I finally finished redoing the mini pond which is about 1400 gal. now. The bubble bead filter and waterfall filter are keeping the water clean, no trace of nitrites or ammonia and the PH fluctuates between 7.4 & 8.2.
The PS's are hovering over the spawning tubs but nothing yet, we've had a cold June but Temps should start warming this week.

That is cool, more pics would be nice.

Thanks

I'll get some photo's of the PS's when it stops raining.

Looks good AP!

Yo AP that's a nice looking pond! My wife is NOT going to be happy you posted this pic, it looks as though I may just need to start thinking about one for my backyard-right where her rose bushes are...

That's beautiful.

It really is a nice job.
Are the 'coons required to wear a tux, or is black tie acceptable?

Our coons just wear masks to dinner so that their clothes don't get dirty while dining in our garbage cans.

Surprised when I got home this afternoon to see the male and female doing a dance in the front tub, I took photo's as I walked up but the female took off when I got closer.
She's there but use your imagination.

Tonight the male guarding the tub where they spawned was very agitated.
The male guarding the other tub was quiet.


Here's the bubble bead filter.


The waterfall filter.

AP,

What are you plans with the offspring? Will you move them or will there be enough zooplankton in the pond? Will you relocate the broodfish once the fry show up?

AP

This is too cool. I would love to do something like this myself. I really enjoy your photos - your part of the country is special to me. Please keep em coming!

Cecil if I'm successful getting alot of offspring I'll try to get them out as soon as possible and put them in the 40 gal. tank I have. I have lots of artificial weeds in the pond for them to hide and also put in a small plastic fence cage with 1/2 inch mesh that they can take cover in.
I'll have to get some brine shrimp or other food made for fry, any suggestions?
The tub were I saw them spawning is still guarded by the male but he will eat when I throw food in, the male guarding the other tub won't eat.


TJ thanks for the kind words, the Northeast has some great country but I'm getting weary of the brutal winters(thank god for global warming ), I've never been to Nebraska but someday hope to hit the road and visit all 50 states.

I don't have any experience with brine shrimp but if you don't have any yet i would get them ASAP. Once they use up their yolk sacs they will need small enough food to eat right away or they will die.

My fish as you probably know, hatch in a fertilized pond, so their is already zooplankton for them to eat -- once they need it -- until they are large enough to feed train.




Don't thank the GWing AP. The warmer it gets the more snow you will get. At least that is what scientists say. (Added system snows to your lake effect snow.)

AP nice pond and great idea. Brine shrimp or krill will work. Also you might find some fry powder or you could crush to powder some pellets.

Wow AP, great looking pond. I see a lot of love and hard work going into building that PS pond. Does your larger pond reproduce PS naturaly?

My PS are also still on their beds, but the fry of last year are getting big, some are approching two inches. The trout don't seem to have any inetrest in them, as there are still quite a few. I should have a good population next season if the water doesn't dry up compeletly this summer.

AP,

If you send me your snail mail address via a P.M. I'll send you what I have left of freeze dried krill at no charge. The only catch is you'll have to either grind it up or crush it and then run it through some window screen to filter out the bigger pieces.

Cecil I appreciate the offer, if you don't have a use for them I would be glad to get them. Do you know how long it takes for newborn sunfish to use up their yolk sac?

Eric thanks for the idea, I have plenty of trout pellets if I need to crush some for the fry.

Scruffy my big pond has plenty of PS's that reproduce, but I kept the 10 largest ones in the RAS over the winter and now hope to get offspring from them and select the fastest growing ones, maybe a bigger PS down the road.
Hopefully your pond will keep enough water so all the fish survive, but if the worst happens have you decided to try sealing the ledge with cement?

Try this link AP. Everything that applies to bluegills should apply to pumpkinseeds.

http://www.ncrac.org/NR/rdonlyres/7BBF17EA-1CD1-411D-9F0B-723EABEF0E3E/49161/Sunfish_Culture.pdf

I'm thinking you should get the freeze dried krill today.

Thanks Cecil, alot of info there, it looks like 3 to 7 days after hatching before they use up their yolk sac.
I still can't see anything hatching yet but their probably gonna be hard to spot.

Cecil the Krill came yesterday, my cat is enjoying the smell of the box it came in, I put it into a zip lock bag, should I keep it in the fridge?

Again thanks alot.

AP once the PS start eating the krill well and you get ready to start trying pellets then put some krill into the crushed pellets. Work the stuff around in a plastic bag and let it sit overnight. That should help with the change over.

I'd actually put it in the freezer. It won't harden or clump together as it's freeze dried. It's going to want to float at first. You may have to make a soup out of it to get them interested.

Thanks for the advice guy's, I put the Krill in the freezer and I have trout pellets here if I need them later on.
The males are still guarding the nests but I don't see any little ones yet although the water clarity has diminished with the algae but tests today still show no ammonia or nitrites and a PH of about 7.5.
I don't want to use the Ultraviolet clarifier as long as the water tests good.
I don't know if it means anything but the male on the nest where I saw the female spawn is eating food but the male guarding the other nest will not eat.

As you're probably thinking that may mean the male is done with his nest guarding duties, but if that was the case you should see some fry. Is it possible he ended up a tardface vs. the other one?

Any way you can hang a light bulb or flashlight over the pond at night to see if any fry collect under it? In the early stages they are very, very, small and you can only detect them with a light. The light wouldn't have to be there very long.

Just went out to check for PS fry in the mini pond, I checked 2 weeks ago with a fluorescent light and saw some, but this time there's a Gazillion and they show up even better with a LED light.

Both of the spawning tubs are still being guarded.

Are they feeding on anything yet?

Cecil the mini pond has plankton growth and can barely see the bottom, I've been grinding up aquamax and some of the Krill you've sent me and adding it twice a day.
Their still pretty small and can only see them with a light at night. I figure the oldest ones hatched about 3 weeks ago, do you have info on what size they would be at different early stages of their life?

