OK guys Its been FOREVER since I have been on here...
Hope everyone is doing well and had a Good Christmas.


Big issue here:

The Biggest issue of all, my 9.5 acre lake is WAY WAY down!! It is about 2 acres in size down from 9.5 acres when full. I have had Major Major issue with water shed and keeping this pond full for a VERY long time!! For almost 10 years now... Form 2008 through 2010. The pond stayed full!
Now its about 2 acres and about 12 feet down...

I am trying to figure what it would take or how much Pumping equipment it would take to fill this lake from near by Stream. If someone could help me. I would greatly appriciate it.


Thanks for any advice or help that you offer.

Hi there. Check out this recent thread. In it Tums talks about the well he drilled. I am sure if he sees this, he will let you know. Of course you are thinking of pulling it from a srteam, but this might be an option if that doesn't come thru. Lots of folks here talked about their ponds drying up this year..........Jim

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=315047&page=1

WoW! That's a lot of water missing!

Maybe it might be a good idea to have a professional do an "On Site" evaluation.

How about Greg Grimes?

In the area, and a professional! Good Choice!

I know Greg Grime REAL Well.

Give him a call.

Welcome back!

Do you (or have you noticed) a leak at the dam?

How low is the pond from full pool? With that info, I can give you a very rough idea on how many gallons you would need to pump. But, that figure wouldn't take into consideration any leakage from the pond.

Just remember that pumping from the stream might allow some live critters from the stream to enter the pond. How they'd make it thru the pump unscathed, I don't know, but just wanted to bring up that possibility.

Second the motion on calling Greg Grimes. Is there any chance that what you're seeing is part of the dry year? You mention the watershed being an issue - how is the water supply throughout the watershed? Is it inconsistent in terms of the available water? Are other water sources in the same watershed experiencing low levels? Is there any chance a spring is located inside your lake and you are seeing the reverse flow that can happen with springs? Remember springs giveth and also taketh away as the water table drops.

Just a few thoughts and questions to add to the deliberations.

Wow now that you mention it! There ARE some springs under the pond I am quite SURE! This is one of the reason why I think I might need to drain the pond then Fill it in with good clay to seal it off... I Have had this lake for 10 years now and I don't think it should be this low.... even as bad as the drought is..

The lake is 9.5 acres and it is down a say about 10 to 12 feet.

Well the Lake is about 10 years old... When we had good rain in 2009 and 2010 the lake was full going through the stand pipe ! But now the lake is about 10 to 12 feet down!!

But My 2 acre lake is FULL!! I built it on another water shed on the property to help supplement this lake with extra water shed. I built it 6 years ago

May be worth investigating that angle. Springs can become siphons when the water table is low.

Todd3138,


By cover these springs do I cut off my water supply to the pond?

If you plug off the springs in your pond, you will loose that as a potential water source, unless you can figure out a way to externally tap into them. Pumps may be required then.

As JKB said, yes, you'd likely lose them if you covered them over effectively enough. But, they may not be the only or even a primary water source for your pond. If you have streams that flow into it, those are likely a significant water source. If not, the springs may be the biggest supply, but at the same time, if they've never really done the job well enough to keep all 9.5 acres full all the time, then you may not be losing as much as you think. How is your surface drainage for the pond? Is it a larger watershed? Was the pond designed at that size in light of your available watershed? Typically, I believe those sorts of calculations are done to include only surface runoff, not input from springs, though that is certainly not an area in which I have experience beyond my time here on the forum.

I have pondered the idea of excavating a spring down several feet, then running pipe up and away from the pond under the seal through PVC pipe to a level higher than the normal water-line. Fill the spring-hole with gravel and then cap with some good sealing materials. If the spring water-pressure is higher than the water level, it will flow out of the end of the pipe above the water line. If lower when the water table drops, you will only loose water in the pipe. I see this method having no worries about pressure from the spring blowing a clay seal when there is a lot of difference between spring pressure and water in the pond.

Of course that means being able to excavate the spring when the pond is dry, but that is something people could do when digging a new pond and they find a spring.

Nothing to add here. I agree that if there are springs feeding the pond that are below the high water level, that's most likely where the water went.

You could pump more water into the pond than what will seep out thru the springs, but at what price? Plus, the pumps would most likely have to be running continually unless they were really, really big and could pump a tremendous GPM.

Hate to see you problem there Big Pond. Sounds like to me your are in the drought zone that runs all the way back into my area. I only have 1 pond that works off water shed and that is my 3 AC pond (est 22' max depth) that also had covered a couple small sprihgs and no upland water to direct into the pond. Like yours it was full and running out in 2009 into 2010. When we went into a drought faze in Mid 2010 I chose to drain it not long there after. I reworked the bottom again in 2011 / 2012 to make sure I stopped any new leaks as best I could. I had run into this very same problem in the past when drought times would kick in and I put in a high volume well first. I live in an area that is less than 200' above sea level and have alot of underground water. Many years ago when I had your same problem I dug an 8" well 220' deep. I have a 10 HP pump that was originally measured to pump right at 438 GPM (well over 600,000 gallons per day). I have only the well hooked to this electric meter so I can get a serveral cents per KWH break as agricultural useage only. Back in the day I was losing about 1"+ water per day during summer drought. Now I am losing alot less and when I get rain I do not have to even run the well. The same well today would cost you about 15K.
All that takes me to the long road of what I am saying. Basically you have 2 things to do to get out of this problem with a full pond. That is dig a well or rework the pond and hope mother nature provides enough water to cover any loss (in my case I have done both even though the well worked fine by itself). Both in my opinion require getting someone that can help you figure out where you are at and what you need to do. A good pond man (some have mentioned Mr grimes for example) can come out and look at your situation and tell you are really even leaking that bad. Dropping 12' fot your situation in drought times may even possibly be normal and all you would need to do is get a well / water specialist in to tell you what you can do on that end to keep the pond full.
Me personally I chose to go with the high flow well and came back a few years later and reworked the pond at my convienance.

