I have been reading as many posts as possible to answer my questions about clearing muddy water. I have also visited numerous websites and heres what I have ascertained.

Alum is the best way to clear water but it raises the ph dramatically the fastest. Lime will also have a quick reponse. Gypsum has a much slower effect and the results are shorter lived resulting in more applications.

The combination of Alum and lime seem to be the fastest but most dangerous relating to fish kill. Here is the link I am find most informative, http://www.ehow.com/way_5572842_amount-pond-water-treatment-system.html.

Although I have looked on the www.LSUAGCENTER.com site they are vague in there attempt to help. The closest I can get to me in Albany, La is Mississippi, pehaps ewest or someone near my location can give me some clarity.

30 pounds Alum per acre foot applied in a slurry sprayed over the surface, this should be buffered by 13 pounds of hydarted lime per acre foot. From my calcutations and pond size 1/8 arce. 30# alum / 8 = 3.75 pounds and 13# Hy Lime / 8 = 1.625 pounds.

My current ph is around 6 which IMO is below the needed 7 - 9.5 level.

My situation is that before adding the areator my ph level was a constant 9.5 with water clearity of about 2 ft. After adding the areator the clearity dropped to about 3 inches. After I added the fish 9 days ago the I checked the ph it is below 6.5 and the fish are inactive. I am at the junction where health of fishes intersects time to react.

If I do nothing low ph and clearity will surely have adverse effects and the possibilty of loosing to a fish kill! If I add the Alum and Lime I could loose the fish to ph shock! At this point there is only a $30.00 investment in cost of fish and in hindsight I should have checked ph and clearity before the purchase. We all know the value of hindsight, Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda, but I didn't b/c lack of knowledge.

I have built a platform from 4" pvc drain pipe and a 3' x 3' peice of FRP.I drilled some 2" holes in the pipe to release the trapped air and allow it to sink to the bottom. I am going to mount the areator to the platform in an attempt to lessen the amt of clay turbitity picked up from the bottom.

After that I plan to mix 1/2 the Alum in a slurry in a 55gal drum at the pond's edge, put in a sump pump with a garden hose attached and spray the surface of the pond. Ph level will be checked before and during this application. In another 55 gal drum I will mix 1/2 the Hy Lime. In a post by Bob Lusk on Application Methodology I will monitor the Alum and watch for clumps while checking ph levels every 20 minutes. Should the level rise above 7.5 I will begin the Hy Lime to buffer the Alum reaction to ph. I feel it would not hurt to have a rise from below 6.5 to 7.5 or 8.0.

Gurus, Pond Gawds and Water Wizards does all this sound do-able as a solution NOW or should I wait to see what will happen next? I am afraid the end result may be Death by Ignorance on my part, just by which means?

Suggestions, opinions and options very much needed and appreciated.

hd82

hd82, the alum actually lowers the ph, making the pond more acid. Since it is already pretty acid, just put the quicklime in 1st, then the alum. Use a little more than 1/2 lime per unit of alum and the pond will get to more neutral for a while. Long term, this fall add 2 or more tons of ag lime in and around the pond. Next spring, the ph and hardness will be better. Depending on the average depth and your depth of visibility, probably about #50 alum and #30 hydrated lime should do the trick. It is sort of like all or nothing with alum. If the 1st try doesnt do the trick, a little more may. Once the electrical charge is great enough that the particles stick together enough that they sink, then the pond will clear in a couple of days.
Dont be afraid of the alum, just always neutralize it with quicklime.
Good luck.

Bugermeister, thanks for your response. I have purchased the Hy Lime from a local feed store today but as for the Alum all I could find is crystal from a pool supply. I quess I should not be trying to do this on Sunday and surely not try to buy Alum from city feed and seed stores. I will contact a feed and seed in the country (outside the city) on monday as I am all nut sure they have a better understanding of what I am attempting to do.

I know from my readings here and on other websites that the Hy Lime will stop the drop in ph from the Alum, but what will raise it to the desirable 7.5 to 9.5 needed for a healthy pond?

