Hey guys,

Back in June of 2012 I posted a topic regarding the construction of a small trout pond on my property. I wanted to divert a small stream into my pond and then discharge the water back into the stream. Many good comments were made and questions arose. I have not got most of those questions answered. Here is a summary.


The creek is considered a EV stream, which means I would need a DEP permit costing roughly 1750.00 if I wanted to dig a trench into the stream and use the water.

I would also need a DEP permit if the pond was within 50' of the stream due to FEMA's 100 year flood plain.

However, I spoke with someone from DEP on the phone and through E-mail and he stated that if I am 50' from the stream and as long as I do not break into the stream bank to feed my pond, I will need NO permits.

SO here is my thought process.

1. Keep the pond 50' away from stream.
2. Siphon the water from the stream using 4" pvc pipe or a 4" flexible house without breaking the ground. Then I would siphon water out of the pond and back into the stream in the same manner without breaking ground.

The DEP agent said this would not be an issue and I would need 0 permits.


So, Now to the good stuff.
How deep should I dig my pond to be able to hold trout year round? 8'??

Will a 4" pipe provide enough flow, oxygen, cold water to keep the pond cold enough for trout? The water temp of the stream is typically in the 50's and the pond will be well shaded.

I believe the soils I will be dealing with are all sandy/cobbles. I will need to inport clay or use a rubber liner. What is cheaper and what is "better"

Will I need to add a bubbler to the pond? If so, how do i get electricity to run it?


Thanks

MArk

mark i like your idea first off your siphoning idea will work wonders for you. if i was you i would go with a clay liner. with a 4 in pipe i would not worry about water flow. and oxygen issues how big are you going. the pond will not have to be very deep mine is 4 ft deep and the trout don't mind. instead of an aerator i would put the end of the siphon at the bottom of the pond keeping the bottom suplied with fresh water and oxygen it will be cheaper and you won't have to run electric. hope things go well for you good luck. how big is the pond going to be keep in mind the smaller the easier it will be to keep cool. what are your goals and how many fish do you want. these factors will determin if youl need to aerate or not.

Brooktrout are you going to have to pump water or will the pond be lower than the stream?

Also I would dig the pond as deep as you can afford taking into account the type of soil you have, and get someone who is experienced at building ponds.
A good aerator system is always a plus especially with trout but beware turning over too much water during hot months.

My pond is fed from a stream that is higher than the pond and a 2 inch pipe supplies about 60 GPM with a head of 12 ft., total from 2 pipes is about 110 gpm and the trout survive fine with a max pond depth of 8ft., but then my summers are probably cooler than yours.

There are flow rate charts on the internet on various pipe sizes and water flow, but you have to know the head pressure like AP said.

How large of a pond will it be? That will also have some bearing on how much water you need to move thru the pond. Cecil moves 50 gpm thru his pond and it holds trout during the summer. Deeper is better, more cold water reserves.

I have sandy soil. I looked into a elastomer liner and I found that clay was cheaper, but still too expensive for my pocketbook. That might not be the case with a smaller pond.

i forgot to mention when you go to stock cecil recomends no more than 12 pounds of trout per gallon per minute. size of the pond doesn't matter. trout farmers raise thousands of trout in raceways often only 3 ft deep and 6 ft wide but they have very high flow rates. the only reason i recomended not aerating is because it sounds like you are on a buget like most of us aeration is benifical in any pond. the other guys are right deeper is better but can cost more to dig the pond.

Book....siphoning or digging is the same as "breaking" in a regulated stream...permit required.

If the soil is sandy around the stream, or very porous, a shallow well, 50' from the stream would maintain stream level, help prevent trash fish contamination, and maintain groundwater temps. I would personally avoid the direct use of a stream unless I was a sure way to filter tiny trash fish fry.

I will comment on this when I get time. I will say one thing: Get what was said from the DEP in writing to cover yourself. These people have a habit of contradicting each other and sometimes a replacement can be 180 degrees off of his predecessor.

Thanks for all the comments. Cecil, I would love to hear your input.

The pond would be about 25'X50'.. give or take. Not very big, but it what my land has to offer.

The pound would be lower than the creek, so siphon would be possible without a pump. I think the idea of the siphon going to the bottom of the pond makes a lot of sense. I do not need a lot of fish, maybe a couple dozen or so.

From what the man said Siphon and digging are two totally different circumstances. I do have it in writing through an e-mail. Is that good enough?

