I'm new here and have enjoyed all I have read. But I have this question for the ones who know I just completed a 3.5 acre water shed in N.E. Texas just north of Marshall, and have been talking to Todd and Walt @ Overtons about a stocking program. my plans were to stock Fatheads and 1/2 of the bream now but at the last minute we have held off due to the cold front. So I am thinking the water temps will most likely not improve, so when would I stock the forage fish for my new Bass pond? Like most, I want fish ASAP

I think you can still do the stocking this year.

The fish are not going to be in 'growth' mode over the winter, although you are in Texas.

However, once things warm up in Spring 2015, you'll be ahead of the game.

Plus, there's just so much joy in stocking fish. Why preclude yourself?

I am ready for the game to start. But it was suggested I wait till after the cold snap. I wondered why? The water may not warm up after the cold snap, and most likely will get another cold front behind this one. But I may look stupid but I have learned how to listen to those in the Know !!! Thanks for your responce

I don't know how cold it got for you, but certainly, Overton know's his business.

I'd at least have to put the fatheads in.

Hi TGW1, Like sunil said,it should not be a real problem. BUT, our fish here in East Texas probably do not transport as well with below freezing temp just like they fish do not transport well in real hot East Texas summers, as you may know. If your pond ices over, then it is better for you to let Todd handle that possible issue in his ponds. Point being, don't know how much you are spending but it would be a shame to have a die off or fish kill, when a little warmer temps could prevent any problems.

From what I have read and understand from many of the PB'ers here transported fish have the shock/stress of being caught,then transport stress, and then the release into "New/Different water. It is not a chance for your money to wait until conditions are right, whereas if you stock, no matter how it is done Todd,like most, would want to make it right if the fish died, why take the chance.

As you know, if you are from East TX then this is a early, rare, hard freeze, for us. If it were me personally I would wait,IMHO. I do not want to speak for Todd other than say I DO and HAVE taken his advice for the simple fact that he knows.IMHO
Anyway, Welcome and please take pics when you can and post so we can see. Good luck and wish for Fat and Happy fish!

Yep, that's what I'm thinking

TGW1
Welcome to the family

I'm a new pond owner also .1 year this November, if Todd says wait then I would wait. He prob wants the temp to stabilize after this unusually cold fall(for us in Texas) I'm only 20 miles from him. I'm Having issues with early stockage of bass before my forage base was established. ( I didn't put them in) so as a warning to you tell all your well meaning neighbors not to throw anything in there without you at least seeing it. This early stocking has decimated my forage fish before they got going good. So listen to what these guys say cause they been there and done that. Good luck.

Pat W

As mentioned don't let any predators in until the forage species have spawned over a summer and you will be rewarded by bigger fish faster and a higher quality fishery long term. Waiting for forage fish to reproduce first results in accelerated growth later a very important feature if you are looking for trophy bass. Listen to the Overtons.

First of all, I would like to say thanks for all of your comments, and look forward to more.:) Update, after the cold front had passed, the pond was stocked . With forage fish for the LMB and HSB that will come in 2015. Walt from Overtons came last Wed. He checked the water prior to stocking. PH was 9.0, ( I added about 3.5 tons of agg lime where the water well(50 gpm)runs into the pond). Alkalinities 1.5 and hardness 40ppm. He was surprised to see some water color (green), and I told Walt I had added small block of Dehydrated Alfalfa to the water a while back. He seamed surprised the Water clarity was (12 inches) because the pond is new and red clay is the base of the soil. After checking the water, we started with the stocking. Adding 3,500 (2 to 3")CNBG, 1,000 Redears (2-3") and 100 lbs of Fatheads. Along with 300 Threadfin shad in the 3" size. I hope the shad will make it through the winter, Walt thinks they will do just fine. There is some green stuff growing on and around the different structures in the pond, not sure if that is what they eat? Or the the fish food being dispensed by the Texas hunter fish feeder that Walt put together for me. We added 50 lbs of high protein fish food to the feeder. I lost about 12 shad in the process of stocking. We discussed adding a couple of towsacks of crawfish this spring when they are available. I may have buy a couple more bags for a crawfish boil at the same time. I sure like boiled crawfish:). And we also discussed stocking Golden shiners at some point. Walt said they seam to do well here around the Caddo lake area. Ok ,Guys, all of the above is open for discussion. Let me hear it. I'm like a new kid and want to gain all the knowledge I can from you pond guys and girls. Thanks for letting me talk here as you might see, I can be long wended some times:)

TGW1,
Welcome to Pond Boss. I am a new pond owner as well. I stocked my forage fish back in August & September. I followed the same route as you, going with Overton's...you are in good hands, rest assured. I'm still supplemental feeding my CNBG, RES, & FHM. I was up at my place this past weekend working & hunting. When the feeder went off, the fish were still nailing it. I will continue to feed as long as they continue to eat. When they stop (if they stop), I will turn it off. This is a unique forum...all the questions about pond challenges seem to get resolved here.

