Alright this past May I stocked my five acre pond with 3000 CNBG, 1000 RES and 50lbs of FHM from Overton Fisheries. I have been feeding heavily, keeping a close eye on my water chemistry and I was thinking that everything was great. I was trying to get my forage in good shape and then I was going to stock Camelot Bell LMB in the spring.

I had not made any attempt to catch a fish until last night when I was driving in and saw there was a lot of activity on the top of the water. I thought, hey I'll just check to see how big my CNBG are getting, since I haven't been able to see them very well for the last couple of months due to a good bloom.

So I grabbed a fly rod and on the first two casts I caught two LMB about 12" each, I broke the hook on the only bait I had with me on the second fish and it was almost dark, so I didn't fish anymore, but I assume I could have caught lots more.

How in the world did these get in there?

Is there anything I can do to get them out without starting over?

Why is this thing so skinny, since I have all of the FHM and CNBG in there? You would think they would be really fat since I know that my CNBG had several successful spawns this summer. Unless of course it is over populated with these things.
No I did not look at the fish close when we put them in. It was almost dark when the truck showed up and we just put them in without really checking them out. Besides since it Overton's, I didn't think that I had to worry about it.

I am not saying that is how they got in there, but I can't imagine how else.

It is somewhat strange that for several months, before I got a bloom going, I had about five feet of visibility and went down and looked at all of the bream beds daily and never saw a LMB.

Thanks for your help,
Pat

Do you have any 'good' friends, family members, neighbors or good doers that were eager you to help stock your pond? Those bass could have been from this year's hatch of a couple bass stocked early since the hatchlings had lots of food. They may have also been fingerlings stocked with the other fish. Do you still have the receipt of what was stocked from Overtons? A few real early stocked bass could have eaten a lot of the fish stocked by Overtons? You may not have all that much forage available now if a lot of it was consumed early, thus the slender bodied bass.

I am positive that no one put any fish in to "help me out". The pond is in my front yard, behind a gate no one has my gate code except my 80 plus year old in laws.

Yes I still have the receipt from Overton's.

I agree that it's odd why that LMB is so skinny.

Keep your chin up though. You've got a lot of forage in there, and hopefully you've only got a few LMB...hopefully!!

Wow this like an instant replay going on, the same thing is happening to me


Pat W

try to fish them out, maybe live bait if your lucky you only have a couple them before they spawn.

Next step IMO is to check out how much forage you have available. Are you sure there are lots of FHM and small BG? You should be able to set a few minnow traps baited with bread and catch lots of small fish. We can assume that the receipt from Overtons does not have any bass on it?

If the LMB were human we would simply check their DNA fingerprint and track them backwards to determine 'origin' Could characteristics include genetics link them to their stocking origin?

Here we go again... They could have been bird stocked (not possible), bucket stocked (I watched it happen at my house), but in your case more likely came in with the stocked fish especially since you have more than a few of them.

It seems that since it happens more than 'rarely' that unwanted fish show up with stocked fish that the next thing us customers will want to demand is some sort of proof of the fish being what they were promised to be, similar to certified disease free etc. Seems like there could be some way that suppliers could do random checks of their CNBG, FHM etc and determine (through an independent or 3rd party verification system, or even someday maybe gene tests like they do for asian carp) the percentage of fish that are in the sample and are not supposed to be in the sample of fish netted out that day.

Unwanted LMB can be as bad/hard to control as unwanted asian carp in some ways

Since a few unwanted 'extras' can be a nightmare and very expensive to fix, isn't the burden of proof squarely resting on the supplier and not the customer, after the fact, when the supplier can always say that a stray pelican mistakenly burped when flying over and 12 LMB fell into your pond and you couldn't say for sure if that happened or did not happen?

I guess if i was in the fish raising/hauling/stocking business, this would be an important way to separate my business from others and assuring quality and PURITY of the bags of fish and standing behind it would easily make up for the extra efforts of daily quality control checks of my fish supplies.

Well I am sure that the receipt does not have bass on it and I am sure that I had at least lots of CNBG a few months ago at my feeder. Though I am sure that I had lots of small ones and I am not sure how many FHM I have left. I do remember thinking back while it was still hot that I wasn't seeing them like I had been.

I think that I will put out a minnow trap tomorrow.

Thanks

For my part, I really don't see how a fish supplier can give valid guarantees or assurances when you're talking about stocking numbers into the 1,000's.

Fish, ponds, and all that stuff have so many variables, and nothing is absolute.

What do you mean it is hard to know for sure when it comes to stocking sunil?, we already know by the DNA tests that thare are NO ASIAN CARP in the Great Lakes!!

But it is a good point that if people continue to have unwanted fish show up, at some point the buck stops at the supplier to do something to reassure that customer that got the unwanted fish (and future customers)... or the supplier will have to find some way to remove the unwanted fish from the customers pond

I would fish some more and see if another bass or two comes up. If you are lucky, it is a stray and the problem is already solved.

Here is to hoping! *crosses fingers*

How in the world can you have 12 inch SKINNY LMB in a five acre pond stocked in May with 3000 CNBG, 1000 RES and 50 lbs of FHM?
I just don’t get it!

Skinny LMB with that much forage tells me those fish were not original stockers.

I normally don’t give advice on the forum, but it’s 72 degree weather here today - grab a pole and survey your pond and find out what is going on - cane pole with some trapped FHM or fly rod with Stubby Steves or pellet flies will give some quick answers.

Before I would jump to any conclusions I would sample numbers of species present and overall condition of fish. Fish four quadrants of your pond and let us know what you find?
Good luck!
George

I'm with George. If there were that many fish stocked in the pond, there's no way the LMB would be that skinny if they were stocked with the other fish. Too many fish of the correct size for them to eat and they'd be looking like footballs.

My bet is bucket stocking. Even behind a locked gate. Unless you are at your pond 24/7 or have cameras viewing it, kids or helpful relatives will dump fish in it. I'd do some questioning of anybody that has access to your pond, and take a look at whomever lives in any houses within 1/2 mile (or more) of the pond. The less times that a pond owner is at their pond, the chances of bucket stocking gets higher.

A client, who has ponds 3/8 mile from any house, and the only kid there is about 7 years old had two 13" LMB put in one of the ponds that didn't have LMB in it. They were first seen chasing small fish near shore. They were skinny like that one, and I KNOW that they weren't in the pond before, as there were only forage fish in there the previous year.

I agree, the sheer numbers involved would make it difficult. It's one thing to hand sort a few in a bag, but dumping mass quantities out of a tank directly into a pond/lake is another issue entirely.

The HSB I picked up a few weeks ago came with hitchhikers, but the hatchery mentioned that they probably would. Said they would be FHM.

And they were right. I examined each and every one, not because I didn't trust them, but because I can see how easy it would be to end up with something unintended.

No one has asked about contamination from another BOW via high water. Any chance there?

My thoughts.

I just spoke with One More Cast, and I have to say that it is quite regrettable when things don't proceed as planned. We all have had plans that were foiled or just didn't work out as designed, predicted, or hoped for. I understand the frustration, and I share the regret.

It is statistically very unlikely (but not impossible) that those bass came with the load of baitfish. Our fishery biologists, including myself, are involved in handling these fish and loading all of the trucks, and the entire team is well-aware of the importance of quality control in this business.

It is more likely that these were introduced recently, as George makes a very good argument and provides great advise. We agree that the plan for now should be to sample the pond very thoroughly and report the findings.

My suggestion may be to electrofish during the early spring bass pre-spawning season to harvest as many existing largemouth bass as possible, then follow that with the introduction of adult high quality florida bass that are fin-clipped. The nuisance bass can continue to be harvested rod/reel and easily identified by lack of clipped fin.

I would like to thank One More Cast for not casting irrational blame on his fish supplier, and I hope that we can manage around this unfortunate circumstance.

I honestly have no idea how these fish got in there. I do have to say that I would believe that bucket stocking is the least likely though.

This pond is in my front yard behind a gate. My kids are home schooled, so my wife and kids are at home all day everyday and I have three large dogs outside. Anyone that would consider "helping out" with my stocking knows what I am trying to accomplish and would have to have someone at the house open the gate to let them in. I just don't think that happened.

With that said, I believe that Overton's is a first class fishery and that the odds of these fish coming from them is unlikely.

No chance of that either.

First, let me say I have only been a member for a couple of months. In that time , I have read lots of threads and can say I have not read anything but fantastic things about Overtons and they would be my hatchery of choice if I lived near enough!