Thanks

Mark

I would print out and save that e-mail along with all the information that showed where it came from and when. If the electronic copy was lost due to a glitch further down the road........

thats close to the size of my pond. mine is 20 by 50,and i only have about 4 to 6 gpm during a drout but up to 35 or 40 after a heavy rain. i think with that few trout the size of the pond and the amount of water flow you will easily getaway without aerating. i gues you plan on feeding them since there wouldn't be much forage. good luck update us soon. i'd love to know how your project goes.

esshup, printing it out as we speak! Thanks for the advice


Small Pond, I will keep everyone posted. At the moment I am taking quotes for the digging process, if I had the time I would dig by hand. How long did it take you to dig your pond out? If you have any pics of the entire process I would love to see it!!


Thanks

soo sorry brooktrout i just recently joined when the pond was done i never took any pics of the digging process . for me beeing 14teen I had all of the time in the world to dig by hand. IT started about 1 year ago in march of 2012 and i'd spend at least 30 hours a week diging sometimes i was even down there in the dark. and i finaly finished in december. if you have the money go for a peice of equiptment. depending on what size you get it may only take a few days to do.

4 inches may be just fine but keep in mind max flow rates given are for pressurized pipe and your flow will be gravity -- albeit a siphon. My pipe which is gravity flow from my well is 4 inch PVC and it pretty much fills the pipe at ~45 gpm.

Your depth of the pond depends on the flow. The more your flow the more water exchange and the less depth becomes an issue. I would shoot for at least one turnover per day of freshwater although mine is only 1/2 per day. You may not even need aeration if your turnover is good and your pond is not too deep.

Keep in mind siphons can be tricky. Get any air in there and the thing can gradually shut down. Been there done that with my early days with siphon and my recirc tanks. Keep both ends of the siphon below the water level at all times. If your siphon stops for any reason you may end up with some serious flooding. Also make sure you have something on the ends to keep fish in and out and to stop debris from entering the pipes. Also check periodically to make sure something doesn't come up against the ends of your pipes to block them.

Personally if it was me, and I wanted to do a siphon flow, I would use smooth bore pipe plumbed with a 't' and cap in the 't' to fill with a trash pump to get it started. There was a link here for Utube on draining a pond with a siphon. Perhaps someone here can find it?

Clay is usually cheaper but a good liner is reliable and less of a mess if done correctly and you don't mind spending the money.

Not sure trash fish would be that much of an issue in that cold of water. Perhaps darters etc. but most of the trash fish prefer much warmer water year around.

Ditto!

I ship frozen gamefish all over the country as far away as Hawaii (just shipped some bluegills to Sun Valley, California) and have sent out written forms to inquire about the legality for doing so in all 50 states.

I've had a few instances where law enforcement officers and biologists disagreed with each other. I had one special agent refuse to answer my questions because he said, "You're going to break the law anyway." Even had a conservation officer tell me it was illegal in Virgina because so and so code said it was. When I proved to him the code was no longer valid and had been replaced with one that made it legal the following year (thanks to a fish farmer telling me so from the same state) he refused to budge.

Brooktrout if you decide to go with a siphon and have any distance to go a rigid pipe works better than flexible cause it helps eliminate high spots that can collect air and cause back pressure to stop your siphon.
I use 2 inch gray pvc conduit, they are 10ft.each with a bell end so you can connect each pipe without using seperate connectors and with a small pond 2 inch might be sufficient depending on the head from stream to pond.
When starting the siphon I just use a submersible pump in the stream and pull the pipe off after 15 or 20 seconds, then I attach a plastic T to the intake, the T is drilled with many holes so this spreads the suction over a larger area and reduces the chances of debris clogging it. If your worried about trash fish you can make a filter box with screening which will also reduce the chances of clogging.

I have two 300ft. long siphons and this has worked well for me.

Excellent points AP!

Small pond- thats okay. Do you have any current pics of the pond?
Also, you never mentioned what kind of pond bottom you have. Is it clay?

Cecil- Thanks for all the input. I will have to meaure my possible flow. I believe I seen the youtube video you are talking about.
I think this is the link.
LINK : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXl7tdJ7iY

I never gave the trash fish much of a though.. now I am concerned.

AP- Thanks for the response. Although Id like to say I completely understand your procedure, but I dont. Is there any chance you have pictures of this? I assume I would need a siphon 50-150' long coming into feed the pond and 50-100' going back into the stream.


Thanks Again.

I will try and upload some picures of the site and sketches I made.

