In an open unpressurized tank to a well pump? When the float drops to a certain level in the tank the well pump kicks on to fill it again to a certain level. Remember the tank is open (actually a lined pit) and not pressurized. I'm sure this is done in irrigation and cattle tanks?

I will be dropping my 45 gpm flow to 2gpm or less to raise twice as many pounds of trout in an indoor recirculating system vs. the outdoor pond, but don't want to change out the well pump. Would like to expand the present 6 X 6 X 3 feet deep lined pit that the well dumps into to make it large enough that the 2 gpm only kicks on every 24 hours.

Not sure what start up amperage is but I think running amps of the well pump is 20 amps if I remember right.

Btw for my fellow hoosiers, according to a state political source I am privy too, Indiana legislators want to come up with a "water plan" in the not too distant future. Could be anything from new permits to water use fees. Fortunately the farm looby is strong here but I'll keep you posted.

I have two float switches and electric valves in my non-pressurized de-gassing tank for our home water, I can only assume they are readily available.

Are they expensive?

From what I see, they are cheap. Standard PVC electric valve activated by the float switch. A glorified larger potty linear float activates a mechanical sealed switch.

One type you simply tie the wire onto a post in such a way that when full, the float is wire-down, and low, wire-up.

http://www.essentialhardware.com/product_detail.php?pid=226451&gclid=CJyP6o_5t7sCFew7MgoddTEAoQ Cheap enough!

At farm stores you can get mechanical float valves for cattle tanks.

We have used them in 1500 gallon plastic storage tanks that we use as surge tanks to fill our ag sprayer out of. We removed the lid of the tank and installed one of these valves on the lid at the desired water level (full but not so full as to run out the lid). The water flows through the valve till the tank is full and the water is cut off. Once we fill out of the tank and the water drops the valve allows the tank to refill. Standard garden hose screws into the valve.

That way no one has to babysit the tanks while they are filling. We have used a couple different types of these valves and generally speaking the better ones that cost a little more are more dependable and last longer. Farm stores have them in stock around here.

Depending on your flow needs, a bathroom stool tank float valve might also work.

Edit: I misunderstood the question. I thought he already had a working water system and only needed to control the water level in an open tank. I see now he was wanting to switch a pump on and off.

Thank you gentleman. Just realized something: my present 4 inch buried PVC outlet is set up for surface overflow from the pit.That gave me an oh crap moment until I remembered even though the feed is at the surface, the actual pipe is a good 3 feet down, so when I replace the epdm liner (which has a small leak) I can rig up a surface AND bottom outlet.

If I only had a outlet at the surface a float valve would be a waste of time. LOL

Something to think about while your getting your pit straightened out.

How reliable will this have to function?

Would it be OK if the pump didn't kick in to fill the pit once it reached it's low level?

Well it wouldn't be a catastrophe right away as the flow from the well will only be 2 gallons per minute or less and the system will be about 4400 gallons the first year and 8400 the second year.

This is for the benefit of others here as you probably know this Phil: It's a recirc but uses a low continuous flow from the well to keep temps down and as make up water. Unfortunately that's one of the downsides to coldwater fish in a recirc as in keeping temps down and the water as clean of suspended solids as possible. Salmonids don't tolerate nitrates as well as other species either. Therefore more water exchange is needed than other species.

What about a float switch from a pedestal style sump pump?I actually have one that isn't that old.The pump ingested something and we replaced the whole unit.You are welcome to it for the cost of shipping.The unit I have is quite similar to this one here http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General...t-Pump-VS-P2800 I think it would be fairly easy to mount the guide rod to the edge of the tank along with the switch.

I've been watching this myself.

http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=120&ArticleID=72176

And here: http://chestertontribune.com/Environment/indiana_lawmakers_and_advocates.htm

Thanks Tony! Well meaning people but I hope they base their decisions on good science and not a knee jerk reaction. The way the articles read to me the water supply is the same throughout the state. Couldn't be more wrong.

Tony did you know that the South Bend area was once a prehistoric canyon that has been filled with glacial till and has lots and lots of ground water - the most in the state? Then in parts of southern Indiana we have folks sucking water out of cracks in rock at 10 to fifteen gallons a minute if they are lucky.

On the other hand I've seen local farmers pump irrigation water while it's raining. Granted they probably need to get their soil moisture levels up and can't wait on the rain, but it's bad PR to the general public. Even a friend who is pretty much a liberatarian is up in arms about it. I jokingly asked him if he is only libretarian when it suits him. LOL

These are curious times for sure, Cecil. And somewhat frightening.

