Just put HBG in October of last year with CC. Put HSB and YP about a month ago. I was hoping the CC,HSB,and YP could keep them in check. Worried my HSB won't be big enough yet to get the job done. They were under 5 inches and the YP were between 6 and 10. What should I do? Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKtOjKOpQE&list=UUtsKh7PcjwdZIzWlkTRYkyQ&index=1
What size HBG did you stock in October?
How about putting in one larger LMB?
2 inch HBG and 6-8 inch CC.
How about putting in one larger LMB?
That might work. I wish I could sex them. I would throw in a few. I'm afraid they would prob just hammer the fatheads though. I did notice the fatheads were hammering the beds. I'm guessing they are eating the eggs.
Looks like you have lots of spawning habbitat!!
How new is the pond?
Just started filling in October after a do over regarding a leak.
Can you lay your hands on some larger HSB? I wouldn't panic though....just because the males build nests doesn't mean they are about to get out of control.....technically, there shouldn't many ladies present, and the boys are just going through the motions, mostly for nought.
They were 2" in Oct of last year, and they're spawning now?
Yes. I don't know what they were eating in that newly filled pond all winter but some look to be over 5 inches. If I get a chance ill try to catch a few tomorrow. I noticed while feeding there is only one fish on each nest. They stand up on tail and fan the clay out. I didn't even think about the males just doing their thing. Makes since. Is it normal for HBG to grow that fast. My pond never fully iced over and melted every day with all the black pond dye I put in it in fall. Thanks spark.
I think it would be hard for them to spawn this quick. Was the pond drained completely down and killed off?
Are you sure you did not get some BG mixed in with your HBG?
Like sprkplug said they should be mostly male and just doing their thing.
How big are the new spawn you see, maybe they were just some slow growers from your stocking.
I think it would be hard for them to spawn this quick. Was the pond drained completely down and killed off?
Are you sure you did not get some BG mixed in with your HBG?
Like sprkplug said they should be mostly male and just doing their thing.
How big are the new spawn you see, maybe they were just some slow growers from your stocking.
Yes and completely drained and lined with 18 inches of clay. Not sure on anything being mixed. If i get some free time this afternoon I'm going to try to catch a few and get pics. Last pics I showed people were iffy on their genetics. Have not seen any spawn except what I believe are FHM fry. They are everywhere. I think I just panicked when I seen all the beds encircling my whole pond.
So you are more concerned there are beds not that you have actually seen HBG fry.
No HBG fry. Crapload of FHM is all I've seen. I just walked out to pond and there was one heck of a turf war going on. Those HBG are like little heat seeking torpedos bombing the others. Every bed had one fish on it today.
Do these look like quality HBG?
they look to be very healthy!! smaller eyes, large forehead, and looks as though they have some girth.
The coloring is Beautiful!! Most of our HBG look more like GSF.
they look to be very healthy!! smaller eyes, large forehead, and looks as though they have some girth.
The coloring is Beautiful!! Most of our HBG look more like GSF.
That's a sigh of relief. Last time people were unsure. Is 2 inches to 5 inches a good start since October?
Spark, do any of these look like females? Nothing but AM for my babies.
They look great....outstanding growth through the winter period. It's hard to tell when they are smaller, but I think your first photo MIGHT be a female.....don't panic, I'm just going by coloration and opercular tab shape....very hard to tell.
Just tell yourself that you WILL have some females present. It's unavoidable in this situation. Keep all vegetation and cover to an absolute minimum, and you might throw a few LMB in there to help you sleep better at night. Single sex Bass would be nice, but I don't worry about it....they'll eat their own offspring also, and I see VERY little LMB recruitment in my pond....simply not enough forage for a population of LMB.
Ok thanks. I'm trying to learn to sex them to cull every time I catch one. I'm going to just catch one bass and throw in with them unless I can figure out how to sex them. I wish you could buy single sex LMB.