In the event I can't find Alum in a powdered form will the crystals dissolve enough to be sprayed?

hd82

Dont know about crystal alum. Not familiar. Make sure you are getting aluminum sulphate, incorrectly referred to as alum. You should be able to get it in 10# bags. You may have to get larger quantities ordered. As I wrote, long term solution to lack of alkalinity/hardness thus lower ph is ag lime which will take several months to have the desired results, but will be help for 2 or 3 yrs. depending upon the amount of acid rain and runoff.

Burgerm what I did find in the feed store is Hy Yield Aluminum Sulfate in a 4 lb bag, http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/product/hi-yield-aluminum-sulphate-4-lb-bag. Will this work? From what I gathered from the ehow website all i need is 3.75lbs since 30lbs will treat 1 acre foot.

I'm not doubting your knowledge by any means since this is all new to me, 2 tons of Ag Lime in a 1/8 acre pond sounds like a lot.

Looks like you are mixing a area measurement and a volume measurement. Your pond is 1/8 acre of surface area, correct? An acre foot is a volume measumnet of how much water is in your pond. So you shouldn't be dividing the amount you apply by the surface measure, enstead you should be using the volume measurement. Do you know how much acre feet of water your pond holds? What is the basic shape of the bottom? There are only estimators that do this for you.

here is what I bought from the pool supply,

http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Water-Clarifiers/Alum-5-lbs/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:100040/I/14070

the label just say it contains aluminum sulfate

The deepest part of the pond is where the ladder spans across water which is about 7 feet constant and 9' when pond is copletely full. The rsst is between 4 and 6'

The calculated surface area on the goggle planimeter website is approx 5,500 sq ft.

So at the most I'd guesstimate 280,000 gallons of water when full, but possibly a little less going by the information given. (eyeballing the pond bottom from pics is iffy at best)

From what I read acre foot is width times width times avg depth. I know from Google Planimeter the sq ft is approx 5,500 to 6,000. Just by est lets say the avg depth is 6', 6,000 times 6'= 36,000 cu ft. one acre ft from the website is 43,560 cu ft. 36,000 cu ft divided by 43,560 is .8264. I am correct? 30# alum per ac ft times .8264 = 24.79 lbs? And 13# Hy Lime times .8264 = 10.74 lbs

Sorry I don't have the math skills I need as I am a product of the La. Public school system, graduate Class of 1973!

should be width times length times avg depth

But you are getting your measurements in feet/cubic feet.

1 cubic foot = 7.48051948 US gallons

43560 cubic feet is one acre foot of water, approximately 325851 U.S. gallons

This from the ehow website:
Amount of Alum to Use in a Pond Water Treatment System
By Richard Hoyt, eHow Contributor
updated: October 26, 2009


Pond water dirtied by particles of suspended clay can cause numerous problems. Fish should be able to see for at least a foot. The fish population will decrease if the visibility is less than a foot for most of a year. There are several ways to combat turbid water. One of them is the addition of aluminum sulfate, alum, which turns particles of clay into lumps that settle to the bottom. But how much alum should you add to the water?
Check the Water
Ponds can be muddied by livestock, carp, bullheads or crayfish that feed on the bottom. Ponds muddied by heavy rains or flooding should settle out in about a week. To check the degree and persistence of the muddiness, collect a jar of water from the pond. Suspended clay silt that doesn't settle to the bottom of the jar within a week indicates a problem.

Amounts and Application

The amount of recommended alum in treating pond water varies slightly. The Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks says that alum is acidic. If the pond water is acidic (low pH) or is soft, first add about 20 pounds of hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) to each acre-foot of water---the volume of water, 43,560 cubic feet, that will cover 1 acre to a depth of 1 foot. To determinate acre-feet, multiply the width of the pond in feet times the length times the average depth.