Also to give you an idea on what the well cost to operate to pump to keep your pond full I can tell you this. 1 acre foot of water (326,000 us gal) cost me between $12 to $13 in electric bill. If your whole pond was down 12' over 9.5 acres (over estimation since your leakage is probably more at full pull and you pond should have a slope) and if that is how much water you would have had to pump to keep it full. That would come out around 114 acre water foot. It would take me probably between $1400 to $1500 to pump that much water. That is one of the reasons why I chose the well route first and to rework later at my convienance.

As a side note Along the way I discovered that I can constantly pump 68+ degree water into my pond and extend my fish growing time when my other ponds are cold. Also I can jump start that pond early in the spring when I see the cold weather is coming to an end by pumping in a bunch of warm water. The high volume well gives me alot of advantages others do not have. Several times over the years I have just opened a valve to drain the 3 ac pond. It is something easy to do when you know for about $500 to 700 (depending on the rain you get while filling up).

In the end you are getting sound advice to have someone come out and look to help you make the proper decisions. Also do not be suprised it you get an answer telling you to maybe do both.

Hey Tum's,
Can you post more detailed info about your rig?

I am into energy efficiency, and am interested in the 438 GPM rig.

Please, if you will, include all the Nut's -N- Bolt's that you know are factual.

I am out for holidays posting from A phone now. When I get back Wed. I will post best as I can with detail from my office. For now it is 220 system. 200 amp meter w/ 200 amp box. Wire run underground from there to pump station. Main lever box at station wired into fuse box for lightining
protecttion at well. 8" casing 220' deep. Will see if I can ge t pump model when I get back to office. Scedule 160 4" pipe from pump to surface around 200' . Water only around 10' below surface keeps some of the head pressure down. Mounted at surface on 1" steel free floating plate to allow for give where hits 90 degree turn

Lol getting ill with phone will continue Wed. Sorry for delay. Btw the pump uses right around 250 kwh per day at 9.5 cents per kwh.

Tums,

This is Excellent help and advice!!

I went out there again today and did some scoping around for a couple of hours.. Here are some observations.

1. As I have said before I have 2 lakes... The 9.5 acre lake looks like a disaster while the 2 acre pond is beautifully full to over flowing.

2. When I go to the back of the dam at the very bottom where the stand pipe comes out of the back the old creek channel has about 1/4 inch of
and inch of slow moving water maybe 1/8 of an inch. But for all the ponds I have seen this seems to be on a lot of ponds!

3. When I built this pond 9 to 10 years ago... It seemed like there was some steady flow of water going in the pond.... Now I don't see this could the be drought?


4. There is A lot to picking a lake sight for a LARGE lake. More than just looking where I could put a dam to back up water. It seems the flatter the forest floor is and and lower the dam is the better chance you have at the lake filling up...

5. Tums mentioned a High volume Well and also a Pump. But is't there a risk to a Well pump in that you could drill the well and not get the amount of GPM you want... Isn't this hit or miss really?

6. If what I said is true above, am I better off just pumping out of a near by high volume stream? There is a LARGE stream about 200 yard from the Back of the dam. The dam is 35 feet high, could I pump this water this far?


Thank so much for the responses. I have been battling this for a decade now and am about to just sale the place and start over. The only thing with that is getting a new project permitted by the Core of Engineers.

Lets put it this way... If I could pay 15,000.00 To put in a 450 GPM well and KNOW that it would put out this much water... I would do it in a HEART BEAT!!! and pay the extra 1500.00 in electric bill to run it!! That would be a DEAL for me!!

bp, I am involved in a similar situation as you, but on a smaller scale. I bought my place a year ago with a 1/2A dried up pond. I pumped water from a near-by creek, filled it 2/3, and noticed that I had a leak, pumped it dry, and redid the bottom, and will start pumping again soon. This might not be useful, but here's what I did. My small creek is 300' away and 75' up hill. I ran power from house to creek and 1" pvc (too small) back to the pond. I used a 1hp well pump 24/7 for 3.5 months to get to 2/3 full. Thanks to the recent rains, I am about 20% full, and will either use my same set-up or use a 2" trash pump which would fill it much quicker, but require frequent trip to refuel. My point is that you can fill it back from the stream, it will take some time, but is relatively cheap. I'm just waiting for as many winter showers as possible until I start back to pumping. Could you get a huge pump like Tums suggested, and set it up at the creek?

Well I want to get a big pump back there but here is the issue.. Running power back there... I would need to run 220 at 200 amps almost a half a mile!! How much would that cost I wonder..

That is gonna be some big wire if it's 220 volts! It would be better to run high voltage that far and drop a transformer. Most power companies won't run 2 services to the same address. We had 2 services at our shop, but had a separate billing address for the added service.