Prehistoric canyon filled with glacial till huh? I guess there wasn't enough material left over to level out our hills and hollers down this way!

Did the glaciers even go that far south?

Almost. Stopped just north of here a little ways.

Really appreciate the offer but I will pass as I need more information and don't want to hook anything up that might damage my well pump.

Thank you very much for the offer!

Not a problem,just figured I'd make the offer.Chances are JKB or one of the other electrical gurus will have a solution for what you are looking for.If not,next time you are at Lowes or Home Depot etc take a look at how the float system works on this style sump.I think it would be pretty easy to use this style float setup to run a switch that suits your pump.

I suggested to Cecil, in a PM, that he get's some local "Professional" input.

20 bucks won't cover it! Think a few grand, at minimum, for this to be proper.

For a float that tells an electric pump it's down so far and to kick on, and then off again with it comes back up? Seriously?



Never said anything about a 20 dollar switch. Not sure where that came from.

You have my PM reply.

Good Luck!

Cecil, the $ is in direct correlation to the well pump motor size. A $20 switch rated for a 1/3 hp 120v motor isn't the same as one rated for a 5 hp 220v motor. It may be less $$ than what JKB is talking about, but I'd rather prepare the client for the worst case (money wise) and come in under budget than way over budget.

There's probably cheap ways to do it, but there's no guarantee that the pump motor won't fry.

Just like a clients waterfall/stream pump. The old one stopped working and he wanted a bigger pump for more flow. Sure, I said, but you're going to have to upgrade the wiring going to the pond. O.K. he said, I'll have an electrician out here (his brother). I told him that I thought he should go with at least 10 ga, but 8 ga would be better, but to have the electrician do the calculations to be sure. $1,100 for a 13,600 gph pump. It lasted just shy of 2 years. He's feeding it with a little over 100' of 14 ga wire. (120v) (He didn't tell the electrician that there would be 2 hp on that circuit.)

This year he added a Kasco surface agitator to the same outlet, and the waterfall pump failed. Previously, the outlet wasn't working, but somehow there was still power getting out there. The electrician that was called out said that he had to turn the breaker off, then uncover the whole wire run and let it cool because the dirt was too hot to move with his bare hands.

All the electrician did was fix the "no electric" problem, but didn't upgrade the wires because he wasn't told the load that would be on them.

Just another thought.

I misread the original question and assumed he already had a working pressure system and just wanted to supply water to an open tank. That would be no different than a bathroom stool, which is an open tank with a float valve. Now I see where he wants to switch a pump on and off to control the fill.

Another avenue might be to just go ahead and install a pressure tank with associated pump switch so you have a real water system. Then Cecil would have water supply at any tap point he wanted.

Then a simple float valve would control the water to his open tank, but he could add any number of valves/circuits in the future very simply. Good for future projects.

If he is trying to turn on and off a 2 horsepower pump to only supply a few gpm, that is akin to filling up your tea glass with a fire hose. Cycling that big of pump each time a small amount of water is not going to be economical electric wise or good for the life of the pump motor, IMO.

Am I off base here?

Phil,

You're reading something in my posts that is not there. I never ever questioned your knowledge about these types of things and wish I had half have the knowledge you have with electronics etc. Sure I kid you a little bit about your love of gadgets/instruments etc. and the fact that you haven't got your system up and running yet, but it's just a that -- nothing more.

I just made the statement that 2 grand seems a little excessive for something like this. But then I could very well be wrong as I don't know squat in your area of expertise.

I would miss your input here if you stayed angry at me. You're a really smart guy and you probably roll your eyes at my posts but that's why I ask. I'm not the smartest guy but I usually figure things out eventually by asking, researching, and getting as much information I can. And I'm not afraid to hire someone if it's over my head. And believe it or not I'm not one that goes on the cheap and dangerous. But if I can DIY I will.

No idea as I don't know squat in this area. LOL Hence why I was asking JKB and others if they had ever heard of the set up I was interested in. Thanks for your response. I was hoping I'd get lucky and someone was already doing this with a irrigation system or something, and it would just be a matter of relaying the info to an electrician.

I'd rather steer away from a pressure tank as it would have to be very large or several in a series to not have the pump kick on so often. Even with my home well it's bad enough with two large pressure tanks as the pump seems to be kicking on all the time.