If the LMB in your area are still on the nest, or are guarding the newly hatched LMB fry, you can be assured that the ones you catch are males. If you see 2 LMB on the nest, then all bets are off on which sex you catch.
Also I did gill hook one and it was bleeding pretty bad. Have feeling he will a floater this morning. What is the best kind of hook to catch these things while trying to prevent mortality. I was using a long shank. Always ignored these types of fish all my life because they never got big in the rivers around me. We only ever caught them for trot line bait. Never even knew a bluegill would get that big until I found this website and forum. Can't wait to take my daughter out to catch one of these. She is only 14 months right now so they should be pretty nice sized at that time.
If the LMB in your area are still on the nest, or are guarding the newly hatched LMB fry, you can be assured that the ones you catch are males. If you see 2 LMB on the nest, then all bets are off on which sex you catch.
Awesome Esshup. Off to the local ponds to check.
Use a 1" or <2" Curly tail grub on a small mini jig. White works very well for visibility. Use polarized glasses. When you see the white disappear, set the hook, don't wait until you feel the bite. I use 1/100th or 1/80th oz. jigheads. I've found them in Cabelas.
90% of the time I use them unpainted. Thread the curly tail grub on the hook, aligning the seam mark in the grub with the bend of the hook. I prefer to have the curly tail going straight up. If it's to one side or the other, the jig will swim to the left or the right, depending which way you missed threading it on perfectly "up".
I've found that Mr. Twister brand of scented curly tails and mini-crawfish outfish the Berkley power baits by a small margin, but both outfish the non-scented versions by a large margin. If you can find them, the mini-crawfish and nymphs seem to outfish the curly tail grubs.
Use a 1" or <2" Curly tail grub on a small mini jig. White works very well for visibility. Use polarized glasses. When you see the white disappear, set the hook, don't wait until you feel the bite. I use 1/100th or 1/80th oz. jigheads. I've found them in Cabelas.
90% of the time I use them unpainted. Thread the curly tail grub on the hook, aligning the seam mark in the grub with the bend of the hook. I prefer to have the curly tail going straight up. If it's to one side or the other, the jig will swim to the left or the right, depending which way you missed threading it on perfectly "up".
I've found that Mr. Twister brand of scented curly tails and mini-crawfish outfish the Berkley power baits by a small margin, but both outfish the non-scented versions by a large margin. If you can find them, the mini-crawfish and nymphs seem to outfish the curly tail grubs.
I'll try that. When I was a kid we would take a plain rappla minnow and put a splitshot just above knot. Then set it on the bed. It looked just like a minnow trying to eat the eggs. Seemed like we caught quite a few like that.
That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of that??
What I said about the curly tail grubs was meant to refer to BG and HBG, not LMB, although I've caught some 3# and 4# LMB on that bait and 2# test line. (Yes George1, I realize that in hot Texas waters, it might stress the fish, but these fish were destined for hot oil.
)
Oh, sorry about that. It does work for bass around here though. Ill try what you mentioned on my HBG. I really don't want to kill anymore of my juvenile fish and most certainly not a (dreaming big) trophy one day.
Crap! I'm pretty sure I observed some baby bluegill swimming with my fatheads a few minutes ago. Ill set a minnow trap and hope for the best. Fingers crossed. I may have no choice but release some LMB. I really wanted to keep them out of the picture.
If you have HBG, I think you can control the YOY with HSB.
Do you think my 6 to 8 inch HSB will take care of it. I put 28 in the pond. I have a minnow trap now set. It instantly was filling with FHM. Hopefully I was just seeing the dark colored FHM. Most of them are orange with the exception of some dark colored ones and albinos.
They are covered in vertical stripes.
I'll let someone else do the I.D. I'm more familiar with the larger ones.
They look like regular old bluegill to me. They definately arent green sunfish. Wait for a response from BC.
I'm trying to get some hd video to load right now. It shows better detail.
