Last year I stocked the pond with bluegill and largemouth. Today I caught a larger bluegill for the first time. I was surprised by is markings. Is it a bluegill or pumpkinseed?

Definitely a pumpkinseed

Hmmmm. Not what I ordered from the hatchery. Is a PS/LMB pond much different from a BG/LMB pond?

Yep...but just because you caught a pumpkinseed doesn't mean you don't have a bass/bluegill pond.
Bluegill will spawn a couple of times yearly in SE PA, and Pumpkinseeds will spawn once. BG will throw more food into the food chain. Look at your pumpkinseeds as an added bonus. No threat to your fishery.

Thank you. I'm all for added bonuses. I learn something new every day - especially here.

If it's a pure pumpkinseed where's the red on the ear tab? I could only hope to be at Bob's level of knowledge but the black scale tips and lack of a red ear tab point to a bg X ps hybrid for me.

BG/PS/LMB ponds are common up north.

Absolutely although in my area it's hard to find heavy concentration of punkies with bluegills. They are an incidental catch.

He stocked his pond only a year ago. I would say a cross is not logical. The fish haven't had time to grow up, mature and then spawn to create a hybrid that could be this size. If this is a hybrid, it had to come from the hatchery and stocked as a 3-4 inch fish. Mouth size and all other markings suggest pumpkinseed to me. I agree, the gill tab should have some red, but I have seen much stranger things.
Just for clarity...I have been known to be wrong way too much to suit my ego.
I just can't see how it could be anything but.
My guess is that this fish was common to the watershed and has grown to its size. I would just enjoy it and not worry about it. It's not a big deal.

I have seen many PS without red on their ear tabs. It's just a genetic anomaly.

I have fished plenty a ponds that have BG/PS/LMB and they produce quality fisheries. PS aren't the northern equivalent to RES as Dr. Willis has written, but they are not harmful IMO.

That's my contention -- that it came from the source whatever that was -- already a hybrid. I think we know that is entirely possible due to human error at a hatchery, not eradicating a species completely from the previous year in the production pond, or the flooding of two adjacent ponds etc.




Correct me if I'm wrong but don't hybrids end up resembling their parents in different degrees not necessarily a 50/50 mix? I.e. with a ps X bg hybrid some would be closer to a ps and some would be resemble more a bg? Why couldn't some of the offspring look more like a ps with mouth size and markings?





My point has nothing to do with worrying about it or making it a big deal. I just don't see it as a pure pumpkinseed whatever the origin.

Let's just agree to disagree. I do enjoy the debate and don't question your expertise one bit.

How can you be sure they were not hybrids? Did you do a DNA test?

After studying that photo much more closely than the quick look yesterday, I do see several characteristics that suggest Cecil may be right. I don't buy into the lack of red on the ear flap as a solitary reason that fish is a hybrid, but I do see a couple of other things that suggest it could be, in addition to the ear flap. The pelvic fins are darker than they should be. So is the anal fin. I've worked with and handled my fair share of pumpkinseeds and most (heavy on the word 'most)have yellowish pelvic and anal fins. So, with this single, solitary photographic example of one fish out of gazillions...we may be looking at a hybrid (heavy on the word 'may').
The follow up question is "So what?"
Cecil did spur deeper thinking on my part than just the obvious. I presume, when you say you bought fish from a hatchery, the hatchery is reputable. I also presume you have an invoice for the fish you bought. Go back and read it and make sure it says "bluegill" on it. While you are doing that, take time to catch some more fish and make sure they don't look a bit like the one you caught. Make double-sure you have bluegill.
Here's where I'm going. If Cecil is right, you may have a pond full of hybrids, stocked by the hatchery. If you don't, that single, solitary specimen is an anomaly. As an anomaly, its presence is irrelevant, other than to start a little forum debate about its parentage.
The assumption I made is that you bought fish from good people and they were good fish. I assume you got what you paid for. The conclusion I drew was that this fish was already in the watershed and made its way into your pond, got a head start, and has outgrown everyone else and you happened to catch it. I also conclude it could not be a hybrid spawned in your pond. It had to come from somewhere else.
That's my newest story and I might be stickin' to it (heavy on the word 'might')

I have seen PS mixed in w/ BG when I have stocked my pond in the past.

You're both in PA. I wonder if it was the same hatchery?

Although as Bob says a reputable hatchery should know better, I've noticed as far as anglers are concerned in parts of the northeast I've fished in , they put bluegills, pumpkinseeds, green sunfish etc. all in one group and call them "sunfish." Maybe at least one hatchery does too?

In Massachusetts where I lived as a kid they go as far as considering all "sunfish" trash fish and cuss out even a big one if it hits their line while they are fishing for trout or bass. An avid New England bass angler told me he would be happy if i caught every last one of them out of a local small lake. In retrospect I should have asked him what he thought the bass eat.

The ratio might have been 50:1 or 100:1 BG:PS.

Not a concern for me, but maybe for the purist!

Who did you get your fish from?

