Fishing, pumping down three feet for seining, and finally a complete pump down will lead to the complete removal of unwanted fish, and the temporary holding of large female yellow perch, male bluegill, and smallmouth bass in a smaller holding pond until the pond is filled back up.

The pond is supposed to be an all female yellow perch and male bluegill pond to concentrate biomass in trophy size fish, which I sell to the taxidermy market. Unfortunately three years ago a floating cage that held both male and female bluegill was pushed under the surface by ice during a thaw. That quickly started the game plan unraveling. I also was sorting male and female perch near the pond water and had two male perch flop out of my hand into the pond.

To show you how strong the will to reproduce is I once had male only yellow perch in a floating cage. On one bottom corner of the cage there was a piece of zip tie sticking out. Came out to the cage one day and couldn't believe my eyes. A female had draped her eggs on the zip tie! How much you wanna bet the males in the cage fertilized them? I ran to the house to get a dip net and by the time I got back there the eggs had fallen off!

We've moved close to three hundred female yellow perch via fishing and seining. Esshup has been a big help and is always available if I need him. It works the other way too if he needs me.

The anglers that moved a serious amount of fish ice fishing and open water were Bill LaVigne, Norm Ramsey, Gary LaRue, Gary Hudson, and Bill's son-in-law whose name escapes me.

Anyway here are pictures Norm Ramsey took the other day:

The seine in the water along one side of the pier looking south:



The seine in the water next to the pier looking north:



Bringing the seine around on the south side of the pond:

Forming a final circle:



Me lollygagging while Scott does all the work.



Me pretending to work in the green jacket and Scott in the background.



There's Scott the master seiner.



Scott again. He dipped and I grabbed the net and put them in the tank on the shore.



You're not seeing where Scott (Esshup) got down in the clay and mud to get those fish out. Yours truly didn't get very dirty or work as hard as Scott did.

Great project pictures. And well coordinated. What were the results?

Why is that important?

I'm in the process of loading the pictures. You beat me to it.

A 9.5 inch bluegill that weighs over a pound. I try not to sell anything under 10 inches. Wouldn't you know it most of the gills are just under 10 inches. Maybe Condello bred brains into the bluegills too?



Some bull gills that have just been put into the cooler before moving them STAT to the holding pond.



A big perch one of up to 300 females that have been moved to the holding pond via angling and seining. This one is just under 14 inches.



Once again I don't sell any under 14 inches. Wouldn't you know it 99.9 percent of them are between 12 1/2 and just under 14 inches?

One of 31 smallmouth bass from 12 to 17 1/4 inches. This one was 17 1/4 inches. Didn't weigh it. All beautifully marked fish.

Wow, some awesome fish! Is the water naturally that color? Looks a lot like mine which is rich in limestone.

Just me being nosy! Great looking fish. Can't wait to see the results of the new project. And of course most were a quarter inch short.

Nice bg's! I've never seen sunfish get that big a private pond. How old do you think the majority of the bg's are?

Four to five years old?

No problem Omaha.

No more seining or draining of this pond if I'm careful and don't have any cages in the pond. Harvest will be by hook and line from now on. My thinking is Scott gets all my female bluegills, questionable sex bluegills, and male perch and when I need some broodfish if those sexes I can come over a catch a few. It's not that I need very many. I've also thought of getting some broodfish of those sexes from a few lakes around here to interject some new genes. Or maybe not a good idea?

Cecil, I know the flooding of the cage caused all this, but you have to be proud of the results.

Absolutely beautiful fish.

Well done. I hope we can manage our perch half as good. Great work it will pay off for you soon enough.

Cheers Don.

I don't think I would do that cecil just my inexperienced opinion but common sense dictates leave well enough alone.

Here's the next phase as I pump down the rest of the water. This eight foot stock tank is filled with water next to the pier with a sump pump.



Even when full it won't sink. As the pond goes down it goes down until it rests on the bottom.



Once the pond is down to a few inches the remaining flopping fish are picked up by walking on the bottom of the pond and thrown into the tank of fresh water. Then loaded in five gallon buckets and carried out. The pond is entered and left via a ladder.

You're probably right. Interestingly the big bad VHS virus the federal government warned us about is nowhere to be found. They've tested numerous bodies of water in my state and nothing. No more outbreaks in years anywhere else although fish do test positive in all the major Great Lakes ports. Funny thing is no clinical sign of disease.

Very nice fish Cecil !!!

Now that is a very innovative, cool idea (the blue tank). They don't jump right back out I assume.

Pretty neat Cecil! Those are some nice fish!

No they don't seem to jump out but there will be fish in the tank already if it's like last time!

Correction: I sunk two tanks to the bottom last time so there won't be any fish automatically in the blue tank this time.

I haven't had perch or bluegills do much jumping in a tank unless they are startled in my indoor RAS tanks. They seem more interested in hiding.

Great pictures and great looking fish!!

seantOH

Very cool Cecil! Nice job of documenting, and an interesting read!

Esshup taking any home? (noticed the Suburban)

JKB, whatever Cecil didn't want to put in his ponds came home with me instead of tossing them on the bank for the scavengers (well, there were a couple of exceptions.....).

Cecil, if you need me to source any BG from other parts of the country in my travels, just let me know. Maybe a back cross to a certain Nebraska strain?

You are correct, anytime you need fish, and I have them, consider them yours.

Cecil, don't forget to take pictures of the next phase. Can Norm come over and take pictures? Please tell him that he did a great job!