They look like BG or HBG to me, but it's hard to tell. You said there are "thousands"? There wasn't much in the vid or photos for scale, but they appeared large for a 6" HSB to control...did you find any larger HSB to stock when the water cools off?
I know you don't want LMB.... but they do a pretty good job.
They were all different sizes. I would say the biggest being 1.25". The whole minnow trap filled up with them. I could not believe my eyes. They were attacking the stale Melba chips like piranha. They were schooled all around minnow trap eating the stuff that came out. I bet there was 300 in that Minnow trap. I executed them all on the back of dam. I know I have HBG but I'm guessing my supplier might of sucked and had regular bluegill mixed with them. Looking like the large mouth is going to be my only option. Did you notice the red eyes on some of them. I think they might be evil.
Yes and after walking circle around pond I would say there are thousands easy. Crazy! There not even a year old.
Jwwann-
Would you rather have smallies?? They're not the ideal sunfish control agent, but in a pond with little cover, if you get a pretty good population of breeding adults, and aren't afraid to do the heavy lifting yourself on the 4-8" bg that the smallies can't eat, they might work. I'm not suggesting they'd do the job that LMB would, but I wouldn't say that LMB are the ONLY option.
This was the truck I purchased from. They were selling CNB also. I hope they didn't mix them in with my HBG. I wouldn't think the CNB would of survived the winter here, but the pond never froze more than a day.
That might be an option Yolk. My pond is also filled with FHM so I'm afraid the HBG might be looked over. I have some serious reproduction from my FHM. I should be able to walk on them by fall. Here is another video of these things outside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdbIf6C38dk
If you decide to do smallies and need some-PM me in the next couple days, I'm draining a pond.......I watched some 10" SMB actually go up on the bank chasing yoy BG this evening, then have to flip themselves back in the pond.
However, you're probably right about the FHM.....
Thanks for the offer Yolk, but I work weekends and my wife works days. I'm pretty tied with my baby girl on my days off. I actually had her in my arms while trapping and making videos today. That's why everything is so shaky. I can catch some smallies out of the creek that runs through my town if I decide to go that route. Seems like I've always heard SMB can't control BG. Will the LMB terrorize my YP? Man this really throws a monkey wrench in things. Dad-gummit!
I wouldn't toss in LMB quite yet. Large mouth (to me), anal fin white (or light colored) margin says to me that there is some GSF in the mix. Now, a GSF is half of a HBG, so I wouldn't panic just yet.
Think about HSB and SMB. If they don't control them, then you can always add LMB, but if you drop in LMB from the get-go, you can never turn back.
Trap all you can, even see about running a seine thru there once or twice. Or, get a small Fyke Net. You'd be amazed at how many fish you can remove with one.
I going to give it the weekend to think about it and maybe see what others have to say. I have always wanted SMB. How bad do they reproduce in ponds? I have a very clay rocky bottom. Pretty much what you see in video at pond edge. I don't think they would eat my YP as bad either. I have 4 minnow traps and a nice seine. I'm going on a mission starting tomorrow. Thanks guys.
Is there any such thing as the perfect pond? I don't want this to stress me out, so unless somebody can give me any reason to not try the smallies first I'm going to go that route. Besides clay rock piles there is no cover in pond. Thanks Yolk and Scott.
Am I wrong, or could the large amounts of FHM in the pond be keeping the predators that are in there from eating the small gills? Once the FHM decline in numbers, won't the focus be on what's left to eat, thus in future years the problem my not be so bad? Possibly pull back on the amount of feed to force it?
Once the predators get larger than 12" or so then the FHM will be too small to be a preferred food.
And wouldn't that make them not interested in that size gills too? Or is the thinking to let the gills get slightly bigger than the FHM, then they get hammered by larger fish?
Is there any such thing as the perfect pond?
No way!
And the human condition being what it is, even if it was perfect NOW, our idea of perfection would change....
[This is what I keep telling my wife, as we age...she still thinks I'm full of crap, but she seems to appreciate the effort.]