Dissolve the alum in water. Using small boats, quickly spray about 50 pounds of alum for each acre-foot of water. Do this on a calm day. Wind will cause waves to break up the mass of alum, preventing it from settling.

The Ohio State Department of Natural Recources says if the level of pH drops below 7, then add 50 pounds of hydrated lime for each surface acre. Ohio recommends 25 to 50 pounds of alum per acre-foot. An initial treatment 25 pounds per acre-foot should clear the water in a few hours.

If there is no change after one day, add another 25 pounds per foot acre. The Ohio resource managers say the best way to do this is with a sprayer in a small boat. In large ponds, pour the alum into the prop wash of the boat's outboard motor.

The Mississippi Department of Wildlife Fisheries and Parks tests four 1-gallon containers of pond water, adding 1 tbsp. of alum mixed with water to the first, 2 tbsp. to the second, 3 to the third and 4 to the fourth. The containers are checked 12 hours later. The container with clear water at using the smallest amount of alum determines the application for a particular pond. For each tbsp. used,
Mississippi adds 30 pounds of alum and 13 pounds of hydrated lime per acre-foot.

The Virginia Cooperative Extension service recommends 150 to 300 pounds of alum per acre. Low acidity rates of soft water should be countered by a ratio of one part alum to half part limestone. The chemicals should be sprayed or poured into the prop wash.


Read more: Best Way - Amount of Alum to Use in a Pond Water Treatment System | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5572842_amount-pond-water-treatment-system.html#ixzz0y1uhKeWd

This site says nothing about gallons, other sites do not either. If gallons is what I should be considering than I must rethink my plan. example is that it takes 1 tbs to clear one gallon of pond water than it stands to reason that for 36,000 cu ft times 7.48051948 = 269,298.70128 gallons times 1 tablespoons?

At this point I should just let the fish die and fill in the hole as I am truly out of my area and so confused I should cut my loses.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion with surface area and acre ft or cu ft or cu ft / gal, I think I got that right.

hd82

OK, I said #50 alum, the math says to add #30 , but is very vague.My guess is that you will end up adding the 50. It also says to add #20 of quicklime before doing the alum, just as I stated, due to fact that you already have acid water. The 2 tons ag lime is not overkill and will look like a small amount when applied. It is very heavy crushed and ground rock. I see a lot of pines, therefore you will always be battling acidity. The more ag lime you put down, the longer you can go without re=applying it. Nearly impossible to add too much. Note that I said the 2 tons goes IN and AROUND the watershed.......Just go for it. My pond is near McComb, so very similar with acid. I used 100# alum and #60 quicklime. for about 4 acre ft. 25 to 30 may do it for you. If your visibility is 6 to 8 inches measured with a white coffee cup.

Like Burger says, visibility measured by a white coffee cup. You'd be amazed at the difference between what you presume to be the visibility vs. measured using a white object on a string that is marked for measurement.

You're getting the hang of it, acre foot means one acre a foot deep in water. Don't give up, once the turbidity is cleared, it's a lot easier to keep it cleared.

You may think lime is expensive, and it is when bought in 50# bags. Call the local co-op or look in the phone book for fertilizer or farm fertilizer. They can deliver it in bulk VERY cheaply.

When I bought this place the pH of the soil was so outta whack that I had to apply 1 ton per acre for 2 years in a row just to get it back in the normal range.

See this

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/108/

hd82, yu don't need to be that precise when it comes to applying Alum (AlSO4)

Got back to the pool suppy place and get a free water sample anaysis too. I'd like to know your alkalynity and total hardness. It sounds like you could benefit greatly from a few tons of Ag lime.

By the way, Powdered or granular Alum will both dissolve in clear water at a rate of 1 pound Alum per gallon. If using pond water, make it 1 pound Alum per 2 gallons of water.

DO NOT mix the Alum and Hydrated lime together....it forms plaster!