Looks like you are off to a good start to me. Now it is hurry up and wait for them to grow.

Also a new pond owner. The waiting for them to grow is the toughest part!.....Anybody got a set of fish stretchers they're not using??!!

I found that hand feeding really kept my interest level engaged. Even if a pondmeister has an automatic feeder, still can do some hand feeding. Interesting watching the fish feed and see behavior changes as they grow.

You guys are a step or 3 ahead of me.:). I am so happy about getting the pond stocked I have not even thought about them growing. Ha !! I am so new at this , when I went out to do a little hunting on Sunday afternoon, and went by to ck on the pond it was (OH Carp !), the pond had come up about 10" from the rains the day and night before and the feeder legs were in about 6" of water. And after several attempts to move it, I had to call for help and so my son came out and I know what he was thinking. Dumb arse, why did you set it up here?
I am kind of known in the family for tearing thing up or overdoing =. LOL
I live in Shreveport, but the land is across the line near Karnack and Caddo lake. Both my Kids were born in Texas (awhile back) and so I have always considered us to be misplaced Texans. And Thanks for letting me visit and such. Any of you guys know about keeping Golden shiners in your pond, and you think the might stay around?

I would wait on the GShiners. What you have now will work. In the spring check for shad reproduction. That will be a key. If they do well then with the BG and RES and FH you would be ok. If I was going to add another species it would be tilapia.

Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. I am feeling a little like an expecting father.:) Not exactly (been there), but a little unsure of what is going on because I can't see in the water. I've been feeding 1 sec per late afternoon. Water temp was 52 at last check and visibility was at 12" but after a couple days rain it is now 4". I see little to no feeding at the feeder and never see any of the forage fish that were stocked. I have seen a couple of Blue Harran on the shore and a couple times a Kingfisher over the pond, and a couple of White cranes wading around and I know the are eating my fish. . Ok, so after I made a bow hunt on a warm day, and returning across the dam area, there was a strong fish smell the the air. An odor I usually associate with Bream Beds on Caddo Lake. I went on to the house and was resting up when the thought of dead fish floating. Oh Carp!! The next day I looked the shoreline over and saw no dead fish. So, What u think? I did see a little movement on the surface of the water that next day. I am already thinking of adding some more forage asap. And Talapia will be on the list as soon as the water warms up. The pond is 2/3rds full at this time. Why the strong fish odor? Should be no bedding would there? Or was it the shad? Apparently I have no patience and want to see a result of all the work I put into this.

TGW

Is your feed a fish meal base? When the feed hits the water it gives off a fishy smell if
fish meal base.


Pat W

Be patient.

One of the downfalls of late fall or winter stocking is that you really don't see anything until the spring, and that leaves you wondering.

Hang in there!!

Thanks guys, and I'm feeding Cargills (I think) purchased from Overtons and it does have a fish smell. I just thought the strong fish smell across the whole dam area might have been a die off until I found no dead fish. Kinda of freaked, if you know what I mean. And I can't see what is going on down there. Thanks again

TGW1

The fishy smell is almost a good smell ( fresh). Chunk out some feed and get downwind and you will be able to tell for sure. It reminds me of speckled trout feeding in the surf in the Gulf Of Mexico!


Pat W

your rite Pat. I like that smell when I'm out fishing. i know there are baitfish in the area

TGW,

I just wanted to encourage you. I think the stocking you have done thus far is great.

I cannot say enough positive things about Walt and the Overton Crew. I had the "Pond Boss" himself do my initial setup and stocking. I started out on the perfect path due to seeking advice from Bob.

a year later, I needed a source for hybrids. I met Walt at that time,and since then I have had talapia, hybrids in the spring and trout in the fall. They are a top notch group and will help you with your pond goals.

Time will show you the advantage of superior genetics that you have in your pond!

Thank you Dustin. I am just another one who wants a nice place to catch big bass and big HSB. haha I am thinking Todd @ Overtons is prob. thinking "OH Great" another email from Tracy. Like when, how and why Todd ?? HAha

And Big Red Ears and Big CNBG HAHhahaha

Hey, a boy can dream can't he?