That's remnants of Aquashade.

Thanks for the kind words but I'll let you know how proud I am when I get the pond drained, refilled, and the fish back in the pond. Just thinking about it makes me tired.

Oh yes he got female bluegills, bluegills I couldn't sex and smaller bluegills for his pond. I also gave him male yellow perch and some of the big females.

I'll see if Norm wants to come back out or if not it shouldn't be as hectic so I can take pictures. BTW the pond was down 42 inches this evening.

I did tell him he did a great job and I will send him a link to this page. I also corrected his name listed as Norma originally!

Thank you all for your kind words. Cody and Condello are the ones that originally turned me on to male bluegill and female yellow perch pond management.

Here are the two tanks I sunk when I drained the pond last time. They are now recirculating tanks at two high schools.

I also used the boat as a holding tank.

Some pictures last time the pond was drained down:

Had to put the intake of the pump inside a fine mesh cage as small bluegills were clogging it up.











Check out these bluegill beds!



There shouldn't be any Chara this time. I had a good algae bloom that started last summer in conjunction with the Aquashade.

The ridges you see off the breaks are not due to the pond banks sloughing. I had the edges dipped a few years after building the pond and he could only reach out so far with his excavator.

Also note I did not have a pier going all the way across at the time.

He made out like a bandit then

Nice pics I love the dock you have going through the middle of the pond. How deep is your pond what size of pump are you using, and how long does it take to drain it?

He earned it.

Here's my dear ol'dad catching as many fish as he could before the last drain down. Looks like he's fishing at low tide.

The max depth of the pond is 9 feet on the nose. I am using a trash pump that is rated at 200 gpm at zero head. It takes a couple of weeks or more non stop 24/7. Unfortunately I have to shut it off at night before I go to bed as it would run out of gas at some point during the night. I also drain the pump tank as it's been getting below freezing just about every night and I don't want to risk any damage. And roll up the discharge hose and bring it in during the night to keep it from freezing solid.

This pic looks like something from the orient:



I should have gone to bed by now, but took a long nap earlier. Stuck awake! maybe watching the boob tube will do the trick.

You're right it does. It looks much better with most of it under water!

What percentage of fish do you think you remove with just the seine alone? I am curious as to the effectiveness of it... And, great photo documentation. you never cease to amaze me at what you're able to do.

It's hard to say as this is the first time I've used a seine preceding a total drawdown. I didn't have a seine the last time. The last time I did a total drawdown we just fished it really hard before completely drawing it down.

I will say the pond was not built for seining as the banks are too steep for easy seining. And we're not seasoned pros that seine on a regular basis although Scott is definitely better than me.

A member of my aquaculture board of directors runs a fish farm that apparently has ponds that are built for seining, and he says he gets very high percentage of the fish in the ponds.

BTW I got my 200 foot seine for $50.00! A fish farmer in Minnesota was retiring and shipped it to me. He didn't even want shipping but I insisted. He said it's had a lot of pulls but should do the job and it has! I cut off 60 feet for my production ponds that are only 40 feet wide. So the seine in the water is 140 feet long with the pond 130 feet wide.

Update:

Pond is now less than 5 feet maximum depth



More bluegill beds showing up as water level drops and exposes them:





The seine is dry enough to roll up and put away.



Geothermal discharge fully exposed now:



Close up showing trash pump with intake (green hose) and outflow (blue hose).

Cecil, you need a bigger pump? I've got a 16,000 gph pump, 20+' of suction hose and 100' of 3" discharge hose. The pump will run about 14 hr on one gas tank filling. Even in in these temps, no need to drain at night 'cause it would run all night long. I'll bet it's 17°F here now.

Scott, I got a 3" extended run pump this year with very similar numbers to yours, and am extremely happy with the choice. I was surprised at the volume difference between it and my old 2" pumps.

Cecil/Scott, how is the pond going to be refilled?

Also, can one of you explain the geothermal hose? I'm not familiar with that.

Scott,

I'm good. Actually I can barely afford the gas as it is as business is basically nonexistent right now and has been all winter. Since most of the bluegills are under 10 inches and the yellow perch under 14 no sales there either.

It will be completely down this coming weekend.

I have a well at the highest point of my property. Since I will be running it through my trout pond soon I can kill two birds with one stone by allowing it to overflow into this pond to fill it up at the same time.



Open loop geothermal heating and cooling. Well water is used to heat and cool the house and then it's discharged into the pond.

I *wish* I could do that! Our well does not have near enough flow rate to pull that one off, and it is too risky to try another well to find it doesn't have enough flow. Buried loops and excavation just cost way too much, as does getting the house retrofitted with duct work.

The cost of propane may just make it seem like a steal soon though. $3.59 a gallon! Arg!

Multitasking at it's finest! Good luck with all this. Very informative thread.

I wish I had closed loop. It would be more economical as the well would not be needed. Not sure I could afford to modify it though but I may do some checking.

My main concern right now is the clogging of iron and carbonates in the discharge line. Its seems to flow O.K. though - at least for now. My local plumbing supply said they could run a benign chemical through it. I will see how much it costs. Now may be a good time with the pond down and fish out. I almost wonder if I could do it myself. Shut the furnace down and cap the end of the hose temporarily. Then run in muriatic acid and let it sit for a little while. Then crank it back up.





Is that a good price for propane? With all the natural gas developing in this country you'd think the price would go down?