AP,

It should be similar to bluegill and I think I saw it in here:

http://aquanic.org/species/documents/Sunfish_Culture.pdf

Cecil I also found this chart which also had some good info from Michigan.
Their fry growth chart is a month ahead of mine but taking an average it looks like 2 months for the fry to reach an inch.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cache/a/a/g/aag2862.0763.001/00000017.tif100.gif

AP,

Looks about right to me. Amazing what reduced stocking density did vs. just fertilization.

AP,

I noticed there's a little thread on pumpkinseed fry on the NANFA site here:

http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/10150-pumpkinseed-fry/

Yeah Cecil I did see that, thanks.

Agitator going out tomorrow.

No hurry and I much appreciate it.

Also make sure you keep the water as clean as possible in your fry feeding tank. If not you can start losing fry.

Cecil I have a 10 gallon tank with my pet GSH in it, he misses his PS buddies but I was afraid he would be murder on the PS fry.

Soon I will take out some fry to raise in the 10 gal. tank and put the GSH in with the PS's.
I also have a 40 gal. tank I can use.

Larry,

I got the agitator today. It's in excellent shape and I even tried it and it works fine. You da man! Otherwise I would have had to buy one for back up. If you ever need anything...

Of course you do realize you may be getting me into trouble right? I'm thinking of sneaking out the wife's Shopsmith from another section of the basement into the garage. (She hasn't used it in at least 10 years and probably wouldn't miss it)Then cleaning that area out really good, epoxing the floor and setting up another RAS for yellow perch. Once it's in it's too late. HeHe! It weighs 2400 pounds full of water, honey. Too heavy to move... And besides we may not need a humidifier over the winter...

I want to put in some YOY yellow perch for the winter and see what kind of growth I can get. But I'm not sure what to do with my up to 6 inch bluegills in the present RAS. I suppose I could put them in a cage over the summer and move in some YOY bluegills.

Cecil your wife has a Shop Smith, those are handy, does she teach shop at the school.
I'm sure she won't mind you taking up more room when you explain how much money you'll make with it.
That's pretty fast growth for the BG you had in the RAS over the winter, are they the Condello strain?

No she teaches German. He just enjoys working with wood and making things, although it's been a long time since she's done anything.




Yes Condello strain. (Actually Bairdello strain). Although in all fairness I brought some in from a floating cage that may have been slightly bigger than the original inhabitants. Now I can't tell which are which.

Cecil, if you need a hand moving stuff give me a shout.

Well I'll probably take you up on that offer. I'd like to also grade the fish, and if you still want them I'll give you the slower growers. With any luck the yellow perch YOY in the pond will be the same size as the largest gills and I may put about 100 of the perch in with them. Then set up another tank for several thousand YOY bluegills.

It's taking me forever to get 13 fish done for two taxidermists. I finally have 10 ready to paint minus some raised scales I need to glue down. I'll be airbrushing all day tomorrow and maybe the next. Once i get them done and get paid for them, I may be off for another tank to put the RBC in.

Just give me a shout.

It's been about 5 weeks since the first PS hatch, I shut off the fountain and in the bright sunshine I could see the fry swimming around. The adults didn't bother them, probably cause their so well fed.
I scooped up about 3 dozen to put in the 10 gal tank but first I had to take out my pet GSH and put him in the mini pond.
The fry are 1/2" and smaller and still plenty of them in the mini pond. I'll keep a couple dozen of the largest offspring that I get by the end of sept. and see if any grow bigger than their parents. The adults ranged from 7 to 8 1/2 inches.

Great job. If possible put a couple in an clear glass jar with good water and take some pics.

I could use my wife's big soup jar.

A quart jar will do fine. I don't want you to get in trouble and have that soup jar crashed on your noggin.

Here's a better pic of the fry, the soup jar was off limits so I used a wine glass.

Wine glass worked good for pictures. Others take note.

Bill, I would have used one if I could have found one large enough. Honest!!

Nice looking fish Larry. They look like they are getting plenty to eat.

Man those are good looking PS. Thanks for the pic. Can I use it (with credit) ? How old are those fry at that size (from spawn)?

Great work AP!

That IS a good pic. What do you estimate the difference is in the age of the large/small fry?

Bill that's my catch all wine glass, it works great for catching crickets and Jap. beetles.

Cecil the fish seem healthy and I'm grinding up aquamax 600 and the Krill and feeding that to them.

Eric your welcome to use any of the photos, I figure the oldest ones hatched around June 20th.

Thanks TJ.

esshup I have some fry that are bigger than the biggest ones in the photo, so I would guess the 2 bigger ones are 4 weeks and the smaller ones 2 weeks old.

AP,

Keep in mind the Aquamax 600 does not have the amount of protein the smaller sizes do, which fry need more of than larger fish. However if you're mixing in the krill you should be O.K.

So around 45 days old when the pic was taken?

So I guess that I am the only one here that is concerned that AP is putting fish in his Chardonnay.

Yeah Eric I'm not sure, but the bigger PS's in the photo are not quite as big as some of the ones in my aquarium, so maybe 4 weeks old for them vs. 6 weeks for the biggest ones I have.

JHAP I drink my NY grown "Sweet Walter red wine" from a big coffee mug, wine glass is too small.

Thanks !!

With the nights getting cold I brought my large PS's indoors to the 100gal. RAS, and have picked out the 12 largest offspring from about 300 that survived from the mini pond.
I've set up a 40gal. aquarium for the 12 PS's and hope to grow them to maturity by next summer and get them to breed.
Eventually this selective breeding might give me some jumbo PS, but like they say "It all depends".

At 3 1/2 months old a couple of the largest are 2 inches long.

Nice looking fish AP!

Cecil how big would a BG be at that age being raised like your BG?

3 to 4 inches although I saw one that has to go 5 inches.

HOLY COW Cecil, 5 inches in such a short time, do you get your feed from the W.W.E.