9.5 cents per kwh is pretty decent. It's 0.142 up here now, and it's going up

It's not difficult to get 200 gpm up here. About a year and a half ago when I was doing research for another pump project, I ran across a well pump/motor combination that was 87.5% efficient. Motors were truly inverter duty with all the bells and whistles. I can't find it for anything. I thought it was a division of ITT, but didn't see anything like this. IIRC, that division/company was in process of being bought or sold. If I could only jar that brain cell loose

I also hate Google!!!

JKB, when you find it post it. I'll be researching the next few months for a well pump that is energy effecient that's in the 100 gpm range for a 6" casing (I can drill a 6" well 200' deep if needed).

http://www.topoquest.com/map.php?lat=33....omin&size=l


Here is an Areal of the Land and the lake... This was when it was full in 2009 and 2010..

Also check out the Topo and tell me what you think.

Now when viewing this Lake, Keep in mind TODAY it is 1/4 this size! The little pond is full. It might have dropped a foot total, but thats about it.

Just going with the math and Wisdom from Tums. Here is what I come up with.

I am 12 feet down... Right at 9.5 acres of water. That Comes up to 114 acre feet of water.

I multiply this 114 by (326,000 us gal) I get about 38,000,000 gal rounded up! So this is the total amount of gallons I need..

Now lets say I get a pump (Well or stream) of 100 gallons per minute. Doing the math I get about 28 days to fill this lake.. Thats not bad at all! The Million dollar question is. How Do I get a well or pump to pump at LEAST 100 gallons per minute?

Is 100 gallons per minute a stretch??? what 200 gallons per minute?

I've been searching for hours again this morning. I am thinking it got absorbed into another brand. This was an agricultural/industrial unit, 3 phase, inverter duty.

A 4" trash pump could give you aprox 300 to 400 gallons per minute. They move alot of water. You do have to consider how far and how much you lift the water. That will ultimately determine the amount that can be pumped.

Well an interesting developement I have discovered I only have a 7.5 hp pump unless the backup I have sitting on a pallet is different. Any way it is the pump which was pulled from the well (Electrical storm run in on it) when the 438 GPM estimate was made. It is a Franklin Electric Model 2261119020 7.5 hp pump and should be linked back to the information. I know that to absolutly accurate as I read the information of the pump myself this morning.

Edit just got thru talking with the man that put the pump in. My memory has not went bad on me yet. I do have a 10 HP Franklin Electric pump model number 2366529020. So no wonder it seems to me I have been getting more than 438 GPM. I did upgrade when I pulled the other pump many years ago.
Anyway the pipe is not anchored down as it will jump when the force of the water hits the 90 degree turn at the top. Attached to the 90 degree is a distribution box for 3 4" outlets. The middle one is used for the pond as I did not want anymore direction change to slow volume down. After about 1' it runs into a 4" ball valve so I can cut it off to prevent back flow on the pump when I shut it down. Out of that it immediatly change into a 6" dia. schedule 80 sewer grade with a 22 down turn to prevent back pressure into the ground where it is 22 turned back to 6" to 10' drop for 100' (to keep from building back pressure) before splash system into the pond.

Your math is pretty much on target.
Here is another idea for you to think about. I have another pump I have for pumping out of creeks, ponds ect.... It pumps well over 1000 GPM and can run irrigation reels over a 1/4 mile away uphill. It is a modified Berkely irrigation pump made to run off of a tractor PTO. Alot of times when irrigation pumps go bad it is generally the engine and the pump is still in good shape. Best I remember I think I figured it took me around 10 gallons of diesel per water acre moved.

Remember that price is because I got it approved for agriculture usage and the electric company put a meter just for that pump only.

To find out what water you have in your area underground you can go to several peopel. The Local water authority should have some wells drilled to provide for the public and can probably get you going in the right direction. Also check with the local farmer office as they probably can direct you to some farmers that have big wells. Also you can check with the local well drilling services themselves as they generally have a pretty good ides of what can be done in that area. My same set up may not produce the same reults if you have to push water father. remember I am only pushing water about 10' upwards. I just got my numbers on the pump that is in my well and it is a 10 HP that is rated for 170 GPM and I am getting ruffly 3X more due to lack of head pressure. I have to go back and edit a previous post now with my new information.

Check with your local electric COOP. Here I think they will give you the first 5 light poles from the main line for free. Which would get you over half way there.

Also something else you may want to look into is what government / state programs you could qualify for. Here in Alabama right now you can get up to 20% of you total cost of a high volume electric well that can be used for agriculture irrigation purposes on your state tax refund. I think there is also a low int. rate loan program here to help with the financing thru the ASCS office.

I just got through talking with a well company localy here and they are saying the trick is to be able to find a the water... There is no way to know where the water is underground to drill. How did you find your water... They were talking about using a water witch.

Weegie board? Talk to you state geologist and don't waste time on gimicks and superstition!

They like to use a Water Witch as it takes the blame off of them if they miss. Take your faith on superstition, not our fault! It may work on water close to the surface as some people may be sensitive to things, or pick up on vegetation colors or plant life, but 200' down? I HIGHLY doubt it.

I do not participate with water witching and consider it unreliable.