Cecil I don't think your dog is too happy in the one pic Maby the new diet

Nah she's good at making faces. I made her sit for the picture as I was trying to take a pic of the net and had her on the leash at the same time. She's got a knack for moving just as I snap a picture.

Excellent thread...Lots of good info in here...

When I switched from a 2" pump to a 4", I didn't notice any increase of gas usage. If anything, I think I used less because it gets the job done faster where the other engine and 2" pump would still have been running, and running, and....

Makes sense but I have other things to consider, such as, the amount of flow going into the highway ditch as although I am not doing anything wrong I don't like to attract attention.

I had a neighbor whine to the water division of my dnr about my well pumping but fortunately I was under a certain gpm rating and didn't even need a permit. I don't know for sure who it was but I have a good idea as he's complained about the noise of my compressors even though he lives a few hundred feet away. LOL

He wants to purchase the open land next to me from a neighbor, but if it ever comes up for sale I get first bid. He shot himself in the foot by not being very friendly to the neighbor with the land before he was interested. The guy with the land and I get along really well.

I hope this doesn't come across as nosy, but I'm curious about the house pictured here...is it connected to the portion above the garage doors?

Looks almost like two separate structures.

We are well above $4/gal for propane down here. I put in a tankless hot water heater a couple years ago thinking it would save me money on utilities and it has ended up being remarkably expensive.

No problem. The garage and apartment above it are separate from the log home but on my property and owned by me. They are joined by a deck. That's where my parents live when they are not in Florida.

So much for passing on the savings for more plentiful natural gas. LOL

Mom & Dad had their propane tank(s) filled in the fall for $1.67/gal. They can run about 11 months on about 800 gallons of propane.

Cecil, now would be a perfect time to clean out the geo lines.

I had an old 40 gallon water heater and going to a whole house on-demand heater saved me quite a chunk of change. Putting in the fireplace insert saved more $$. I paid for the insert in 2 years by the natural gas savings.

The irony is I live where there is abundant natural "shallow" natural gas wells. Even have a gas leak/spring in the front of my dam and have it in my well water. Do you think we would have local gas lines to residences? Heck no. It is all piped off to suburbia and urban areas.

So I heat mostly with wood, and don't purchase enough propane to hit the magical "bulk" number. Every fall I have to shop and barter better prices, which I HATE doing, but always get screwed in the end.

The gas company won't run lines to my location as it's too far out and too few customers.

Worst part of it is that my contract with the propane supplier stipulates that they can come without letting me know and fill the tank.

I have a 1,500 gallon tank buried in they yard and it is a miserable surprise to open the mailbox and find a very expensive bill stuffed in there with no warning.

I am very strongly considering taking it out and going to a heat pump style water heater.

That hurts. I paid $2.36/gallon for Amerigas in January and then learned that the local FS was $.90/gallon cheaper. I booted Amerigas on Monday of these week and switch to FS. Only have a 500 gallon tank but get a $.15/gallon discount for allowing them to auto fill the tank. They typically do this in the summer when the price is the lowest.

I had a small gas tank installed to supply gas to our fireplace. The wife liked to crank it up in the winter to take the chill off etc. One day a gas guy shows up and says, "I've come to take your tank as you're not buying enough gas from us." Says there is some gas left and they will pay me for it. Then he comes back in before leaving and says he was wrong there was no gas left. Uh huh...

My dad who lives next door on my property was a big customer of there's and called them to come and get the GD tank as he would be going with someone else. He bought his own tank and buys from whoever can get him the best price now.

I told a lot of people about what happened to me and I wonder how much business they lost? It just amazes me how some overpaid CEO's come up with this stupidity.

That's just it. If you rent the tanks, you have to buy gas from whom you are renting from. If they pick up the tank, you are not reimbursed for the propane.

We (Dad and I) went to a local weekly auction and bought two 1,000 gallon tanks. I borrowed a trailer and they loaded them for us. A friend came over and unloaded the tanks, and put them in place. I went thru the tanks, making sure the gauges were good and seals were good. The propane company that we placed the propane order with came over before the first delivery, checked my work and then filled the tanks.

Yes, the tanks weren't cheap, I think they ended costing right around a dollar a gallon. But, for what the savings are for owning them, it'll pay off in the long run.

For some reason, Mom & Dad's propane usage dropped almost 50% the first year they owned the tanks and aren't using the first propane company anymore............. We bought two 1,000 gallon tanks because based on their propane usage with the rental tank, they'd need almost 1,600 gallons per year. The first year I shopped around for them, and found up to $1.00 per gallon difference in propane prices, depending on what company I called.

Nice Place Cecil.

Something I do when I drain is donate some of the fish for a tax right off. You can donate good wholesome food to an eligible 501(c)3 organization that will take them. You need to get all the right information and documentation you need about the organization and your donation. I also adjust my value to just under Fair Market value so the IRS has no issue with the price used to figure the donations. But this is only good if you itemize your deductions and need a larger tax shelter.

You can also get outside the box when doing this stuff. Sponsor say a Church fish fry and they generally supply most of the labor from within the church. You provide everything else and at the end of the day the money taken in is counted and you are handed a reciept for the total collected from the cash generated from your donation.

Good idea but I think I'll let them grow a little until this fall when many of the bluegills should be 10 inches and the perch 14 inches. I get up to $50.00 each for them at that size.

I could actually sell them under that size but I prefer to sell a unique product at a unique size to make me stand out from someone who just sells fish.