Thanks for the support from everyone here. It's nice to have someone to bounce things off of. To keep things rolling, I thought I would ask a few things and adjust if necessary.
First of all, in my emails with Todd @ Overtons, he told me I could go ahead with additional stocking as long as we keep an eye on the weather, adjusting stocking date should new cold fronts show up.
And I continue to feed using the Texas hunter which is set up at 1 sec feeding at 4:30pm. And yesterday the weather was nice with a 70 degree day. I watched the FH and CNBG and RES feed for 20 min. They became more active 10 min after the feeder threw out the Cargels feed.
Here is a question for you. My water is bordered with red clay. I am thinking of having 12 yds of larger size pea gravel delivered. My thinking is for RES spawning beds. It would be added to the sloops of the banks. The pond still need to fill another 3'. Is this worth the money spent? Will it improve RES population ?
Another question. How old or what size do the CNBG and RES spawn? Am I better off to get the remainder of the CNBG and RES fish stocking in the pond now or wit till March 1. If I wait, will the newbies, spawn in May as the water temps rise? Or will the fish be to young to spawn? The newbies will probably be in the 2 to 3" size. Thanks
Tracy

I'm only going to address the question of rock lining the perimeter of the pond and leave the other parts to those who know what they are talking about.

I like the rock I put around my pond banks (and down to about 3' like you propose).

Here is a thread that might be helpful in your deliberation.

Rock lining a pond bank

There are some other links within that thread that are probably better than the thread linked itself.

Tracy
Email Todd on whether to add CNBG now or spring- he has 3-6" CNBG now that will spawn in the spring.

Aw your RES eating pellets? If so how did you feed train them? I didn't think that they responded well to pellets


Pat W

Snrub, Thank you for the information. I may need the rock to improve water clarity at some point in time, and the photos of your banks with the rock looks good and was helpful in clearing up the cloudy water. I was looking for a way to possibly improve on RES reproduction. And was hoping someone had tried adding gravel beds to their pond. And I was hoping someone had some experience with improving RES spawning beds, over E Texas native clays. I did spread out some sand on one end of the pond for spawning ground for CNBG and LMB.
Pat, I don't know if the Res were actively feeding and I should have just said the forage fish were feeding. I only hope the Red Ears were in the group

In a clients pond where there are RES, they prefer to spawn on 1/4"-2" river rock "beds" that he put in for SMB spawning habitat vs. the sand bottom of the ponds.

Thanks esshup That is what I was wondering about. I was Bass fishing on Toledo Bend yr's ago and while throwing a spinner bait, I caught an RES that was in the 12" or better. It was so big I did not recognize what it was at first. And that size fish is what I would like to have in the pond some day. So before I spend the $ for the addition of the larger size pea gravel, I was hoping someone here would give their experience with such things. And esshup thanks. The cost for 12 yds of the gravel delivered is going to be around $900, and my time and effort to spred it around. That's a lot of $ if it is a waste or no improvement for spawning RES.

If you want it to last longer where you put it, put geotextile fabric under it so the rocks don't work their way into the clay bottom over time.

If you really want to get the best use from the gravel that you put in the pond, wait until after the fish have spawned once in the pond, and you see where in the pond they like to nest. Then put the gravel there. I made shallow areas in my pond when I designed it specifically for the fish to spawn on. The first year or two, they ignored that area and spawned on the opposite side of the pond. Then the next year they used that area, then the following year they went back to where the spawned the first two years.

It seems that the fish weren't on the same page as I was......

In my clients pond, he had the spawning beds scattered all around the perimeter of the pond, and not all of them have RES using them.

Scott, any recommendations as to the actual specs of the fabric?

Not really. There's a LOT of different grades out there, and it all depends on your pocketbook. I try and use material that will allow for no seams or overlapping of material if possible.

Under the riprap that I have in my pond, the material looks like felt and was 14' wide. IIRC it was $10/linear foot.

Rubber pond liner underlayment is cheap, thick, and doesn't biodegrade. It may be the same stuff for all I know. Just a wider availability around here.

What about using sleds, kiddie pools, etc nailed to the bottom to hold the gravel? Fill 'em up, drag 'em in, nail 'em in place? Would them sticking up off the bottom deter fishes nesting in them?

Kiddy pools !! I like that idea, I have an 18 year old grandson I might be able to get his help with this I can already see how it might be fun to watch us sink these pools The things I do! always looks easier that it turns out to be lol

In the archives there is a picture in the cover/structure thread of using round sled saucers filled with gravel for spawning beds....

essup, when I go to the archives , I usually get a Data based problem and am not able to pull up the information. I'm not sure what the problem is. An example would be in the crawfish archives where I was looking on information on paper shells, all I get is a blocked out area stating data based problem. Any ideas here?