My guy was essentially a middle man; he had no actual hatchery, but instead went and bought bulk fish and sold them off in one long loop-type trip. I don't know who his source was for the bluegill.

Rob,

Who did you get your fish from?

Gill rakers are pretty good at determining sunfish species. Like almost anything it's not sure fire though. All the ones I saw without red edges certainly could have been hybrids, but the gill rakers and my experience lead me to believe otherwise. Lepomids are very interesting fish!

Kurtz Fish Hatchery in Elverson, PA. About 30 miles north of me. He's legit. Been around for a while. My pond was drained and rebuilt 2 years ago so the fish were all stocked by me. Seems the hatchery gave me some hybrids or PS by mistake. Guess I'll have to keep fishing to see how many are in there.

If it is a hybrid BG/PS should I assume it's sterile and can't reproduce?

I agree with CJ. Wisc Fish has pic of PS , BG and Hybrid gill rakers. Also has morph info. My 2 cents is if that is a hybrid it is mostly PS (high %). Will do some more checking and report. Check out Wisc Fish and compare morph of PS to the pic fish above and see what you think.

Cecil I don't know if the genome of most lepomis, not to mention hybrids, have been mapped.There may well be some specific marker gene strands ided but probably not on mixed hybrids. So if you had a mixed hybrid even the genetic experts may not be able from that info alone to id the fish. So IMO the question of "How do you know if its pure, did you have the genetics checked " on a lepomis hybrid is irrelevent. I bet not one person on this Forum has ever had or seen lepomis genes checked with Dave Willis being a possible exception. Now Green Carp (LMB) are a different matter.

It is probably not sterile. Almost all lepomis have cross viability with non sterile hybrids. I will check and report back.

I don't think that is a problem to worry about though.

Definetly a hybrid. PS x catfish. The whiskers give it away.
I'm supprised you guys didn't notice that.

How would PS do with SMB & RES?

I think we will have a better idea after Dr. Willis' talk at PB Con III.

Those of you who can't make it to Big Cedar Lodge need to clamor for him to turn it into a PBMag article ASAP.

My wife saw the picture and asked about the whiskers. She was serious.

Other than northern climes where RES cannot survive... From what I have read, RES tend to out compete PS. I have seen them all in the same body of water. If I recall correctly, RES tend to push PS to different food sources.

I could prob. swing it & would really very very much like to be at the conference but I'm in a circle the wagons mode with things tightening up & an uncertain future.

Pleading to Dr Dave .... Do the article!!!!!!
I would truly love see Big Cedar & meet all you guys.

CJ, I know RES tend to occupy deeper water than BG, in relation to RES where in the water colum is PS?
What other food sources would PS turn to?

With no BG in the pond there should be enough food for both PS and RES. The PS will be dominated by the RES but should be ok as they will take on the place of the BG. The PS will out reproduce the RES. I would be more concerned that with just SMB that the PS will produce to many offspring and may stunt.

Actually Eric there was a PHD at Illinois Natural History that was studying pumpkinseed bluegill hybrids in Canada. From my understanding he had the DNA for both hybrids and pure pumpkinseeds. I know this because I took in to mount a potential world record pumpkinseed or pumpkinseed hybrid. (It weighed 1 lb. 6 oz.)

The problem was, (I apologize if I posted this already on the site) it got complicated when I took it to a local biologist station to have it identified. One biologist came in late to work and said, "Hybrid!" from 20 feet away and refused to even look at it. The other was more conscientous and took the time to key it out down to the gillrakers. He believed it was a pure pumpkinseed even though it did not have the red tip to the ear tab. It was a dead ringer for a pumpkinseed, but just did not have the red tip to the ear tab.

Anyway, I was left with the dilemna that it now needed to be checked via DNA as these two biologists did not agree. The PHD at Illinois Natural History offered to check the DNA and but then apparently backed out when I wanted to arrange shipment of part of the carcass. That is, he wouldn't answer his emails and wouldn't return my calls.

So to this day we have no idea if it's a world record hybrid pumpkinseed (IGFA said they would make a category if it was), or it tied the world record as a pure pumpkinseed. My state does not even have a state record category for a pumpkinseed.

I'm still miffed at the arrogant biologist that refused to even look at it.

Cecil there are some studies out there and genetic testing done (not full genome but some markers) on some lepomis including PS and a little on hybrids. Most done by PhD's in genetics. Very uncommon in normal fisheries biologists not to mention pond owners.

Interesting you note that even on a potential world record the guy did not do the DNA testing. It is not cheap to have done nor easy to find people trained and willing to do the work. There is really no reason to have them tested as morphological traits will give good answers. I will try to find the results from a study that used jaw bone length to pect. fin length which was IIRC cross checked by DNA and found to have a very high degree of accuracy. Gill rakers are so-so as BG and PS gill rakers are similar.

Thanks ewest, thats the insight I needed. It would be neat to have PS but I think YP will be a better forage for the SMB. If I can find a reliable source for YP.