Cecil is that a 10" Northern BG that goes for $50 in your neighborhood?

Not my neighborhood although I have sold them to a few local taxidermists. Most are sold out of state and are sold frozen vacuum sealed to taxidermists all over the country as far away as Hawaii. The key is a taxidermy website I go to to sell them that is frequented by taxidermists all over North American and Europe. If I have what they want I've sold them as fast as 4 minutes from posting to Paypal.

I also have a good reputation I've developed over the years and freeze them a special way after several measurements are taken, any potential flaws listed, and weighed on a certified scale etc. Some esoteric knowledge I've learned being a fish specialist.

Fish are shipped in custom insulated boxes with a corresponding paper trail. I also know what states I cannot sell them to. There are some southern states that only allow the sale of gamefish for stocking. No exceptions. I've sent written queries (surveys) to all 50 states with responses in writing other than the ones that refuse to respond.

I had no problem buying the gas but filling up the small tank once a year wasn't good enough for them. I least I do have the buried gas line they installed and will be good to go when I buy a tank.

I'm one crazy dude. I ran out of gas for the pump and the wife has our only vehicle -- out of town visiting her mother -- who is in failing health. Anyway, she won't be back until tomorrow evening so rather than waste 24 hours not pumping I grabbed the 5 gallon gas can and hoofed it into town by foot. 2 miles there and 2 miles back. A cop with radar really looked me over as I walked past. I figured if he questioned me on the way back I'd ask him if he thought I was speeding.

Not bad for a 55 year old. I was really moving out on the way there but a little slower with about 3 gallons of gas on the way back.

Well, at least you didn't putt putt down the shoulder of the road with the garden tractor and trailer with a few empty gas cans in the trailer!

Though it doesn't feel like it when your walking it's good for you. Even I take daily walks through the woods around our house. MY best buddy Is 70 years old and I told him that he had to stay around awhile longer, that means getting a little more active and eating better. so now he, and I walk the rr tracks together every day. He's told me how much better he feels his back doesn't hurt and he has more energy.

Good work, sp. "You're wise beyond your years"...

Are you referring to the guy down the road that gets his groceries that way? Have you been here when he does it?

I can't remember what post but someone asked if you could tell if a yellow perch was close to dropping her egg strand. This one is as close as you get. Sorry it's blurry.



Unfortunately she didn't make it and will be sold frozen to a taxidermist. Apparently she was too far along when she was moved and the stress killed her. Or she may have been one of the few that die every spring at this time due to some problem with passing the egg strand.

BTW the perch and bluegill I moved to the temporary holding pond are feeding well even with the cold water.

Did you find anything unexpected in this venture Cecil?

Not yet. Deepest water is between three and four feet right now and I'm just seeing 2 to 4 inch bluegills with 8 to 9 inch yellow perch right underneath them -- mostly in the vicinity of the blue tank.

I know there are larger fish but they blend into the bottom quite well even with clear water. I'm hoping there aren't too many left so it won't be as much of a pain in the arse to lug them out.

Man I hope you find some kind of mutant yellowgill..

We did when seining. PVC pipe, a cylinder of cage netting, & a rotting YP. I was expecting to pull up a boot or 2 also!

Cecil I remember her. She was ready to pop when we transferred her out of the seine.

I really think you have more fish in the pond than you realize.....

Not a yellow perch expert but it appears to me like that yellow perch had some trouble trying to pass the egg strands.

It happens every year. I remove about a dozen of them like that.

Did you ever find that 15" YP?

Don't think there is one. It's possible they are all under 14 inches because there are too many, and many have been feeding on the natural feed in the pond. For 300 yellow perch in the 1.5 pound range I haven't been feeding that much.

Two perch spit up 4 inch bluegills when I moved them.

The bluegill and perch in the holding pond are feeding pretty well once a day even in this cold of water.

Update:

These pictures were taken this morning. Pond is even lower this evening with max depth in the center around 3 feet. Pond is receding fast. I can see the bottom everywhere by standing on top of the pier.

Scott, not may large fish left and what there are, are hiding under the two tanks I set up. I do have several thousand 1 to 4 inch bluegills though hanging around the tanks, which I will try to scoop into the white tank once the water level goes down to almost nothing, and they are trapped in a hole.







Two tanks now ready for fish once I can walk around the bottom in waders and pitch them in. The larger one will be for larger fish and the white smaller one will be for 1 to 4 inch bluegills. It's amazing they won't sink even when full.





The end of the intake tied inside a bucket to keep from sucking in the bottom. I will switch this to a fine mesh cage soon to keep out small fish from plugging the intake.

Surprisingly there is not much muck on the bottom as I've been testing it with a pole in the center off the pier. I can only penetrate in inch or two until I hit solid clay. I attribute this to the two membrane diffusers and rotary vane compressor I run from spring to fall. Not bad for a pond that was built in 1994.

I would've expected their to be a lot more muck on the bottom than that. At a friends pond the muck has been building up for 50 years. The pond used to be 14 feet deep but now it's only 5-6 due to the muck.

Impressive at how little muck there is... What are you doing with all the tiny BG?

I'll bet he didn't use diffusers to mix the water column keeping the bottom aerobic, which allows aerobic bacteria to consume waste more efficiently than anaerobic bacteria.

Holding them in a cage for Scott for forage for his forage scant pond or a customer down the road that wants them. Even though they are of Condello stock X others, most of the small ones that are not on feed from the get go are inferior to the ones I hatch in a separate pond. Big eyes and narrower bodies. Another reason why I want to get back to male only gills and female only perch.