I called the feed and seed in Ponchatoula, La near my place in Albany. They have Hy Lime in 50# for $9.20 and Aluminum Sulafte in 50# for $33.40. Called the one in Hammond, La, 5 miles west of my place, Hy Lime 50# 8.50, had no idea what Alum was and did not have Aluminum Sulfate.

I bought 5 1 gallon clear plastic jugs for samples, I'll try to get up there tommorrow. When I go to Ponchatoula feed to get the Hy Lime and Al Sulfate I'll inquire about Ag Lime by the ton.

Guys I'm sorry I went off the deep end yesterday with the comment about letting the fish die and fill the hole. I am just getting a bit overwhelmed with wanting to get it right this time.

Rainman I asked about a rest kit when I purchased the Alum, I asked for ph, alkalanity, hardness, nitrite and nitrate. The guy told me I had to buy individual chemicals to test each, they did not have a kit to do it. They had ph and alkalinity kits but not with hardness,

At this time I'm looking on the net for a scale to measure grams as the link ewest said to look at. Not to belittle ewest or the link but I think I will stick with the ehow site that says to use one tbspn per gallon then calculate that to pounds. Just seems eadier without having to buy a gram scale.

Thanks Rainman

hd82, That is very good pricing on the Alum, and a fair price on the lime.

Water tests and visibilty results are in. I am color blind so I decided to let those that aren't let me know their opinion.









The white coffee cup on a string was only visible to depth of 7" to 8". I did this three times in three different locations to be sure I got it right.

I also bought 5 clear plastic jugs for the Alum,I fill each jug with pond water and also a qt mayo jar to use as a control, jugs number I thru 5. #1- one tablespoon, #2 - two tbsp, #3- three tbsp, #4 - four tbsp, #5 - five tbsp. By the time I was finished adding the Alum #1 was clear about 2" from the top and #2 about 1/2". I will check when I get up for work, that will be at 1:30am and try to take some pics.

At this time please give me your opinions of what's going on with my water.

Thanks

hd82

looks like you have a lot of surface algae which isn't related to the clay turbidity.

If you go with the alum, always use half as much hydrated lime.

Aricultural lime can help to keep it clear for years to come.

What about the hardness and other things on the test strip? Will the Alum and Hy Lime correct these?

I asked at the feed store about Ag Lime, they only sell in 50# bags, she did give me the name of Dykes that serves the Florida Parishes, I'll have to look them up to see who they are and if they can help. Any connections in South La you know that do Ag Lime by truck load or tons?

hd82

The test looks a little different than one would expect. It shows absolutely no calcium carbonate, but a little alkalinity from something and the ph actually is surprisingly high. Looks pretty good. Still use 1/2 as much lime as alum. With some slow acting ag lime this fall, you should be in good shape.

Folks, the Florida parishes means former West Florida strip way back when. For those who are American history challenged.(that would be me) My memory was jogged only a few yrs. ago, when I asked about a tow boat company in La., named Florida Towing.

hd82, the only use for HYDRATED lime here is to neutrilize the PH of the Alum. Hydrated lime on it's own would kill your fish pretty quickly from shock and it's calcium benefit is short lived. AG lime is the way to go for increasing alkalynity from calcium and overall water hardness.

Thanks guys, the water cleared in jug #1 - one tbsp of Alum. I'll check with strip when I get back home later this morning just for my own knowledge of what the reaction was from adding the Alum. I'll also add 1/2 tbsp Hy Lime to the solution to see what happens to the ph.

Burger, the addition of the history is greatly appreciated as not many people know about parishes, its what everyone else calls counties. If memory hasn't failed me there are 64 parishes in La.

Until later thanks again.

hd82

Bugermeister,
I'm glad to here that the levels aren't as bad as you thought. even with all the pines. When I did the dirt work around the pond I made sure everything slopes away from the pond and not into it. Also the ground here is so hard that when my well was dug, 580ft, the man burned up 4 drill heads and it took 9 days to drill. He said that he had burned one or two bits on well over 600ft but never 4 in 580.