My thoughts were to make the reservoir large enough (in this case a lined pit which I have now but smaller) so that the pump only kicks on every 24 hours to fill up the pit when it goes down far enough. Flow would still be 45 gpm from the well pump but it would only have to kick on once a day. There would be a gravity flow off the pit at 2 gpm 24/7. The pit will be about 5 feet above in elevation of the water exit into the pole building, which will be farther down the property. The discharge from the pit will be low enough that there will be discharge as long as there is water in the pit. Discharge can be regulated with a gate valve at the exit point. Or perhaps another type of valve as I'm finding gate valves aka knive valves eventually leak. Perhaps two valves as a back up in case one fails.

Cecil, maybe talk to the plastic tank company. Run the calculations and get a tank that has enough capacity to hold 24 hr worth of water. Put the level switch in there, and it only kicks on once per day when the water gets low enough. IIRC if you have an open pit, and only exchange the water once a day, it might bring in unwanted bugs/frogs or be an area where mosquito's lay their eggs.

In my opinion, (which should be understood is not based on any great amount of electrical experience), there should be a way to accomplish this for reasonable money. If it were mine, and I was doing it for myself, I think I could come up with a system that would work reliably, and safely. There's certainly nothing wrong with using top of the line components, engineered for exactly this type of application. But I really believe that other options exist that would perform the same function for less $$$$

I simply don't believe that there are always, only two ways of doing things...the right way, and the cheap way. There is often a middle ground to be found with a little digging.

Safety first, always. You're dealing with electricity and water. But many items have dual functionality, or will perform well in applications never envisioned by their designer. Thinking outside the box has produced excellent results for me in the past...with a few failures to be sure.

Research and experiment. I would begin by verifying your pump specs.

Makes sense Scott but I'd prefer to steer clear of a plastic tank for two reasons:

1. Even at 2 gpm for 24 hours, it would have to be a big expensive tank to have enough volume to only have to kick the well on every 24 hrs. 120 gallons an hour x 24 = . Probably cheaper to dig a pit 3 feet deep by 6 or 8 feet wide by whatever length needed and put in a liner. I could dig it by hand, and I do need some fill to build up a drop in slope in the same area.

2. If it was above ground in a tank the water would warm up in the summer vs. below ground in a liner.

As far critters I've got a nice cover now for the 6X6X3 pit made of a wood framework and plastic mesh that works good for keeping out the larger critters. I'll probably enclose it anyway with a frame construction insulation and slanted roof with a vent tube to vent off Co2.

Thanks for the clarification of the system Cecil.

If your pump already has a electric contactor a smaller size relay could control it. If your pump is turned on with a manual contactor or a big knife switch then as has been said, a contactor switch with adequate rating (probably a NEMA 1 contactor) would be needed to keep from burning out a switch not designed to handle the load. Often the switch on any float mechanism is a relatively low power device and it controls a larger switch that actually turns the large load (your pump)on and off.

One comment about your pressure tanks for your house and the pump kicking on and off often. We used a well pump and pressure tank for probably the first 40 years of my life. If those pressure tanks get "waterlogged" the pump will kick on every time you open a faucet. Easy to tell if you have a pressure gage on the system. If when a faucet is opened the pressure drops rapidly, the tanks are full of water and do not have the proper air gap in the top of them to maintain pressure till the tank drops about half the gallonage of the tank.

Just something to check.

Thanks snrub. Actually I may have been exaggerating how often it kicks on. My point was I didn't want the aquaculture well to kick on more than once a day.

Thank for the good information. I'll keep that mind when I hire an electrician!

A person that catches fish exaggerate?

Surely not.

Hmmm... Just dawned on me there may be a very cheap and effective solution: since the flow from the pit is gravity fed and the flow rate can be set with a valve, why not calculate the time it takes to drain the pit to a determined low level? Then use that time interval to set a timer to turn on the pump when that time interval is passed? And also set the timer to turn the well back off at the full mark of the pit?

Thoughts?

Hey Phil (JKB) I know you're peeking and rolling your eyes!

I think that as long as the drain/fill times remained a constant, it would probably work.....but, I wouldn't do it if it were me. I would want the pump on/off circuit actuated by something more directly influenced by the water level itself, rather than elapsed time.

I still like the float idea, and I still believe it could be accomplished safely and reliably without taking out a second mortgage. It just seems to me to be the best fit for the situation at hand.