I like the idea of single sex small ponds. I am sure people would pay a bit more to buy single sex fish of different species to stock smaller ponds. If only sexing most fish species was easier. Crappies would be great that way... Just takes one oopsie though.

Cecil, let me know when your neighbor down the road has all that he needs. I'll come over with the trailer.

I'll bet you don't have a lot of muck because you don't have any leaves blowing into the pond either.

Scott,

I think the pond will be down enough on Sunday or Monday. I'll keep you posted. I've already got a cage full right now for you except for some select individuals.

Yeah not many leaves end up in this pond. Wish I could say the same for the trout pond!

Most farms either won't do it or aren't really well versed in sorting by sex. My trout supplier in Michigan will sort only males for me but he charges me extra and it ain't cheap. However I don't blame him. Not sure I can get him to do it anymore as he grumbled how much work it was to sort 125 male brook trout for me the last time.

Even then there still usually are a few females, but I'm counting on that this fall as I'm going to spawn my own as the hauling is getting to be a pain. I have all the respect in the world for hauler's like Rex (Rainman) as I loath hauling fish. And don't even get me started on the permits!

If anyone is interested in a single sex pond I would suggest either getting them during a time of year you can easily sex them or putting the fish in cages until you can. Mature yellow perch are very easy to sex in early spring as are bluegills during late spring. If in any doubt whatsoever don't put the fish in the pond.

What are the advantages of single sex ponds?

1.) All biomass is in catchable large fish and since your pond has limits on it's carrying capacity even with pellet fed fish, you can hold more larger fish in your pond.

2.) No tiny bait stealers.

3.) No reproduction means complete control of your fish pond population. If you know what's in your pond from the beginning and what you take out minus any observed morts you can keep a running inventory of the fish population.

4.) Fish are easier to catch since they depend on the pellet diet you feed them. All you have to do is withhold feed to increase the catch rate (especially predatory species).

5.) Fish primarily on pellet diets grow faster and have higher relative weights. That said I'm still not happy with the fatty deposits and shorter lifespans of fish fed exclusively pellets. I also think it affects winter survival. I have had luck establishing a fathead minnow population before planting yellow perch and bluegill, and the fatheads seemed to have hung on until I added smallmouth bass. That was also feeding pellets before I added the smallmouth. It may have been eventually the yellow perch would have decimated the fatheads. Just don't know.

My original yellow perch supplier says his broodstick yellow perch do best on fatheads and crayfish. Says they don't produce as good of eggs on exclusively pellets.

Down to 30.5 inches in the deepest hole near the pier. Almost time to move the trash pump to the exposed pond bottom on top of a skid to get the intake closer to the deepest water.

Cecil,
First of all your perch are mind blowing, before seeing some of your pictures I had no idea yellow perch could reach 15" as I had only caught up to 11 or 12" before. Looking at your seining pictures reminded me of doing it as a kid at our cabin and catching all sorts of interesting fish. Pretty cool experience for kids, except the one who lost rock paper scissors and had to walk through the pickeral weed! My grandfather's uncles had always told him, and therefore he told us, to make sure and keep the bottom of the net as the lead edge. After trying our way and losing a lot of good bait along the way we finally listened to grandpa and sure enough it was much more efficient. Is this something you have noticed as well? As you bring the nets together towards shore(and it begins to bend in the middle) we learned this is crucial to make sure that the bottom of the net is ahead of the top. It's because at the point when the two people on either end have pulled it to shore and are joining the ends together the bottoms will line up first and trap the fish in the MIDDLE of the net and not allow them to swim up and down in the water column. Clear as mud? I'm the type that learns from being shown something not telling it so excuse me if that's confusing. I just thought it might be beneficial to some people reading to know that this is a lot harder than it looks and there are ways to increase the catch rate while working your butt off! I've learned a lot from reading your posts over the years so thank you for your contributions to the forum

You're right on the money and my dad who did a lot of seiniing for a bait store as a kid, and Scott (Esshup), who is a better seiner than I, have reminded me of this.

It appears so far heavily fishing the pond and seining it has done a good job of moving the larger fish as I'm not seeing many large fish in the shallow gin clear water. That makes me happy as moving fish out of the pond bottom isn't much fun.

Oh and thank you for the kind words.

Cecil, is it windy by you today? I went and shot Sporting Clays with the guys at the place in Bourbon and the birds were really dancing.

I'll bet that you could get FHM to stick around in the pond longer if you had spawning habitat for them. Removable of course to make seining the pond easier.

Sure is windy here too!



My thinking is the significant Sago Pond weed I had at the time may have been spawning habitat?

I don't plan on seining anymore unless I increase the depth of this seine about 4 feet to preclude any draining down. Or I get a whole new deeper seine, which considering the price is not likely. All harvest from now on in the big pond will most likely be by hook and line.

If you do get a new seine, a bit larger mesh size would make it easier pulling thru the water. Maybe 3/8"??

The step that is in the pond from having it dipped also makes seining it harder. Harder for the seine to stay stuck to the bottom.

Seining looks like way too much work!

We had a wind gust come thru a couple hours ago and I just noticed that 2 strips of my vertical blinds in the spare room were blown off and the attaching tabs are broken. I'll bet they charge me for them when I move.

Awesome pictures and info Cecil... I probably missed it but where is the pond water being drained? My overflow drain goes into field tile that goes back approx 1000ft into a creek.