The only water drop I get is from evaporation. It rained 3" to 4" a day for 5 days last year and the water only saturated 2". When I dig here I use a pick ax.

The gears just don't stop turning! I would like some feed back on a plan for applying the Hy Lime and Alum.

The day before I go the pond, Friday afternoon

1) Place two 55 gal plastic drums in the bed of my truck
2) In drum #1 mix Hy Lime and fresh water at a rate of 1 lb
to 1 gal
3) In drum #2 mix Alum and fresh water at a rate of 1lb
to 1 gal

When I get to the pond, Saturday afternoon

4) Put generator in bed of truck
5) Upon arrival at the pond add enough fresh water to both
drums and mix to a viscosity thin enough to spray
6) Drop in sump pump with garden hose attached in Hy Lime.
Hose will have 10'- 3/4" pvc attached with spray head
7) Turn on aerator to help circulate pond
8) Start generator and plug in sump pump
9) Have my brother drive around pond as I spray Hy Lime slurry
10) After all the Hy Lime has been dispensed turn off aerator
11) Move pump to Alum drum and repeat the process until drum
is empty

I'm hoping this will speed the process of adding the chemicals with the least amount of stress on the fish.

Would there be any adverse effect of the Hy Lime or Alum by dissolving them the day before application?
Would the Hy LIme just turn to a hard clump in the bottom of the drum?
Would the Alum be spent or less potent?

Donald

Donald,

If you try to mix early, the lime will only partially dissolve and the alum will turn into a block in the bottom of the barrel.

Second, DO NOT apply the lime first---apply it after the alum treatment or alternate the applications and always apply the lime over where you applied the alum. (Alum is relatively slow to change PH where the H lime is virtually instant in action and could kill the fish from PH shock)

Third, TAKE your time! This is a slow proccess and accuracy is imprtant. Speed will cause MORE stress to your fish by reducing the needed acclimation time.

Fourth, apply both products over the deepest areas first in a circular pattern working outwardly toward the shorelines. This allows the fish escape areas to avoid the PH changes and is very important.

Fifth, Spread the Alum evenly and proportionatly over the water----more lime/alum over the deeper areas than the shallow.

Sixth, leave the aeration off!!!! Circulation will make the Floc particles break up and can reduce or stop the whole process. Leave the aerator off at least 24 hours---48 would be better. Both the lime and the alum are flocculants.


Remember, the Alum will fall through the water column adding clay as it falls. The less evenly or less proportionate, the less effective it will be.

Again, take your time and don't rush.

Good luck!

You will want to add a shut-off valve to your discharge pipe to prevent wasting the alum/lime.

I was just looking for a way to make sure all of both products were thouroghly dissolved before beginning the process.

The Hydrated lime will readily dissolve in water, but the Alum never truly dissolves, it becomes a slurry and will need to be stirred a lot at first and then occasionally during application. The Alum slurry will always have a few stubborn granules but your sump pump won't have a problem.

I wonder more if the pump will be able to develop enough pressure to spray the needed distance from the shore. The best "spray pattern" is a fan shaped spray.

I personally use a boat equipped with a boomless sprayer to clear client ponds. A small gas powered trash pump with the outlet necked down to a 1/4" pipe nipple tat has the outlet end smashed nearly flat and closed works well also.

I played around with it yesterday at my house in the city. I reduced the 1-1/2" outlet from the pump to 3/4" hose fitting, then attached the 50' hose and a garden fan spray nozzle. Then put the pump in a 30gal garbage can full of water. I times the spray to fill a5 gal bucket, it took 1min 15 secs.

I'm going to refine the delivery method when I get hom elater this morning. The pond is at best 50' wide, if I can get 25' or so from each side I should be able to cover the pond. Second option is to use a 120' hose and leave the drums on the end nearest the well house, get on the ferry (i changed the ferry in the pic to now move north and south, pic shows west and east) and start at the far end and work my way back with one solution then the other.

I'd have a back-up plan in place just in case the fan nozzle clogs from any undissolved particles.