I know how why it happened, and I can tell you what to change to view the links, but I don't know how to fix it.

If you click on one of the links and you get the database error message, if you look in the "http" window at the top of the page (I don't know what it's called - I'm not that computer literate) it will show this:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110188&fpart=1

The only way that I know how to read that link is to change what is shown in the window manually. Here's what you do.

delete http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110188&fpart=1

and move the "forums" part to here http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110188&fpart=1

Then click on the refresh button in the browser and the link should open.

It's better if you do it in a 2nd window that you open. Easier to see what you are doing that way.

Clear as mud???

The forum was hacked a while back and when it came back on-line a lot of the old links were corrupted/broken. That's the only way that I know how to make them readable, but it's not a permanent fix - I don't know how to do that.

Thanks esshup, I don't understand why anyone would want to hack this site. makes no since to me, the knowledge and experience and wisdom offered is worth a lot. But I don't think it is something u can exchange for $$. Friendships discovered because of we want to make the world a better place through fishing and land improvements and raising better fish.

Us moderators deal with spammers on a daily basis, most of it happens behind the scenes and the regular members don't even know it happened. Possibly one of them got upset that we banned them and found a way to do damage? Just a guess tho.

As Dave Davidson commented here " A man can dream" . You Good People, have been good enough to make some recommendation here and so let me pick your brain as I need lots of help since the older I get, my brain functions slower. So, in reading old post, I found where a 5lb 12.8 oz RES was caught in Arizona. And I have shown interest here in the possibility of building and or improving spawning beds for RES in my new pond. Next question is, how to get the RES to gain wt to Trophy RES? Can it be done in a 3.5 acre fishery? Pond will have LMB and HSB as the preferred big fish. But can a pond of this size only have two? Since the RES feed on Snails as their primary diet, they may not compete for the same forage as the LMB and HSB. I know a larger RES will feed on FH minnows but?? What about crawfish stocking (papershells) and can the preferred snails be stocked ? Are Grass shrimp a preferred diet of RES? And since this pond is new, and no grass is there, How and when do you stalk the shrimp?
And as a side note, I floated my 12X16' 9 barrel pier this week after a good rain. Built it with my Grandson on the pond bottom and let the water come up to get it floating.

I am not a RES expert. However, I've never been sure, and doubt, that they feed on snails as a primary diet. They certainly can feed on snails more effectively than other fish. But, like most fish, they are opportunists and will eat anything smaller that comes their way.

Here are actual pics of Redear beds/bedding.

Ewest

Hope you are right. RES are my favorite fish but in a new pond there's few if any snails yet. I, like many on here want RES but it seems not that much is known about them and their eating habits. Think u are right that they will eat what is in front of them


Pat W

Pat see this re RES food items.

As an info source I am adding 2 charts on what lepomis eat. In short like all predatory fish - they eat what they can.


http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3378 redear sunfish

Trans. Am. Fish. Soc., 107(5): 713-719, 1978

¸ Copyright by the American Fisheries Society, 1978

A Discriminant Functions Analysis of Sunfish (Lepomis)

Food Habits and Feeding Niche Segregation in the

Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Estuary

WAYNE J. DESSELLE, MICHAEL A. POIRRIER, JAMES S. ROGERS, AND

ROBERT C. CASHNER



Bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus , Green Sunfish, Lepomis cyanellus , Redear Sunfish, Lepomis microlophus ,

Pumpkinseed, Lepomis gibbosus , Longear Sunfish, Lepomis megalotis , Redbreast Sunfish, Lepomis auritus
















From another AFS study

Ewest, do you find it odd that in the first chart the only fish eating palomonetes (grass shrimp) are spotted sunfish and warmouth? BG and RES check marks are glaringly missing.

BG and RES don't eat grass shrimp???????

BG totally eat grass shrimp. And I bet that RES would also. Maybe in this particular study the grass shrimp occupied an area frequented mostly by spots and warmouth?

Sprkplug

If that's the case- which I'm sure it is - how can I do the shrimp thing without grass or pond weed? One year old pond is void of weeds so far. I can get plenty of shrimp from a creek but the won't make it w/ out grass . Is it advised to put vegetation in or none at all? If so which is the least bad


Pat W

I think it was Shorty that told me in an earlier post that the PK shrimp will also use rocks and rubble as cover. As I recall his story, he had some in an aquarium with some RES. He figured the RES had eaten them all, but when cleaning out the aquarium of the rocks, lots of PK shrimp were hidden in the rocks, indicating at least some of them were able to avoid predation by using the aquarium rocks for cover.