New seine is doubtful unless I win the lottery or once the house is paid off in a handful of years. I priced them at the size I need even with larger mesh starting at 2 grand. Just not in my budget right now. And it's more fun harvesting by hook and line.

Yeah definitely not set up for seining.

I also have lots of responsible friends that will help me harvest by hook and line if I'm busy in the shop. Several of them have told me the fishing is so good I could probably charge for the experience, but I'm not interested in going that route.

They might have kept your deposit anyway. I've seen where lots of landlords come up with every excuse in the book to do so. On the other hand I know landlords that have had renters destroy property.

Highway drainage ditch with more than enough capacity. Highway department doesn't like it but I'm not breaking any laws or ordinances. As my dad puts it, "You pay drainage ditch taxes. Might as well get something out of it."

Well I ran out of intake hose to reach the waterline so I moved the pump down close to the waterline for the final drain out. Only problem is, now the pump has to push up hill a considerable amount which has increased the head considerably, and it shows with decreased pumping rate.

I may have to move the pump to the other side of the pond birm adjacent to the drainage ditch of which the intake hose can reach the deepest water. Or I do have 3 inch corrugated hose the intake hose will fit inside. I may experiment with that as in increasing the length of the intake. I'm just not sure the corrugated pipe will stay on the bottom.

Although I'm not doing anything wrong I don't like to draw attention to my pumping, which is why I was hesitant to move the pump to the highway side. It would also be a good way to get the pump stolen after dark. On top of that I want to drain this pond completely today as I notice my power company put in markers next to the ditch. Either they are marking buried power and the highway department is coming to dig the ditch or they are working on overhead powerlines. Either way I don't want to be pumping water while their here.

The pump moved down to the waterline and attached to a skid.



The end of the intake hose is inside this cage to keep fish out that would block the intake. Been there done that!

Cecil, I believe you will see more flow the less head your pump has to suck. Pumps are designed to push water.

True but the length of the inflow as stayed the same with no increase in incline. Now the outtake hose goes up hill vs parallel to the ground. That's making the pump work harder to move the water to the discharge end.

I've wondered if a person had 2 pumps of the same gph and hose size, if they could hook them up on the same hose. Say one at the bottom of the pond pumping up half way to the other one, and that one pumping the rest of the way out of the pond. I wonder how much quicker it'd drain the pond.

The same could be done with 2 electric pumps.......

Don't know but I will be moving the pump to the birm on the highway side momentarily which will have the out take hose level and them dropping to the ditch.

Here's a couple of photos showing how much the out take hose has to go uphill and is obviously putting pressure on the pump.






In the following photo notice there is virtually no head with the intake hose.




Here's a few boulders my pond builder excavated while digging the pond. Now exposed. Just think the last glacier brought them down from who knows where. And they were much bigger when they started their journey.

Cecil, where are those boulders in the pond? That makes it rough seining..... I thought your pond bottom was smooth.

I have always heard what esshup has said. It's better to have the pump as close to the water with a short intake hose. Its easier to push than pull.

I assume that by putting the pump at the berm you will have to add more suction hose AND it will have to pull it higher, but with a shorter outflow hose? This will be an interesting on-hand experiment to see if it gets better or worse.

And as a lot of said so far, thanks for the very detailed process you are going thru. Very interesting and much appreciated.

Yeah but that was the side I seined.

I forgot about the boulders.

I'm going to go out and take more pictures. Moving the pump to the highway side of the birm is working great. No pushing needed uphill on the outlet hose as it's parallel to the ground and just dumps in the ditch. I did move the pump unto the pier to get closer to the deepest hole but no go on that. Just too much head and wouldn't draw the water.

I've got about 20 gills in a hole swimming around trying to figure out what to do. I'll be back with pis momentarily.

The final location of the trash pump:



The outflow into the ditch.



Guess who came to diner this morning?



Three small bluegills trapped in a leftover pool:



Glare it too bad and the sun clouding over that the 20 or so big gills near the boulders won't show up in a picture. They're also panicking a little as the water goes down and stirring up the bottom reducing visibility.

I hope this isn't too off-topic, or a hijack. But, it involves a pond that I believe is probably similar to Cecil's ponds.

This pond was built a year ago. It collected a lot of leaves last fall, that seem to have collected around the edges. A lot of algae is now growing in the semi-suspended leaves. It is a 1/4 acre pond, with near-constant flow-through about 10 months per year. It was designed to be drained with a siphon or semi-trash pump. It has steep sides and a wide flat bottom designed to be be seined.

I'm far from ready to drain and seine it. It needs another year.

I'm thinking about putting my 2-inch semi-trash pump on a trailer, and going around the edge of this pond sucking up leaves and algae. Kind of like the truck that sucks the sludge out of my septic tank, but on a somewhat smaller scale. I'd remove the filter on the intake hose.

I guess the real questions is, how bad are leaves and algae for a semi-trash pump?

Ken,

I'm thinking not bad as they are designed to pass things up to a certain size. However I don't really know for sure. If you do it let me know how it works.

My back aches and I'm tired this evening. Just got in about 45 minutes ago. Wouldn't you know it the pond didn't pump down where I wanted it until just after dark! However a head lamp and a net attached to a long piece of PVC did the trick as I picked up fish that exposed their backs in the low standing water. Actually scooping them up with my hand and putting them in the net worked better trying to net them. Moved about 30 more large perch that way and 25 more large bluegill. No more smallies that I could see.