Brook...you can't siphon in both directions...only from high to low points. At best, you would reach equalibrium and flow would stop. Inflow will either have to drain naturally, or be pumped out, if the pond is indeed lower than the stream.

Are you 100% sure your stream is higher? Shhot an elevation from the stream water level to your pond bottom (or anticipated bottom).

Even if stream/pond levels become equal, electrical pumping could be fairly inexpensive since head pressure would be near zero and low wattage pumps could be used.

Pics!

Rainman, I uploaded some pics. I am fairly sure the stream is higher than the pond where the inflow would be and the pond is higher than the stream where the out flow would be. You can take a look at the pictures, the land is sloped in 2 different directions.

Why couldn't you let the water from the pond flow naturally into the stream without a siphon? Did they specifically say that would not be allowed? You wouldn't be trenching, digging, or breaching, just let it flow over the surface of the current ground. Erosion would be a battle. Perhaps lay a pipe on top of the ground without digging, but it doesn't have to be a siphon.

brook trout the pond bottom is compacted clay, i uploaded some picture files below. fnc I think that would be a great idea there is no need to siphon in both directions just let the water flow naturualy out of the pond.

Here's a photo of the pipe inlet in the stream, you can see the gray pvc, I have a 2 inch rubber connector clamped on the end of the grey pvc and a curved piece of 2 inch flexable pvc attached to it. You can also see my second pipe below it covered in foam insulation
You can get the grey pvc in the electrical dept. of any Lowes or Home Depot, one end of each pipe is flaired so you don't have to buy seperate connectors to put the pipes together.



This is the outlet into the pond, I put a white pipe at the end of one line so if there's a stoppage I can tell at a glance which line to check at the inlet.
It's easy to start the siphon with a submersible pump, once the siphon starts just pull the pipe off the pump keeping the pipe under water.

If you have a laser level you can shoot a spot to determine if your pond site is lower than your stream and by how much, they don't cost much and are a great tool.

Fish n chips- You are right, I would not need a siphon from the pond to the stream if I was to lay the PVC on the ground. Good thinking

Small pond- Nice pics! It looks like you did a really great job! How big is your inlet pipe?

AP- Thank you for the pics, I am a visual kinda guy. Why did you go with 2 inlet pipes? Also, why did you decide to use a bent pvc? It looks like you have a really nice elevation drop from stream to pond. Im thining I may need a pump, my slope is not as dramatic as yours.

I do have a laser level and will look into checking the elevations asap.

two last question for now, do you have trout in your pond and pond depth? Also, do you have an out flow of water and if so to where?

ap beautiful pics. brook trout my pipe is 2in

SMPD, those winter pictures remind me of where I grew up in Ky., sure wish we had a nice looking pond with those big hog trout in it when we were kids. Take care.

My first pipe was elevated over a big rock and supported all the way to the pond to keep an even downhill angle, the property here is very rocky and uneven. The second pipe follows along the ground with some ups and downs and so the output is about 10GPM less than the elevated pipe. The elevation drop is 12 feet.
I have 2 pipes for redundancy, falling trees have disrupted the siphons twice.
I've had trout every year except last year when my dam started leaking badly, it was repaired and will be restocking this spring with Tiger trout from a hatchery and Brook trout that I get from the stream on my property.
The pond has a maximum depth of 8 ft. and the pond outflow thru 2 culverts flows back to the stream because the stream is below the pond when it flows within 100ft. of it.

The water inlets are above the waterfall, that's where the elevation comes from. You can see the elevated pipe in the upper right corner of the photo.

Hey guys, I tried searching but could not find much info on pond liners. I called around and gota quote of 300 for a tri axel load (22-ton) of clay.. With the size of the pond being about 25x50X8 with about 6" of clay liner, this would be aroud 1500.00 just for the product without labor. So I decided to look into a rubber liner.. Man in this confusing. there are 10, 20, 30, 40, 45, 60 mil.. I know the 10 is cheap stuff and the 60 mil is high quality stuff! I guess im asking what mil would I need/want to put in the pond so I can figure out how much coin this is going to cost me.

Thanks
Mark

try googling used billboard tarps some people say they're complete crap but as long as you cover it in sand or dirt they won't leak will last a long time and are super cheap for a pond your size youl spend right around 100 bucks. they are between 10 and 20 mil but there so cheap you can buy a couple of them and just through them on top of one another but if you don't cover them in dirt it won't work to well. hope this helps.