Talked to the local water authority and they gave me a number to talk to a geologist for our area (tons of information came from there). I also called the local well drillers that had drilled wells in my neighborhood. They told me what they knew which was basically they hit water quick and there was plenty of it. The most helpful thing was there was one artesian well drilled in the area. That means there was a confined aquifer present close to me. Most Wells draw from the water table (saturated zone) and have to rely on water replenishing thru the soil. A confined aquifer is like free water pressure from an undergroud water source and is the best. I then decided to drill at the lowest point I could near to the pond keeping atlest 100' away upland (replenshing underground water generally moves the same way above ground water does is what I learned from the geologist). The closer to the water table you are the less head pressure the well will have and it will allow the pump to move more water (learned that from a good well man). I did not get my artesian well like I hoped for but the water table was only about 10' down. I went with a 8" well so I would have more water volume and 220' deep (below sea level)for volume and hoping to hit the confined aquifer. Had a guy come down from Birmingham that done landscaping irrigation systems that matched me a pump to the well. Got the best pricing on my pumps thru John Deere Landscapes.

BTW: I personally do not like the response you got from that person with that drilling company and if it was me I would scratch that person from my reliable information list. They could have been alot more helpful than telling you to cross some wands.

I've conducted a lot of geophysical surveys to identify drill sites for water wells. Once a local dowser was also given a shot and I was amazed at the amount of correllation between our picks. Hundreds of acres surveyed and several of my top targets were also identified by the dowser. Keep in mind we were not working over regional aquafers, but searching for intersections between water-bearing fractures in bedrock - specific spots. Hocus-Pocus? Perhaps...

Nowadays, I work for the state permitting private water wells and other stuff and know all the drillers in the area. Almost all of them like to dowse a property before committing to a spot. Some are more serious about it than others and it doesn't work all the time, but most consider it "another tool".

So I wouldn't necessarily can a driller just because he carries a forked stick or a pair of wires or a nut on a string, but just like hiring any contractor you'll want to check out more than one. Then decide whether to go with the stream or try a well.

Vamez, I had a guy here at the house that'd "witch" with 2 bent coat hangers. He showed me how to do it and it was eerie, but it worked. It'd also show underground utility wires (electric).

If I hadn't of done it with my own 2 hands I'd say B.S. I'm a believer now.

Vamaz, you have perked my curiosity - what geophysical method did you utilize to identify the "water-bearing fractures in bedrock" for drill sites?
What numeric correlation on "dowser" water vs. dry holes"?

Thank you,
George Glazener
Emeritus member- Society of Exploration Geophysicists

George - we were doing VLF surveys. Quality of data was usually the best if we had a fracture trace analysis to work off of.

IIRC, there were 3 locations selected using both methods, but the client chose only one of them to drill. They were hoping for enouggh water to supply a vacation resort up in the Catskills in NY. They got somewhere around 70 gpm from that well, but it was too far away and not enough yeild to use for the lodge. It was right by their golf course though, so they ended up using it for irrigation.

Esshup - it really is a weird feeling. The first time I tried a forked branch, this driller showed me how to hold it correctly and then had me walk over a spot where he was predicting water. I couldn't believe how strongly the branch was being pulled down! If my eyes weren't open, I would have sworn he'd snuck up and was pulling it himself.

One of the things I don't understand about dowsing - and liquidsquid touched on this - is the fact that in cases where the water source is deep, the location where the response can be felt by the dowser is still typically very small. Whether its magnetics or conductivity or whatever that makes dowsing work, a shallow target will be detectable over a smaller area whereas a deeper target will be detectable over a broader area.

I too was a non believer for years until someone gave me some bent steel rods and showed me how to do it, and I must say it has since had a very good success rate. Mind you Iv'e only used it to locate water and electric lines for excavation purposes. But I'm now on the believer list.

1/8" diameter 308L stainless steel TIG rod is my choice. My BIL made an improvement by cutting up some aluminum arrows and making handle sleeves. Everyone has a deluxe set now

The tip section of a light wt fishing pole works well for determining how deep things are.

Vamaz, I continue skeptical of “dowser” methods of water well site evaluation, but admit absolutely no experience. I believe that they may sometimes work in area of abundant shallow waster areas such as Scott’s shallow aquafer ponds, and scarce in my area of no shallow wells where cisterns were of common usage - law of averages.

There are many rock and fluid property variables in Electromagnetic geophysical methods that it would be difficult to differentiate conductive properties except in very shallow strata IMO.

The only documented case of dowsers on this forum IIRC, is DIED’s experience in California. His dowser drilled a dry hole.
DIED is a geologist with extensive experience, the son of a NASA geologist.

Scott, bring your dowser rods to Brian’s place and let’s have some fun around his wells and springs - then we can test them in East Delta County where no shallow wells exist.
I’m bring my map….
George

ps: check the map - Woods County has major aquafer - East Dalta County has zilch - I can douse in those counties - ain't no dumb "dowsers"...

I don't blame anybody for doubting it, it is a phenomenon that I don't think has ever been satisfactorily explained.

JKB - how do you determine depth with the rod tip?

At the risk of alienating some, I will try to use a little logic and common sense. If someone could demonstrate that "witching" actually worked more often than random chance, don't you think that they would have done this? Imagine the money they would make on talkshow appearences alone. Many have tried, all have failed. The experiments are not that hard to conduct, and they have taken many forms. Witching is as good as picking any random spot and drilling in every experiment ever conducted (replicated and blinded). We all believe in things that are not supported by evidence (or refuted by it in this case), and that is OK. Many people play the lottery using a "system" too. If it entertains someone, well that is their choice.

George, like RAH, I've only been shown how to use them to locate utility/water lines. With all the underground aquifiers here, I don't know if there would be one area that is better than another.

Do you have an aquifier map of Starke County, Indiana? That'd be interesting to see.

I'll see if I can make another set and add them to the stuff that needs to be packed for the Texas trip.