Hopefully he will see this and say for sure I got the story right. I had expressed the same concern as you Pat, but my forage pond had lots of 2-3" rocks for cover, so Shorty thought they would be ok. I stocked the shrimp during the early summer, and this fall using a dip net was able to net a few. So far, so good. I will be anxious come spring to see how many I can find.

Links to other threads about PK shrimp.
2014 PK shrimp
2010 PK shrimp
Any benefit from shrimp?
2009 shrimp order

Another RES diet thread Pat.

RES diet

Shorty's observation RES eating FHM

Thanks very interesting. I think I'm going to stock more red ear. And see what happens. 5 ac aught to be enough for about anything and I tend to think outside the box at times. I'm left handed. Lol

Pat W

That very question is why I do not utilize grass shrimp as natural forage. To me, it seems almost a trade-off of sorts...vegetation will give the shrimp a better chance of establishing in my pond, but it also offers cover for yoy bluegills, which is contrary to my management strategy.

Does the vegetation that is beneficial for grass shrimp, balance out the probability of increased recruitment of bluegills? I just don't know, and thus far I have been unwilling to take the chance.

Don't you want some cover for YOY BG ? I have very little cover and no YOY that I can tell. The bass have eaten them up. I guess it is a trade off for sure but not sure always a good one. This spring I'm planning on adding bunch of mudbugs to help the YOY survival a little. Diversity

Pat, it depends upon one's goals, and the management strategy employed to try and achieve success. In most of my ponds the goal is large bluegills, which means that limiting recruitment is beneficial...fewer mouths to feed means more food for those that are left. LMB are utilized strictly as a management tool in these ponds, NOT as a goal orientated fish themselves. I consider them sacrificial, actually. If I have an abundance of skinny, stunted, 12" bass I'm happy!

We talk a lot about balance here on the forum... but an unbalanced pond, (as a departure from the "usual" idea of balance), can make for some big fish.

That's why I like riprap in ponds for cover. Crayfish also utilize it for cover.

Don't you need vegetation to control some of the nutrients in the water? I am told in my area to expect high nutrient load, especially phosphorus, coming from the agricultural water shed.

That's why they make fluridone and cutrine!

Ahhh! That goes back to your previous input about it is all about what your goal is. Mine is to try to manage by harvesting and supplemental stocking to have a pond that provides good fishing and table fare when we want it. I know I may have to do some things to adjust water qualty but I am hoping to do it in as natural way as I can. I am thinking the chance of a trophy fish in my pond will be remote.....but don't be surprised if you see a little tarter sauce on my chin in any picture I may post in the future!

Merry Christmas man!

My goals I think are similar to yours Bill D. To date, I'm not into the trophy fish thing, although as I learn to fish more/better the bug may bite me. Right now I'm perfectly happy to catch numerous nice size fish. We have eaten a few (several CC) but have held off because the BG that are table fare size are our breeders. By next summer though, I hope we can take fish out to eat weekly. Pound or a little better BG and two to three pound CC and LMB (that are plentiful and easy to catch) would just tickle me pink.

Snrub,

I would say we are definitely on the same page, I am just a year or so behind you. CC will be my number 1 target this coming summer!

I had never been a big fan of eating catfish. What I had eaten in restaurants ranged from decent to I did not care much for it. Was a little too oily fish for my taste.

But the CC we have caught so far from our pond have been as good as any fresh water fish I've eaten. I was pleasantly surprised and pleased how much I liked them. And they grow like crazy! Of course right now they are young and are supplemental fed, so they should taste as good as they are going to get. I have been happy with the CC so far.

Just hope I can continue to catch them and get them out before they get too big and become a problem for other fish in the fishery.

CC taste better in the late fall-late winter . One to three lbs best eating after that they get fatty tasting.


Pat

Will, here I am again thanking everyone for letting me bounce things off your heads. Alot of info it will take me some time to digest. Pat, u mentioned u will trap some grass shrimp from creeks etc. Can u tell how or where u plan on doing this? How many would you shoot for, and how much work are we talking about? And are that easy to find in E Texas? And you are going to add crawfish this spring. Walt @ Overtons said(as we added fish to my pond) that I should add a couple of bags of crawfish this spring. So are you adding native or are you adding Papershells? I am thinking 4 bags instead of 2 haha.