Well that was only one fish. He's called a "shooter" in the aquaculture business. I put him back hopefully to be re-seined when I am ready to move a few thousand into the house. He's one that needs to end up broodstock. Bruce did a nice job of selectively breeding his ancestors!

I've had a setback. One of my stock tanks leaks at the center drain. I had to remove the drain which consists of two toilet seat flanges bolted together back to back with the tank bottom sandwiched in between. Yes, that's right the center drain that is used for a stand pipe is nothing more than toilet seat flanges! I'd post pictures but I still don't have my computer back.

I will replace them with new ones and a gasket under each. Considering there was no gasket or even any kind of sealant it's amazing it didn't leak before. Just four bolts!

There was some rust under the inside flange and just enough space to allow water to drip out.

Cecil:

Hit it with a wire wheel in a drill to get the rust removed, then apply the anti-rust stuff that you have. After that cured, I'd put a thin coat of silicone caulk on both sides of the metal, then install the gasketed toilet flanges. Wait 24 hr before adding a lot of water, although you could mist the outside of the seal area with water for a faster cure of the silicone after the gaskets are in place.

That should take care of any future problems.

I'm surprised you didn't keep that shooter and put him in a small tank so you don't take a chance on loosing him.

Is that leaking tank the one you used in your basement or a different one?

Scot,

That's just what I plan on doing although I'm seriously considering just putting in a PVC floor drain instead of the flanges, and gluing in a 2 inch PVC pipe down to the floor across the floor and then up into a bulkhead fitting into the bottom of 55 gallon drum.(The clarifier) Correct me if I'm wrong but both water levels will stay the same right? Then the 55 gallon drum is filled with deer fence netting as before, and a pump on top of the netting pumps the water to the biofilter in a separate biofilter tank, which is a little higher than the fish tank. This then overflows into the fish tank via a pvc pipe to start the cycle again.

The reason I'm interesting in this is, if the mechanics are right, the circular tank will be self cleaning if I add another pump in the fish tank to cause a circular flow. Most likely that pump would have a dual purpose such as another filter and pump or an ultraviolet light and pump.

Of course there will be a drain on the bottom of the califier also to drain the clarifier when the netting is cleaned and there is a water change. Also a shut off valve in the PVC to the clarifier to cut off flow when the clarifier is drained.

Thoughts from Mr. Engineer?

He's better off staying in the pond and not being stressed until I am ready for him. I'll probably drain the pond after several seine passes so I shouldn't miss him. Hopefully there are more that size.



No, it's the second stock tank I have which I am going to move the residents of the present stock tank into after I get it going. I will use the same biofilter though. And I will be adding the 5 to 7 inch YOY perch to that tank with the largest bluegills which are running 6 to 7 inches. Then I can dry and do some repairs on the first one, and it looks like I will have to. I see some rust spots popping through the epoxy.

Once I get the second tank up and running and cycled, in come the 3 to 4 inch bluegills and ~ 3 inch YOY perch in the same tank. A few thousand of each.

Cecil, yes, the water will seek the same level.

I've used this stuff to combat rust and it's worked pretty well. If the directions aren't followed, all bets are off. I've done it both ways and following the directions definately give you a better result long term.

http://www.por15.com/

I was 99 percent sure about the water seeking it's own level, but always working in uncharted waters makes me still want to ask.

As far as the rust treatment it looks like the same stuff I have. BTW the only real gaskets I'm seeing for toilet flanges are the beeswax ones and I don't want to use them. I've got some sheet rubber around that will make my own out of. I may use RTV rubber with it instead of silicone. For some reason I'm not having the best of luck with silicone adhering to the metal for a long period of time.

Thats the way I would do it. Bottom tank drain to the bottom of the clarifier with a ball valve. I would also put in a tee at the bottom of the tank with a drain hose attached. I have 2" pvc shower drains. I like these because you can easily take the plumbing apart without having to install unions. They were only about 6 bucks at Menards. They fit through a 3-1/8" diameter hole and come with gaskets.

On the outflow of your biofilter, you could plumb some pvc to create your circular current. You may have to diffuse the flow of water back to your tank to get the right current speed.

If you need more solids filtration then you could side stream with another pump. I would rather put in another barrel with a bag filter for that. Up flow out of your clarifier and down flow into the bag filter. You then put the pump in this barrel. You could still also side stream if you really need it.

You could then run an inline uv system directly out of the pump. With the polished water, you will have fewer cleanings of the uv unit, and it will work better.

What specific goals would you want to achieve with UV? The pond units you see are generally for destroying algae, and may not destroy viruses etc...

Here is an interesting pdf from Aquafine: Aquafine UV

Only problem is the existing hole in the stock tank bottom is 4 inches in diameter. Maybe I can still find a large drain that will fit?



I was thinking if I did go with UV of using a bulb powerful enough to kill bacteria, etc. I have a UV system minus the bulb for ponds that was given to me...?

Thanks for the info JKB!

My drain will consist of a toilet seat flange with the pipe insert cut off flush with the flange. This flange is on the inside while another flange is on the other side of tank with the insert pointed down to glue in the exit pipe.

I would just try patch up the holes in the tank and start over.

As far as the UV unit you have, do you have a MFG and part number? It may be easy to look it up and see what it is , and determine what you can do with it.

I really should start hacking and whacking out a simple RAS for PB members. The new galvanized stock tank has been outside, full of water since early spring. It is under a canopy and no algae, or even skeeters took a shine to it. Reason for doing that is I am leaching out the Zinc, and corroding it a bit. Makes it a bit easier to scuff up and coat with epoxy. I know it is toxic, as my dog wont come near the water in the tank. I had a 30 gallon polypropylene barrel collecting water off the canopy not much more than 3 feet away, still out of direct sunlight. And it was full of Algae and all stages of skeeter development

Not a perplexing issue to me, as I know what is taking place. But you can get some really "clean" flow characteristics, and suck out and contain the TSS (Total Suspended Solids), before they turn into TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).

I suppose, that is another chapter!