Oh Cecil, that's just silly unless you programmed in some AI that knew what it was doing

Talked to Scott, and we got your butt covered if you ever do this. Not mad at you either

Nice to hear your not mad at me!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year dude! Looks like it will be white up there.

You're probably right but we shall see.

The worst thing that could happen with the timer is the well could continue to flow when not needed, or not start up. Which either way if caught in a reasonable amount of time would not be a disaster, as in flooding or no water -- since the system is a recirculating system and would have an overflow.

All I know is I want to get away from using 64,800 gpd to produce 500 lbs. of trout in 2 years! It's profitable but a terrible waste of ground water! And as we talked about with our state coming up with a "water plan" it could get interesting in the next few years.

Cecil, just pipe it over to my pond. Problem solved.

You do the Roman Aquaduct thinky and it's yours.

Here ya go Cecil. A complete pump control rig, (including floats) and easy to hook up. Pump Control

It's made by SJE-Rhombus out of Minnesota, who is a major name in the industry, and it's Listed UL508!!!

If you had someone build this, it would easily cost you about 2K. Same thing I was talking to esshup about, but this also has an alarm if something goes wrong.

For 530 bucks, ya can't beat it!

Thanks Phil. I'll consider that an option.

You da man!

It's the best option I have found that is UL508, unless you want me to Triik it out for ya

What does UL508 mean?

It means that you will have something proper.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a safety standard? I hope it means it won't leak current if it gets wet, etc.

Just have to look it up! Nothing to do with being wet or leaking current.

I worked with pumps and float systems all the time when i was underground.

Our de-watering system was cascade style coming up form 5000 feet below the surface, I forget how far below sea level we were there.

Some sumps would pump down 4 foot before shutting off and others we would only pump down a foot and a half.

How much drop are you planning haveing to start your pump??


The floats worked great but the water was...?? Hard. for lack of a better work. and growths and erosion and rust, such would give us troubles.

The in ground lined pit will only be about 3 feet deep. 3 X 8 X 16. I'm thinking the pump should kick on somewhere close to the bottom and kick off somewhere near the top. My water is very hard at about 550 ppm. I have to remove scaling from my stainless steel heaters every 6 months in the recirculating aquaculture tank.

The idea is to have it kick on only about once every 24 hours to keep wear and tear down on the well pump. This is based on the volume of the tank and a flow of about 2 gpm.

Another option is a timer and I see Lowes sells a timer that is rated for 220 which is the well voltage.

Weighing out all the options and will hire a professional to do it right.

I will try and catch a name brand and price from a friend.

Our environment and water conditions were far from normal (110*F and all the extras in the water from mine tailings, synide, solids, and other funny colored things) but the biggest wear on our pumps was shutting them on and off. Once a day is a good goal!I think.

Cecil, which timer at Lowes?

I went thru everything they had and did not see one rated for a motor load.

One thing unknown here, is your well pump a 2 wire or 3 wire?

You mentioned that there is no control box, so that would indicate a 2 wire pump.

The odd duck part of this is you mentioned on several occasions that the pump is 2-1/2 HP. I haven't been able to find one in current offerings. Maybe need to verify that on your end.

BTW: Your supply is probably close to 240 volts if it is modern. Definition of modern, depending on location and power company could be >30 years ago.

Most common would be 120/240/480 supply, so you could run the 115/230/460 volt stuff (which is standard) with allowable voltage drop thru your wiring and still keep your devices performing well. The 110/220/440 scheme is still around for supply, as with others, but not very common.

Europe is all going 3 phase. Build a new house, and they'll pipe in 3 phase. Quite a few household appliances and systems run off 3 phase.

We only do rich peoples houses with true 3 phase service. 60K estimate to run true 3 phase to my property from about 3/4 mile. Not gonna happen! I'll get a rebate if someone else taps into it, but that won't happen! Not up in red neck land! I can do the 2 transformer setup with simulated 3 phase from the lines on the poles for about 12K, but no point in that. They'll drop 240V at 400 amps for free! Hence, using VFD's for motor operation.

JKB,

Not sure of all those questions you're asking; I'll have to do some checking. You're the expert and I'm Charlie Brown when it comes to electricity and engineering.

My dad worked with electricity for 21 years after retiring from the military (I & R local telephone company and Sprint) so he's done a few things around here for me. However he's not afraid to tell me to hire an electrician when it's above his pay grade, as in when I get a propane powered generator backup system hooked up for the house, apartment above the garage, and my pole building coldwater recirc system.