People around here use grass shrimp to catch RES in the late winter during the pre-spawn. The RES are called "lake-runners" because they live in brackish waters that surround and feed Lake Pontchartrain.

TGW1
I actually live in a town south of Houston called Pearland, there is a creek near me that has shrimp and gambusia in it . I just wade in with a fine net and get busy. Work, well it's all in how you view it! I'll spend an hour at it then carry them back to the house and put them in a ice chest and when I'm ready i run up to Buffalo and dump them int the pond. It is likely they get eaten but maybe a few make it. That's how I got the gams going in there. Just need nature to give me some "good"pond weed for the shrimp and gams to hide in


Pat W

Thanks for the info Pat. I have a bayou that passes through my property and I might just have to take a look see. I am not real crazy about getting in it, as a few big Western Cottonmouths hang around there. And I found a thread here where someone gets his out of a pond in N.La. So I guess I have just take net a travel. or maybe I can just point and let my 19 yr old grandson work the net for me. I'm bad

I've thought about taking something like a cattle panel for structural strength (we have a bunch laying around from the days we had cattle on the farm), and attaching some half or one inch fish netting to it. Then from the bank, use it as a reverse seine to force all the fish away from the bank by keeping the panel in a semi-circle. Then once in place use some steel posts to keep it there. So it would provide a very small "cove" of protection to introduce things like PK shrimp or even small fish. They could easily pass through the fence to "danger" of predation, but at least they would start out in a protected area and maybe would stay there at least long enough to get somewhat acclimated to their water and surroundings. Have not done this. Just thought about it if I get enough PK shrimp production in my forage pond and decide to net some and introduce them to the main pond. A person could use two panels and have a 32' long fence with the cove in an "A" shape out into the water also.

Snrub

Actually a good idea if the fish mesh is readily available

Pat W

Pat, the panels sound like something I would try. Sometimes I do a lot of manual labor and $ and then it works only half as well as planned. But always looking for ways to make things best. Keep up the good work and pass it on, it might save me some time and labor.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Tracy

Think you could kind of accomplish the same effect as the panels with net by lining up tightly spaced brush piles?

I main disadvantage to brush as dense cover is it does not last long in the pond. Smallest twigs decompose relatively quickly after a year or two and need to be periodically replaced if the goal is dense cover as reuge. Larger tree limbs work pretty good as 'fluffy' open type cover. I use twiggy tree branches placed along shore for YP egg laying habitat. Smaller twigs rarely last two years. Grass shrimp actually need and thrive best in cover that is more finely divided than twigs on tree banches. Fine structure similar to evergreen branches with the needless is better type of cover for the grass shrimp than regular tree branches. The best cover type for grass shrimp is not desired by anglers in ponds because this type of cover is hard to fish in.

You can get various plastic netting/fencing in the big box hardware/lumber stores. It surely is not as good quality as regular plastic fish netting, but it is readily available. Something pretty reasonably priced for a long piece is the safety fencing used in construction to fence off areas so people will not fall into holes, etc.. It has fairly large openings but would at least keep the large fish out. I would think some netting with holes about half that size would be better though.

Merry Christmas to All
After a Family gathering on Christmas Eve, I have some quit time this morning before this Great Day begins. So I would like to a moment to see what you fine people think about this. What if I was to make a small area of lets say 30x30' and closed in with some type of small mesh 1/4" +or-. This is a new pond so not much for the grass shrimp to eat. But I am thinking Willow limbs along the bank. They stay green for a couple of weeks, slowly dying and providing food and cover to the shrimp. Hoping the shrimp will eat the willow leaves and replacing the willows as needed. Would this give the shrimp a place to reproduce until you say open the gates. Let the shrimp disperse into the bigger world of the pond. You think that might work?
I am thinking a pond full of 3" CNBG along with the RES are going to have a feast if I release 1000 this spring. Pat said he does not think of it as work when he collects the shrimp and Gams but I am thinking a lot of work to trap a thousand or so and with all that work I hate to see the fish lick their lips for 1 day feast

I don't know what they eat. But in any case I wouldn't use willow branches unless you want a lot of willows growing in your pond..... I'd bet at least some will root.......

I was thinking of removing old used willow branches and replacing with new prior to rooting. And I thought I read where the shrimp ate decaying plants and etc. But I am not so sure of that. I have a few 30' cedars on the place and might be able to use some limbs of it for a short time, as I don't want to end up with a bare 30'ceder post.

One thing I read about the shrimp is they eat detritus. Pond bottom muck.