And wouldn't that make them not interested in that size gills too? Or is the thinking to let the gills get slightly bigger than the FHM, then they get hammered by larger fish?
They'll outgrow the FHM pretty quickly, and they will occupy more open water as they get older.
Went to the creek today and I have another question. What size SMB should I be targeting. I had 30 minutes free and got a nice 10 incher and spotted a beatiful 2 to 3 pounder in a hole that he can't really leave without a flood. I didn't go after since I think it might be a little large for its purpose, but it there for the taking. It had some beatiful markings. Another question. With the HSB present in pond how many SMB do you think I need. I was thinking 10 maybe. I released the one 10 incher in pond. Thanks.
Hmmmm, you need the pro's advice on gap size of each type of fish to be certain.
The simple answer would be go as big as you can, until they might be the size that could eat your stocker YP, HBG. I would think that a 10" SMB "might" eat 1/3 its size, so that leaves your current spawn as nice snacks, but your stockers safe. I don't think you could go smaller than this to be efficient.
Got a another 45 min to go fishing in the creek. Got 3 more. So I'm at 4 now.
Ill go get some more Monday. They were around 10 or 12 inches.
Hey Jwwann, if you get the chance it would be interesting to measure the gap and length of those. Then measure your little BG and see their size. Then you'll know for sure what is needed.
Those look like perfect yoy eating machines. I'd put in as many as you can catch....they'll not be hard to remove once the BG/HBG are under control, if you decide you don't want so many.
WRT what size BG they'll eat-I don't think a SMB will tackle a BG anywhere near 1/3rd its length. I've spent hours watching mine, and have fed them hundreds of BG. I don't know of a simple rule for predicting size they'll eat, but it's much smaller than LMB.
It's been interesting to watch larger [3-4#] SMB take injured BG on the surface. Once the BG get in the neighborhood of 3.5-4", the smallies seem to become much more methodical and careful. They'll swim up to the BG, sometimes circling it a couple times, then slurp it down head first. I'm thinking it's because they're more sensative to the sharp fins on a BG than LMB are, but that's just a guess. BG smaller than that, they just grab any which way.
Yolk, are you saying it takes about a 3# or more SMB to eat a 4" BG?
I too think its way smaller than 1/3, but didn't want to risk being wrong. I bet TJ would have a good feel for this, or BC.
If I had few hours free I could catch a crap load that size. Ill get out the tape measure if I get free time Monday to catch more. I removed 78 more YOY HBG from trap today. My giant SMB I thought was trapped was not present on second trip. He is hiding somewhere though. After I let the SMB loose I made a cast while I had a pole handy. My HSB are around 8 inches judging by this one.
Yolk, are you saying it takes about a 3# or more SMB to eat a 4" BG?
No, I'm not exactly sure how big a smallie would have to be to take a 4" BG, just that as the BG get larger, the SMB seem much more cautious-and that in my pond, that seems to start at about 4". Less than that, game's on, and the BG are voraciously preyed upon.
I haven't experimented with exactly how large a BG they'll take, but probably should.
The smallies Jwwann is putting in should be perfect for BG the size he's showing.....
Beautiful fish-you've got yourself some YOY eating machines.
Thanks for posting the pics.
I've noticed a lot of color variation in my smb-but I think, under the right circumstances, your large fish could show the "brown camo" pattern the younger ones do. I notice them changing back and forth sometimes when I keep them caged for a while.
I was pond side this evening feeding fish. I noticed one of the pesky HBG spawn nibbling on a piece of AM600 in about a foot of water by himself 3 foot in front of me. My blood was starting to boil a little when out of nowhere one of the SMB took him out with some top water action. It was awesome. I'll never forget that moment. It was great!
Now you need to change your title to something like this: "HBG spawn! What fun adventures will this turn into?".
I love it when the pond gives you these moments. If we only knew what will be.....