For argument sake, lets say the LMB did get mixed in when stocking the other fish. The LMB are 12 inches now. How long would they have been last May when the pond was stocked? Small enough to possibly go unnoticed or would they have been really noticeable?

One more cast


Did you stock May 2013 or 2014?

As skinny as the pix of bass is it appears that it is a bucket job or depending when you stocked fish and what size CNBG u put in were. If you are still seeing FHMs then to me it looks like someone "helped you out" with your stocking like they did me.

Pat W

One More Cast

Have you walked the watershed area? Just wondering if there is any water of any type in your watershed that could have overflowed into the pond. I looked at the map but it is difficult to determine the elevation layout.

We were just talking here in the office, reflecting upon the time that we witnessed an osprey haul a largemouth bass off and drop it in another pond on the farm…

This type of unintended introduction of fish is very common. In fact, we see it all the time…

Mother nature will find a way to move life around.

Todd it's funny how these fish grow feets and get around! I'm gonna get with you real soon for more goodies

Pat W

Most likely a recent introduction. It seems that had it grown from a fingerling to a twelve incher in one year, it certainly wouldn't be skinny.

.

One osprey, one LMB?

He's already caught two LMB, where does the bird theory stand if he catches more? And, what if those fish managed to spawn?

Those fish got there somehow. If not high water, bucket stocking, or hitchiking, then how? I'm curious if there are any more caught.

Ok. Since everybody is throwing out ideas...The bass are skinny. Does that mean they were stocked recently? Does not sound like they ran out of forage if they have been in there a while. I read an old thread a few days ago on skinny bass. That one talked about a parasite that was only affecting the bass and not the forage fish. Maybe you LMB are wild bass that birds, people, Fedex, UPS or other stocked. Maybe check one of those skinny bass, if you catch anymore, to see stomach/intestine content to be safe? Would hate to see you infect those Camelots! Just saying, if you don't know where they came from, it might be worth a little effort to make sure they are at least healthy before exposing expensive fish.

.

I know JKB, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I simply have a hard time wrapping my mind around the bird stocking thing. In Todd's case, it sounds like the osprey dropped the fish into a nearby pond? Well, if OMC has a nearby BOW, then perhaps...if the osprey didn't injure/kill the fish, and IF if happened at least one more time.

BUT....if there's a nearby BOW, then how can one be sure that a high water event didn't bring the fish in, or it arrived in a bucket/stringer?

If there is no nearby water, then how far are we willing to allow an osprey to carry a live, 12" LMB? How much credit and determination are we allowing this bird? An accidental drop? Okay, but wouldn't the fish most likely be injured?

If it were my pond, I would want to do my best to determine how those fish got in there, in order to try and prevent it happening again. We have four theories presented, high water event, bucket stocking, hitchhiking, and bird stocking. In my opinion, bird stocking is the least plausible, although I'm certainly not an authority.

The other three possibilities have been dismissed by OMC. So either there's another scenario that all of us have overlooked, or one of the previously mentioned four is actually correct.
As much as I would like to believe in bird stocking, my money is still on one of the other three.

Narrow it down a little more... I agree with what others have said, I think the fish are too skinny to have been there long if in fact there is that much forage present. Leaving bucket or high water as the primary suspects? Does it sound logical, or have I overlooked something?

Sprkplug,

To summarize, the known facts:

1) Both fish were the same size.
2) Both fish were skinny.
3) New feeding activity on surface just noticed.
4) Pond has good forage

Has there been a recent high water event in that area?

Which of your scenarios fit all the facts?

Bill, do the implications point to the bass being recent arrivals? Seemingly so, so the question is has there been a recent high water event?

If yes, then my vote is for high water or bucket.

If no, then I'm going with bucket.

Thoughts?

Sprkplug,

With the information available, I see no other conclusion than yours.

Another good question would be is there a BOW in the near vicinity that is over populated with LMB?

Food for thought....

How far is the pond from that gate and how far can you throw a fish?

I think the most likely possibility is being narrowed down. Members make a very good case that these bass were recently stocked due to their skinny body condition. If they had been in there for months (Overton stocking) they would be noticeably plump; definitely fatter than those skinny ones pictured. So most of my money is on they were not stocked by Overton. From the picture, it looks like these bass came from a typical overcrowed bass pond. "Hey I know of a nearby pond that has lots of bass, lets go catch a few and put them in OMC's new pond down the road. It is full of bait fish." I don't think these bass have been in the new pond very long since they are still skinny. And not just one skinny bass but at least two, indicating to me it is not skinny due to a health issue. If it were my bass I would collect scale or otolith samples and have them analyzed (aged) for age of the bass. They might be 2-3 yrs old.

I put the pond overflow option way down on the list next to bird stocking., especially since the pond is in OMC's front yard, and he would have easily seen a flooding event. If these bass were dropped into the new pond by a bird there would be obvious talon or beak marks on the bass; the two bass look clean to me.

If you set a bread/fish/dog food baited minnow trap (1/4"mesh) in the pond, you should be able to catch around 50-100 FHM in an overnight trap set or a morning to evening set (8-12hrs).

I would quiz all my local relatives that own fish poles. OMC maybe you have "friends" that you do not know about?

If the pond is not far from the gate or nearest property line, it might prove enlightening walking around the ground in those areas to see if you have any dead LMB.

It also seems odd to me that if there were only two 12" LMB in a 5 ac pond you quickly caught both of them when the pond is "full" of baitfish.

Key point here. Can we see the full picture long distance?

I'm in agreement with Bill Cody, in that establishing what is in the pond right now would be a priority for me.

Also, in a 5 acre pond would you notice only 2 fish feeding on the surface as unusual activity?

OMC seems adamant that no one can access his property thru his gate without his knowledge. That leaves jumping the fence or throwing the fish. With 3 big dogs on guard....I am still with throwing the fish unless he comes back that it is too far.

If the dogs know the relatives the dogs are not a threat, especially if you have some biscuits.

Point taken!

I just realized a fact was left off the list. Not as many FHM observed lately. If this is an unsolicited bucket stock, it may not be a one time event. There may have been previous stockings.

I would do some serious fishing to see.

As skinny as those bass were they haven't been in there very long or they would have filled out . OMC I think I would keep fishing and see what pops up. Keep an eye on your forage population to see if you need to take more drastic steps this spring before the bass spawn .




Pat W

JKB , I mentioned the osprey incident in order to provide a simple example of an unintended fish introduction, not to suggest this is what happened in this particular case.

Also since we are all human and intrinsically part of nature, I count actions by humans as natures forces as well...

In 5 acres, to catch those bass with ease, there's a large number of them.

Overton has a good reputation. I highly doubt it was stock contamination. I strongly believe these bass escaped another BOW during a high water event.

CJ, I take the opposite stand. If the LMB were actively feeding, and were noticed feeding, sight fishing or tossing lures near them could provide an easy way to catch them.

There was only 2 in a clients pond - it was rotenoned after it was drained almost completely.

.

If humans are part of nature, then I guess nothing is excluded from nature and nature has no meaning.

na·ture
ˈnāCHər/Submit
noun
1.
the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

OMC, my heart goes out to you but you can’t put the genie back in the bottle, no matter who let it out. It’s a given IMO - these skinny bass were not a part of the original May stocking, and were recently stocked.
I would move forward surveying LMB population by hook and line and spring electroshock survey as Todd Overton recommended.

Temps in your area are to be in the mid- 60’s today and I would have my tackle ready awaiting first light to find out how many bass I have in my pond.

You mentioned your plan was to stock Camelot Florida LMB in the spring with existing ample forage, but obviously not possible due to predator invasion.

I stocked 8 adult CB into our 2 acre pond with existing Florida LMB a couple of years ago and immediately began a vigorous culling program, removing every LMB that was not fin clipped. Don’t know how many survived having caught and released several CB, but removed some 70+ LMB the past year and culling program moves forward.

FireIsHot is also removing Florida LMB by hook and line and electroshocked last spring and understand he will repeat the program this year. He is currently growing out CB LMB in a brood pond and is seining today so likely not able to respond to this post.

Brood ponds are a valuable asset for pond management to grow out forage and predators to enhance production and to solve problems such as this. Ours have served us well for some 10 years.

Good luck, be positive, depend on Overton for advice and move on for a successful fishery.
George Glazener

OMC, I've dealt with this same scenario for 2 years now. Infestation of both GSF, and small LMB, in my brood pond. I visually inspect and confirm all stocked fish, and I still have trespassers after the correct stocking of fish. After the initial shock, I realized it's not a game changer, and just requires a little management time. Luckily, the management time involves fishing and time on the water, and that was probably the initial goal to begin with.