I am pretty certain they eat 32% sinking catfish pellets also. I have trapped them with FHM in a cylindrical minnow trap. Pretty sure they were going in there to get the pellets I was using as bait for the minnows. If I am right about this, tossing in a few sinking feed pellets (higher protein would likely be better) regularly might give them something to eat while the natural food chain is lacking.

I had some cedar's that were too tall for my pond also. Couple of things you can do. Cut them in half vertically and do two placements. Another thing I did was cut all the limbs off one side of the tree, then lay it on its side on the bottom. Then I laid concrete foundation chunks on top of the trunk to keep them in place (before pond filled).

Esshup

Speaking of willows, I have tons that are coming up around the edge of pond and dam. Been pulling up the ones on dam but have left the others alone , would they be good habitat as pond fills or should they be removed?


Merry Christmas all

Pat W

Pat, I'd remove them. They will get in the way if you want to access the pond from shore, and they suck up a lot of water during the year.

Around here, if a person wants to dry up a wet area, plant a few willows. Once the trees get larger, the area won't be wet any longer.

Pat, willows are extremely invasive. Get rid of every one of them. If you drive along rural roads and see a big willow or cottonwood, there is a good bet that you can jump the fence and find an old dried up stock tank. I pull them and/or spray them every year. They both suck an amazing amount of water. It's a yearly maintenance deal for me.

Dave, wtih me, I spray/pull them the same frequency that I take care of cattails - almost monthly.

Looks like I got a lot of pullin to do! Not any willows even close to us so I guess that will be a yearly thing .... O boy... Now we havin fun! Noticed some cat tails that need to be removed...

Thanks guys


Pat W

I left a few willows in my pond. One all alone about 4" around and another that is a clump of 4 all with a 3" base. My planes were to have the base of the trees in 5' of water. I did this because I remember fishing Lake Texhoma where the willows were in 4 to 5' of water and always caught fish around the area. Now I read where a WILLOW WITH A 30' mass can take up to 400 gpd drink. I wont be able to get them with my bucket now as they are two far from bank and are in about 4' of water. I guess I will see if I can get them with my chainsaw. And then coat the top of the cut with herbicide. Lovely just lovely. sounds like some extra work for me. Crap

TGW1

It's all fun! That's why we have a pond! For all the "fun"! LOL


Pat W

Pat W
Pat right now, I am ready for the fun to begin. So far it has been a lot of $$ and a lot of work. The fun has been in my dreams of having a great place to fish and to sit and watch over the wildlife around and in the pond. Thank God for the dreams

TGW1

I think we all know how that is, but if it wasn't work then we wouldn't appreciate it near as much when things go right. I just spent $1K on FHMs and shinners cause of untimely bucket stocking of bass at the wrong time. But we will get over it.

Pat

Question here guys. Lets talk vegetation in a new pond in E Texas. So u have a pond where 3 of the 4 the banks are steep. If u r standing at waters edge and take two steps out u will be in 4 to 6 foot of water. I am not sure what the grade is. I asked my builder to do it that way because reduced light penetration from water depth, ment less weed growth. I was trying to reduce the chances of vegetation getting out of hand. Not sure it will work, but that was my thought process. I do want some vegetation, and so when do I plant the seeds. The pond should be full by Feb if not before. I am using well water and rain run off to fill. Do I put the seed in now? And let the water come up and cover the planted seed of what? Better to have the vegetation I want, crowding out what I don't want? What and when would u plant?
Thanks
Tracy

Are you talking about submerged plants, emergent plants, marginal plants or above the water plants?

Hi esshup, I was thinking submerged by growing up to the surface. Maybe with and umbrella effect at the surface. Not crazy about lilly pad types but maybe something that has a small covering leaf that gives a shaded area. I am not sure if I should put the seeds out now and wait for water to cover and then wait for spring growth. All new to me when it comes to growing something in the water. What u think?

Tracy,

Where are you getting seeds? I was planning on transplanting vegetation but I like the seed idea.

Bill

American and Illinois pondweed would provide the shading/cover you suggest here. I have both species and find them easily managed, easy to fish through, and good for YOY protection.

Thank you for the suggestion. How did u get the pondweed started? And was it added prior to full pool? Thanking u ahead. And Bill, I am not sure how to get the seeds or how to get it started. Looking for some experience here. I was hoping to find out how to before it is to late and I wind up with native that wants to overtake the pond. I figure if I can take up the space with something good, it will not leave the space for something bad.

I'd do what TJ suggested. You can also put in some lilies, but make sure they are hardy lilies so they don't spread like wildfire.