Right on! I think these wild SMB are better predators not being feed trained then the HSB. I think I'm starting to notice a decline in FHM already too. It could all be in my head though.
Try trapping some of the HBG minnows when they get around 1-1.25" long, hook em' lightly, suspend them below a float and try your luck. Nothing like reducing the biomass while catching big HBG at the same time......
I tell you what, I'm glad it was sugested to add those SMB. They have become my new favorite in pond. The F2 HBG and minnows come to surface nibbling on aquamax not knowing what is waiting in the depths. Then the SMB come to surface with some crazy top water action and take them out. Always out of the corner of my eye though. They are sneaky like that. I can't wait to add some more. Thanks Yolk,esshup, and everybody else for helping me get through this ordeal. All those YOY HBG had me scared bad. I still see a few but nothing like before. Thanks guys.
SMB are my favorite freshwater fish. They are beautiful and they fight like tigers.
Beautiful fish JWann!
Just look at that bulge in the lateral line
Had to google lateral line. I now see what your talking about. Never noticed it before. I take it a curved line is better?
Good looking fish...gonna'be some bruisers!
Just got back in from feeding. Somehow I managed to kill one of the 7 inchers. That sucks. I used a #8 plain shank hook. It was quite windy today and the first one I hooked pretty deeply. I bent barbs down and hook came right out. Who knows, but he's a floater now.
It happens, that is why you have hundreds to work with...
I'm just wondering were I'm going to source my next generation of HBG and HSB. It hard to place such small orders and I'm very leery of fish trucks after that last fiasco. Mabe I can catch Rainman passing through again sometime. I need to start thinking about a grow out cage too.
This seems to be my day for offering up theories and ideas that have no evidence or proof to substantiate them, but I believe that HBG may succumb due to C&R far easier than native BG. I will find a floater or two a few days after nearly every outing now, even when I know that none were hooked deep, or otherwise injured.
I also believe that the condition is worse when the water temps are higher, and when the fish are larger/older.
In your case Jwwann, the fish was probably injured from the deep hookset. I didn't have any troubles with unusual morts until the fish got some size/age to them.
Spark when your growing fish like that your theories and ideas are always welcome.
Found a pic of another YP caught today.
Every time I'm researching HBG I come across pics of Bruce. He must have stakes in bing and google. Look at this thing.
I know, right? Bruce's fish always seem to make the first page on Google images....mine don't show up for another 2-3 pages.
On a serious note, have you seen the HBG photos posted by outdoor writer Jim Gronaw over at Bruce's site, BBG? He's got a 12.5" specimen caught by his son featured over there at the moment, and that's only one of many over the last few weeks. Jim is a huge fan of HBG.
I had joined that site last year. Wasn't seeing too much activity, but I think it was winter. I'll go check it out.
I need to learn to navigate that site better I added you as a friend spark. That is a nice one Jim got.
Eh, most of us will be wet already anyway.
I see I pasted that in wrong thread.
Thought it was odd too, but was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Well they done it again with a vengeance. I have beautiful first generation HBG, now two generations of offspring. I'm thinking of adding regular bluegill and LMB to control them. How many generations will it take to get the green sunfish out. Maybe I should just try adding LMB now And see what happens. The SMB are not getting the job done. I really wanted a HBG pond like Tonys. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I think the fish truck may of mixed some regular bluegill in with my order. Those fry are everywhere.
It's not all that unusual no matter where you get them. Mine came from a hatchery. However, HBG can still spawn but to a lesser amount than BG. They aren't true hybrids like a mule.
John, how many of last year's spawn do you see now? let's think about the math....if 10-20 northern BG females are capable of sustaining the population in a 1 acre pond, and if we assume that HBG are 95% male, AND we stocked 500 HBG to the acre, then we already have 25 female HBG present.
What I'm getting at, is you will always see reproduction.....it's recruitment you need to control. Seeing 1-1.5" yoy HBG doesn't concern me, as I see em' every spring. But in my case their numbers decrease rapidly to the point that in five years I've never caught an F2. I know there's surely some in there, but their numbers are so low they are a non-issue.