Always have a plan "B", plan "A" was the truck.

Plan "B" for nozzle is 10' PVC at end of hose with shut off valve, at the end of pipe glue and adapter to 3/4" MPT with cap. Cap has a slit cut, sorta like the end of a pressure washer. Still haven't perfected but working on it.

Trash Pump? Don't have one or know what it is. Wonder if this would work?

http://www.harborfreight.com/general-merch/plumbing/1-inch-clear-water-pump-1479.html

Make life easier and just screw on a water hose nozzle and adjust it to the spray pattern you like. Cheap plactic, "selectable patter" nozzles are only about $3 at Wal-Mart.

Like I said, it is critical that you start in the deepest areas and work your way to the shallows along with speading the spray the Alum in thin even patterns.

The Hy Lime is far less important and can even be broadcast dry over treated areas. It will dissolve quickly and spread evenly throughout the water naturally.

The pump you listed is much better than a sump pump, but I like the small 2-cycle water pump Harbor Freight has similar to this http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-inch-clear-water-pump-with-25-hp-ohv-gas-engine-98013.html

You can use adaptors to use the cheap plastic sump pump hose with it.

(The 2-cycle pump is very light weight and has a 1 inch inlet/outlet)

In this case, FLOW is not nearly as important as pressure. You need pressure to get both distance and to get a good spray pattern.

hd82, you can always call me with questions. Just click my signature link to find my number.

Thanks Rainman, I'll look into that pump. Since I have electric at the pond I thought and electric would be better.

Also thanks for the info and invite for me to call.

This is similar to the rig I use on my spray boat. Mine is 35 gallons and has a beefier pump. The nozzles are quite small and it has never clogged (unless I don't clean it after use). They are much more expensive but can be very useful around the property for other uses. It also comes with a hand wand that I use to spray near the shoreline...it will reach out 35 feet+.

http://www.nationwidewholesaledirect.com/catalog/item/2380284/1841284.htm

I rented a trash pump for $30.00 a day when I did my pond. It came with about a 30' long 1 1/2" dia fire hose, nozzle and strainer for the sution hose. It worked fine.

Here's the rig and pic of jugs with Alum and Hy Lime:

Each jug has corresponding amounts of Alum and half as much Hy Lime. The mayo jar is portional amt of just Alum, the Ragu jar is the control of pond water

This the pump from Harbor Freight with 1" in/out

Garbage can full of water

Sprayer set on vertical spray

10' x 3/4" PVC with hose attached

I figure I can ride the ferry to the deep parts and work my way towards shore.

Can I do it in sections, ie. Do the end on the north side with Alum then HY Lime, wait a bit then do the south end?

Just so that I completely understand, I'm not a chemist so help me out here. If I dissolve the Alum in the garbage can before spraying what will the clay particles attach themselves to?

Not to discredit any member or this forum but I am getting conflicting procedure as for as what goes first. The ph is already below 6.5. If I put the HY Lime first will it bring up the ph to more acceptable levels before adding Alum which will lower the ph?

From what I read in my search it is recommended to add Hy Lime prior to Alum. Once again I am trying to understand so that I can do this to the best of my ability with as much info as possible.

hd82, the hydrated lime will raise your ph almost instantly, and often to lethal levels. Even if the final level is not lethal, the fish will still be shocked from the sudden change.

The alum takes, at a minimum, several minutes to lower ph and the fish can better tolerate the change.

The shock factor is also why you apply the alum first and start in the deepest part of the pond working slowly toward the shallows when applying. This both allows for the fish to have "normal ph" water to escape and allows the "refuge" water to change ph gradually while the chemicals spread.

The best way to apply is to do sections as you said by first applying alum followed by the lime solution.
.
That 2-cycle pump you got is the one I use also. It will work well for you.