I do not think those LMB came from a stocking, because the body condition just doesn't back that up. If they were 2-3" like most stocked CNBG, then those LMB grew 9" in 6-7 months. Their body shape almost guarantees that didn't happen. If they were much larger than the stocked CNBG, then it would have been very obvious, and Overton's would have resorted prior to delivery. I have absolutely no doubt about that fact.

One question that hasn't been asked, is how was the pond initially filled? And, was there any major rain event that caused a quick water level rise at any point? I've had water go over the spillway, and observed fry moving in as little as 1-2" of water. CNBG and LMB of any size, will follow a current.

This certainly isn't a game changer. You have approximately 4 months before any potential LMB nesting/spawning will occur, so you have plenty of time to correct this issue. Several of the guys on the forum rob nests to eliminate LMB spawns. IIRC, esshup does this, so maybe he can help with the particulars.

The main thing to remember is that ponds are dynamic and trespassers, water problems, aquatic vegetation, etc. are just the nature of the beast. You can get through this just fine.

Best of luck with all of this. Gotta go, the sun's up and it's almost seine time, Al

Regardless of whether the LMB appeared to be feeding or not, 2 LMB in 2 casts and OMC stopped because he broke a hook??? If it was my pond, I'd be working the banks to see if I could catch anymore. I hope it was just 2 that were dumped, but I'm not that optimistic. I tend to follow CJBS' thinking...maybe not a large number, just more than 2. I've never made a cast into my pond since stocking. This unfortunate occurrence has me thinking maybe I should try.

As far as using the gate, what type of fence is in place? If I were trying to sneak in, using the gate would be my very last option. I would be looking for a remote corner of the pond, out of sight of the house if possible.

At this point, energy is probably best spent on assessing what you've got and managing the situation.

Even a barb wire fence hasn't kept me out of places. Either under or over. Woven wire fence with a strand of barb wire on top? Those are easy to get over too.

Reducing LMB via nests:

I just keep an eye on the pond and when I see LMB starting to make nests, I fish them out. Males will guard the nests, and a live nightcrawler fished on 8-10 pound test line, no weight works VERY well. Use a #4 hook, slip it thru the crawler under the collar, and cast past the nest. Bring the crawler back so it drops into the nest and let it squirm around. The LMB can't resist picking it up, and once they taste it they don't spit it back out. Set the hook and remove the LMB. That method isn't the best for C&R as they ususlly are hooked deep, but it's perfect for catch and keep. Polarized glasses are a must for fishing that way.

Possibly, but I'm not sure I would begin tearing up the bathroom floor until I was sure I had the leak repaired. Would hate to have to do it all over again needlessly.

I think potential causes have been presented.
1) In the pond all along.
2) Came in with the stockers.
3) Came in with flood water.
4) Dumped in by trespassers.
5) Dropped from heaven by birds.

Only the trespasser possibility is really one that would make me take action at this point (and it seems most likely based on the posts so far).

If the pond owner does not think bucket-stocking is a reasonable explanation, what other preventative action do you suggest?

.

If it were me, I would continue to explore the possibilities while I fished the pond for an evaluation of its current inhabitants. We all seem to be leaning towards bucket stocking as the culprit, which to me means that it could happen again, if nothing is done.



"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Arthur Conan Doyle

I have just stocked a 3.5 acre pond using Overtons. I used Overtons because of their reputation and because of the CB LMB fry that will become available this coming spring (hopefully). After reading all that has been posted, I think I is possible these bass may be native to the Ark-La-Tex area. Native bass here can grow to at least 7 lbs if food is available. This may not be the desired fish wts for the future, but I don't think it is a disaster. If I understand it, the CB LMB can achieve wts of 15lbs + or - in the best situation. And if you breed the CB LMB with native LMB I would think you might still be able to produce a 10#+ LMB fishery using shocking and fishing by removing the males and numbers per acre. And may produce a more aggressive bite. It may not be a perfect world, but a pond full of 10+lmb is not a bad place either. I would want to do a shock asap if I had the money to do it. The more information I have makes me a better manager.

From OMC:

I am sure that I had at least lots of CNBG a few months ago at my feeder. Though I am sure that I had lots of small ones and I am not sure how many FHM I have left. I do remember thinking back while it was still hot that I wasn't seeing them like I had been.Thanks [/quote]

This is the observation that makes me wonder whether previous unwanted stockings have also occurred. If additional fishing shows they have, then fixing that "leak" would be a pretty high priority with me.

I think that's why it's so important to try and establish what's in the pond now, as well as pinning down how the undesirables arrived.

IF they were bucket stocked, what's to say that the next occurrence might not contain GSF, or BH, or WC? Perhaps they're already present?

Since Camelot Bell bass from Overton's has been mentioned in this thread, I added the acronym to the Abbreviation List in the Archives. CBFB = Camelot Bell Florida Bass.

The presence of some bass in this new pond may require stocking extra forage and/or modifying the forage plan in the spring after a better evaluation of the current fishery has been made. Todd Overton will be have some good advice about this based on OMC's goals of producing large bass.

IMO esshup has good advice and a good efficient method for removing male LMB from the spawning areas. Follow the method closely. I have two additions, 1. if the water is clear (3-6ft) reduce the line diameter to 6 lb test; 2. keep a low profile while angling. A low profile such as sitting down makes it harder for fish to see you and then they will come closer to shore and be more likely to eat the bait. When fishing from shore, catch rates improve significantly using a low profile such as sitting on the ground.

.

From the looks of this mans photo.........he has a lot more bass in his pond than just the two he caught.

If this is the case and it probably is..........you can bet they have taken a toll on his forage base.

For those two bass to be that skinny, means they have been competing for food. There are probably 200-500 bass that size in this mans pond. If not more.

The fatheads have probably disappeared.

I agree that it looks like those two bass have been competing for food. Question is, where at? If they are very recent arrivals into his pond, the source of their poor condition probably lies elsewhere, in some other BOW.

Bingo!

Ditto. Those aren't bass from a new pond that should have abundant forage. Someone took it upon themself to help your pond along. Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of this.

.

Bass at this age (rather size) roam around in schools. If you were dropped in a strange place with a buddy, wouldn't you stick together?

.

I received the follow-up call from One More Cast, and it was reported that they caught around 100 bass from the pond. Can we theorize existing population based on this?? The fish were all within a few inches of each other. In my mind this effectively removes the possibility that the bass came mixed in with the baitfish load. We could feasibly miss one or two, but not this many, not a chance…

Its still a mystery. The pond started filling in Nov 2013, and it is my theory that some mature bass made it into the pond in time for the 2014 spring spawning season. If even a single pair of mature bass did spawn in spring, there could have been 1000s of fingerlings present when we introduced the baitfish in May. This would explain the absence of fathead minnows and small YOY bluegill, as well as the bass population, which appears to have hit a ceiling in a few months…

I am not sure if we will ever determine the source of this unintended introduction, but the bucket stocking theory holds most water right now…

Plan going forward may involve spring electro-shocking, we are discussing the options right now. Thanks for input everybody.

Wow!!

I had no idea bass could grow that big in less than a year!

Thanks for the update!!

Todd:

If that many are in there, I think you are right, that one pair pulled off a spawn. I agree with you, break out the electricity.

Bill, if there is enough food, fingerlings stocked in the Spring can be over 2# by the winter. I'd bet those LMB in the picture are at the most 1#.

Still learning here...So can you get them all with electro-shocking? You only need to miss two to have the same problem all over again. Right??

Wow, Todd...that's truly incredible!

UPDATE:

Todd has already filled you in, but here is a little more info.

I put two baited minnow traps out and in 36 hours I caught two 1" long CNBG and that is it. So I have no FHM and no small CNBG or RESF to speak of.

This is very easy to explain, because in four hours Saturday I caught, on artificial lures, over 80 LMB. This is in addition to the 20 or so I caught in 15 minutes Friday night. Everyone of these fish were within two inches of the same size. And when I quit fishing I was still catching them almost as good as I was when I started.

I have been an avid bass fisherman my whole life and an avid tournament fisherman for many years and I have never seen as thick of a bass population in a body of water.

Just to answer a few questions:

It is too far to throw fish from my fence to my pond.

The fish did not get into the pond via a high water situation. We have not had any high water or overflow since the pond was built.

Also these are Florida bass and not native.

When my fish were delivered from Overton's, I helped Walt get them from the trailer to my pond and I was the one that actually poured the fish out of a bucket into my pond. I am not saying that there is no way that a few bass could have made it in, but I don't think that there is any way that I poured hundreds of bass in without knowing it and that what would have had to happen to cause this problem.