Same plan as mine. Get the good guys established before the bad guys move in. I have a list of plants suited for Northern Illinois I will be sourcing in the spring and have some good leads on local suppliers. I know I can get plants to transplant but seeds would be a lot cheaper.

Bill, if you can get plants, and you know that you aren't bringing anything into the pond on the plants that you don't want, I'd go with the plants vs. the seeds. If you direct seed, how long are you willing to wait if the seeds don't germinate? With crops, you can tell within a week or two. With seeds in a pond, I have no idea how fast they grow from seeds.

I think you'd have a better success rate with plants vs. seeds.

Yea, I know you are right. I will just plant the plants and bite the bullet on the cost. I might buy seeds for a "bonus" species or two and report back to you guys how the experiment went.

Bill, I would also like to look at thee seeds if they are available somewhere. I am thinking I can throw out some and see what takes place. I'm thinking transplanting will have me bent over and wadeing in water, knee deep on a steep bank to put each plant around the banks of a 3.5 acre pond. How many times will a man slip and go under? Not the kind of job I was looking for. I can see me now. It would beat me to death so to speak. And I might get my grandson to do it as I pointed and said do it here, but I don't think I could find him the next day because he would be hard to find I'm sure.

I am hoping to keep the planting to a minimum by just establishing a good starter group of each species in the pond where I want them and letting nature take its course to fill in.

So far I have found tons of info on controlling vegetation and almost nothing on selecting and planting to establish vegetation. Let me know if you find anything.

There are numerous threads on types of plants to choose. Depends on location and goals.

Start here.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=15&page=1

Bill Cody can help with input on beneficial submergent and emergent vegetation cultivars - it's available throughout historical forum posts but finding them isn't easy. A partial list of what I've managed to remember follows to try and help [I am not an expert by any means] - but bear in mind any vegetation can become a management problem regardless of it's "beneficial" status:

Submergent

American Pondweed - floating leaves
Illinois Pondweed - floating leaves
Several species of more dense, bushy type pondweeds exist like Curly leaf, Sago, Horned, Baby, Eelgrass, etc. Again, these can all serve as management issues depending on how it proliferates - at least some management is typically required through manual removal, herbicides, or organic management via GC.

Emergent

I have various sedges and rushes which I cannot identify but enjoy along the pond margins as they help erosion/siltation by stabilizing banks.

I also have Arrowhead and consider it's presence beneficial.

Cattails can help stabilize pond shorelines and assist with absorbing wave action leading to erosion/siltation. However, I eradicate all cattails monthly as they are a preferred forage item for muskrats - a population I too am trying to manage. They also can quickly become a management issue requiring intensive management solutions including excavation using heavy equipment = $$$.

Again, I'm only scratching the surface here, and I'm far from an expert. Most ponds are seeded naturally, good or bad, in year 2 of existence and beyond and it's up to us to encourage the "beneficial" and eliminate the "problematic" cultivars.

PS: I failed to include hybrid lilies - on which Cody is our resident expert and he's written articles about them in PB. I'd like to get some going on my ponds this year.

Thaks Ewest and TJ. Looks like I have some good leads here. I have had a couple of good discussions with Bill Cody on the subject and have a good shopping list started. I am hoping the plant wholesaler I get the plants from provides details on each species of how to plant each one. Other than some input from Bill C. on planting lilies, I have a gap in info in that area. Maybe some of the old threads can help along those lines as well. I will check them out.

Bill D.

Edit: Lots of good info in the old threads on both plants and how to plant. Thanks again ewest. You are the man!

I also thank u guys for the help.
Tracy

Who else is running the roads picking up Christmas trees in the front yards for your ponds? I talked my wife into riding with me while I scrounged for trees along streets of Shreveport. She saw a futon in one of the yards, where it was put for the garbage collectors to pick up. And she wanted me to get it, ha I told her we were getting trees and this was not Sanford and Son's. I plan on picking up at least 10 to 20 Christmas trees this weekend. Surely, I am not the only pond guy doing this. Adding cover for my CNBG and Fatheads.

TGW1,
I picked up 5 and carried them out to the farm. With the structure that I already have...that should be plenty (3/4 acre pond ~12' tapering to 8', then to 3'. I even considered cutting them in half for use in shallower water...not sure what I will do. I'll ask the PB folks for suggestions.
Charlie

Hey Charlie,

I was thinking about cutting some in half as well, but I read in one of the threads just to lay them down in shallower water.

Bill

Bill,
these trees are easily 5' in diameter...not sure how shallow I could place them without cutting them down or back.
C

TGW1,
...my wife is not invited on this type of excursion for the same reason...
C