I'm not sure what your question is about what the clay attach to but....Suspended clay particles (colloidal clay) are negatively charged and constantly repel each other like the same poles of magnets repel each other. Aluminum Sulfate has a +3 positive charge and Hydrated lime has a +2 positive charge. The negatively charged clay is attracted to the positively charged alum and lime molecules. These particles quickly clump onto the positive molecules, gain weight, and fall from the water column and sink to the bottom.

Once you reach what I call the tipping point. you will see "clouds" of clay gathering in your water like clouds form in the sky. If clearing does not occur you can increase the treatment the next day or the same day to reach the tipping point. You'll know it when you see it. It is VERY cool. Be sure to turn off your aerator as you want the water as calm as possible for the best results. Take your time and cover the entire area as I've said (more alum/lime over deeper water than in shallow water) and you'll be fine.

Don't be surprised if you see your water getting green right away from the new light penetration either....this is a good thing.

The confusion you have may lie in the fact that we have suggested you also add AGRICULTURAL lime to and around your pond since it is acidic. This is a different lime entirely- slow acting and can help your pond for years to come.


edit: I would suggest your shut-off valve be where you intend to hold your pipe for quick accessability.

Thanks again,
Now I have the courage, I mean knowledge to do it this weekend. Being Labor Day I'll have three days to do it istead of my usual day and a half. I'll try to take some pics so that all can see the results of their help.

I went back outside after the I posted the pictures and added the valve near the hose connection. Nothing has been glued as yet, wanted to get your input before making it permanet.

That's where I would put it since it will be easier to get to quickly.

One final thought, wear eye protection and a dust mask. The alum is not so bad but the powdered Hy lime is very caustic and smaells like pure ammonia when you breath it in. It can damage mucus membranes easily. Keep a jug of clear water handy to flush your eyes if needed. Tears will prevent eye damage, but it hurts like hell!

Rainman is experienced and is giving good advice. I would like to interject one statement from my experiences. Since his pond was said to be acidic, I am the one who suggested that he add the lime 1st. This has been reiterated by others. Blame me. In actuality, this small amount of lime will hardly change the ph. Most freshwater fish like a little higher ph that neutral. 8 to 9 is ideal for hsb. I wish I could keep mine in that range. Look at volume of pond vs. volume of lime; no way will that shock the fish. Just my 2 cents. Ya'll carry on. I just dont want the man to be scared to death. Just get the stuff in there and be done with it.

I agree with you burger about the 25# of Hy Lime making little overall PH change. I also agree the PH should be raised. Five tons of dolomite Ag Lime would be great here!

I once added the lime first in a slightly acidic pond, once. To date it is the only pond I have treated to have some floaters in it afterward (about 50). I suspect, but don't know, that the fish that died where close to the lime or even directly hit when it was applied and they were shocked...it is the only explanation that made sense to me.

In the test jugs there is a cloud of white in each, is this the Hy LIme? It has been 4 days since the test was done and the cloud remains, is this what will happen in the pond? Is it because I did not dissolve the Hy Lime and Alum before adding to test jugs?

I did it but not happy with the results
1) Got 5 - 1 gal samples of pond water.
2) Test ph, below 6.5, hardness and Alkalinity both lowest on test strip and clarity using a white coffee cup on a strip 6" to 8"
3) Number gallon jugs 1 thru 5, put 1 tbsp aluminum sulphate in #2, 2 in #3, 3 in #4 and 4 in #5
4) After 12 jug #2 was as clear as # 5.
5) After doing the math I came up with .6978 ac/ft water
6) On this past Saturday I turned of the pond aerator, dissolved 10# Hy Lime in 20 gal of water in garbage can used a pump, hose and garden water nozzle and sprayed 1/2 the pond, waited and hour for fish to acclimate
7) Dissolved 20# Aluminum Sulphate in 30 gals of water and repeated procedure then waited an hour
8) I repeated steps 6 and 7 on the other half waiting an hour before and between
9) Today, Monday, everything is just as before I started, all levels are the same and the clarity did not get any better.
10) Before putting in the aerator about a month ago clarity was about 2'

Before leaving today I caught 8 CC and 12 of these, what are they? GSF?