How many 3-4 " HBG are you seeing? To me, that would be a good indicator of whether or not recruitment is occurring in a fashion to cause concern, and possibly warrant introduction of a different predator species.
Did you ever stock any single sex LMB?
That's what scares me Dave. I don't want a pond of GSF. I remember reading somewhere on here of somebody breeding standard bluegill back in remove them. I don't remember how that turned out but I think they had some success.
That's what scares me Dave. I don't want a pond of GSF. I remember reading somewhere on here of somebody breeding standard bluegill back in remove them. I don't remember how that turned out but I think they had some success.
I think northern BG would eventually replace HBG, but I wonder if LMB being present played a key role in the successful transition.
It might of Tony. I guess I could try for the sake of saving my HBG pond and learning for future success of others. I really hate to throw in the towel on them.
John, I felt like you when I wound up with them. But then, I started catching some. They're ugly mutts. I tossed them on the bank at every opportunity. However I found that a 5 inch GSF out fought a 7 inch BG or HBG. If they get to 8 inches, you need stronger line. I think my last one was about 9 to 10 inches and old the last time I caught it. After that, I pulled my hook away from hi/her/it just to keep from injuring it. It finally disappeared.
They spawn annually so mine disappeared after about 5 years. Then a creek overflowed into my forage pond and I got some more of them. I no longer worry about them and no longer look at them as a weed in the garden. I love the fight. If I had a pond to dedicate to them, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
However, if a pure HBG pond were my goal, I'd probably be upset. Other than killing the pond and starting over, I doubt that you can do anything about them.
There's a learning curve there John. We talk here on the forum of using HSB to control HBG recruitment, but are we speaking hypothetically, or from experience? That's what makes your efforts so valuable to the forum as a whole, and to myself especially....I want to experiment with HSB in a predatory role also, so I appreciate what you're going through, and your willingness to share it here.
I went with mixed sex LMB as my control measure. I don't see bass overrunning my pond like what is sometimes suggested may happen, but I do have LMB growing larger than what I'm comfortable with. If HSB would work in their place, I would try them in my pond.
I have 25 HSB in my pond and 40 SMB and they are not even knocking a dent in population. I think the HSB are filling up on AquaMax and not offspring. I'm going to think it over for a couple days and then maybe start adding LMB next week. I know of a pond over run with small ones. How many do you guys think I should add to start? Tony you toss out all of yours after they get to a foot right?
John, what are you seeing, size wise, with your HBG recruitment?
My plan was to remove LMB once they eclipsed the 12" mark. However, this is easier said than done. Just last year I began allowing visitors and guests to bass fish in the HBG pond, in order to help me remove those larger fish.
I have F2's around 4 inches and this years anywhere from inch to two.
I'll catch a few today and get pics when/if I get a chance.
John, for what it's worth, I have a similar problem in which I unknowingly stocked HBG that the hatchery sold me as BG. When I realized this, we made a trip to a local lake that had been stocked about 1 year earlier with BG and transplanted 100. I also have LMB.
That was 2 years ago. My plan was to keep all the HBG as we catch them and toss back all BG. However, now that some of the HBG have reached 8 to 9", I have a hard time removing them knowing that next year they'll be even bigger. Like Dave said, we love catching those big ones. So now the plan is to remove all HBG caught except for any 8" or larger.
I know plenty of the HBG are females based on the eggs I find when filleting them, but I don't think a significant number of the offspring survive the LMB predation. Fly fishing with small nymphs, I catch plenty of small 2 to 3" BG, but rarely any small HBG. So I think as long as the BG spawn in greater numbers than the HBG, and we keep removing the majority of HBG caught, with the help of the LMB we should see their numbers reduced to the point of not being a factor.
Thanks guys. We will get this figured out.
