Pond Boss
Posted By: F-H SMB Pond Update - 05/29/10 03:46 AM
Our little 3/4 acre pond is starting to show some SMB promise -

I fall stocked SMB (about 40) in Fall 2008. Most were 2-3" long when I stocked -though some were a year class older and 4-6". Here's a couple I've caught recently. The larger ones were probably the older year class - and one of those ( the picture of the fish on the ground) was egg laden.

Most of the SMB I see are the size of the one in the palm of my hand - about 8". Hoping for a little spawning tis year - but expecting it really next year.

The pond is BG - FH minnows - SMB, a few YP and anout 25 Brown trout and a couple brook trout. I've put some browns and FH in ever since it held water - and some of the brown trout are 14-16" now.










FH
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/29/10 12:55 PM
Great report, F-H!

So the larger SMB was a female; I wonder if there are any males large enough to try and spawn.
Posted By: Bob-O Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/30/10 03:32 AM
Sir, Is that nice doe in pic #5 actually tethered down?
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/30/10 03:37 AM
Thanks Bob O -

No the Deer is actually young buck on my Pond Cam - the pics posted kind of small so its tough to see the nubs!! I don't tie them down till hunting season gets a little closer.



Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/30/10 03:40 AM
Yes - I think I have a couple older males (10-12") - so we'll see.
I also put in ONE male LMB that looks to be about 14" now. I'm hoping he gets a SMB/LMB cross going on (its a pond experiment!).

This is Him last Sept (2009) I saw him cruising the shallows yesterday too.



FH


Posted By: Dave Willis Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/30/10 02:13 PM
FH -- you probably know this, but your LMB X SMB would look just like a spotted bass. You can turn into a southern boy at that point?? smile
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/30/10 03:18 PM
It sounds like you are developing a great smallmouth bass fisheries! Congratulations! I'd be worried though that largemouth could be eating your smallmouth bass. He's definitely big enough to eat them. I'd replace him or her with a smaller largemouth more in line with the size of your smallmouths. JMO of course.

How's your spawning substrate for your smallies? I say that because I had egg bound females die in one of my ponds because of the lack of good spawning substrate. In all fairness though it's possible temp fluctuations may have been a factor too.

My smallmouth producer says smallmouth spawns are very unpredictable for him. He says it's bust or boom. Says if a severe cold front comes in after a spawn he can end up with few or no fish.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/31/10 01:29 AM
Thanks guys -

The LMB was the same size as the SMB when I put him in - I'd say about 4". He's growing faster than the SMB - Most of whom are 8-10". The LMB is so visable - I see him cruising almost any time I walk the pond edge. They are ALL keying in on the tadpoles and frogs right now. I don't see the SMB as often - but I can catch then easily now - last year I only caught a couple.



I suspect the LMB (I call him Larry) uses the BG's as forage better than the SMB have been able to -

I need to get some gravel & Rock Piles in. I've got a clay bottom - with lots of crusher-run type gravel mixed in - probably good for bass spawning - but I have very few rock piles for the SMB fry.


FH
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 05/31/10 02:29 AM
Originally Posted By: F-H
Thanks guys -


I suspect the LMB (I call him Larry) uses the BG's as forage better than the SMB have been able to -

FH


Hopefully. But then again he may prefer the smallmouth that are of a narrower profile that he can swallow easier. wink
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/03/10 04:02 AM
It seems some of the Yellow Perch I released last summer have had a successful Spawn - I was able to get a couple in my minnow trap.



Thought I'd see if I could catch a trout with one - but got a high-flying SMB to take. He's about 7-8" but no doubt a fan of young perch!



I see these SMB under a ft long from my stocking in fall 2008 - they are eating well crusing the pond edge.

I fertilized the pond - and have got some color - I have about 24" visability right now - down from about 48". Still I cannot duplicate that awesome blue-green bloom from the 1st year of the pond being full

(this pic is from 2008 when it was filling up!)


I did get enough to get rid of a lot of that filamentous algae I was seeing more and more of.