The only other answer is that somehow at least a few adult fish got in there before the stocking of my baitfish and then had a very successful spawn.

My pond is visible from a fairly busy road which is a common route to and from Caddo Lake. Also my fence is not so secure that someone could not get in if they wanted to. My best guess right now is that either someone I know or a well intending neighbor coming home from a day of fishing decided to deposit their days catch in "that new pond to help out with my stocking"

I have been in contact with both Todd and Walt Overton and they have been more than helpful.

Thanks for all of the help guys,
Pat

Boy if I didn't know better I would think it was my pond you guys were talking about. By this spring the juvies that were spawned will be about 10"+ . They do grow fast and eat a lot . Sorry this happened to you, I feel your pain.


Pat W

Pat W.

What is your plan? Live with it or fix it?

Bill

Alright, nobody hate me for what I'm about to ask....I'm simply not familiar with how large fish deliveries are made. I absolutely understand how slim the odds are of that many LMB making it past the watchful eyes of Overton's crew, and ending up in OMC's order.

But just to cover all the bases, and try to eliminate all the possibilities, were there any LMB on the truck that made this delivery? For someone else's order maybe?

Not implying or suggesting anything went amiss at all, just wondering out loud.

Nobody will hate you man! Everybody has theories of possible scenarios.

If the Mommas and the Pappas show up during electro-shocking, then the current scenario fits. If they don't....back to square one?

OMC

I think you nailed it with "well intentioned "neighbors, If they put in two large bass say 3-4lbs and they spawned then that is what you are catching now. The ones that were dumped into my pond spawned and I saw this spring bunches of 1" bass terrorizing the minnow population along the shoreline. They are now 10" and just now have eaten all the YOY everything. Good luck. Life is like that. You will win. Now that you know what you are up against.


Pat W

I think George Bush is at fault here.

.

JKB

BIGGER and wif a reallllllly big mouth and appetite!


Pat W

Tony:

I think that even if a few LMB did happen to slip off the truck, they should have been fingerling size, and not adults. Overtons stocked the pond in May of this year with fingerling fish.

To me that equals adults that spawned early this year, and the YOY grew to the size that they are now. For fingerlings stocked in May to get large enough to spawn, and have their YOY get to the size that are being caught now is not possible.

.

To eat that many forage fish in the 7 months since stocking and be in their present body condition is what I am having trouble with. Those fish, IMO, haven't eaten in quite a few months.

Thus, I'm having trouble seeing a couple of bass pulling off a spawn that results in the sizes and numbers I'm seeing. 99% of the offspring would have been eaten immediately. The fish being within 2 inches of each other indicates to me bucket stocking soon after initial forage stocking. However, shocking is only sampling and there may be other sizes.

I agree on the pure Floridas not being a fish truck problem. Even the most casual observer would recognize the difference in bass and FHM. This was, IMO, intentional by some well meaning friend/neighbor. The same thing happened to me on a lesser scale and I know who did it and where the fish came from. I found 12 inch bass within 3 months of stocking fingerling bass. Luckily I had a strong forage base established and only a small # of bass were added.

Every scenario mentioned can be answered with a "Yeah but". Unless somebody comes up and admits it, you'll never know the real answer.

I would rotenone and start over. I see no way that adding new forage will be a viable decision with that many starving bass to eat them.

In the scenario I mentioned, I never envisioned the LMB coming off the truck as fingerlings. OMC stocked 50 lbs of FHM....say, 1.5" long? A LMB of the same size would, to someone in a hurry, or after dark, appear at least somewhat similar.

Florida bass, all the same approx. size? A spawn occurring in the pond from Fla. strain fish would account for that most certainly, but so would a batch of FHM sized LMB that were inadvertently released. They would all be the same approx. size, just about the size that are present matter-of-fact.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is what happened, only throwing another possibility out there. I don't even know if Overton's keeps LMB that size, or at that time of year.

OMC I think we may be close neighbors. Maybe we can meet up sometime. My thoughts are it would be possible that a neighbor might just drop some Caddo lake LMB into your new pond. I have a place on Caddo and have kept up with the lake stocking over the past 4 yrs. The State of Texas has stocked around 3,000,000 Florida fingerlings in the lake in this time frame and Florida's have been in the lake for many yrs now. So a pure Florida strain bass could come from the lake. But I can also see a mistake a stocking could also occur. We all make mistakes, and I could see where LMB fingerlings might be put on a truck by mistake. If you take someone like me, who stocked 4,000+ BG and 1,000+ RES along with FHM and Thredfin shad. Who looks at all those? Not me. No way I'm going to look at each and every fingerling. And when Overtons brought my forage out, some were in different containers and the fatheads and shiners came from an enclosed compartment on the truck and deposited directly into the pond. I will say that Walt, with Overtons knows his job. But I am also thinking that lmb fingerlings added to forage fish would have a lot to eat for until forage was mostly gone and that might put those bass fingerlings around the size of the lmb in the picture. People make mistakes !! It happens by the best of us.

I also want to say I have full confidence in Todd and Walt. And I am set up and looking forward to spring deliveries from them. I am trying to work in a visit to their facilities asap.

There is no way that hundreds of Florida LMB fingerlings could
be mistaken for FHM - unless you have never seen one before...

This post got me thinking about a really dumb "what if" scenario. Not knowing the area and location of this water, could some newbie fish delivery guy have dumped some Caddo lake bass into this pond thinking that it was a tributary of Caddo lake? Dumber things have happened?!

Let's look at the math.

50lbs of FHM, say 250 minnows to the pound, for a total of approx 12,500 minnows, in a single compartment on the truck. Somehow, accidentally, 300 Florida strain LMB minnows the same size as the fatheads get mixed in with them, in that same tank.

So for every 41 FHM swimming around in that mass of fish, there is 1 Florida LMB minnow.

Certainly, comparing the fish one at a time would point out some obvious differences. But.....

Since we're exploring all the possibilities, lets' say the fish arrive at dusk, or even after dark, when visibility is not that great. TGW1 says that his FHM were all in the same tank, and were deposited directly into the pond. He didn't hand sort hundreds or thousands of FHM...in truth, I probably wouldn't either.

So, in this hypothetical scenario we have 300 LMB, the same size as the thousands of FHM, loose in a pond with no predators. I would think that the survival rate of the bass would be very high under these circumstances. They grow, and the other fish in the pond become forage for them. They eat and continue to grow fairly rapidly until the forage supply is exhausted, whereupon their growth suffers and they get skinny. All the same size....just skinny.

Once again, I'm not suggesting this is what happened. And while I don't have George's years of experience under my belt, I have learned to never say never, and always keep an open mind. When I'm convinced that something is impossible, is usually when I'm proven wrong.

George those are 2 good comparisons, but like TGW said above if your stocking 50bls of FH's you not looking at them. At least not all of them. Lets just say there are 200 FH's in one pound. That's 10,000 FHM's. Well 1 percent of all them FHM's is 100. So lets say 100 of them were LMB somehow. If your dumping in FHM's by the 1000 into your pond at dark thirty, you could very well miss 100. Not saying that's what happened. Just saying you could guess all day long. If you shock the place and you don't find any bigger LMB then what you have. Then you got to believe they all got in there at or around the same time frame somehow???? Just saying.

RC

LOL Hey Spark great minds think alike!! Funny

Sorry guys,I can't handle all the speculation - how many of you have actually seen fingerling pure Florida LMB, or held a bucket of them in your hands?
I have near 90 year old eyes, double vision and cataraacs and I could have told the difference at 29 paces..yeah, I have stocked hundreds of them and you can go to the bank on what Todd Overton tells you.

Please don't let this discussion lead to inference that could damage reputations.

George Glazener

George, challenge and speculation has been the foundation of a great many new discoveries, as well as provided different interpretations of previously accepted norms. As was said earlier, we may never know the reason those fish are in there, unless someone steps up and announces "I did it". Until that day however, speculation is all we have.

And while I intend no harmful inference to Overton's, or anyone else for that matter, I still believe the possibility exists...highly unlikely and improbable, but certainly not impossible.

Keeping it quiet for fear of upsetting someone is fine, but if it were me, I would want to know how those fish got there, and would leave no stone unturned in my efforts to find out....if I didn't, who's to say that the next bucket might contain Crappie, or bullheads, or those funny sunfish with the large gape?