Very few fish live to maturity but become prey as fry and up to a certain size. That size is determined by the other, larger, predators in the pond. That predation is mostly determined by the size and mouth gape of the larger fish.
Have you caught any of your HBG yet this year John? Curious to know what size yours are getting up to.
Here in SE Ks the smaller BG have been active on warm sunny days and have caught several of the 5-7" BG. Only caught one 8" which I should have a number of that size by now (at least they were that size last fall). Caught a couple 13" LMB. I suspect the larger BG are still around the deeper cover. Seems like on days where the fish are less active the small BG and FHM near the shore line are still somewhat active. So based on my limited observations, the smaller fish get more active quicker than the larger specimens. Everything I've caught so far has been fairly near the shore.
Just wondered how your HBG came out after the winter.
John - Small HBG can be easily caught in fish traps and several weeks of trapping can catch significant numbers of them for sorting and removal or return to the pond. Check out the various types of fish traps that members have bought, built and used.
I would not be real concerned about seeing some offspring of your HBG. One form of encouragement is that an early member (Meadowlark) of the PBForum was doing some growth studies of the Fx generations of HBG. He was finding that the offspring of HBG grew well if they had plenty of food (pellets). My limited experiences with the growth of offspring of the original stock of HBG is they do seem to grow well if they have ample food. Maybe you and others with HBG can also monitor the growth of your HBG offspring to give us some reports of what you are seeing happen as far as their grow and top end sizes. I will look for some of the posts of Meadowlark that describe his observations about FX generations of HBG and report back here with my findings.
I just finished building two smaller fish cages intended for this very purpose. I have minnow traps set out to try and catch some FX fish, and one of my projects this year is to begin caging and feeding them to try and establish just what they are capable of.
Sprkplug - Way to go. Excellent idea! I love it. I and many others await your results and I hope your results will make it into the PBoss magazine. I am jealous. Spark you are my HBG hero.
Here is some other reading about offspring of the HBG. Note in the Meadowlark link the information about the HBG offspring is farther down on the page.
http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/TGG.htm4th generation HBG
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=393700#Post393700This thread will be placed into the Archives in the HBG Topic
I'm going to take some worms down to pond first chance I get. I went to check sizes Monday and wound up clearing FA all afternoon so I could fish. I fed that evening and everything went crazy. Was surprised to see that much action this early.
Yo Wann
Sounds like you have some FA issues - could this due to a lack of rooted vegetation established as it's a new pond? If you get some beneficial vegetation going it will help tie up those nutrients and help prevent FA from flourishing.
I think HBG are a great companion species for your SMB/HSB fishery and they will not become an issue you can't manage through angling and trapping if necessary. I think the fish that make it through the gauntlet will be trophies and a ton of fun to catch.
Good to hear from you, been a while. Viva El Wann!
...and establish just what they are capable of.
Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you........
TJ
What would you call good rooted vegetation? My pond is new and FA is flourishing
Please hold off on the LMB! You can't un-ring that bell.
Pat CJ and Cody can advise you much more thoroughly than I, but these are some of my favorite cultivars of emergent and submergent macrophytes:
Submergent
American Pondweed - fairly easily managed and can fish through it easily.
Illinois Pondweed - pretty similar I think I have both species present - both seem to appear later in the season for me.
Eelgrass - Spiral and corkscrew [maybe the same thing?]I don't have it, but I want it. A favorite of Cody and CJs.
Bushy type Pondweed - Various pondweeds like Sago, Horned, etc. can be good but my Baby pondweed is starting to become a management issue. Can be easily treated, and one can always opt for an organic solution with GC stocking. I bumped my population to 3/acre to help manage the Baby Pondweed last Summer.
Hybrid Lillies - Cody is an expert on lillies - has written extensively on the subject and suggests several good cultivars that are easy to manage and bloom in various colors. I want to try to establish them in my upper ponds that lack GC.