FH
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/03/10 03:30 PM
Very cool FH. I'll bet in a couple of years you're gonna have some monster SMB!
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/03/10 04:10 PM
Very nice! I love the coloration of that SMB... Those little YP make great aquarium guests til they outgrow their welcome.
Posted By: Rattletrap2 Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/04/10 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: F-H
Thanks guys -


I suspect the LMB (I call him Larry) uses the BG's as forage better than the SMB have been able to -

FH


Hopefully. But then again he may prefer the smallmouth that are of a narrower profile that he can swallow easier. wink


I noticed that a large LMB was swimming around under the feeding smaller fish. It was very selective to only go after small YP, rather than go after the more abundant RB and PS young. I guess they prefer the slender profile over the sunfish body shape?
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/28/10 05:00 AM
Here's a SMB update - 7-27-10

I thought this fish looked a little long and thin. Couls be the SMB are having a tough time feeding on BG, YP and FH minnows with the current algae bloom. Or maybe I just caught a runt. I'd seen several of the SMB working a group of minnows around a weed patch and tossed over a rapala. While small - he was fire up - like the all seem to be.



On another exciting note - I saw a school of alt least a dozen Bass YoY probably about 2-3" long in the shallows working together like a school of fish on invertebrates or small minnows. I didn't throw out a net - but I'm assuming they were SMB - but could be..... Meanmouth if my lone LMB got lucky.

We'll see soon enough.

FH
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/28/10 12:18 PM
I think that SMB looks just fine. The fatheads may be dwindling in numbers, so perhaps that SMB is not getting as much food.

Do your SMB take to pellets? (sorry if you've mentioned it before)
Posted By: n8ly Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/28/10 02:04 PM
Something to think about would be to determine the average size of your smallmouth bass and start taking out the underachievers who are wasting precious resources. In a 3/4 acre pond you don't have enough food to grow all of the smallmouths to a preferable size, especially once they start having babies and adding even more mouths to feed. The biggest and best smallmouths will suffer if you try to share their resources with the underachievers.
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/28/10 02:34 PM
n8ly is just too brutal.

If you must cull some SMB, then find someone who will take them and give them the love that they deserve.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/29/10 04:17 AM
My smb know nothing of pellets. I bought a bag and set up a feeder last year but had poor results. I live 20 miles from the pond and at best I visit weekly. I'll keep track of the SMB and cull BG, YP and SMB accodingly to acheive maximum SMB growth without feeding. Thats my plan - and if & when it gets out of hand - I'll supplement some LMB - and maybe some other lone - top end predators.

FH
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 02:22 AM
I've been very very happy to see many SMB YoY. No doubt there was a good spawn - and I'm now seeing pods of 12-24 smb anywhere from 2-4". They are very active and easy to ID as SMB even from a distance. They are growing faster than the BG and YP you. Im seeing less and less FHM - There were TONS in the spring - but they seem to be missing - either they are on the deeper structure or the schools are being preyed upon heavily.





I'm seeing lots of 6-7" BG that are too skinny. I put the feeder up - and will start a BG Fish-fry afternoons this fall during bowseason! Hoping to fatten the up over the next month ot two. Cannot wait!

I can't figure out how to embed the feeding video - here is the link.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v443/f...gill8-20-10.mp4


Haven't seen any of my trout since spring - if they made it through this summer - they'll be fine forever!

Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 02:46 AM
F-H,

I know pics are deceiving but that pond of yours sure looks bigger than 3/4 acres!
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 02:50 AM
I should measure it - I've only ever estimated the area really. I'm sure its not over an acre - but it could be close.
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 02:57 AM
Sounds like your SMB are doing great FH, have you stocked GSH or considered stocking 100's of thousands of fry to get a good forage base.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 12:38 PM
I haven't considered GSH because I put in BG. In hindsight - I probably wold have gone YP/SMB/FHM and some put & take trout. Then I could have considered supplementing with GSH fry or something else if needed. As it is right now, my SMB will have to learn how to like BG -and if they don't I'll either have to seine to keep their population lower, eat ALOT of BG - or eventually put in lome LMB to control them for me. I want to keep it a SMB pond as long as possible - And I'll keep you all updated as time goes by.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 01:51 PM
F-H,

Another option is to keep a high density of smallmouth to control the small bluegills. I have a very high density of smallmouth I'm growing out for BPS' and they are hammering the small bluegill in the pond. That along with lot of large yellow perch I'm hoping they will keep them under control. However mine are pellet trained and if they overeat the forage hopefully they will fall back on pellets.

Don't assume your smallies aren't pellet trained. If given a choice they will munch on fatheads vs. pellets until the easy prey is gone.