Your logic is right on....

This thread makes me laugh at myself. Along the lines of what RAH said, I am completely open to the possibility of an undiscovered 600 lb. hairy primate roaming North America, but I just can't wrap my mind around the concept of dowsing.... How can I accept one but not the other? That's gotta' make you laugh...

Scott, not to bother - I would take your word to the bank!
My thoughts are there are many electromagnetic fields in the earth other than mineralized water - some shallow some deep.

George, now you got me thinking. I'll make a set and see if I can duplicate the results. If I can do it here, then they'll go in the car.

And that is the reason why I say water witching is unreliable in my opinion. I do believe in being able to detect changes in electromagnetic fields. I do believe you may be able to find objects you already know are there somewhere. I however do not believe water witching can diagnose a 500 GPM well (what the phone call was about) from a 50 GPM well. If it can I would like someone to explain to me exactly how?

Next the one experience I had with a Water Witcher on my property did not convience me. I have capped an artesian well on my property that I accidently made years after drilling my 8" well. The artesian well was not strong enough to push water upland to where I needed it. I did not see a need to also let it run the 20' to cross the property line where a neighbor was trying to reclaim wet pasture lands. When I was at a party where a fellow was telling how he could water witch and how good it worked, I invited him to come try it out. I Walked him around the property myself observing to see what happened. Needless to say while his witching was going off at places the confined aquifer (artesian well site) was not enough water to set his witching off. Even more funny was with my pond dry at the time his witching did not do anything next to my nearly 500 GPM well. I personally wrote it off after that as nonreliable.

BTW I never said do not use the drilling service. Just that the man making the comment on the phone was not a realiable source of information (in my opinion) on where to drill a 500 GPM well (which is what the call was about).

The explanation of this would break PB rules, and you hold the tip of the rod

Kinda interesting that one of the members with a birthday today, is a Dowser: TROLL

Oh sure, JKB, toss me a riddle and then change the subject real quick!

Hey Big Pond, sorry this thing spun off on a tangent. I began following this thread because I, too, have a pond that is experiencing a water level problem. I'm tired of fretting about the lack of precipitation and am also considering pumping from a nearby stream.

Whether you go with a well or the stream, please keep us updated. I'm very interrested in what you try and how it works out.

Raliegh called me yesterday. I offerred to come out on MOnday on discount since close by working on a big 3000 acre project.

I did some investigation on google lake sizes are right 9.3 acres and 1.75 acres. The 1.75 acre has 25 acres of waterhsed while the 9.3 has 70-75. It was smart and they run the small pond water into the big lake. The drought would explain a big portion of water loss but not it being down this low. We need to check on the water leak behind the dam by the pipe. That can really add up and be a factor also. I have clients just down the road and there pricey well is producing about 25-40 gals/min, not worth it in my opinion. I suggest using the creek down behind the dam and setting up a pump.

We will let you know if we get out there next week.

Well I plan to start off by draining the pond this weekend. and getting the fish out do to the lake shrining so much.

Then I hope to get a dozer guy to work the bottom some and fill in the old creek channel.

Then I am looking at getting some irrigation piping to pump out of a nearby stream.

I found some pipe on ebay down in Lyons Georgia 2000 feet 5" for 3000 bucks I might be looking into this. just need a way to couple the piping to the pump.

Also after it is drained. I can correct some of the mistakes I made in the past with stocking like:

1. Adding Lime
2. getting a load of shad
3. Not stocking Native BG, but Copper nose only
4. Put Blue cat and maybe not channels

My well was "discovered" by dowsing. I found that I I'm not good at it. I'm generally skeptical of anything like this stuff. I am a former skeptic on dowsing.

About 10 years ago, we decided to have a well dug on our rural property. A well driller came out and asked where I wanted it. I picked a place close to the house and he started. At 500 ft., I had a dry hole and a hole in my checkbook. Several other spots were also dry holes. The hole in the check book ran to about $6,000.

So, I decided to try dowsing. I bent a couple of brass rods and started walking. At one spot, one of the rods swung around but the other didn't. I waked back and forth over the spot several times with no repeated results.

I started calling around and located an elderly man who was a reputed dowser. I picked him up and brought him to my place. About the time I was getting started, a local friend, now deceased, showed up. He was the superintendent of an oil drilling company and we ran cattle together. He was, like me, not a believer in a lot of BS ideas.

The old man used a piece of forked willow which we cut about 100 yards from my place. I told him about my experience with the brass rod and we went there. The stick pulled down and we marked the spot. He went several other places and found another spot. He told me that either I had a lot of water down there or it was close to the surface. The average well around me is at 350 to 400 ft.

He handed me the stick and I walked slowly over the spots. NADA!! Then my buddy tried and the stick pulled down very strongly. We went to the second discovered spot and I actually saw him having trouble holding the stick. It was pulling down so strongly that the bark was splitting. I went down the road and cut a couple more sticks. I tried it again and again I got no results. We found that if I touched the stick when they were doing it, the pulling stopped. When these guys went over the dry hole areas, the sticks didn't pull down.

We drilled a well at the first spot and found water at 70 ft. No more was found at 500 ft. It started out pumping 1/10 gpm and I have been told that they increase flow after the initial check. I pump into a 2,500 gallon holding tank which fills, @ 1/10 gpm, at about 144 gallons per day. I've never rechecked it but it does keep up with our needs. We only weekend there so I doubt that we will ever have a problem. We could time my wife's showers by the calendar instead of the clock and, in a short time, the float indicates that it has refilled so I guess that it might be getting more flow that it started out with.