Plastic tanks have their advantages, and their disadvantages.

Cecil, you could get 2 pieces of thick plexiglass and bolt them to the bottom of the tank (one outside and one inside) with gaskets between them to seal the bottom of the tank. Then drill a smaller hole thru them for the smaller fitting.

JKB,

I was going to go with 2 inch hose or PVC from the drain to the bulkhead in the bottom of the clarifier as VanGorder felt the 2 inch pipe worked the best for the u tube siphon. Is it as crucial with the drain and upflow to the clarifier?

I'm not crazy about what AES charges for a 2 inch bulkhead fitting! Maybe I can find a cheaper source on line?

Hmmm... that would work but I already have the fittings for the drain so...

I'm now waiting 24 hr for the rust killer to cure and then will coat that with the epoxy and wait another 24 to 36 hrs! Then I can install the drain and wait another 24 hrs. for the silicone to cure!

It will be a miracle when I finally get this second tank up and running! Oh, and I have to wait for a couple of bulkhead fittings from AES once I order them tomorrow. It seems like it takes at least 4 days to get anything from Florida!

The tank will need about all of those 4 days to completely cure, so you aren't losing more than about a day.

If you need a hand, give me a shout. Between your you, your Dad and what I have here, I'll bet we have every tool that you'll need to get the job done, no matter what you want to do.

Thanks Scot!

I do not think I mentioned Plastic Tanks, and Plexiglas would be a disastrous solution for this application

And also the metal tank bottom wobbles up and down when it's empty. I could see plexiglass shattering!

JKB, that's correct, you didn't mention plastic tanks. Let me amend my plexiglass statement to Lexan, or a thicker sorrosion resistant steel so that Cecil could bolt it over the existing hole and make a smaller hole for the 2" pipe. Would a thinner gauge steel (that was the same approximate thickness as the tank) seal, or would it be too flexible to get a good seal?

Cecil, while you have a little time to burn, try sticking a bead of sealer on the black 180 gallon tank and see if it sticks. I'm concerned that you will have a hard time finding a sealer for it.

Actually I won't have to worry about it. It already has a drain installed, and I'm using Uniseals to slide the axle ends through the biofilter tank. (AES 2010 catalog pg. 364.) The part of the axle that goes through the tank walls does not rotate, and the frame will secure to both ends on the outside of the tank to keep them immobile. I may have to build the frame a little longer but that's not a big deal.

That's a good idea. I might (read that as probably) have a hole saw if you need one.

One other possible fix, Fiberglass resin and cloth, put a large patch on both sides.

And then put in some Pumpkinseeds!

Good suggestion. I keep forgetting about fiberglass because I don't like messing with it.

I was just digging out back and found a 9" x 20" piece of 0.090" thick 5052-H34 Aluminum Sheet, plus I got a bunch of 1/4 x 1-1/4 6061-T6 Aluminum Bar to use as a backer flange.

If an 8x8 or 9x9 piece would work to fix the tank bottom, I'll send Cecil enough stuff to fix both tanks.

If Cecil can give me a centerline dimension on the four bolt holes in the tank, plus the hole diameter, I'll whip out a quick drawing for the fix and send that also so you have a plan. Things are always easier with a defined plan.

I am heading to the post office on Wednesday!

Trying to catch up.

I would stick with the 2" PVC. As you may well know, Every Surface in an RAS will eventually grow bacteria, even the plumbing. Going with smaller means more cleaning, less efficiency.

I would just use one of those cheap shower drains. They actually are a bulkhead fitting, and a piece of flexible hose in the link should be just fine. I have never seen a plastic barrel with a flat enough bottom to hard plumb without twisting something out of shape.

JKB,

Thanks for the offer but I'll pass. I'm installing the 3 inch flanges tomorrow and will add a 3 X 2 reducer. I wondering if using a 2 inch vinyl hose wouldn't be better than 2 inch PVC to the clarifier tank. I can easily get the right fittings with barbs and can still add a shutoff valve in line.

At the bottom of the clarifier tank install a 't' in the hose so I can shut off flow from the tank, and drain the clarifier tank, when I clean off the filter material and drain the clarifier tank. On the very end of the hose install a male and female screw connection with barbs so I run the line to the floor drain which is about 15 feet away. I already have the hose left over from another project.

When not draining I can mount the disconnected end to the side of the tank as long as the end is higher than the water level.

I usually let epoxy cure for 7-10 days based on temp. and humidity. I also sweat it in for a good hour or so after mixing the two parts, again, based on temp. and humidity.

For a tank:
After the cure, water goes in for a couple weeks to try and saturate the coating, also to leach out some of the chemicals that come to the surface. Then I drain it and wash the surface with plain old Ivory dish soap. Rinse it out and do a fingernail test.

Properly applied and cured. Epoxy is a non toxic, thin film barrier that is totally safe for fish, if you do it correct.

You know things are in your favor if you can rub your fingernail against it and end up with a manicure

JKB,

The stuff I am using is called Tile Doc and it supposed to be completely cured in 24 to 36 hours. It's used to repair bathtubs, sinks etc. I do know it's really, really, hard after a few days and almost impossible to sand. I tried it when I had to rip out the drain and scrape rust and there was some at the edge of the rust. The stuff around the edges was impossible to remove without a grinder.

The other coatings have been in the tank for about a week now. So I really need to fill and drain again eh?

Gotta watch out what you are using:

Product Description: XIM’s Tile DOC is an Engineered two component finish that bonds strongly to porcelain and will hold up to cold
and hot water. The Tile-DOC is a gloss white that looks just like tile. It can be used as a white or tinted to a pastel color.
Not recommended for:
* Galvanized metal * Metal surfaces * Flexible surfaces
* In Swimming Pools Nor in Hot Tubs or Jacuzzis
Note: Not Flame or High Temperature Resistant
Note: Always Clean Tile DOC only with “Soft-Scrub” cleaners or mild detergents like 409 or Fantastic to prevent marking.