Emergent
Cattails to an extent can help utilize excess nutrients - a thin line of them along Northern banks exposed to lots of wave action can be a great natural defense. One will have to treat them annually to keep the colony managed - don't let them get away from you. Bear in mind cattails are a preferred forage item for muskrats - so I eradicate mine several times annually - can't afford the muskrat factor.
Various sedges and rushes are great emergent vegetation. I can't ID my species, but I have some growing naturally in few places on the main pond. I'll be transplanting it throughout the main pond this year in addition to the upper ponds and hopefully it propagates.
Arrowhead is a cool plant, and that also occurred for me naturally. Drawback is that I think Skrats also love grazing it...but I don't have the heart to treat it. It's a late season comer at my ponds - shows up around mid to late July.
Tons of other candidates I'm missing certainly, but these are the ones with which I'm familiar and have managed to an extent. Rooted vegetation should appear naturally - but some specialty species like Lillies and eelgrass may need to be introduced.
Bill has forgotten more than I know...he'll be along shortly. Try a Google search for "eelgrass pondboss" and "hybrid lillies pondboss" and start printing/highlighting.
Aren't we lucky to have those resources in our family?
...and establish just what they are capable of.
Ok, but don't say I didn't warn you........
Yeah, yeah. Daedalus warned Icarus also, but did you happen to catch the tan on that kid? It was all-over perfect bronze.
TJ, my one concern with promoting vegetation in a HBG environment is the need to keep pressure on the fry and yoy. I like to think the primary goal is to greatly curtail recruitment, and while plants will tie up nutrients thereby reducing the FA, they may also offer cover, which could be detrimental to the goal.
I wonder where the balance/happy medium point is, regarding HBG and the area devoted to beneficial plants??
Furthermore, if the goal is to try and reduce the fry/yoy, is it possible a more pelagic species like HSB might not fare as well prowling through the shallow vegetation like a LMB would, where predation against the HBG is concerned?
Always more questions.
REALLY good point, Spark. For me personally, I'd prefer managing HBG than FA. But, I don't think it necessarily has to come to that ultimatum. I have found [again in my personal situation] that high density population of apex predators allowed to grow to sufficient size/gape will eventually get on top of the BG and manage the population, despite the abundant cover my rooted vegetation provides. I have no other structure/cover in the pond, so in the Winter while vegetation dies back it's literally a bathtub from November to April. I suspect a very significant number of YOY BG and YP get hammered during this spell with no refuge. Now, consider that HBG are far less fecund than BG, and 97% offspring are male, I think Wann is facing a far more manageable situation than someone like myself, Banks, or Yolk who manage cool water species fisheries with BG present. If Wann can assist management efforts with some angling and trapping, my guess is he can keep on top of the HBG.
Yeah, yeah. Daedalus warned Icarus also, but did you happen to catch the tan on that kid? It was all-over perfect bronze.
You've totally lost me. What the heck does Iron Maiden have to do with Hybrid Blue Gills?
I'm down spark. TJ I have some other summertime plants. Been pulling all the cattails. Have some American Pondweed growing. I Was surprised to see the water FA take over like that in the winter. Thought it was more of a summer thing. I may let some cattails start growing on northern dam side. Along edge where they can be more easily controlled. Yep I'm still alive.
FA will abate...for the specific species growing right now it has the right temps, light, and nothing to compete with it. I bet things will round out ok for you in a few weeks as vegetation starts catching up. Raking FA from my small ponds is a worthwhile exercise - get it out and break the growth, death, decay cycle and allow the plants to get going.
You've totally lost me. What the heck does Iron Maiden have to do with Hybrid Blue Gills?
I now have even more respect for you, Yolk. Color me amazed.
Feeding AM tonight. Huge difference already. Not sure if I helped or hurt by pulling and breaking up but now it's just tiny patches all over.
John, when you rake out the FA, be sure to dump it below the dam. You'll reduce the nutrient load that way -- otherwise it will just wash back in when it rains.