Mark:

I wouldn't waste my time with only 6" of clay. I'm of the opinion that if I'm going to have the equipment on site to properly put a clay liner in my pond, I want no less than an 18" thick layer all the way to top, and really, really would like 24" thick layer of properly placed and compacted clay. Not just the bottom, all the way up the sides to a point that is higher than the water level will be. I put properly in bold because there's a right way and many wrong ways to put clay in a pond to seal it.

Now on to liners. Think of a liner as the ONLY thing stopping the water from leaking out from your pond. With that in mind, would you rather go thin or thick? Keep in mind, the liner will be there for as long as you own the pond, and have water in it. Any hole or seam that is not glued together will let water escape.

https://www.btlliners.com/


FWIW, I called around and got quotes for close to $30K to line my pond when I renovated it. I didn't do either, and now am looking at $5K+ for the well plus monthly electric costs to keep my pond full with a well.

Scott,

Isn't that a typo? You're not paying $5000.00 per month in electric bills are you? If so you've been holding out on me. Here I thought you were as poor as me. LOL

Edited the post for clarification. It's $5K+ for the well, then the operating costs on top of that. I haven't figured out the plumbing that would be needed for it either. It has to be freeze proof if it turns off in the winter for any length of time.

JKB, you'd better get crackin' on that running 3 phase on single phase stuff for your property. I'll need that info this yaer!

Thanks for the info guys. So, I guess its better to go big than go home. Does any 1 on this forum use a liner? If so what Mil and how does it hold up?

I would obv. use carpet for a mat under the liner and cover the liner with sand.

esshup, do you recall what Mil was quoted @ 30K?

Cecil, do you have any input on liners?


Thanks again.


Mark

That was a rough quote for a 60 mil liner, but it also was when I renovated my pond in 2008. IIRC the quote was given in 2007.

Liners went up a bit the past couple years. Looking at some old info, a 45 mil x 50 x 100 Firestone EPDM was about 1600 bucks, plus shipping. (I would pick up) New price from the same company is 3,400.00. That's quite a price hike in about 3 years. My only option tho.

I see a few places that are selling EPDM roofing for pond liners. Some claim to be able to "clean it up to be fish safe". I am not sure what the "real" difference is between the two. Probably worth an investigation tho.

JKB, after Cecil posted about it a while back, I checked the stuff in the local big box store. Yep, fish safe. Only 12' widths in stock tho.

ESSHUP- that qoute would have been for what size pond? Aprox, 1 acre?

BROOKTROUT- your goal was a pond 0f 20x50. That is aprox .02 acres.

Need to investigate further tho. Make sure the fish they are talking about are not just KOI.

I really do not know what's going on in this area. Maybe one of our PB Engineers can snoop out the facts and lay it out.

It's the same stuff Phil. Kellen told me he had a friend that worked at the place they make it. Said it was the same exact thing. It's all about marketing and marking up something claiming there's is "fish safe."

The 12' width roofing EPDM liner I bought at Menards says in white letters, "Safe for Aquatic Use."

What I had quotes for is a pond that is irregular in shape, with an island in the middle. Maximum dimensions:

Pond is roughly 270' wide, 300' long, max. pond depth at full pool 22'. Actual surface area is somewhere between 1 to 1 1/4 acre.

Thanks Guys.Is assuming im going to spend betwee 2-3k for the liner if I go with a 45 or 60mil. I assume the 30 mil would not be sufficent and tear eaisly? Does anyone have a 30mil liner installed?

Is it safe for fish that would end up on the dinner table? That's what I would like to know.
I'll dig into it a bit more in the coming weeks and find out what's up! I am not one to take things seriously until I read the "Fine Print"!

I have a bit more complex situation than you do. I too, would like a 100GPM baseline well, but I can only have one well on my property, which has to service all the water needs, from drawing a cup of water to filling a lined pond or tanks.

How many revolutions of a 10HP, multistage well pump does it take to fill a glass of water? Not many at all!

If I have to bang a pump that size to a frequency of 30Hz in less than 1 second, that will be a bit more than a glass of water

Motors are the weak link right now. Piece of cake for most industrial motors. (actually, I am not a big fan of cake. At my sisters birthday last weekend, she was asking everyone what kind of cake they wanted for their birthday. I said, make mine a Blueberry Pie! What a good idea, went all around! (I have 7 sisters and 3 brothers, plus many nieces and nephews) and everyone get's to pick their favorite pie for their birthday. Talk about hitting the jackpot )

Anyway, in an open flow situation for your pond, you won't have to worry about the fine details I am dealing with. I will be making phone calls to engineers at Grundfos in the next several weeks to get more info. Their motors may be able to pull off all that BS I previously stated.