It's true that I tend to get stuck on a subject... I struggle with that. But leaving things unknown, in this case anyway, just carries too much risk in my opinion. Good ole' boy syndrome or not, I still think every option should be examined, BEFORE being dismissed. I don't think Overton's is at fault, and I'm certainly not saying otherwise here on the forum.

All possibilities. That's what I'm getting at.

Stay Tuned For Update from OMC!

Yeah I agree with Spark. No fingers are being pointed were just saying it is possible out of 12,000 FHM's something could have happened? Then again maybe it did not. It is all speculation at this point for sure... Not in any way trying to downgrade anyone. stuff happens....

Like Spark though if it was my 5 acre pond that I was trying to make into the best pond it could be and then this happened to me I would want to try and figure out what the heck happened if anything to help the next guy.

And I love me some George but George you cant tell me if your dumping in buckets of FHM's at a time you could make out 100 percent of what they are. There is just no way specially if it's close to dark.

If that is what happened does that make Overton bad NO not at all, that makes them human.... You know what they say. "SH** happens sometimes.. Everyone makes mistakes if indeed it was a mistake??? Which we do not know.

RC

P.S. I can guarantee you this. If it can be proven that it was Overton. I am SURE they will admit and help the man take care of it! No doubt in my mind that's what makes a company a good company.

I think that most agree it was probably a high water event, or more likely a bucket that provided those unwanted fish. Me included, as I stated earlier in the thread. But having an open mind to the possibilities, ALL possibilities, is in keeping with being thorough.

OK, as mentioned earlier – the genie is out of the bottle – majority opinion is bucket stocking.
It will be interesting to see the the plan that OMC pursues in order to correct the problem.
G/

Well I don't know how the fish in the first picture got in there, but this does explain some things. This fish is 18" long and about three pounds.
The fish in the first picture is next to a size 13 boot and the fish in the second picture is next to a size 9.

Oh well there you go then That 3 pounder has been in there for a while!! I bet the bank you got some more in there!! So yeah someone or something ducks/ cranes? helped you stock your pond at some point!

RC

OMC

I agree with bucket stocking , the 3lber spawned and you added a lot of forage at the right time for max growth for the new fingerlings. Now you are seeing them running out ou forage for the number that were in the pond, that's why they appear to be thinning now.. Food requirment as they grow overwhelmed your spawn of CNBG or eating a lot of your brood stock depending on what size you put in this spring.
That's my thinking at this point from what I am reading.

Pat W

And there it is! The 'why' is explained, the 'how' most likely known, and the 'who' remains unanswered.

OMC,
That 3lb'ers looking pretty healthy. I know its a least concern to you right now but, any idea what the WR was on that LMB?

I don't, but it is was a very healthy, thick fish.

Any body besides me notice he said "WAS" very healthy?

OMC,

So did you fillet all those bass?

No I didn't fillet those bass, but I am certainly not above it.
All of these bass so far have gone into a buddies pond.

Todd, eagerly awaiting.

I'll bet there are a couple bigger than that one, in there also.

RC, the last time I stocked 50# of FHM in a clients SMB/RES/YP/GSH pond you better believe I looked at every one!!

The more fish you see, the faster you can sort. The odd looking fish just stands out like a sore thumb. Like the tiny tail of a stickleback compared to the tail of a FHM. You notice something amiss in the net and take a much closer look.

That's why dumping them into a container from the truck, then into the pond is a good idea if you are sorting. If you "whups", just dump the container back into the tank and re-sort.

Scott, why did you check all those FHM?

Looks to me someone stocked your lake from their stringer of fish taken out of Caddo. I would look for someone who had a good day fishing on the lake and decided he did not want to clean them for eating, so your pond was there for an easier way out. Or he had fished your lake and thought he would help you out. So now I am hoping to see what solution you and the Overton's come up with. How do you get from where you are, to where you want to be? The bass are Florida strain from what OMC said and Florida is what the TWPD stocked in Caddo. I wonder if the Caddo bass came from the Texas lunker program ? Taken from the Trophy fish taken out of Texas lunker program. I think those fish are Hybrids.

The one thing that we all keep overlooking here is. OMC said they home school their kids, their pond is right in the back yard and it's locked up. I mean sorry but I would not be that determined to get my fish in a guys pond and maybe get shot at in the process if it was all locked up tight?? What did they do come in the middle of the night and dump them in..... That part to me makes no since. OMC do you have ducks? Geese? Maybe they brought them in a couple of years ago???

Sorry guys, I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around how hard it would / dangerous it would be for someone to attempt this?? But maybe it's possible. The one thing I did not see I guess is how far the fence was from the pond? Maybe someone could have thrown them in?? If the fence is close enough.

RC

Sooo what is the plan now? 5 acre pond full of bass. You will never catch them all. And if you have 18 inch bass your gonna need 6 to 8 inch BG to help spawn... Ugghh what a mess. Let us know what you do OMC when you can.

RC

I believe OMC said that while his property was gated, his pond was not that secure. Also, we all may need to go to the post office, buy groceries, go to church on Sunday, go shopping for a day, take the kids on a field trip somewhere......

I work from home six days a week during the busy season. But there are still times when no one is here.

When ONC caught that nice fat 3 lb one that pretty much told the story that someone dumped it and a mate or two in the pond. That's why it was fat from eating his BG that he had first stocked. The smaller ones were fat until the prey was eaten up. The bluegills are also growing to a point where only the parent bass can eat them(it was fat). The young basslings now are 9" or so and are running out of grub to sustain them

That's my take on the story

Pat W

So am I. It's actually in my front yard and I have three big dogs.

The fence is 100 plus feet from the pond. Terry Bradshaw is from Shreveport, maybe it was him. lol

I am not sure what the plan is now.
I think that I am going to see if I can get some fish DNA tested to see what I have and then make a decision.

I believe that I have a pretty good population of larger BG, just no small ones.

Well I have one that nobody here has mentioned.

I have a buddy that has years of experience managing lakes and ponds and has been involved in the management of one of the most successful private lakes in Texas.
Look at his quote below.



For the record I have at least one Kingfisher that spends a great deal of time perched on the top of one of my feeders.

Anyone have a take on this?

No way.

How long from the time the pond had water in it until it was stocked? That bass went 3 pounds....how large would it have been to be physically carried by a kingfisher? I think that bass was already good sized when it arrived.

Accidental drops of a small, impaled fish that probably didn't survive....I can see that.

Pond started filling up in November and it was stocked late May.

Then the question is: can a small fish that can be carried by a Kingfisher grow enough from November to May (without any available food) to be able to spawn?

I do believe that a kingfisher could transport a small fish. I have seen them carry one away many times from my pond. Not that they knowingly stock a pond, but more like if one grabbed it from a pond, then flew to a tree over another pond to eat it and dropped it (Dang gone it! Now I have to go get another one...)

I doubt that the fish would survive the possible journey and then the drop to the water.

I can offer this. Growing up my neighbor had a small pond about 2 feet deep. It was not within 3 miles of any other BOW. Every spring it would fill with water. By August it would be bone dry. When we walked around on that dry pond bed, we almost always found a few (less than five) dried up fish 1 to 2 inches long. How did they get there?

Bucket Stocking.

I would consider that but, the pond was way off the road in their woods and every dang year? My neighbor's dad subscribed to the egg on the bird's feet theory.

Perhaps, but how long can a small fish survive out of the water? One minute? I think that is possible.
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How far can a bird fly in a minute?
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Surviving a drop to the water?

My kingfishers sit on branches that are 6 to 10 feet off the water all the time. That's nothing for a fish to fall. Heck, it wasn't that long ago someone posted an old advertisement of stocking remote lakes by dropping fish from planes.

I struggle with the bird/egg explanation.

Okay, it was a bird....a fertilized egg got stuck on the foot, and that bird flew 3 miles over to the pond in question. And that egg never dried out and fell off, despite the jostling, airflow, and vibration. And because it never dried out it remained viable, and somehow became detached and fell off the foot into the new pond. And despite the lack of parents needed to fan clean, oxygenated water over the egg in order to keep it from suffocating, it managed to hatch anyway. And it happened multiple times.

Is there any, documented proof of this happening? Ever? I won't stand on it being impossible, but I'm leaning pretty heavily on highly improbable.

Did the kingfisher grasp the fish, or spear it as if intending to eat it?

OMC's pond had water in November, so the fish needed to be spawning size when it arrived, in order to explain the offspring currently being caught. That's a lot to ask of a bird the size of a kingfisher?

I'm with you. The bird thing is not probable. Thinking back now I wonder if the mystery stocker of that pond from my childhood memories wasn't a broken field drain tile. The farms in that area all have drain tiles and they all lead to the river.....