Sorry if you're already mentioned it, and I didn't catch it, but where did your smallmouth come from -- Hicklings in New York? If so, they are pellet trained. If your supplier doesn't raise them directly they may have still come from Hicklings as he produces a lot of smallmouth bass.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/29/10 10:21 PM
In Baird's case how many SMB/ac does it take to "hammer" small BG in a pond? CB1, at this point how big are the SMB and how big are the small BG? Any other small fish in the pond besides BG and YP?
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 08/30/10 01:01 AM
Yes - Hicklings.

Maybe they'd eat pellets - I don't know, I didn't give it a fair shake when I 1st stock in fall 2008 - there seemd to be a lot of forage for them. They sure have LOTS of 1-3" perch and bluegill to keep themselves busy now. I do notice the 2-4" yoy SMB swimming under the dock where the feeder is - they don't come up to get it like the BG do - but they are busy down below.

Of course - I've only had the feeder up a couple weeks - so its all new to me.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 01:48 AM
Going into fall - its nice to see that the 2008 Stocked SMB are chunky and healthy.

I stocked in Oct 2008 - so these two are 2.5 years old.





I haven't seen any of the few larger SMB in quite a while - nor the Brown/Brook trout that have been in a couple years too. Hope the hot August didn't take the trout out.

I am very encouraged to see YOY SMB camping out under the feeder with BG and YP YOY around the dock. The young SMB are quite agressive -and I don't have trouble catching them on a fly. Wonder how many SMB yound have made it to this age? Having any recruitment this early on I'm taking as a good sign.




Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 02:17 AM
Gorgeous looking fish! Absolutely beautiful!
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 02:31 AM
Great looking Smallies F-H, congrats.
Posted By: ewest Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 03:10 AM
Very nice SMB !!!
Posted By: bbjr Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 11:14 AM
They are looking very good, F-H!
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 12:26 PM
Awesome!!!
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 03:43 PM
Are you keeping any catch records F-H? The fish look great!
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/04/10 11:54 PM
I haven't been keeping any individual records - I probably should be shouldn't I. Should I be charting things like length/age or weights?

I have records of what I put in and when -

I'm amazed how the pond went from 10000000s of fry (FH, YP and BG) in July - to very few now - almost hard to find. I also noticed this year that I had MUCH less obvious BG spawning in the spring - and for less a duration. Do you think the surpression of later BG spawning is due to predation?

FH
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 12:10 AM
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Great looking Smallies F-H, congrats.


Sunil must be really proud of you!
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
In Baird's case how many SMB/ac does it take to "hammer" small BG in a pond? CB1, at this point how big are the SMB and how big are the small BG? Any other small fish in the pond besides BG and YP?


Sorry Bill just saw your post.

I planted 200 4 to 5 inch smalies in the 3/4 acre pond last fall! Bluegills are skinny YOY at only about 3/4 to an inch long. Feed trained smallies are running 7 to 11 inches. NOt a lot of vegetation and I hope to eliminate and pond weed with the Whitecap next year. Possibly some fatheads left but it appears there aren't any. Most of the smallies are off the pellets but still with good condition factors so that tells me they are feeding on live forage. I think they also wiped out what tadpoles that survived the spring die off.

I will add 100 more smallies next spring but will keep them in a cage to keep them on pellets.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 12:41 AM
FH - great work. I am interested in hearing what you find out about your SMB predation on YOY YP and BG. We SMB owners want so much to believe SMB can control BG...in my pond it hasn't happened, even with 9-13" YP and almost 150 12-21" HSB. I hope your pond is a different story - as it is I'm faced with constant BG management through trapping and seining.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 01:07 AM
Thanks everyone -

teehjaeh57 - I fully expect the BG to get ahead of the SMB - right now I've got several hundred BG between 5-8" that were fish I stocked also in 2008. We had BG spawns even right after I put some in, in 2008 (not many though). I also put in 20-25 brown trout 7-12" over the last 2 years - and I saw and caught some of them this spring - so I know they made it over the 2 winters - but haven't seen any since. The pond got warm this summer - but I think I still had plenty of water in the 60s. I bet I've got several really big Brown trout helping me out - especially on the perch young. I'd like to catch a couple to see how big they got but they aren't too interested in standard lures - going to have to try some minnows I think.

I will say the 10000s of FH minnow disappeared 1st when the water started to lower out of the cattails and shore grasses. Hopefully enough FH minnows make it to have another great spawn in the spring when the grasses flood.