I only do the soak test to check total integrity of coating on a new tank, to find any problem spots. Not necessary on a touch up job.

But it does say:

For bare steel remove all rust and spot prime...

So metal in itself may not be a no no. I will call the manufacturer this morning. Sure hope I didn't screw up. It wouldn't be the first time I've used someone's else's advice and it was wrong. I would have loved to use AES's fish safe epoxy but the minimum order was a gallon kit and the price as it usually is with AES was way up there! Not to mention the shipping all the way from Florida!

I just called the company. I was told not to use it with continuous use applications and fish. That's what I get for listening to someone at Sherman Williams that doesn't raise fish. $45.00 wasted!

Now I will have to grind it off and order a different product! More delays!

I ordered West Systems (Does Eric have relatives in
RI?) 105 resin and 205 fast hardner that came highly recommended by a public aquarium in Texas here:


http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/10679-fish-safe-epoxy-source/page__pid__82854#entry82854

The best part is both including measuring pumps came to under $60.00 before shipping!

Sorry you got the wrong stuff in the first place. When I suggested Sherwin Williams, I meant one of their epoxy paints, not a 3rd party product they sell in one of their outlets.

I should have been more specific

It's not your fault. Honestly didn't remember who recommended them anyway. At least now I can sleep at night not worrying if the fish will die! It's a good thing you questioned it and caused me to call the manufacturer!

Hey should I be worried about the plastic tank I bought? It's recycled plastic. I washed the inside good but it still beads as if it has some kind of mold release still on it. Esshup recommended tsp.

Are there any markings like LDPE, HDPE, PP, or something. I googled recycled stock tanks, and the ones I saw were made from 100% recycled LDPE (Low Density Polyethylene), which is fish safe. Polyethylene's in general have somewhat of a self lubricating property, some more than others. UHMWPE is a very good bearing material and darn near as slippery as Teflon. You should not have an issue with the plastic tank, just verify the material it is made from.

JKB,

You're not going to believe this:

I got a call from an old acquaintance today asking pond questions for a friend. I hadn't talked to him in at least a year. He's a commercial paint supplier and contractor. Super nice guy. Anyway he asked me if I knew someone in aquaculture that he had just painted some concrete fish tanks for. Of course I did as it's small group in this state. I told him about my experience with the epoxy and his response was I should have called him and he would have given me a gallon of the stuff he painted the tanks with for free! I could shoot myself! He's still going to give me a gallon for free when he's in the area next week and I think I'm going to use it even though I have other stuff on order. He says this stuff is safe enough to drink from and stays flexible, which is what I need for a metal tank as they flex little as they fill (definitely true), and the stiff epoxies sometimes can't fully handle that. It also sticks to itself well unlike other epoxies.

I could have saved myself some money if I had only thought of calling him!

Looks I like I will have some of the other resin for sale really cheap if anyone is interested. Hint, hint.

Thats good!

Did he tell you what brand it was, I would like to check it out also.

Thanks for the update.

Said it was made by CIM Industries. I can get more specific info for you when he brings it over.

Here's the website:

http://www.cimindustries.com/markets-for...earchterm=tanks

Make sure you read everything about the product. Here is just one thing: Decontamination

They recommend testing the safety of the tank with guppies before stocking any valuable fish.

Also ask if there is any minimum tank size that can be used for fish.

I looked into polyurethanes about 10 years ago, they were quite expensive at the time. Basically the same stuff as the spray on truck bed liners.

JKB,

Although I will follow decontamination procedures
thanks for the heads up. I will discuss it with the contractor and the fish farmer he applied it for.

As an experiment I left about 2 dozen of the smallest PKS offspring in the mini pond to see if they can survive the winter.
I keep a 3x3 ft. area clear for sunlight but I will be surprised if they make it till spring.

I have the 9 largest PKS that hatched last summer, now in a 40 gallon tank and they are growing well, hopefully I can get them to spawn this summer.

How big have your yearlings gotten?

Travis the largest ones are about 3 1/2 inches and I feed them Krill, Salmon, and ground up Aquamax 600.
I'm using a Marineland dual wheel bio filter and a Tetra filter on the 40 gal. tank and the water quality is fine.
About 2 weeks ago I lost one of the big females in the 100 gal. RAS, it's the only loss I've had in the 2 winters it's been operating. She looked fine so I don't know if it was old age, or something else, no other problems.

Have you had any luck in finding suitable property to put your ponds on?

3.5" is great growth, that's right about the biggest PS yearling I have been able to grow in my aquarium. The coloration of that PS in that photo is amazing! The krill diet really helps bring out the colors.

I am being patient, but land prices in the DC area are still rather expensive, especially on a police officer/teacher salary. May be many years before I own my own pond. So I am stuck playing with other people's ponds. My dad and I are looking into possibly building a pond on our 50 acres in PA. However the topography of the land there isn't very conducive to anything but a fairly small pond, perhaps 1 acre at best. Plus, it's 2 hours away and no electricity where we'd build, so it reduces management options. For now I am being patient, I am only 30...

Yeah the banks aren't too crazy about lending money on vacant land, unless you can find suitable property with a house already on it, as long as your wife agrees that the proper land is more important than the house. Good Luck.

Surprised again, the PKS fry that I left in the mini pond have survived. I kept a small area cleared of snow all winter but that pond had to be close to totally froze, the water was pretty murky and didn't see anything moving so I started pumping out the water and as it got shallow I could see them moving around, they are tough little buggars.

AP,

Must be why as a sunfish their range goes much farther north than bluegills.

I believe PS's are a good addition to many northern ponds especially if they have winterkill problems.
Now if I can just get that 1lb. 10oz. PS thru selective breeding.

I fished out some of the little PS's from the mini pond and even though they survived the winter they didn't grow, the biggest ones weren't much over an inch.

Good info AP. How old was the big female that died? Those guys are tuff.

Eric I had her less than 2 years and she was an adult when I got her, she appeared healthy and I never had any problems with the other PS's, maybe it was old age.