Thanks. let me know what you find out. Even with the rain and snowmelt that happened this past week or so the pond only came up 1/2".

I'd just up the house well and dump to the pond but I don't want to turn on a 5 or 10 hp motor every time the bladder tanks run low if I can run a 3/4 hp motor instead.

I never mentioned bladder tanks

You don't understand the control and performance scenario I am working with, which will be a major issue to understand this.

I thought I did pretty good with the cup and pond analogy, just to give you an idea.

It's a bit on the technical side of life, and unless you know what you are doing, could cause problems.

I was a bit hesitant to even post this in the first place.

Need to do the "Fine Print" stuff for your specific application, and am quite sure you could easily save a buncha bucks in electricity filling your pond. Not Plug-N-Play tho. Needs to be Engineered

I know you never mentioned bladder tanks.

I have them at my place, in fact there are 3 of them all in the same system. The well driller, when he put in the new well put them all in. I had one in the previous system, and one in the box as a reserve. He quoted the job with a bladder tank, and said that if he hooked them all up, the pump wouldn't turn on as much if I were to only use it for the house.

You DID do a great job with the cup analogy.

That's why I'm waiting on your decision, you understand how this 3-phase on a single phase supply system stuff works MUCH better than I do. I figure that if you think it's good enough for your system, it'll be good enough for mine.

Without a bladder tank, does the motor have to kick on each time you turn the water on? We are going to put an artesian well at Aylett to do the house(not built yet) and to goose the pond somewhat. I would be very interested in your process also.

That would be the case Ken. Most (what they call Variable Speed) household systems utilize small bladder tanks, which one would want to do, but they use much smaller pumps, which makes getting a glass of water much easier. The system would have an analog pressure transducer which connects to an input on the pump control. Once you set the pressure in the control, it will maintain that pressure from minimum flow to it's maximum flow when you turn the water on. The motor needs to change speed to do that.

Problem going with a larger well pump, is that the pump motor manufacturers state that you can not run these larger pump motors under the frequency of 30Hz for more that 1 second or you will damage the motor. That's the current drawback for larger well pump motors. You can do that pretty much with any other type of 3 phase industrial motor, just not the submersible well motors.

I hooked up this little 1/2 hp 3 phase motor in my apartment. Pretty much a standard motor that was made in 2007. It's actually running in the pic, and is running off of 240vac single phase. Not an issue ramping the speed from 0-10 Hz over the time frame of 30 seconds. That's a pretty soft start for such a basic motor. Larger motors will do the same. The really fancy ones can play songs!



This is the gizmo that is actually running the motor. The 50.0 on the display is what frequency the motor is currently running at. If I were to run this simple motor in the 0-10 Hz test (which was looped to repeat, over and over) with a Walmart flavored gizmo, that motor probably would have fried within a few minutes.



There is more to this tho. The gizmo running the motor get's it's instructions from another gadget. This other gadget, has far reaching capabilities and can monitor and control thousands of gizmos. There is also a widget, that I can play with from pretty much any place, that can tell the gadget what to do with the gizmos.

My dilemma here, is that the high quality gizmo (not the Walmart type) can easily cradle, with love and respect, the simple 3 phase motor, providing it's not really old. The disclaimers I am seeing, may be that the motor manufacturers automatically assume that you are buying your gizmo from Walmart. I need to get this clarified.

I had to mostly disassemble this. Morph the gadget and widget into a new entity with it's own personality, then surgically implant it on a Roller Coaster to find out what's up! Worked Great! Dwight likes to analyze data. He would probably like the more than 216,000 log's I was sucking off this in a day. Quite a bit of fun!

I know I am not explaining this very well. It's been a pretty crappy week.

I'll have better info later. This is the only example I have with pics.

Next week, I have to get the Chinese and Germans communicating. Funny thing tho, is the China stuff was built in Chicago. You say What!!!

You have had a very tough week. It seems like the good guys die way to young and SOB' live to be a 100. I am interested in your system but proably have have niether the ability or knowledge to set it up. Take care and good luck.

I'll explain more at a later date.

Hey, my Dad is 84 this year and defiantly not an SOB. He is starting to build my youngest brother a trailer so he can haul stuff to and from his new house. The trailer will be great, as usual! I am shooting a couple 330 cu/ft tanks of shielding gas his way next week. He sold all of his equipment due to health, but bought a new little Lincoln mig welder. Works really well for light stuff.