I'll keep updating this thread with information from my experiment.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 02:04 AM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
FH - great work. I am interested in hearing what you find out about your SMB predation on YOY YP and BG. We SMB owners want so much to believe SMB can control BG...in my pond it hasn't happened, even with 9-13" YP and almost 150 12-21" HSB. I hope your pond is a different story - as it is I'm faced with constant BG management through trapping and seining.


TJ,

I've had smallies before, and actually had them nailing the bluegills while the lazy lmbs lanquished on the pellets. However, as far as keeping up with the bluegills I think it's possible if the density of smallies is very high and there are no places for the bluegills to hide. Of course the pond is mostly male bluegills and the smallies were planted before the bluegill hatched.

As I said I hope to keep weed growth to a minimum next year with the Whitecap. Right now a bait just about anywhere in the pond will be nailed by a smallie vs. the yellow perch or bluegills. Deep or shallow water.

Interestingly I have seen the smallies cruising the shoreline with larger bluegills mixed in. I caught a bluegill the other day that jumped out of the water like a smallmouth. Maybe they think they are smallmouth? grin
Posted By: ewest Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 02:14 AM
Under normal conditions research and knowledgeable opinions indicate poor results of SMB controlling BG.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 04:20 AM
I think you hit an important factor Cecil - lack of shoreline vegetation, shallow water structure, submerged vegetation would render an almost bathtub like environment and would enable the SMB to control much more effectively - or other apex predators for that matter. Unfortunately my pondweed provides more than enough coverage for the BG population to continue to thrive. I've considered decreasing pellet feeding, but am hesitant at best.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 10:30 AM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Under normal conditions research and knowledgeable opinions indicate poor results of SMB controlling BG.

"
I'm well aware of that Eric but this particular pond is anything but "normal." grin Most pond owners wouldn't plant the density of smallies I do.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 10:32 AM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
I think you hit an important factor Cecil - lack of shoreline vegetation, shallow water structure, submerged vegetation would render an almost bathtub like environment and would enable the SMB to control much more effectively - or other apex predators for that matter. Unfortunately my pondweed provides more than enough coverage for the BG population to continue to thrive. I've considered decreasing pellet feeding, but am hesitant at best.


If the pond is not to large, and the expense is not to great, you might want to consider Whitecap or Sonar. I know a couple of sources where you may get it at a more reasonable rate than the typical price.
Posted By: esshup Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 12:07 PM
Cecil, I think TJ's pond is 4x your pond.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/05/10 01:09 PM
Originally Posted By: F-H
I haven't been keeping any individual records - I probably should be shouldn't I. Should I be charting things like length/age or weights?

I have records of what I put in and when -


I don't keep any individual records either. I do however calculate relative weight of LMB that I catch. Your SMB look like they have great Wr to me but I'm certainly no expert.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/06/10 11:57 AM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, I think TJ's pond is 4x your pond.


Yikes! That would be expensive!
Posted By: ewest Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/06/10 01:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: ewest
Under normal conditions research and knowledgeable opinions indicate poor results of SMB controlling BG.

"
I'm well aware of that Eric but this particular pond is anything but "normal." grin Most pond owners wouldn't plant the density of smallies I do.


That is the reason the post says "normal". Just want to be sure the other people who read here know not to count on that (SMB controlling BG) happening unless they intend on using aquaculture type mgt like yours.
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/06/10 04:11 PM
Thanks for reinforcing that point, Ewest. I always worry that we on the forum give "too much credit" to the predatory capability of smallmouth bass. Of course, my worrying leads to conservative management strategies, about which Lusk occasionally reminds me. smile Can't help it -- when you live in the north country, you tend to get conservative.
Posted By: ewest Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/07/10 01:37 AM
Dave said : "Can't help it -- when you live in the north country, you tend to get conservative."

It's just to cold to make a mistake so you have to be careful. laugh
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: SMB Pond Update - 10/08/10 01:43 AM
Originally Posted By: ewest


That is the reason the post says "normal". Just want to be sure the other people who read here know not to count on that (SMB controlling BG) happening unless they intend on using aquaculture type mgt like yours.