I'm a former skeptic.

Dave, I wonder if you might get more water if you'd have drilled at the 2nd spot where the stick pulled down harder?

I did some scouting around today on another lake that is built simliar in size to mine. This lake has as much water shed as mine OR LESS and it is almost FULL!

Secondly, I go behind the dam to check for leaks and it leaks MORE than MINE!!!

What gives? I am Baffeld by this....


There must be somthing more to this than water shed on a topo map. It has to be.... how does his pond stay full with similar contsruction, Similar water shed, and similar amount of seepag in the back of the dam??

So someone mentioned about the springs under the dam and how they can cause a back siphon to occure and cause the lake to loose water.... so when this happens does this mean this back siphon of water goes under the dam?

I am truely Baffeld here.

Scott, I've thought about that more than once. I'm kinda saving that one in case my other one ever goes dry.

The spring can go in a completely different direction than your dam. One may have nothing to do with the other. You might be getting more of a loss thru a spring than due to seepeage thru your dam. And this other lake might be losing some thru the dam and nothing thru a spring.

The way I understand springs is that they are like a network of underground rivers. Some big and some small, and they don't follow the same path that surface water follows, meaning that they don't follow topography. Springs underground will follow the path of least resistance, thru cavaties, sand, cracks, etc. and somtimes the come out at the surface if thats the easiest way. You can also dig down into the ground and hit one and up comes the water because now that makes it easier for it to travel. BUT, if you fill that spot with abunch of heavy water ontop of the spring, the spring can no longer push up and instead the heavy water will want to push down into that underground vein.

Fish n Chips,

thanks for you help on this... Let me ask you something.

8 year ago before I built the pond. Way up stream in the creek I have some granite rock. Around this rock is where the spring of the "Creek" that supposedly fills the lake. That area had a pool of water. Now for some strang reason it is gone... Or least it is way down. Why is this??

Also I notice the stream before that lake was there use to go under ground alot. Could this be an impact?

Now this spring that is around this granite rock is not part of the pond. It's at the head of the stream that flows into the lake.

By the sounds of that BigPond, that spring is/was up higher than your pond. I can't imagine that spot being the problem to your pond leaking. There's probably some other spring down in your pond basin. Hard to really evaluate it unless your physically there to see it all.

This one you are talking about up higher than the pond can be affected by droughts too. If the drought is bad enough the underground water resevoirs can start drying up too. Another possibilty is that the source of this spring was cut off somewhere else by digging, trenching, well drilling, etc. This could have even happened somewheres a longs ways off from that spot too. Maybe even a mile away. As it has been said, it all depends.

I'll throw out another idea in regards to that spring. It may be that in digging/making your pond the travel route of that upper spring was disturbed/cut off, even if it was at a lower level. Before digging the pond, the easiest route was for the water to come out of the ground at a higher place and now it comes out( and vice versa... can leave) at a lower area because it became the path of least resistance ( opened up a vein).


You say that this stream where the pond is now used to go in and out of the ground..can it have an impact? My guess is absolutely!!!!!!

These are just my guesses at all this, and should be looked at by a professional walking over the site. The more opinions you get, the better. Compare them all and choose the one that makes the most sense to you.

I agree Raliegh you need to have it looked at before dropping money on it. I think your plan might work but then again best to have it looked at. I again will mention the discounted rate while in the area. Form this survey we will know more on if you need the soil sceintist or hyrdologist to come on board. If you want me there while in the area please notify by email asap, leavign for there at 515 Monday am.

Sorry it will be after the fish removal but that will not matter for the most part on evulation. Good luck this weekend on the fish removal that is a choir in itself.

I am sort of afraid this weekend because I do not know what to expect as far as daring and fish removal.. yeah greg lets talk abut it.. Let me call to tomorrow night after This SCARE task of pulling the plug on this lake...

Hopefully I can get pictures... Stay tuned..

Well today was a disaster... because I did NOTHING!! I pulled and pulled and pulled and could not get the gate open at the bottom of the stand pipe and could NOt lift the gate... Even rigged a pulley and a rope and nothing i could not lift it open...... Keep loosing on this looks like.... Stay tuned for more drama..

Mike Otto had an article in the magazine a year or so ago about valves in the outlet pipe. IIRC he said that if they weren't opened and moved around once a year they tended to stay closed........

Keep your chin up brother, things will start going your way.

Sir, if you have a boom pole for a tractor, you may be able to lift it with the 3 pt. hitch. Put the chain on really tight and raise the pole with 3 pt. hitch. A very slow process and you can bend the pole but it is a strong lever.

Be very careful using a 3-pt hitch boom to lift stuck objects, lest you pop really high wheely!

Just chain the front of the tractor very short and tight to truck or something similar.

Making a bit of headway. Have several engineering manuals (the fine print) from 3 of the top dogs. The pump ends all look pretty decent, it's the motors that are the weak link. Discounted two brands as "toast" in under 5 seconds (said they can't handle it) Another brand has a pretty decent industrial motor, much better efficiency, but not super great compared to other type industrial motors. Promising thing, is this may be able to dance in Vector Land!

The work continues!!!

Good! It'll be interesting to see what you find out.

OK I have been doing some research on the drought where the pond is and it seems that. This area was the WORST area for the drought! It was far worse than the are where this other pond is that is full. So here is my thing I have 2 ways I con go.