Also I saw about 100 what I call Ditch Minnows, lot of pregnat females and nearly as many new born or yoy about 1/4" in the grass along the bank.

Yep, that is a green sunfish.

hd82, it may need more alum. When the alum concentration is high enough flocculation occurs and looks like clouds in the water....not a high enough concentration and you get little to no flocculation.

I've had to add as much as 150# alum per ac/ft before to achieve floc.

Rainman, you mentioned that the Hy Lime could be broadcast to cover pond, can the Alumi Sulphate also be broadcast dry? Just thinking when I did the jar test I didn't dissolve first, just put it into the jug of pond water and watched it sink and then float back up getting larger with each descent.

Powdered alum can be broadcast, but it still dissolve relatively slowly and sinks before becoming very effective. Hy Lime dissoves very quickly.

When you did the jar tests.....Did you put a tablespoon full of straight Alum in the jars, or a tbsp of Test Solution containing alum?

Also, what type of diffueser do you uses? How is it set in the water? How many diffusers and what amount of air volume is pumped?

On page 2 of this thread is a picture of the jugs of water, Thursday 09/02. I took the granulated Aluminum Sulphate from the bag to the jar (dry. The aerator I got from Ted Lea,
A single diffuser (two discs) will be plenty. Look on our site in the refurbished section for a Vertex Air One, I also have that same pump setup in a refurb minus the cabinet that we are just getting ready to put on the site for $369.00 (no tubing or shipping added yet) or we have new Eco 1 units for $594.00 lots of choices.
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http://www.cleanponds.com

I made a platform using 4" PVC pipe and FRP, mounted the diffuser to it to get it off the bottom.

I just spoke with Fla Parishes Farm Service, I can get Ag Lime for $51.50 / ton, he also said it would be $100.00 more for the truck to braodcast 2 tons Ag Lime into the pond. I just need to know how many tons I would need and setup a time and day to have it done.

Do you think I should put the Ag lime before attemping the Alum again? If so would I need to use the HY Lime?

You did the test incorrectly. You are supposed to dissolve 1 Tbl spoon full of alum in a jug. Mix throughly to make a slurry, THEN put diff. amounts of the slurry into new jugs of pond water.
What you did was apply roughly 1 part per 250 of alum by volume. The way I just mentioned is roughly 1 part per 250X250, or 1 part per 62,500.
I'm sure you are near to clearing the pond. With your low ph, I would put 20# more alum and 15 to 20 # quicklime. As I said in the beginning, adding alum is either an all or nothing proposition. As we have also stated earlier, ag lime is ground rock, thus wont do you any good in the short term. Very slow to dissolve. It wont do anything for the ph swing. It buffers the water to prevent quick and drastic ph changes that occur throughout the day. But takes a few weeks to start doing this.

As of thursday (yesterday) I have put 200# alum and 100# hy lime over three applications, 50#, 100#, then another 50#. The pond is begining to clear, a depth of 2' visibilty using white coffe cup on string. I still haven't seen and floc or clouding of water. Unless the pond went into total floc while I was picking up and washing equipment? It did seem to have a complete and total change in color to more of Clay Gray when I returned an hour later?

I know it sounds like I'm reaching and I'm not a chemist, would the fact that I use a sump pump to mix the dry with water and contiuously run the pump until all the slurry is sprayed into pond make a difference in the reaction of the chemicals, slow down or change the charge of the chemicals?

I wont get back up there until saturday but wonder if I should pick up more of each for a fourth application?

I measured the peremiter of the pond to better get a size. It is 280 linear ft. 280/4= 70. 70 x 70 =4900 sq ft times avg depth of 6' = 29,400 cu ft divided by 43,560 ac / ft = .675 ac ft. does this sound about right? What is the recommended amt of chemicals to use in 1 ac/ft? Secondly does the amt 200# alum and 100# Lime in .675 ac/ft I have already put in seem low?