwing Cargill, then it is most likely a fish meal protein. I throw cargill 4512 mixed with GFC. 45% protein and 12% fat. Not sure how that stacks up to other pellets. But I think I will continue to throw it this winter.
Charlie
Interesting..

I feed Keystone (a fish meal pellet)

Not less than 45% protein
Not less than 16% fat.

When I see the words "not less than" on a label I associate that with being a good thing. I live in Northern Illinois so don't winter feed. I wonder if a high fat content is maybe a good thing for summer feeding?
Ewest may be able to use his access to the literature to help some more with this. Cecil noted that the high carbohydrate diet is bad for the fish at least most fish. At this point I agree, but I am not a fish nutritionist. Mentioned earlier was complex carbohydrates are not digestible by fish. So if carbs as Cecil (via Dr.Brown)says are creating the excess fat, then the carbs must be simple digestible carbs that are the problem with the fish food creating excess fat. If the carbs are not digestible they will be passed and not create fat. From ewest's post the proper type of fat is also important for the health of at least some fish species; probably the low saturated fats are best.

Keep in mind two things. 1. We usually have ready access on only one type of fish food. So we feed the highest protein food that we have available regardless of the composition or brand.
2. Current diet content of commercial fish foods is to grow the fish quickest for a market harvest. This philosophy has no consideration for a long healthy life span for the fish to grow longer from large size to the trophy categories. Cecil, others, and I are seeing rapid growth of fish fed pellets which leads to early deaths or short life spans i.e. premature deaths. This is not a concern or goal of the fish food manufacturers; rapid growth to harvest size is the goal.

Back to the topic of what is the best food for winter foraging fish. I think it is a food or diet that mimics natural foods of fish in winter. Here is where ewest or others can help. What is the protein, carbohydrate, and fat content of BG, FHM or even common pond invertebrates eaten by most panfish? That composition will most likely be the best diet for sport fish in winter.

Here is a link to what is present in menhaden fish meal.
http://www.ingredients101.com/fishmeal.htm
note the protein and fat content. Fat is primarily fatty acids - oil consistency - unsaturated. Carbohydrates are not listed for menhaden meal.
More good stuff...learning a lot!
Posted By: ewest Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/18/14 09:08 PM
The best food (lipids and protein) are the ones that most closely match those used (present in the) by the consuming i.e. predator fish. More later on some specifics.

The following is from Mark Griffin fish food phd

Griffin
Lunker

Registered: 31/03/07
Posts: 10
Loc: Pacific, MO Just depends on what warm water fish you are feeding and what results you desire. For instance, when grown at 80 F, fingerling Hybrid Striped Bass growth varied significantly, depending on both type and content of dietary protein and content of fat. Catfish formulations are plant based, while good trout/salmon formulations are animal based (preferably fish based). Strictly carnivorous fish do not do as well on plant-protein based diets. Below, diets are described in terms of Protein/fat, so a 40/10 is 40% protein and 10% fat (the OLD reliable trout diet).

36/8 (plant based)... 280% Weight Gain X
42/4 (plant based)....347% " 1.24X
35/10 (fish based)....432% " 1.54X
44/8 (fish based)....487% " 1.74X
55/15 (fish based)....650% " 2.32X**

It is important to note that all of these diets were high quality, they were just designed for different purposes and vary greatly in cost. For instance the 36/8 is designed for channel catfish fingerlings and the 55/15 is designed for Atlantic Salmon fingerlings. The 55/15 may cost 4 times as much as the plant based 36, so the economics are certainly arguable... just depends.

**Additionally, the ultra high growth on the 55/15 should be taken with a grain of salt as it resulted in obese fish (HSB very efficiently lay down dietary fat in their abdominal cavity), indeed the whole-body fat of HSB fed the 55/15 was 62% greater than that of the fish fed the 42/4.

Lets revisit this topic on LMB this fall as Bob Lusk is working on a trial this summer that should give us some more to discuss. Mark


Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.

Holler if you have questions. MEG
Posted By: snrub Re: Rate of digestion relative to temperature. - 12/18/14 09:39 PM
Were the above studies done on fish in complete confinement where their entire diet was dependent on the supplied feed?