That is what I was thinking also. If she was in good condition that is most likely a good assumption under your facts.

I transferred my 8 large PKS from the RAS back into the mini pond, the biggest ones were 9 inches so that's only a 1/2" gain from last year so I think they have reached their max length but they are plenty fat.
Soon I will put their 10 largest offspring from last year in a 100 gal. tank outside and hopefully they will spawn. I'll keep selectively breeding them and see what happens.

Here's one of the bigger ones.

Pretty looking fish! It will be interesting to see how your breeding work goes.

Beautiful fish AP.

9 inches is a dandy!!

The PS's didn't waste any time, there's a male guarding both spawning tubs already.

Fantastic fish AP. Any pics of the one year old fish ?

I don't have a current photo Eric, this one was taken in Feb. when they were 3 1/2 inches.

Thanks AP - very beautiful PS.

My 2 year old PKS have spawned in the mini pond and the fry are growing well, at the end of the summer I'll choose some of the fastest growers and continue to try and breed big PKS's, it sure is a slow process but the 2 year old's are a decent size already but I have a long way to go to get 12" PKS's.

Here's some of the fry aka fingerlings or juveniles.

Just as a reference,, a fish ceases being a fry by fishery definition when it develops a full compliment of fins and usually scales. This is actually at quite an early age and length - often at or slightly less than 1/2" long. After this stage the young are called juveniles or fingerlings. Adirondack has some nice fingerlings in that picture. If he gets PS to 12" he will be my fish growing hero.

A 12 in PS might be a world record. Nice pics AP and thanks for posting them. Another way of referencing young fish is as young of the year (yoy)

AP does love his PS! What's not to love about such a pretty fish...

This is AP's pic that I like.

Thanks Bill, I didn't know that. The fingerlings were 1/2" long.


Erik the state record is 1Lb.9oz.& 11&1/2 inches, it was taken about 30 miles from here.


Yeah Travis they look great but they are also tough little buggers and can stand up to frigid winters.

I believe a 12" PKS is reachable given good genes and enough time, question is will I live that long.

From what I can tell that is the world record. So if you go 12 inches and 1-10 you will have the WR.

As long as you're not in Indiana AP. Here in Indiana as you know I was denied a state record because my fish was on a "feeding program." LOL Apparently someone here thinks all it takes to grow a state or world record is to feed the fish!

I don't have a problem with it but to say feeding is all it takes...

Cecil this chart shows that NJ,and ohio allowed a private pond record, I don't know if NY allows a record from a private pond.
http://www.landbigfish.com/staterecords/fishrecords.cfm?ID=30

With the cold weather coming in I moved my PS's indoors from the mini pond to the RAS.
My 1st generation of PS's hatched from my biggest breeders are 27 months old, I selected the fastest growers and they are up to 7 inches long now.
They spawned this summer and I kept 16 of the biggest 2nd generation offspring.

Here's one of the 27 month old 1st generation.



Here's one of the 2nd generation 3&1/2 month old PS's.


They all appear to be growing at well above normal rate but it's gonna be a few years before I know if it really works.

They look great! How well do they feed on pellets?

That 7 incher is a toad!!

Very nice fish AP ! Sure it's working. You have live fish that are growing.

The PS's eat well, the bigger ones get Salmon and Krill and aquamax, the juveniles get crushed aquamax and Plankton.

They are all plump.

What a terrific fish!!!

That's a beaut

AP,

I just read that upstate NY in the higher elevations will get 24 to 30 inches of snow. Are you ready?

They're calling for 12 to 17 inches right now so that's not too bad, we're use to it, but as I get older I enjoy it less.

I stocked 2 to 3 inch PS in the fall of 2014. First question.... is it possible my PS could be big enough to spawn spring 2016? Second question...my understanding is PS spawn once a year in water temps higher than YP but lower than BG... is that true?

Bill,

Not sure if AP posts here anymore. Last post was April of 2013. I know he got honked at the moderation a few times.

If PS are anything like bluegills they certainly could have spawned. BG are capable of spawning as YOY. I've had 4 inch YOY spawn.

As far as the temps of spawning they do seem native to cooler waters of Canada so...

Thanks Cecil. Yeah I know he's not around anymore but, in the interest of thread consolidation, I figured this was a good place to post my questions and hope a current member would rise to the bait and I was right. I appreciate your input!

After seeing them snorkeling in Cape Cod in a freshwater lake I was ready to put some in my pond. The ones there were nice size, approaching a pound I would guess. LMB around so not very many small ones.

Then I took a look at where they are native on the USGS site.

Pumpkinseed range

A few introduced in NE Kansas but none where I am at. Since my pond has overflow into small seasonal creek, introducing non-native species likely is a no-no, so gave up on the idea.

Probably too far south and too warm water in summer for them to thrive anyway. According to my older brother they used to be in Cow Creek when he was a kid. But I kind of question his memory and/or ability to properly identify fish back then.

Pretty fish though.

Those Pumpkinseeds are pretty tough, I have seem them thrive in some pretty skanky ponds around here that must have horrible temperature swings (shallow and full sun) and bad water quality (mud and muck). Record size? No, but lots of them anyhow.

I have debated putting them in my pond for a while, simply because they are not shy and would make for better snorkeling than perch. The problem them becomes the top dogs in the pond. I am resisting putting in a breeding population of bass to keep PS in check as I also like my perch, and the perch will get hammered.

Do PS do well with RES and LES? Does anyone know a source near SW Michigan?

They are beautiful! and adapted to northern pond conditions I see.

PS can overproduce and stunt much like BG. They compete with RES for snail/crustacean. They can live in IN , KAN and Mich - without issue. There is a study somewhere (forum thread) about the interactions of PS , RES , GSF etc but not sure it covers LES.

Here is the info

From - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156567&page=1

Starting a compilation on PS applicable to this thread.