Very true. Nothing I do is normal either. Heck I've even been told I'm not normal. crazy
Posted By: Stockin Re: SMB Pond Update - 03/03/11 12:14 AM
Add some HSB to your pond? Or maybe a couple of pike to slow down BG production?
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/18/11 03:05 AM
Bluegill production still seems under control 3+ years in. This year we have established weed growth in the shallows - and possibly more BG yoy might make it through from here on out as a result.

The SMB had another successful spawn - not all of them are old enough to spawn but next year all the orginal 2008 stocked fish will be able to spawn. I see LOTs of YoY SMB this year - more the BG YoY at this point.



this is the standard size of the 2008 stocked fish as of June 2011.



No doubt I need to cull out some BG -
But the pond still seems to have a lot of capacity at this point.

FH
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/18/11 05:35 AM
Very nice! Keep us posted... May have to start thinning out some of the SMB if too many of the YOY make it as well.
Posted By: adirondack pond Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/18/11 10:51 AM
Looks good F-H, grow some big ones.
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/18/11 12:04 PM
Love it!!
Posted By: ewest Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/18/11 01:53 PM
Nice job. How big is that 2008 fish ? I would have expected 3 yr old SMB to be bigger than that by now. I will check on growth rates and post what I find.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/20/11 03:55 AM
He was about 11"

Some are an inch or two more - but they seem light to me too. So far the perch, smallmouth and 2 dozen or so trout have kept the BG masses at bay, maybe too much so.

There were about 50 SMB stocked in 2008. This year with weeds in the 2-4ft depths - I expect more BG to make it - I see LOTs of SMB 2=3". 6-7" and 11-13" - three year classes now. I will no doubt have to cull some SMB soon, but wanted to make sure the BG were in check 1st.
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/20/11 12:52 PM
Are any of the SMB pellet trained?
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/21/11 03:38 AM
no - not pellet trained. I gave it a shot last summer - and the BG became regular users - but the SMB and Perch were no shows. I'm there once a week at best - never could give it a real go with my set up.

I'm really happy with 2 years of reproduction from the SMB - as of now - the BG are not out of control and some are getting some size to them -


Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/21/11 12:08 PM
I've found that my Yellow Perch do come and take feed. I'm sure these YP are born in my pond as my last YP stocking was over 5 years back.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/15/11 02:51 AM
This year - Lots of last year and this years SMB fry have done well.
More than ever. This is the 4th year of the pond.



Unfortunatley - so far it looks like the Bluegill also had an exceptional year and for the 1st time - I'm worried that the SMB (now 4 year classes) will not be able to keep up. I see very very few perch and I had schools of 2 year classes of young perch this spring after spawning.

Now the water is murky - and I cann see everything - but I'm concerned I might have to get LMB involved.
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/15/11 11:24 AM
Putting LMB in could lead to a steady decline in the SMB population unless you plan on continuing to stock SMB as the years go on.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/16/11 11:31 PM
Yea Sunil -I understand that. I like LMB - and figured at some point they would have to go in. I wanted several years of SMB spawning and establishment beforehand and so far I've got Two years. I'll give an honest evaluation next spring - and if I've got 1000s of young 2" BG, I'll have to make the decision. There is quite a few SMB 10-14" in the pond now - they migh do a number on the BG this fall/winter - We'll see. If I get 3 good spawn years from the SMB - I'll consider it a success. We have LMB in the neighbors pond and it will be easy to transplant a dozen 12" LMB or so if I need to. I'll keep everyone updated.


Posted By: adirondack pond Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/17/11 12:43 AM
F-H looks like a real successful SMB pond, have you considered adding tiger trout in the fall to cut down on the population of smaller fish, they're very aggressive and even though not as efficient as LMB you wouldn't be stuck with another problem as they probably wouldn't make it through the summer.
Cobleskill college raises them and their also for sale, just a suggestion.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/17/11 05:16 AM
Perhaps some chan pickerel could be an option as well. They won't out compete the SMB like the LMB would. Should be fairly easy to find a dozen in your area to transplant.
Posted By: RAH Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/17/11 11:19 AM
Are there chain pickerel in Indiana? It would be cool to add them to my pond.
Posted By: Sunil Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/17/11 01:20 PM
Can you try to add single sex LMB? It seems that might be a close-to-perfect solution.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/17/11 02:22 PM
The SMB appear thin bodied which can be verified with standard weight or a Wr. Low SW suggests not ideal conditions and usually points to lack of food. In your case I think it is not a lack of food but lack of proper sized or shaped food. Again IMO, a good example that SMB don't do well with BG. Do well in this case is plump rapidly growing SMB. Although SMB growth rate in your pond is acceptable it is just SW is a little low; not bad just a little low. On the positive side, abundant small SMB can make for high catch rates and some fast action fun angling.