Someone put them in there and they spawned and here you are! A bass stocked pond at the wrong time.

I don't think kingfishers stab when taking a fish from the pond, and that's why I think they could move fish around. Accidentally or on purpose? I don't know, I can't read their minds. But I think the scenario is possible at times.





I am with you on this. That's why I mentioned it in the above post..

I'm on board with the idea of a kingfisher dropping a small fish once in awhile. If the two bodies of water are close together, I think it's plausible.

Someone needs to try this experiment: fence off a field with ponds at either end, but a land barrier between the two. Stock one pond with fish. Put many waterfowl in the field. Wait a long time. If fish are in the second pond, the theory has merit.

Te he

That's not it.
My property backs up to an exclusive neighborhood that is said to be the highest point in Caddo Parish. There are no ponds in the neighborhood, therefor there are no bodies of water within miles that are higher in elevation than my pond.

Sorry for the confusion OMC. I was talking about that pond when I was growing up that had the mystery fish. The scenario works for there. Can't say that is what happened. I was just wondering.

OK , OMC pond backs up to neighborhood. I will go back to my earlier response. Pond was stocked by fisherman of Caddo Lake. Someone in the neighbor hood went fishing and got in late (maybe after dark) did not want to clean the fish they caught and they did not want to waste their fish so your pond was the place that came to mind to discard their fish.

I fully believe that certain species of bird intentionally 'stock' ponds due to inherent instinct.

In your case, OMC, that one LMB seems too big for the bird theory, IMO.

If someone did bucket stock my pond, it was not someone from that neighborhood. My PROPERTY backs up to the neighborhood, but not my pond. This neighborhood is somewhat exclusive and the fence that separates it from my property is 10' with barbed wire on the top.
From that neighborhood, a person would have to climb that fence, with fish, go through 500+ feet of thick woods, then 200 feet of open field, then walk right by the side of my house where my three large dogs spend most of their time, in order to get to my pond.

If it was bucket stocked, it was done from the road that passes by the front of my house.

OMC, you've heard a lot of our theories as to how those fish came to be in your pond, I'm curious as to what your theory is? You are right there, on site, unlike the rest of us.

How did they get in there, and what is the plan to prevent it happening again?

Well I my "theories" as well, but that is all they are.

My plan right now is to see if I can get these fish DNA tested to see just what I have in there. I think that may give me a getter idea where they came from.

I have been going round and round trying to find a place to test them. Does anyone know of a place?

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/people/index.cfm

You might want to contact either of the Department heads there. I believe SDSU was doing a DNA study on LMB a year or two ago before Dr. Dave WIllis passed away.

It is expensive and you need to be university/gov affiliated. Last I checked there were no purly private labs. TA&M used to provide that service. You can call Bob for an update on that. You can also call Justin (below) to check as he did the DNA for the study mentioned above (Eagle's Nest and other lakes).


Justin A. VanDeHey

Assistant Professor of Fisheries

College of Natural Resources

University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point

800 Reserve Street

Stevens Point, WI 54481

715-346-2090

Not sure how the potential DNA testing will be of a benefit, but who knows??

With the right data a lot is possible. The ability to gather/find the data is very hard ,if it exists.

Well a couple of ways.
First of all if they are a pure strain of Florida bass, it is highly unlikely that they were bucket stocked or brought by a bird.

Also if they are a pure strain of Florida bass, I am not concerned about getting them all out. I will just need to get them under control and try to get my forage jump started.

Is there way OMC could age the fish using otolith, or get a picture for others to date it? Would that help in any way?

This may be a good time to renew my former interest in a wifi nightvision security camera for my pond. If OMC had one he could go back and review footage Sad that we have to consider pond security as part of managing a private pond, but I feel his pain with the size of his BOW and the cost of electroshocking, or starting over.

Quick question guys. I was under the impression, not sure why, that Florida LMB is pretty much the only LMB stocked way down south. Is there another strain commonly stocked?

If the LMB (or some of them) turn out to be pure FL strain, I'm still not sure what that tells you. There are many places that sell pure FL strain bass, or claim to sell pure FL strain bass, so a FL bass can occur anywhere, truly.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying you should not do some DNA testing. I'm just not sure the effort will clear up what happened.

I do see what you are saying about keeping some of the bass if they turn out to be some kind of desirable strain.

Well if they are pure Florida, then I would think that the likelihood that they were bucket stocked would be much slimmer, since, I would think, anything coming from a lake would not be PURE Florida.

But the main thing that it would tell me is that I would not need to be concerned about removing all of the fish via rotenone. I could just work with what I have instead of starting over.

Didn't someone else say that Texas stocked pure FL strains? Perhaps Louisiana does also?

With a 5 acre pond, I would not want to start over, so I see what you are saying.

I thought Texas only used pure Florida Strain LMB for their Share Lunker program? Once a fish is submitted, it is DNA tested before it enters the program?

OMC -

What are you doing to prevent future repeats of whatever has happened to your pond?

Which brings the question - did / do you not have surveillance on your property? If you didn't for the period in question, or you don't have the footage for the period in question, perhaps consider installing equipment pretty quick.

From what you've described, you most likely will want a near real time solution that sends the data to your mobile device as soon as the file is written. In case you happen to be home when the next event occurs and you can head them off at the pass if you will. Before they dump their fish into your pond from their bucket.

You might also consider posting signs indicating your private pond is not for use and research is being conducted so please do not introduce any fish, amphibians, or mammals to your pond. Sometimes signs work.

I am close to you and if I could help with your dilemma I would. Here are some things that come to mind. Flordia's are and have been in our area for at least 15 yr's based on my fishing. And Native Bass are also in our area, based on my fishing. And I am pretty sure a hybrid ( Mixed bloodlines of these bass ) have been (in the majority) of the biggest bass caught in Texas. If you take Lake Fork as an example, of the top 5 big bass caught in the lake, 4 were Hybrids and only 1 was a pure Florida. So does that mean anything? It tells me that, a very large LMB can be of mixed blood. And maybe you could say the Hybrid bites more and is easier to catch.
I hope it all works out for you. Life is good.

Thanks for the offer and the info.
I have a lead on getting these fish DNA tested. If it works out where I can get them tested and these fish turn out to be Florida, then I will just manage what I have. If they are not Florida, I think that I will probably just catch all that I can out and then stock adult pure Florida Bass.

I think that's a pretty good plan. For a pond your size, I'd consider getting a shock boat in there this Spring, before they spawn. No matter what the DNA testing shows.

Since they hammered your forage base already, I don't think angling will remove enough of them to let your forage base rebound quickly. If a lot aren't removed, even stocking more forage will just be stocking food for the bass, and a lot of your newly stocked fish won't survive to spawn.

Even e-shocking won't remove all of them, but if done at the correct time of the year, you should be able to remove the majority of them, allowing you to continue with your goals for the pond.

Angling just removes the LMB that will bite, leaving the hook smart fish in the pond. The e-shock boat doesn't give the LMB that choice. If they are within the electric current field, they are stunned and can be netted out of the pond.

I don't know this whole deal is weird?? 3 pound LMB in 6 to 7 months we know that did not happen.

There is no other ponds around for miles.

Your fence is 100 feet off the road with 3 dogs and barbwire on the back side near your neighbors...

You did not put them in there, and someone is almost always home?

Makes no since to me??? I have a King Fisher he is very active but I have never seen him take any fish out of my pond over 5 or 6 inches. Heck most 2 pound bass are bigger than the King Fisher.

I don't know OMC. I know it's to late now but maybe you should put up a couple of deer cameras around your pond on Video mode see what shows up?? Good Luck buddy. Keep us posted.

RC

I am probably going to get hammered for this and most won't agree, but experienced anglers, with the right weather in the spring and several days CAN catch the vast majority out of a pond.

Two years ago a buddy of mine was draining a two acre pond and in a couple of nice days in April we fished it hard, removing everything we caught and when he drained it there were five adult bass left.

I installed surveillance equipment around our property and our pond. Mostly game made the footage, but there was one couple who came, partied, got naked, did their thing, and then left. And they left behind some trash (including used condom). I printed out some photos, posted down by the pond site where they were, and later footage show they returned weeks later, saw their pics and read my message, looked up and around and waved, got their stuff and left. Haven't returned since.

Obviously your pond is close to your home so ya aren't likely to have lovers enjoying your pond, but you might catch dumping of fish.