1. I can draining the pond and cover up all the springs in the creek channel.

OR

2. I could spend money on Piping and a pump and electricity down at the sight and start pumping.

Which would you spend the money to do? any advice?

Me personally I chose to spend my money on the water source first since I knew that was a 100% way to keep the pond full. I later rewoorked at my pace. I went this route because there was no 100% way to know if I would stop the leaks. It has paid off because the first rework did not stop the leaks and I was also able to have a water source during the drought.

I do not know if you are interested or not but there is a big 3 day construction and farming auction coming up Jan 31 thru Feb 2 in Dothan Al.. The auction generally has a good bit of Irrigation and piping in it. I have picked up a good bit up metal & pvc pipe there over the years for a good price. The last couple of years I have bid live internet bidding thru proxibid after going down going down and looking at what I might want.
http://www.deancoauction.com/auctions.html

You'v been a BIG help Tums!

Let me ask you something.... After you re-worked the bottom of your lake. What changes did you see in your pumping bill and the rate at which the Lake stays full now?

Before I had to pump atleast 1 day a week ($25 at my cost and around 2 water acre feet) even with normal rain and after first rework it went to about 1 day ever other week with normal rain. After I reworked it a second time I only have to pump when the rain fall is below normal which was $36 worth in Dec 2012. I can not count Nov 2012 as I pumped alot of water to keep the pond water temps up during cold snaps to help extend my warm water fish growing season. My water temps remained above 68 degrees until mid Dec..

I agree with Tums on securing a good water source first, if you can.

Tums, are you running a VFD with your pump? The first motor you posted was 230vac single phase. The second motor was 200vac three phase. The way you described how it starts, it sounds like a line starter. Just curious.

Tums what was the rework you did on the first go around and what was the rework on the second go around? What did you miss on the first rework?

Tough decisions ahead for you BigPond.

Just my two cents worth. If it was me, I would do some ground work/sealing first. Reason being is that your pond is close to empty, so that makes it like starting all over. Why fill it up now (at a monthly cost ), drain it and do work later to seal it. I agree with them above that you want a good water source, and you know now that runoff isn't enough. So I think you will need to do the pump anyway. I personally don't like the idea of needlessly losing water when you are paying for it.

BigPond, Is the current water level stabilized? And if so, is there a place around that water's edge that looks like it is seeping? Have you been able to get anybody there to look at the situation?

JKB no VFD is being used.

Big_pond The first time we did not remove all the stumps in the upper end. The second time ran over everything again to pack and removed the stumps in the upper end and packed those holes. There was like a liquified quick sand under the stumps. After the first time we where still losing over 1" a day. Right Now I have lost about 3" over the last month with what rain we have got.

Fish N chips Just so you understand the logic I used behind the decision when you are like I was (and I think Big Pond maybe also). When you have to depend on water shed it may take a very long time to fill a pond up. If you rework it first and you may even be forced into doing a water supply just to fill the pond back up. The pond is always going to be losing water thru natural means (evaporation and such) and the fact I have never seen a 100% leak proof earth dirt pond. If you can do the water supply first you may find out that the money you where going to spend for reworking will supply you water for a few decades. Also When you do get ready to rework the pond you can fill the pond alot quicker. The fact I can drain my 3 acre watershed pond and fill it in less than 3 weeks with no rain made me very happy I went water supply first.

Edit: I would have never filled up as my upland water shed coefficent dropped when the pastures where converted back into forest. I do not get near the shed I used to.

Yes it is a TOUGH decision. The thing I am trying to figure is... Am I really loosing THAT much water????

As I had in the other post. For the past two years we have had 74 inches of rain and according to research we have had 110 inches of evaporation. It would stand to reason that I should be down 3 feet due to evaporation, in stead of 10 feet!

But lets reason here... I am not loosing an inch a day, The dam was VERY Well built with a GOOD core(keyway). But when I don't really have much coming in or very little then the amount of seepage i have is working against me. But here is the thing I keep hereing, "All pond have some seepage" becuase al dirt seeps water. I can tell you this lake does not have anymore seepage then any other ponds I have studied this size.

You thats interesting... i converted my 40 acre Up land to Pasture from Cutover land. It would stand to reason I should get more shed.

One thing to Keep in mind my pond was in the WORST part of the drought for 2011 and 2012... When I compared this to another 10 acre lake in 3 counties over, the drought was not NEAR as bad...

When I go to the back of my dam at the VERY bottom at the old stream bed where the pipe is coming out, there is a trickle of water comeing out running down the stream... Can this be stopped?

Fully agree with you on your thinking. The main point being is you have to sit down and figure out which solution is the cheapest for the duration. I probably should have said it that way. If it would cost 10,000 to seal and you can fill it for 5,000 for its duration...you got to go with the cheaper. By the sounds of it, I think the cost for the pump set-up is going to be needed no matter what. So you could take that amount out of the equation, and just deal with operating cost of pumping versus sealing cost. To me, both of these would be hard to get down exactly because of so many variables. Makes the head spin. And yes, sealing would not fix normal water losses, just major ones.

What I was getting at with the seepage by the water line area "inside of your pond basin area" is that it might be a very likely spot where the leak is the worse. If you had such an area, it might be a place to concentrate on instead of a "big fix".

Well I really can't say there is one place where the water is coming out. Or is there any level where the water is coming out the fastest or slowest. I do see water coming out of the 'old creak' channel at the very bottom of the dam.
But this amount of water I see is less than what I see on other ponds this size...BUT with no water coming in its ALOT..