Food of Three Species of Sunfishes

(Lepomis, Centrarchidae) and

Their Hybrids in Three

Minnesota Lakes •

DAVID A. ETNIER

TRANS. AMER. FISH. SOC., 1971, NO. 1

It is interesting

to note that hybrids between green sunfish

and pumpkinseeds from Sieverson and

Long Lakes agreed more closely with pumpkinseeds

than with bluegills in regard to the

consumption of Hyalella and snails, while the

Squaw Lake hybrids that were predominantly

between green sunfish and bluegill agreed

more closely with bluegill in this regard. Fish

were a rather insignificant food for hybrids,

but were more frequently ingested by hybrids

than by any of the parental species. A consistently

high percentage of hybrid stomachs

contained food (Table 4).





Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 116:98-102, 1987

Test of Genetic Differentiation in Growth of Stunted and

Nonstunted Populations of Yellow Perch and Pumpkinseed

DANIEL HEATH 1 AND DEREK A. ROFF 2



pumpkinseed

Lepomis gibbosus populations of Lac Hertel, Qu6-

bec.

Pumpkinseeds have been known to

be stunted since 1973 (W. C. Leggett, McGill University,

unpublished data), and again anecdotal

evidence suggestsa much longer period of stunting

Fish

The species of fish found in Lac Hertel include the following eight species:

northern pike (Esox lucius)

rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)

yellow perch (Perca flavescens)

pumpkinseed sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus)

golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas)

mudminnow (Umbra limi)

white sucker (Catostomus commersoni)

brown bullhead (Ictalurus nebulosis)


This is not the info I have previously read.

Vital Statistics of a Michigan Fish Population, with Special Emphasis on the Effectiveness of Stocking 15-cm Walleye Fingerlings
PERCY W. LAARMAN

North American Journal of Fisheries Management 1981;1:177–185


Mean total mortality rates of smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieui), bluegills (Lepomis macrochirus), pumpkinseeds (Lepomis gibbosus), and black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus) were 60, 66, 72, and 58%,




MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES

FISHERIES DIVISION

Redear Sunfish Management in Michigan

Gary L. Towns

Fisheries Technical Report 2003-3

September 30, 2003

http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf



After several years of observations, an

Indiana Department of Natural Resources,

fisheries biologist reported that redear sunfish

didn’t seem to “stunt” in growth like some other

panfish species (Neil Ledet, 1987, personnel

communication)





Some fisheries managers have speculated

that redear sunfish may out-compete native

panfishes in Michigan, especially pumpkinseed.

Redear sunfish and pumpkinseed both consume

snails. In fact, no other native fish species in

Michigan’s inland lakes uses snails as a primary

food item, so it is logical to assume that there

will be competition between these species. In

centrarchids, molariform teeth are present only

in redear sunfish and pumpkinseed (Trautman

1957), and mollusk-eating in centrarchids is

usually associated with increases in the

proportion of molariform teeth on the

pharyngeal jaws, among other things (Lauder

1983).

Huckins’ (1997) observations from a pond

competition experiment, and from fish surveys,

suggested that pumpkinseed and redear sunfish

compete, and that competition for snails is the

mechanism of the interaction. Redear sunfish

were superior to pumpkinseed in exploiting

snails. However, this study also suggested that

pumpkinseed may be better able to eat softbodied

prey items - such as aquatic insects.

Huckins’ analysis of pumpkinseed and redear

sunfish populations in two Michigan lakes (Lee

Lake, Calhoun County and Saubee Lake, Eaton

County) suggested the greater crushing strength

of redear sunfish allowed them to shift from a

diet of soft-bodied insects to a diet of snails at an

earlier age than pumpkinseed. Pumpkinseeds

≤2.6 in were consuming primarily soft-bodied

prey such as insect larvae, the bulk of which

were dipteran. Diets of larger pumpkinseeds

(≥2.6 in SL) also tended to be dominated by

chironomid larvae (about 37% of diet biomass),

with snails making up less of the diet (about

29% of the diet biomass). In contrast, Huckins

found redear sunfish in the same lakes showed a

striking shift in diet between small (<1.6 in SL)

and large individuals. Diets of small redear

sunfish contained approximately 30%-50% each

of snails and zooplankton, and the remainder

was dominated by dipteran larvae. Redear

sunfish larger than 1.6 in showed an extensive

shift to molluscivory - approximately 87% of the

average diet was composed of snails. It is

probable that where snails are prevalent the

superior snail crushing ability provides an

advantage to redear sunfish, but it is not so

overwhelming that pumpkinseed will likely be

extirpated after redear sunfish introductions.

Michigan fishery surveys have found

pumpkinseed populations co-existing with

redear sunfish in lakes that have had large redear

sunfish populations for several decades. Fish

populations in Lake George, Silver Lake, and

Coldwater Lake in Branch County and in

Crooked Lake in Washtenaw County are good

examples. Pumpkinseeds were present in most

recent trap net surveys of these lakes, but in low

numbers. In an effort to further examine this

issue, survey catch data for pumpkinseed were

examined in other lakes where redear sunfish

have been introduced (Table 5). In some

instances, specific pumpkinseed data were not

recorded in early (pre-redear sunfish

introduction) surveys. In other cases, redear

sunfish and pumpkinseed have co-existed for

only a few years, so long-term effects from any

competition could not be measured. However,

in most cases, where pumpkinseed survey data

exist, there seems to be no obvious negative

relationship. In 40 post-redear sunfish

introduction surveys, trap net catch-per-effort

(CPE) of pumpkinseeds decreased in 21

situations, increased in 18, and stayed the same

in 1. However, overall average pumpkinseed

CPE declined from 7.6 to 4.7. Total CPE of

redear sunfish and pumpkinseeds combined

increased in 36 of the 40 surveys.

Pumpkinseed growth index changes showed

no specific pattern after redear sunfish were

introduced. Adequate growth index data for

pumpkinseed (pre- and post-redear sunfish

introductions) were available for 9 lakes. Four

of these indicated that pumpkinseed growth

increased after redear sunfish were introduced,

four indicated decreased pumpkinseed growth,

and one was unchanged. The average of these

nine lakes was an increase in pumpkinseed

growth index from 0.2 to 0.3 in after redear

sunfish were introduced.