I don't really want any down time here if I can help it and I don't mind spending some money, though there is a point where I would be better off just killing everything off and starting over.
With this is mind is there any way to catch up with my forage without taking the vast majority of the bass out?
Can I stock enough smaller bream or a combination of smaller bream and ______ to catch up?

I do think that I have a good population of 6" plus CNMB, just no smaller ones.

Caddo has had Flas stocked many times if that matters. You could seine part and set up blocking nets and grow some forage out or use any number of other options to get LMB out and forage up.

While I agree that good anglers can put a hurt on fish in a smaller pond, but your pond is 2.5 times the size of the 2 ac pond that you and your buddy fished. Plus there's the aspect of taking out the most agressive biting LMB, leaving the smarter/less apt to bite fish to pass on their genes.

If it was my pond and I had the same goals as you do for the pond, I'd opt for the e-shock route.

As for forage fish, it all comes down to two things. Dollars and cents, and the carrying capacity of the pond.

Since this happened, you no longer have any idea of how many LMB are in the pond and what size they are. Yes, you caught roughly 100 cookie cutter LMB so the assumption could be that they are all the same size with the exception of a pair or two of larger fish. But, the bigger question is how many of them are still in the pond?

For a trophy LMB pond, the ratio is 20 to 30 BG/CNBG per LMB. That's for the stocker fish, not the offspring that they will be eating. So, yes, theoretically you can stock enough forage fish if your pocketbook was deep enough to afford stocking adult BG/CNBG AND you knew how many LMB were left in the pond to get the correct ratio. Remember, you want to stock BG/CNBG larger than what the LMB can eat or you are back to square one.

Rough rule of thumb, 10# of fish will put one pound of weight on one LMB.

Another guideline is to remove approximately 30# of LMB per surface acre in a LMB stunted pond per year (more if possible) to get the pond turned around as fast as possible with regards to the predator/forage fish base.

But, in your pond, the 800# gorilla in the pond is the number of LMB that are left in there. You know that there were enough to stunt in one year with the amount of forage fish that were in there.

Lets say you only had one female LMB pull off a spawn. A single female LMB, depending on maturity can lay between 2,000 and 94,000+ eggs. (Moyle
1976) So, how many made it to the size that you are catching?

That's why I'm recommending e-shocking the pond in early spring before the LMB spawn because the ones in the pond now are large enough to spawn too. So not only could you have the original pair spawn, you could possibly have 100's more spawning too.

Thanks for your response.
I understand your thinking and I have not made a definite decision yet.
I was planning to have it shock initially until I talked to some people about it and most said that I would need to wait until the spring and then the best case they thought the most they could shock up would be 70%. I may be wrong, but I think with heavy fishing pressure, some buddies and eventually going to live bait, I can do considerably better than 70%.

We have not weighed every fish, but we feel confident that we have now removed 150 plus pounds of fish (30lbs per acre) from the pond and will continue to remove more.

I have also considered building a small, 1/4-1/3 acre pond next to this pond, taking out as many of my current CNBG and RESF as possible, putting them in the small pond and then rotenone my five acre pond.

I was told even with that option I should wait until the spring, so whatever I do it doesn't seem as though I need to get in a hurry.

What a shame with a 5 acre pond. A 5 acre pond to me if managed right would be the ultimate... I am sorry OMC. In the mean time tho I would have fun fishing... and look at the positive side of it as much as you can.

RC

Basslover, great, great story.

X-rated story at that!!

Another newbie question from up North.

So say by whatever means, OMC reduces the LMB population down to the numbers he wants. How does he keep it that way? Won't a few spawning LMB in the spring of any LMB he puts in create the over population problem again? Is there, or will there be, some other fish in the pond that will be holding down the number of recruits? I guess this question really applies to just about any pond with LMB as the top predator.

Given that he does nothing, the new offspring will most likely be eaten. They become the forage base for hungry mouths.

Dave,

Sorry to be a little thick here but want to make sure I got it right. So those "hungry mouths" are the existing larger LMB?

In my pond, I'm targeting every male LMB that I can ID (by fishing for them while they are guarding their nests) and removing every LMB that is not feed trained. I tagged the feed trained ones that I stocked in 2010. That's how I think I can keep the WR numbers of the LMB up and not have them overeat the forage base.

In my pond, having the water level drop every year due to a groundwater based pond, puts the forage fish at a huge disadvantage. The water levels drop past where most of the cover is for them to hide in, so the LMB have a field day.

In a regular LMB pond, if 20# of LMB or more per surface acre isn't removed annually (of all sized fish) then there's a good chance that they will become stunted. Depending on your goals, that may be a good thing (if you are managing for large BG) or a bad thing (if you want a balanced fishery, or a trophy LMB pond).

Your best tool for managing LMB (or any fish species in the pond for that matter) is a good digital scale, a ruler or tape measure, a logbook and a relative weight chart. Weigh, measure and record every fish that you can. You will soon see trends start to ebb and flow, and those trends will tell you what your next step is management wise to keep on track to meet your goals.

OMC - Yes, you have time. If you do decide to drain and rotenone, I think having that small pond to put the fish you want to keep to restock is a great idea. You can push the limits on carrying capacity by having an aerator and/or a surface agitator in the pond to keep the O2 levels up, even with a high fish density.

Plus, after the drain/rotenone/restock is completed, you can use that pond for a forage pond, or for some different species that you don't have in the large pond. Say CC for fish fries during warmer months, and RBT for the cooler months.

Great story? Ha. Pretty funny video - the second one wherein the trespassers returned to find a 13x19 printed pic of their fun from their previous trespass.

Our land is private. But not 100% idiot proof (obviously). Every now and again someone or someones make an appearance. Most turn away at the postings and surveillance equipment. These 2 love birds made it beyond as they arrived in a route less traveled. In the end, their photo with the letter also posted was enough for them to gasp (literally), look at each other, the guy shrugs while the lady smacks him on the shoulder clearly embarrassed, and they depart never to return.

We're not concerned about good deeders dropping fish. I noticed some disturbances one day and while I had game cameras already installed, I had some signs made, posted, etc. We've got our largemouth bass from Greg (Grimes) in and growing, growing, growing. Our pond is very removed from other water bodies, and someone would have to travel a ways to drop a fish in. All of our bass are tagged, so any untagged bass would be easily identified. And enjoyed over dinner.

Bill D, the mortality rate is huge. Of all the fish eggs laid, about 1 to 2% ever get large enough to spawn. And, that is in a balanced pond. In the absence or extreme shortage of other forage, lmb fingerlings have even less chance to ever grow to maturity. Even in a "balanced" pond, the biggest predator of small lmb is larger lmb.

If you think about it, it has to be that way. Assume that the average BG lays about 20,000 eggs. And, given the opportunity in warmer climates, they might spawn 4 or 5 times. No pond could handle that biomass.

Overtons fishery brought 100 lbs of fatheads and shinner mix. I had same prob- new pond- non established forage base- and bucket bass added. Since I fish my pond often to check up on fish growth I may have got to the problem.... Least got my attention to start working on getting rid of as many bass as possible util the CNBG can catch up. Instead of shocking and removing I opted to fish and supplemental feeding of FHMs/ shinners.
Clint from Overtons was very helpful with handling questions and suggestions. Those guys are a class act...and they will go anywhere they are needed.


Pat W

OMC, if I can help you fish out he LMB, just let me know. Light tackle can travel.

Hello to all. New here. Been reading for a couple years now, but I'm now getting closer to a pond build myself so I thought I'd actually register and start researching a little more.

As I read this thread, there were a lot of thoughts that crossed my mind as to how the LMB got there.

1. Birds was my first thought. Up here in the land of 10,000 lakes there are a lot of isolated lakes, and unless they freeze out regularly, they all have fish in them. Even little 2-4 acre ponds in the middle of nowhere. Some relatives have a pond that is only a few feet deep and it freezes out every few years. A few years later there are always fish. But, they don't start as sizable fish, so when that 3lber was found, that discounted that possibility.

2. Flow from another body of water. Very possible, but the owner would know if that was probably or not.

3. The stocked fish. Possible up until the point were they were discovered to be very large.

4. Bucket. Possible but the owner said its not likely being home often and having dogs.

Like most, I'm going to go with the bucket, and a plausible scenario.... only because I was a young man once upon a time and I enjoyed a few beers from time to time.