Told my Dad that he could just use my stuff, it's in his garage. Nah, but you need to change the voltage over first, and that is what I was late on, so he bought the other one.

I have the cable and want to flash the firmware on the mig, that's cool! Should make it a bit sweeter, not that it wasn't already sweet!

Birthday party for my Mom Sunday. Gonna be a good time! My Mother passed away 2 years ago, but we celebrate life!

Same thing happened with Ron as my Mother. Treated for Pneumonia for a few months, then they said Cancer, and it was too late.

My health insurance assigned me a doctor, based on location, and this dude is still an intern, still in the profession of Nurse! Pretty sure that I am doomed

JKB, if your new assigned doctor is at a major teaching facility, then he may be fine. He should have a resident mentoring him. If not, then you may be doomed.

Private Clinic indicate anything?

There must be a way to change this.

Not sure. If he's a nurse practitioner working on his MD, then it's pretty common to see them now a days. IIRC, they work in conjunction with a regular MD at the same facility. I have seen my NP several times, and have been happy so far. It's getting far more common to see them as general practitioner's are getting stretched to the limit. I don't see that getting any better.

Obviously not sure how your health insurance plan handles this, but there should be options available for other doctors within their system. You probably were assigned your intern based on your zip code as you said.

JKB, I didn't mean to infer that all people who live to a ripe old age is SOB' but look around at many of the older people on the world's stage. It just seems that too many good people die way to soon. The secret to getting good medical care is to get referred to a specialist. I see a NP for colds and the usual stuff but he knows his limitations. If you don't get better quick get a referral to someone that only treats people with that disease. I have had 4 different cancers and see 5 different doctors for them each year.

NP is the correct term. Due to rising costs, our insurance was recently overhauled and is more confusing than ever. Assignments were made by zip code. One thing that is nice, is my employer covers half the deductible (excluding meds). You really have to know how to work these things tho.

I know what you mean Ken, I was just rambling on.

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I think my option for the well system is to install a storage tank, pump the water to that, then use a smaller pump with a real fancy motor on it to take care of household needs. I have some real crazy ideas for this stuff.

esshup, or anyone,

Here is a link to a pretty decent article about VFD's and pumps.

http://epagepub.com/publication/?i=115577

When you open the link, click on contents in the upper left, then go to page 50.

This may make things a bit easier to understand.

Either my eyes got really bad all of a sudden or it's blurry as heck. I'll keep trying.....

It may be that your internet is a bit slow for the content. I noticed it to be a bit blurry up in the boonies. I think they have a PDF version also. I'll check later tonight.

When you click the link, on the upper right you'll see "tools", click that, then click PDF. It will download the entire issue.

Clear as a bell on my laptop and Nexus 7 at home.

The PDF is much easier to read tho.

The PDF version is blurry in the D.C. area also. It is over my head anyway but the internet is top notch up here.

O.K. The PDF document worked. I read it and mostly understand what they are saying, but don't test me on the material! Also, I don't have a clue as to how one figures out the VFD that would be needed.

What is the slip rating that they are referring to?

So, I need to find a motor that will work on the reduced current that will be supplied, and I need to find a pump that will pump the GPM that I'm looking for at 60%-70% of it's max rating for a >60% energy savings?

Am I doing O.K. so far?

Maybe it's my monitor or something because both are clear as a bell here. Internet is 30M here.

Anyway, I found a couple more engineering manuals online (did I ever mention that I hate Google)

The weak link in submersible well pump motors are the bearings.

The bearings can not function properly at motor speeds of less than 30Hz for specified durations, or you will toast them.

Franklin and Goulds are a straight line ramp to operating speed with no longer that 1 second below 30Hz.

Grundfos is a straight ramp to 30Hz in 3 seconds, then you can do anything you like after that to 60Hz.

Franklin had a disclaimer that their motors are not inverter rated, but will work between 30-60Hz. They also stated that you should not restart the motor for at least 7 minutes after it was turned off.

Grundfos seems to be the best choice so far. You can do a pretty decent soft start within their parameters.

A hard start is where you turn a motor on and your lights go dim for a second or so. That's because it is sucking a whole bunch of juice to get it going to full speed. A soft start gradually gets things going so it slowly applies the juice to the motor. No light dimming effects.

Based on this new info., there is no way a well pump in the 10HP (or even smaller) range could be controlled, due to mechanical limitations, that could draw me a glass of water based on only controlling the motor.

The high end side of things it a totally different story tho.

Maybe a new post should be started, instead of hijacking others

Sounds good to me.

Here ya go JKB!