Now I just have to move them out of one of the tanks in I have sitting on the bottom in the morning. Fortunately since both tanks won't sink I'll just allow them to come up with the water level before removing them.

Highway department may be out as soon as tomorrow to dig the ditch as my power company left a flag and markers saying no power line in the ditch in from of the neighbors house. Finished pumping just in time then! I put everything away and the ditch will be just moist by tomorrow. Like I said I'm not doing anything wrong pumping into the ditch but still don't want to attract any attention.

Next is rotenone for the remaining fish. And I hope to nuke the pond with hydrated lime also.

Then it's time to run the well through the trout pond and overflow to this pond to fill it up.

I'll bet you were muddier than I got seining your pond!

I got stuck and fell a few times and my face looked like a chimney sweep. I'll be so glad when the pond is full again and the female perch and male bluegills are moved back. No more draining or seining of this pond!

How much gas would you figure it took to drain the pond?

I'll let you know soon as I need to add up the receipts and enter them in my business computer program. Somewhere between $100.00 and $200.00 if I had to guess. Volume moved was close to a million gallons.

Cecil:

Don't be in a hurry to get the pond full. Make sure all the stragglers are dead first!

True but at the same time 350 1.5 lb. yellow perch and 75 approximately 1 lb. bluegills, and 31 1 to 2 lb. smallmouths in a 1/10th acre pond will cause ammonia to creep up as temperatures rise. So far no ammonia is showing up in tests thought. The cool weather is helping me out.

I will be thorough as there is no way I'm doing this again and I would be so bummed if I didn't get them all. You can be sure I will be sorting like I'm OCD when I put fish back!

I just got everything set up this morning to move fish out of the white tank to the holding pond and a line of thunderstorm/showers came through. Fortunately the radar is showing it's short lived. I don't mind getting wet but lightning scares me especially if I'm the highest point around.

Here are more pics.

The pond drained down as much as possible from right to left:

As you can see I suck at trying to do photos to fit in a panoramic view.











Shot at a slightly deeper hole that held most of the larger fish:



Looking down into the tank that holds the fish I need to move. I didn't use the blue tank.



My feathered friend was back and probably flew away heavy where there are a bunch of trapped small fish.



My handy sump pump before being lowered into the white holding tank before it drains down the tank as I remove the fish. A ladder to go up at down the pier is not pictured but sure beats walking through the mud!

Cecil, thanks for all the pictures. Seeing what you're going thru makes me realize that proper design of a pond that is to be used for fish production is paramount!

I also see the rock to the left of the pier is what I had the seine hung up on.

2 people would make that job so much easier...... At least you don't have to go to the gym today! Is Eva still getting her daily exercise?

What kind of sump pump is that? I have a welbuilt. It's rated for 21 gpm.

Yeah a fish production pond in my mind would be rectangular, not too deep or too steep of sides, sloping to one end, and most of all a drain that can be opened on the deepest end to drain without pumping. A concrete basin in the deep end to catch the fish would be really helpful with concrete stairs going down to it. Add to that a way to add fresh water into the concrete basin and you're good to go!



Yeah well we can't make it easy now can we?





True but then again when you do things by yourself enough you find creative ways to get the job done. I'm sure you can relate.



She's not getting it every day but almost every day. Once I start filling the pond again I can get on a regular schedule again which means long walks to exercise the dog and for to continue to lose weight.

Cecil, the drain, basin and steps are a good idea if the land topography allows. From walking on concrete boat ramps, I'm thinking the steps might be slick too, but you could always drain the pond,and power wash the steps befor using them.

You've seen my place. Any idea how to accomplish it when the ground looks like a pool table?

I don't know what the brand is but I picked it up at Menards. Be careful around water with these things!

Gotta go. The rain quit and the fish need to be moved out of that tank before the ammonia spikes. I've supplied my two high schools with ammonia neutralizer but have none for myself!

Funny how prophetic my advice was on using sump pumps and to be careful. For reasons I don't know I had electricity in the tank with the fish as I was pumping it out and removing fish via the sump pump. No extension cord connections were in the water. Put my hand in the water to pick up the fish and felt current. Not tremendous but enough to be uncomfortable. Metal ladder though and partially metal pier. I was wearing rubber boots which may have helped me?

No more sump pumps in the ponds. From now on it will be a gas powered pump. Fish aren't worth dying over.

I would think there may be something you could do to the concrete to eliminate slickness? I wonder what the state and federal hatcheries I've seen pictures of this do?



You'd have to build up fill to make a pond an embankment pond I guess?

Any way to get those rocks out of the bottom for future seining projects? Or at least drag them up above the depth for seining? Can you make some sort of rope bag to pull them out with a tractor or car?

How many feet of hose was that on the suction end of the pump. Looks like a lot!!!

Boy Cecil, better hope no red necks with 4 wheel drives find that mud hole

May want to fix or boot that sump pump. A tickle could indicate you were a path to ground, just not a good one at the moment.

You should have seen where my boss had me standing last fall No need for a story here, but I was totally drenched, standing in mud, and within a foot or so to the exposed business end of a high voltage supply to a pretty large factory. He walks away in his million volt suit and yells back, "don't fall!".

I did not know that I needed one of these suits. I am supposed to be inside and dry at all times

It's irrelevant Bill as there will be no more seining.

I think they are two 20 foot sections.