I'll have to find the link to the Lowe's switch. Someone posted it on the Koiphen website.

BTW some really cool stuff going on over there with some in depth discussion on airlifts. One contractor has done some testing with various submergence depths, pipe diameters, and air flow rates and has charted various flows achieved. He says he's come up with his own manifold that blows the U.K. Yambuki airlifts the British use to shame. He's sending me one to do some testing and compare to the some Yamabuki manifolds I'll be building.

Hopefully I can get a tank to do the testing in that is deep enough at a good price from the local plastic tank manufacturer that sells me tanks at a discount. Optimum depth is supposed to be about 65 inches.

It is best to get someone local that deals with the JHA's and understands their flaws. JHA's in some areas are like inbred Gestapo agent's that wield authority, but have no clue as to WTF they are doing! Yet, they can muck up the works. Gub employees

There is no optimum depth for an air lift. It's all about the requirements for the current task at hand. What you need!!!

Air lifts can be built and employed with unlimited head! Geyser pumps are more controllable tho.

Let me restate that: For the aquaculture purposes I have in mind, and for the greatest efficiency -- after testing by those that have been experimenting with various diameter PVC and different sign air pumps -- 1.75 meters (65 inches) seems to be optimum.

You can use all the air you want but there comes a point where you're using so much power you might as well go to a water pump.

The thing I and others are trying to achieve is using the least amount of energy to move water around a system at the quantities we are interested in.

Understand where you are coming from Cecil, but there is plenty engineering information on air lifts. Unfortunately, you have to pay for most of it.

Air lift's are not "new" and have been around for over 100 years. There are many industries, world wide, that use air lift's. Air lift's are the second most used type of pump in the Aquaculture industry. Sea water systems use air lift's because of the corrosive nature of sea water.

Pressure = Power. The deeper you go, the more power you'll need. You can almost 5X the flow of an air lift just by doubling the size of the pipe, whereas you would have to go 10X deeper with higher pressure to achieve the same flow in the smaller pipe.

I'm sure you'll figure out something, and am not knocking this in any way, just that I'll trust the engineering info.

Air lift's are not a one size fit's all type of device. Nice thing is they are cheap!!!

If you haven't connected the dot's, almost everything in the Aquaculture Industry comes from the water/waste water industry.

Naah. No need to pay for it. Don't need anything industrial scale. I'll try a couple of types of DIY manifolds and pressure chambers with different pipe sizes and use what works best for my application. I'm in the process of locating a tank I can do my testing in.



Try over 200 years; was invented by Carl Emmanuel Loscher in 1797.



Yeah I knew that too...




You couldn't prove that by me. I have yet to see a fresh water recirculating system that is run on air lifts and I've seen quite a few including multimillion dollar systems. But if you say so.



I guess I'm not aware of any sea water systems in Indiana. So there aren't water pumps that are made to withstand corrosion?



Don't want to use more power; I want to use less. That's my main impetus for designing a system that runs on air lifts.

And yes diameter of the pipe is one of the parameters, but remember I don't need industrial scale power at industrial scale power consumption.



I always do.



Nothing in this world is one size fits all. Nothing.



I knew that from my waste water class in fisheries science before you were born. Dude really? You didn't think I knew that? It's in all the recirculating texts.

Your funny

I try to be.

I'm also OCD when it comes to grammar, hence why I corrected your use of your (sic) vs. you're.

Sorry can't help myself!

My Ipad drives me crazy 'cause I don't notice typo errors until after I come back and read the thread again!

Grammar police

Yeah, you've mentioned a mental disorder on a few occasions. Everyone has their quirks

That's for sure!

Hey you'll never guess what I'm writing about right now for our next aquaculture association newsletter. Should I quote you on any of your posts?

You can write anything you want!

Sorry it took so long.



Here is the site to Sulzer's float triggers but I cant find a price.

http://www.sulzer.com/en/Products-and-Se...Float-Switch-KS

Similar products that give lots of varying depth control run around $100 for dual float system. The top float starts it and the bottom float stops it.

Thanks fishm n!

It's just a signaling device.

dit-dot-dash?

29 bucks.

Automation Direct




Esshup, those blue switches I gave you list at about 100.00 each for 1. I have about 25 more. What to do with all those dang level switches??? Have about 60 of the other ones, and I'll never use them