Step 1: Bob and Tom pick up a case or two of beer
Step 2: Bob and Tom proceed to drink 75% of a case.
Step 3: Evening rolls around and B&T, while pondering the joys of life, decide that life would be better with their owning fishing hole. (and they have an idea of the perfect place) They can stock it at night, then wait a couple years, then go back and fish it at night.
Step 4: Bob's pickup transports them to the local lake with a bucket and 2 poles, along with more beer.
Step 5: Catch a few fish and place in bucket, drink some beer.
Step 6: Go back to OMC's pond and park a block down the road.
Step 7: Sneak in under the cover of darkness, dump the bucket in the pond and run like the wind. Hope dogs are either inside or cant hear them.
Step 8: Drink another beer at the truck.
Step 9: Drive poorly back home and bask the glory of their twilight mission. Have another beer.
Step 10: Pass out. Next morning remembering their actions, but not remembering where the pond was. Or - remembering where the pond was, but knowing that it was a bad idea and not worth ever going back to.

And then there were bass...

As far as fixing it, no idea there. I'm a newbie on ponds, but well experienced in midnight missions.

Best of luck.

Lightning
Welcome to the jungle it's a blast!



Pat W

Lightning,

I think you are on to something.

OMC,

Do you know two guys named Bob and Tom.....?

Lightning,
I believe I know some ole boys like that!!! Welcome to Pond Boss...
Charlie

I'm so glad that this thread finally made you want to post after all these years!!!

Your recount of the potential history of OMC's pond rings true on many levels.

There was almost a similar late night event at Pond Boss I with the target being the hotel's pond & fountain system.

Well because of the weather and just being busy, I had not fished the pond since December. During December I removed between 300 and 350 pounds of fish.

I decided to get back at it this weekend, knowing that the fish are either spawning or about to. I really don't think they have because we have had a good bit of ice and snow over the last couple of weeks and the water temp has been in the 40s until recently.

Over three outings, about two hours each I caught 23. All fish were considerably healther looking, a few actually looked like footballs, so I am confident that I have at least improved things somewhat. Many of the fish were also full of eggs.

There are many fish up really shallow, two feet or less, no doubt getting ready to spawn, but I am going to fix that tonight. My son had the bright idea to slow them down I just need to drop the water level about two feet. That will buy me a few more days. Then I may drop it a couple more feet a few days later.

My plan now is to remove as many more bass as I can over the next week or so and add a good bit more forage. Then add what I know to be full strain Florida large mouth, either fingerlings or full grown.

If I can come up with some adult Florida's, I was thinking of dumping in a thousand or so pounds of crawfish, to help keep them off of my other forage. What does everyone think about that?

If you drop the water level pay attention to see if the fish bite equally well after the draw down. Come back here are give your results. When I drew down my pond catching fish was not as easy as it was when the pond was full.

I like the idea of messing with the LMB spawn as a control measure.

I wonder if others have any experience in doing so.

Seems like the culling has been having an effect.

How much does the 1,000 lbs of crayfish cost?

I have not shopped hard, but I know that I can get them for under $1 a pound.

I'll report back. I expect the same thing. I don't have any experience with fishing ponds after the water drops, but I have a great deal of experience fishing lakes under those circumstances and the bite is almost always more difficult.

The fish on the left is a sample of what they look like now, the fish on the right is what they looked like in December.

It's amazing what thinning them out can do.

that is amazing!

OneMoreCast,
I'm surprised you can get crawfish that cheap... they are $3+/lb in south La.

That's strange. You can buy live crawfish one pound at a time from caterers for $1.50 per pound and you can get them boiled for $3.50.

That is a huge difference in fish condition!!

Congratulations!!!

Regarding the price of crawfish, I'm not sure what long term benefit you might get from putting 1,000 lbs. in, but if the money is not really a concern, then I don't think it hurts anything.

You do need to be aware of one type of craw (rusticus .....or something like that) that could have negative effects on existing craw populations.

Thanks. I am not real sure what effects it will have either.
My thinking is that if I put 1000lbs of crawfish in right before or when I put in my new bream, it may give my new bream population a better chance.

I just thought that I would update this.

I did have the bass in my pond DNA tested and they were all 100% native.

In late spring of 2015 I had more CNBG and FHM added to my pond. At about the same time, I dropped in 1000lbs of crawfish thinking this would keep the bass off of my CNBG and FHM.

During the summer I also had an unbelievable amount of bullfrog tadpoles in my pond. So many that you couldn't throw a moving bait with out hooking one every other cast. I did not put these in there, but I think they had a lot to do with my CNBG doing so well.

Then in spring of 2016 I had Greg Grimes do a survey of my pond and he said that of the 5000 plus ponds he had surveyed, mine had the highest population of bluegill he had ever seen.

During this time they only shocked up about 10 LMB and the average WR was about 115%.

In the fall of 2016 I added 42 Adult Pure Florida LMB averaging about 1lb each with a WR of about 100%. I also tagged all of these fish and recorded their weights.

Bass were very difficult to catch this winter, but I did catch a few.
Now that the water is warming and I have taken a little more time to fish, I am catching them a little better, I caught five Saturday in about four hours of hard fishing.

None of these fish were tagged, so I am assuming that there were all the original native fish.
They weighed 4.4lb, 4.4lb, 4.3lbs, 4.2lbs and 5.4lbs.

The average WR for these fish was about 115% with the 5.4lb being 120%.

I am tagging and recording every fish that I catch.

It's interesting that the Pure Florida bass do indeed seem to be much more difficult to catch.

I have three feeders feeding Aquamax HEAVILY. I did slow down the feeding during the winter, but I never stopped it.

All last spring and summer I averaged feeding about 300-400 pounds per week and I believe that the fish would have easily eaten ten times that amount. They can eat it almost as fast as the feeders can throw it.

In retrospect, I am very happy with how my pond has turned out so far and I'm actually glad that the native bass are in there.

Now I will eventually have some F1's, if my CNBG don't eat all of the fry. Meanwhile I have a decent number of 4-5lb native bass that I can actually catch and hopefully they will be 6 plus pounds this time next year.

Thanks for all of the help.

So how did the bass get in there, what was the answer to the mystery stocking event?

No idea

you remove the ones from the electro survey and any untagged fish or are you leaving them to breed with the FL BASS you added?

Just curious, but what is the reason for supplemental (heavily) feeding when you're so BG/forage heavy?

Great story and glad to see you're happy with how it's turning out. Congrats!

Great success story!

I have the opposite problem, not enough forage for my Fla Bass. Trying to fix it, but won't be easy, even with feeder program.

Good to hear the update.

Nice when a plan works out. Even when some of it is unplanned.

OMC, sounds like you have things going your way. I have also learned when it comes to ponds, you will get a curve ball every once in a while. Making lemonade out of a few lemons.

So, by our current thinking, if you are feeding 300-400lbs of feed a week, you are adding 150-200 lbs per week of weight to the feed-eating fish!!!

That is crazy!!!

OneMoreCast. A few questions:
1. Did G.Grimes give any opinion why more LMB were not collected? Do you see evidence of annual bass recruitment? Did grimes provide a LMB size structure chart and estimates of LMB densities? Are the bass there and were not collected? What time of day did he electoshock?

2. ""if you are feeding 300-400lbs of feed a week, you are adding 150-200 lbs per week of weight to the feed-eating fish!!!"" Did grimes provide a BG size structure chart and estimates of BG densities? Are you doing any harvesting of the BG? Since the Grimes survey revealed dense BG, Some BG harvest of the large ones should be done or your next problem will be too much fish biomass, fish stresses will occur, and a fish kill will be likely when weather and pond conditions align negatively. Dumping excess food into a contained body of water without appropriate harvest continually increases fish biomass until the pond eventually pukes.

This from Bob Lusk - "Too much feed can result in too many pounds of fish, too many pounds of waste, and ultimately, problems with your water quality, if your pond water can not work with Mother Nature to clean up the extra mess. In extreme cases, I have seen overfed ponds end up with massive die-offs related to poor water quality and low levels of dissolved oxygen."

1. Yes, Greg did supply an opinion as to why more bass were not collected. There are not many in there. lol

I have seen thousands of very small fry this year, but I'll be very surprised if many or any survive the bluegill population.

Greg did supply me with the LMB size chart. He believes that the density is low, which I am good with. But he did suggest I add 40 adult bass. I added 42.

My goal is to ultimately be able to go out on a given day for a few hours and catch 3-4 fish and those fish weigh 6 plus pounds.

The shocking was done mid morning on a cloudy day.

2.Greg did supply me with a BG size Chart. Approximately 60% were 5"-7", 25% 3"-5" and 10% 7"-9".
I haven't kept a tab on the numbers or weight of the BG that have been harvested, but it has been hundreds of lbs of 8" plus.

have you been removing the non tagged or clipped (non stocked LMB)?