I won't using the sump pump again. Scared the sheet out of me. The trash pump is faster anyway even though my neighbor behind me whines if I use it at night. Only pumping now will be the trout pond every two years and the two back ponds once a year to remove bluegill and perch fingerlings. They are 1/6th the size of the front pond so it's a breeze to pump them down. They are also connected to the highway ditch via an underground 6 inch corrugated drainage pipe.

I'm actually starting to wonder if I'd be better off buying my fingerlings as it's probably more cost effective consider how feed is going up, utilities, etc.

Pond is now refilling. Thanks to Scott the remaining water in the water was nuked twice with rotenone. No life down there that I can see!

Here's an extension I added temporarily to allow the underground overflow from the trout pond to fill the pond without gouging out the bottom. Even the dog seems interested.

No problem Cecil. Hopefully we'll get some rain in the next few days.

Get some FHM from the bait shop and put them in a small minnow trap or cage in the pond after the water comes up. If they live, then the rotenone has dissipated and you can start transferring the fish.

The outside thermometer in the car hit 80°F today.

You can have some of the rain we got today

Starting to clear up tho.

Phil,

How much rain did you get? We could get 3 to 4 inches here but I'll believe it when I see it. Actually I hope Scott gets it his way as I would rather fill my pond with the well water than have a mud hole temporarily.

If it's like the rest of the storms this year, it'll stop right to my west, and re-start to my east.......

So what did you do Scott to get this kind of treatment?

Update:

Here is the pond filling back up primarily from wellwater that is overflowing from the trout pond and some recent rain. The green tint is iron in the well water.





A previous picture for comparison before the remaining water was treated twice with rotenone. The two tanks were moved after this picture to an area where water and fish could not be trapped underneath and survive the rotenone. Now the tanks are just floating around the pond.




I had a heron back today that was feeding on the remaining small fish when the pond was drained down before it was treated with rotenone. He was there today just standing there probably wondering where all the fish went. I ran him off primarily because of the remote chance he could regurgitate a live fish from another nearby pond. Very, very, unlikely, but after all the work and expense it took to drain this pond down and move the fish, I don't want to take any chances! Plus of course they are parasite vectors.

Once the pond fills back up I'll have the staked lines back in place and they won't be able to find a way in.

Cecil thanks for all the pics and info on the draw down process. I want to try this and start one of my ponds over. I have a question...

Have you ever done or seen any one use a freeze up to complete a fish kill. What I mean is...draw the pond down in Dec or Jan to a depth that would ensure a complete freeze to the bottom. Eliminating the chemicals and using the bitter temps to my advantage. Would this work?

It seems to work up your way with ponds that are used to produce fathead minnows that routinely winter kill. However I would be concerned if there is even a small bit of water trapped under the ice, or you got a sudden warm up and heavy rain, and you had some fish fry that could survive. I have an incredibily heavy population of ramshorn snails that are part of a parasite cycle and aren't as optimum for fish to eat vs. other species.

If you can't use rotenone for small amounts of water, either chlorine and potassium permanganate can be used and quickly dissipate to harmless compounds. I may still treat my pond with PP before adding fish to not only make sure the rotenone is neutralized but to kill potential parasites and pathogens. It could do a number on the snails too if I use a heavy enough doze.

This pond I am planning on renovating has BH in it. Along with the BH's, it too has ramshorn snails. In my other ponds the YP have lots of black spot and that white worm (can't remember it's name).

I am planning on making this 1/4 pond a YP only pond and would love to start fresh. Thanks for the info

If it was me I'd hit it hard with rotenone. Bullheads are some tough critters! I've seen them live out of water for hours!

How fast is your pond filling up? did you throw the fish back in yet? I hope it's going good for you.

Haven't moved any fish back yet. Need to be sure the rotenone isn't toxic anymore by putting some fatheads in a minnow bucket. We went way above the recommended amount as it has a shelf life, we didn't foresee using it again, and we wanted to be sure there were no surviving fish. But that shouldn't be a problem as the overdose was for the few remaining gallons left upon drain down. But cold water does take longer to detoxify.

The plan is to seine Sunday if the rotenone is no longer toxic.

About a foot to go until it reaches the bottom edge of the pier. 3 to 5 inches of rain in he last week helped too.

Did you take those pictures this evening? btw you seem to be really good with a camera nice pics!

Yes just before I went to feed the fish.

It's not hard if you have a good digital camera. The milk delivery truck in the background adds a nice touch doesn't it?

You're too young to know but I and others here remember when you had to do all kinds of things to take a picture like focus, wind in the film, know which lense to use etc. etc.

Didn't take long to fill up... Now let's hope there are no stragglers in there!!!

A half a gallon of rotenone applied to about 2000 gallons of water left maximum. I kind of doubt it.

That didn't stop a heron from standing in the water for a few hours. He's just like some people. Fish where there aren't fish but hope for the best.

Couldn't blame him though. There were lots of small fish confined in a small area just before we used the rotenone. He thought he found himself a perpetual honey hole.

Is that a Kingfisher just to the right of the floating white tank? (flying)

Nope Barn Swallow or Bank Swallow. The two species were flying together. By the time I took that photo they were calling it a day.

I do get a Kingfisher that shows up every year for a short while. He was here already for a short while after I drained the holding pond down a few feet before adding fresh water. He had his eye on the smaller fish I added for forage.

I watched him closely to see if he had any interest in the trout pond. None. Apparently the iron makes it too murky for him to see well and I believe the trout are too big for him.