Ok. Lets back up here a bit and I will try explaining what I am thinking in a different way.

You have water coming out on the backside of the dam. This amount of water leaving is greater than what water is coming into the pond. That "might" tell you that there is a spring flowing into your pond that you are not seeing, probably under the current water level. If you have that great of a spring coming in, it could be the place that water can go in a reverse direction once there is a lot of water in the pond (from the pressure of weight). Thus you could be losing water thru the dam AND thru this spring.

One way to find this spring(s). First, walk around the entire perimeter of the pond at the waters edge. Look for the slightest trace of water running into the pond. If you find any, follow it back to its source and mark it. These would be areas to concentrate on sealing. You might have several of these areas around the pond that would then add up to be the same amount of water that you see leaving the backside of the dam. If you don't have these springs around the edge of the pond, then it "might" be under the current water level. Then proceed to drain the water.

Pump/drain the water out. Keep an eye on ANY area that seems to keep trickling water back in the pond. Scout the edges as said above. Mark these to fix. You may not have to take all the water out to find these. They may be only a foot under the current water level, but they may also be at the very bottom. In regards to the water that comes out behind the dam, you might even be able to tell at this point where that water is leaving the pond from the inside. Thus fix that too. After all this is done, pump it full of water. You will probably have to pump on a regular basis because it seems obvious that you do not have enough rainfall to keep it full.

A WHOLE OTHER APROACH: Get several pond builders out there to give you qoutes on the cost of sealing/fixing the problem. Install the pump and fill the pond. You get the qoutes before filling it so the contractors can see the situation. Figure out how much it costs you per month for keeping it filled. Figure out how much water is a normal loss. With these numbers you have what is needed to determine if it is cheaper to drain and seal the pond, or just keep filling it with the pump.

I am by no means a dirt mover/pond builder. What I am saying here is just my common-sense approach to how I might fix the problem. There might be alot better ways to do this. Hopefully others can tell you what that might be. Sorry for the long winded reply. Just hope its thorough enough to help.

Fish n chips good post, like you I think big pond is going to have to get professional on site advice and then decide what route to take.

4 pages ago, I mentioned that!

Thread turned out pretty good tho!

JkB Yep, a couple of us mentioned that on page 1.

Some of us want to try to do-it-yourself. I myself for one. When you want to do it yourself, you have to start learning somewhere. Most of the time it takes alot of work by others to get me to see the light, but when I do it makes all the hard work getting there that much more rewarding....

And then sometimes you go thru all the work, and still find out you need a pro.......

And after it's all said and done realize that it would have been cheaper in the long run to hire a pro, and would have started to see the results quicker.

Been there, done that.......

We have one particular customer who likes the DIY aspect on his projects. He wants to do a chunk of it, and that is OK. He now has 6 unfinished projects, and the oldest two were started 17 months ago. The newest 4 are about 9 months old. He'll spend a thousand bucks to make something that cost a hundred bucks to buy.

Think he is saving any money

He mentioned that on the next one, he would like to do the programming and develop the screens

I'll be retired by then, so he will have to do it

Yep, and that it why I do not just simply post go see a pro & feel like I am done. I see you and I pretty much feel the same way on trying to help someone that is asking for help about possibly doing something. There is a reason I own my own equipment with NOT FOR HIRE displayed.

I can relate to the person you mention very well.I do alot of things that save me money and I do things that also cost me more money. I own my own equipment for pond building with NOT FOR HIRE displayed. It would have been cheaper for me to hire someone and watch. It would be alot cheaper for me to Charter a Boat to go offshore fishing instead of owning my own. I did probably save 75K on being my own contractor on my house. There is a method to some of the madness, but I will not go there.

I know all about madness, and methods thereof!

Big POnd no offense I have given all the free advice I can without visting the site. Not only are our prices for consults lower than most and have diagnoised about a hundred leaks over the years, I was able to get the price way down since in the area. Too bad I was not able to look at this site that is about 2.5 hours away when only 15 mins away.

You guys have given great advice as well. Raliegh I wish you the best with a bad situation again let us know if you want our involvement. If the client on the other side of Lake Oconne moves forward on his lake construction I will let you know if you like.

Well the only reason was that I had not accomplished what I needed The weekend prior. I thought it would not make much difference being that I had made a failed attempt. At this point I am trying to figure out how to get the water out like I told you I would. The only thing I know to do at this point is to swim at the bottom and try to pry open the Shear Gate open with a screw driver.

When do you think you would want to come out again?

Just flip me an email but dont see an opening until February and have to charge the $250 in travel. If the other client gets me back out I will for sure give heads up so you can piggy back and save that money. With all this rain it has probably risen quite a bit.

Is it only me, or does this sound like a REALLY BAD idea?

I would save my life, and go rent/buy a 4" trash pump. Get the water down to the pipe level and try to open it. If that don't work grab a cutoff torch. Might also be able to rig up a siphon to do it instead of a trash pump.

Do not try that as it may well be a fatal mistake.

Not knowing what shear gate you have. Could you not just rig something up external (out of water) to operate it? They usually come with these operating devices.

It would be a bad idea to swim under water and open it up. Even trying to crack it a bit with a screwdriver, something could go wrong.

Not like you are dealing with a stopper in a bathtub!

Many people drown each year noodling for catfish, because the catfish is more powerful than they are under water. You say, what's that got to do with it? People are weaklings under water, not our element.

Stay Safe!!!