Your comment of "I see very very few perch...." is a sign to me that the SMB are targeting YP harder than they are preying on BG. YP in most ponds can be almost as prolific as BG. Low numbers of YP in your pond is probably not due to poor spawning conditions. The other factor here is when BG become very common or abundant with food shortages they will exert a pretty strong predatory force on hatchling YP and fry up to 0.7-1" long which will result in lower year classes of YP. YP hatch is at 50F, when invertebrates are not heavily emerging nor peaking thus all 2 yr+ BG who are able to eat fish fry are coming out of winter thin bodied and hungry. It would not suprise me if lots of small BG are not gathered around exposed, hatching YP egg strands and consuming lots and lots of newly hatching YP fry. YP do not provide any protection to their egg strands. Lack of adult YP who in winter reportedly eat quite a few 1" BG, is another factor for higher numbers of surviving BG contributing to BG over abundance.

I don't think you want to do any thinning of the SMB. Keep them thin, hungry and aggressive as possible on the small BG. IMO and experience you want them to be slightly on the stunted side to exert all the predatory pressure possible on the prolific BG population.

I think you should annually when you are at the pond for a long weekend or an extended stay make a concerted effort to remove 3-5" BG. This can be effectively done in a 3/4 ac pond with a few large traps, targeted angling if possible some seining. Although trapping and angling will do a lot to annually remove 300-500 small BG from a 3/4 ac pond; it is 'doable' in a few days time. If you can assist the SMB esp until the SMB get to be 16"-18", then it should take a little less effort to make this fishery work a little more successfully before other species of predators are introduced. IMO help the smallies a little, let them get to 16"-18" for a few years and then decide if the fishery needs stocking adjustment.

Regarding other predators in this pond, IMO most of them will eat a significant number of small SMB compared to the same percentage of small BG primmarily because smb are more fusiform than BG. Granted predators are to a large extent opportunistic in feeding habits oftreneating what is most abundant or vulnerable. But this topic does need much more good research. Small BG will be eaten by chain pickerel or other predator, but relatively speaking losing 50 small (1.5"-3") smb from this fishery has much more impact that loosing 200-300 2"-3" BG.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 09/20/11 03:42 AM
I'm right there with you Bill - and thanks everyone for your input. I notice the SW of the SMB as well - and the thinning perch poplulation - so it seems at this date. I'll reserve any further judgement until Spring 2012. We will be removing some BG this fall during our Annual Bowhunter - Bluegill fish fry weekend. Probably not a lot of 3-4" fish this fall though.

One good thing about a small pond - is that corrections can be made with some effort. LMB won't be going in this fall - but come June - I'll have to make a decision.
Posted By: F-H Re: SMB Pond Update - 06/14/12 04:11 AM
Had some great BG fish frys - they could be a little heavier all the way around - but the mature BG averaged about 8" and looked about like this this spring.



I can catch plenty of SMB - but I think they are undersized - the 4 year olds are about 12-14" and skinny. got lots of 3"- 8" 2 year class SMB as well. I think they cannot use the BG for full growth. The last 2 years I had lots of young perch - but this year - I see none. I haven't seen a fathead minnow in 3 years.

Here's an orignal stocked SMB - caught a couple weeks ago -



pond is about 3/4 acre - not lots of weed cover.

I'm considering adding LMB - to help me manage the BG going forward, even if its at the cost of the SMB ultimatley. I always knew this was a possiblity - and I think I could have gone longer had I gone perch only and not bluegill as well.

My question to all of you - is - do I add 20 or so year old LMB or a few 12"+ LMB and let them do their thing?
Maybe I let it be as it is one more year? whats the worst that can happen?

Thanks!!


Posted By: RockvilleMDAngler Re: SMB Pond Update - 07/17/12 08:26 PM
I think you should add golden shiners. Go to http://www.andersonminnows.com/ and order 100 adult golden shiners. Next April order one of their boxes of golden shiner fry and stock them. If you get a good GSH population established it will really help your smb. I would look into adding 10 adult (15+") female LMB to help keep the bluegill in check, this way you won't have to worry about LMB taking over the pond.
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