Thanks! That is helpful.

They both like snails. I wonder if they (RES and pumpkinseeds)do better in lakes where snails are 'naturally' found? And if they will die out if they happen to be in a lake that doesn't have snails?

Ponds will only have a limited supply of snails and when they are gone they are gone...

They both can and do eat a lot other than snails. They have an advantage with snails as those 2 species have teeth (phalangeal plates/teeth/crushers)that break up snails.

Does anyone know of a fishery that has only RES and pumpkinseeds as the panfish?

I have RES, SMB, YP, and GSH and very little cover for snails to hide in. My RES seem to be doing just fine eating "other" stuff, mostly YOY golden shiners would be my guess as RES catchabilty drops quickly once the GSH spawn gets going. I rarely see snails in my pond now but still do see a little bit of evidence that a few snails are breeding.

My 1/20th acre forage pond has only FHM and RES. Last year I had FHM that I could catch minnow trap after minnow trap of minnows. This year very few FHM. A pretty good amount of YOY very small FHM this fall so some adults did spawn. Have pallets for spawning substrate.

Unless something has went wrong with the water in this pond (and I have no reason to believe so) the only thing I can think of with the low FHM production is that the RES are hammering them. Threw a cast net a few times and came up with some 7" RES. Have only caught a few YOY RES. Disappointed in that also. As far as snails, I have from the beginning enormous amounts of snails. Now with RES in all ponds, very few adult snails. But in the forage pond as well as the other ponds, if a person looks closely at the 1/4" deep water around the edge where there is fresh algae growth there will be lots and lots of baby snails the size of a pin head. Move on out into the water and have to turn over rocks to find adult snails.

So my suspicion is that there are enough RES in my forage pond to keep the snails in check and any out in the open get eaten as soon as they get in deep enough water for the RES to get to them. Since the snails are probably not enough forage for all the RES in the pond, I think they are then turning to the FHM for the rest of their meal. At least that is the best theory I have to date.

I also had lots and lots of FHM in my 1/10th acre sediment pond. Now that the RES have had a year to grow and get some size, FHM are getting rather scarce in this pond also. Only other fish in there are CNBG I stocked at same time as the RES. A few hybrid BG also but I pull all those I catch or trap and put elsewhere, so not many of those.

My conclusion is that RES can eat a lot of FHM when other more preferred food gets scarce.

John (snrub),

I have caught Pumpkinseeds in the Boy Scout lake that is in your area. I would estimate 1 per 50 or 1 per 100 of the panfish caught were PS. Unless they require the habitat of the lake environment, then I think they would survive in your ponds.

I have never caught a RES in the Boy Scout lake - unless I somehow misidentified a female. (We usually catch the panfish when using very light tackle for bass - so we probably land a much higher percentage of GSF and have skewed results compared to the actual populations.)

I didn't know that you had stocked some CNBG in your ponds. I thought you were just past the northern edge of their survival territory. How are their growth rates compared to your RES and HBG?

Thanks.

Any trouble with controlling the GSH?

Not so far but I went heavy on my initial SMB stockings, I do believe that my GSH are somewhat limiting the recruitment of SMB now which is not necessarily a bad thing for my SMB. RES over 7-8" are growing like gang busters and in great body condition, my smaller RES that are competing directly with the larger GSH are more average body condition. If the GSH start getting out of hand I may add a few HSB.

I like that plan! I was worried if I stock GSH (I have WE as well as YP and SMB) that the GSH would out grow the predator mouth gap. You might sacrifice some YP and SMB YOY but I like the HSB as a fall back position.

I'm not familiar with the Boy Scout lake. What town is it nearest? If there are PS in the area, I would not have the hesitation to stock some. With my BG population as strong as it is and LMB in the pond, the PS would never become anything more than a novelty catch once in a while. I don't see where their numbers could ever grow to significance with the BG already established so well.

My main pond was stocked with northern BG. When I built a 1/10th acre sediment pond that about half my watershed area runs through before it gets to main pond, I put 175 (out of 200 purchased) RES and 100 CNBG from Dunn's fish farm in Arkansas (edit correction - Dunn's is out of Oklahoma) (my main pond was stocked from Wallace Fish Farms in Kansas). At least Dunn's calls them CNBG (there has been speculation that maybe they are some intergrade between northern and CNBG). They do have a somewhat different appearance in that they seem to be somewhat more dishpan shaped with a taller profile and as they have grown the copper is showing up more. It was kind of an experiment. These fish in my opinion have not seemed to thrive as well as their northern counterparts, but that is just my opinion. I wonder if I did not get a pretty large winter kill the first year as the fish were 2" stocked in the fall of last year. These fish will integrate and intermix with the main pond as I have caught some of the larger ones and transferred as well as the overflow water runs directly in the big pond. The CNBG are pretty though. Dunn's route truck goes as far north as central Kansas to sell fish, although they tend to push the HBG more than the CNBG.

Dunn's Fish Farm is in south central Oklahoma.

Thanks for that correction! Will change it in my post.

snrub,

Sorry, the Boy Scout lake is 8 miles north of Sedan. [Not as close to you as I thought when we first started chatting via PM.] It is just over 500 surface acres - just a smidgen larger than your forage pond.

Thanks for the report on your CNBG.

Yes Sedan would be up close to the area in NE Ks where the USGS shows they were introduced.

The PS are not a big deal for me. In all reality the RES get bigger and would be the better fish to have, and I already have them. After seeing the PS up close (males were nesting in shallow, clear water and we could snorkel right up close and observe) and of pretty nice size they seemed like would be a nice novelty fish to have a few in the pond.

But decided to not pursue it. Last thing I want is for some official looking person come out and tell me I need to kill all the fish in my pond because I introduced a non-native species.