I would surmise the more dependent the fish are on eating only commercial feed, the higher the requirement of proper quality feed would be compared to feed being used as a supplement where a lot of natural food source was available.

Would that be a fair statement to make?
Originally Posted By: snrub
Were the above studies done on fish in complete confinement where their entire diet was dependent on the supplied feed?

I would surmise the more dependent the fish are on eating only commercial feed, the higher the requirement of proper quality feed would be compared to feed being used as a supplement where a lot of natural food source was available.

Would that be a fair statement to make?


Snrub,

You and I are still on the same page.

Bill D.
It would be extremely difficult to monitor and/or observe a fish' total diet in a more "natural" pond setting. Even more difficult long term since the most effective way to determine a natural diet is to either analyze fecal matter/urine, or cut it open and examine stomach/intestinal contents.
Another good way to obtain contents of fish stomachs is various methods or types of flushing.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=ncfwrustaff

Gastric lavage
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=ncfwrustaff

The lavage technique and diagram
http://www.nativefishlab.net/library/textpdf/13644.pdf

Foster, J. R. 1977. Pulsed gastric lavage: an efficient
method of removing the stomach contents of live
fish. Progressive Fish-Culturist 39:166–169.
Since this thread is about diet, I would like some thoughts on this scenario.

So you are at the river fishing next summer and you catch a few suckers, chubs, carp, etc. Is filleting out those "trash" fish, cutting them into pellet size chunks and feeding them to your pond fish a good idea or bad idea? Freeze those fish "pellets" for later use? Maybe dry them and hydrate them again before you use them as supplemental feed?
Quote:
Is filleting out those "trash" fish, cutting them into pellet size chunks and feeding them to your pond fish a good idea or bad idea?

I see nothing basically wrong with doing this other than the extra effort that it requires to get the end product. Often fish are pellet trained by first using chopped fish or crushed krill (zooplankton) to get the fish used to eating sinking particles or chopped pieces of fish or sometimes other types of meat/fish. It might be more productive to instead of using outside the pond trash fish, use culled fish from the pond. Most all ponds need to have some fish removed to maintain the optimum balance of species for optimum growth based on one's goals. Some members here cull small BG, mildly inhibit their swimming ability, and hand feed them to the bass. Bass in the pond will quickly 'learn' the new feeding routine.
Hey, with a little pond like mine, it's not work. It's just fun and trying different things! 100% natural supplemental food. I will try all the above and let you guys know how it works out.

I know this is an unpopular approach here, but my bass will be used to control population of other species only. They will be harvested 14+ and restock or recruitment will maintain their population. With that said, my original YP will be allowed to grow to a ripe old age.

And no the bass harvested will not meet hot grease. They will be steamed with exotic Thai spices that compliment their delicate flavor!
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Hey, with a little pond like mine, it's not work. It's just fun and trying different things! 100% natural supplemental food. I will try all the above and let you guys know how it works out.

I know this is an unpopular approach here, but my bass will be used to control population of other species only. They will be harvested 14+ and restock or recruitment will maintain their population. With that said, my original YP will be allowed to grow to a ripe old age.

And no the bass harvested will not meet hot grease. They will be steamed with exotic Thai spices that compliment their delicate flavor!


Oh I don't know about that...I wouldn't consider using LMB in a sacrificial role intended solely to benefit another species, a totally unpopular or unheard of idea! wink
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Hey, with a little pond like mine, it's not work. It's just fun and trying different things! 100% natural supplemental food. I will try all the above and let you guys know how it works out.

I know this is an unpopular approach here, but my bass will be used to control population of other species only. They will be harvested 14+ and restock or recruitment will maintain their population. With that said, my original YP will be allowed to grow to a ripe old age.

And no the bass harvested will not meet hot grease. They will be steamed with exotic Thai spices that compliment their delicate flavor!
\\

Oh I don't know about that...I wouldn't consider using LMB in a sacrificial role intended solely to benefit another species, a totally unpopular or unheard of idea! wink


If you are ever in my neighborhood my friend, please stop by for Thai style bass!...Assuming we catch one!



Sounds tasty neighbor!
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