Fellas, I have been contacted by Scott Rakers in Southern Illinois. He is a future Pond Boss Subscriber and followed Kens advice to a tee. Although he has grown some nice fish relatively quick, he is not happy with the results so far.
Just wondering if anybody has some time to dissect his situation, give some recommendations, or share any experiences, or scrounge up some search results. Scott will be chiming in shortly.
This is from Scott:When I purchased the property the lake was shallow (average 4 feet deep) and full of lilly pads. I drained the lake and dug out 30,000 cy of dirt in August of 2006 and with heavy rains it filled up quickly, even though only 15 to 20 acres of drainage area drain into the lake. With guidance from Ken at Ken’s Fish Farm in Georgia, the lake was constructed 14 feet deep on dam end and 7 feet deep on shallow end. The sides are all steep at 3H:1V slope. Ken said by leaving the slopes steep, the vegetation growth would be minimal and he said not to place structure or vegetation in the lake and these allow for small fish to escape/survive and could result in small size fish being overpopulated. In May of 2007 I put 15 lbs. of fathead minnows in the lake, on October 6 of 2007 I put 5,000 Georgia Giant Bluegill in the lake, in May of 2008 I put 300 largemouth bass in the lake and on October 6 of 2008 I put 300 catfish in the lake. All the fish were fingerlings (1” to 3”) when I put them in. During the warmer months of 2008 I ran an aerator during the evening hours, I had 3 bug-o-matic lights working which cripple the bugs which fall into the water for fish food and I also fed the fish twice a day. I also use blue pond dye.
I would appreciate if you read the last paragraph closely and advise if what I am doing is correct. The reason I ask is I am very disappointed in the fishing results. Last year we could catch the bass, but hardly any Georgia Giants. I tried to contribute this to maybe there were plenty of fathead minnow baitfish and the Georgia Giants weren’t hungry. But, when I fed the fish and even underneath the bug lights at night, I never observed any fish coming to eat the feed nor the bugs. This year thus far, fishing results are not any better. We have caught a total of 5 bluegill in 3 outings. The bluegill we caught are nice & fat for only 1.5 years old, but I do not understand why we aren’t catching a lot more (I put 5,000 into the lake) and I don’t understand why I don’t observe them eating crippled bugs off the surface under the bug lights or eating the fish feed.
In closing, I am scared something may have happened to the Georgia Giants, with putting 5,000 in the lake, I would think I would catch them A LOT more easily. Any thoughts or suggestions? What is easiest way to determine how many Georgia Giants are still actually in the lake?
Again, thanks for your help!
Picture of Ryan his son:
How big is the pond/lake?
You guys run for cover !! We have been through this before. I will add some links.
3.2 acres and has some creeping water primrose and some FA around the edges.
Thanks Eric, bring 'em on.
Any photos, or eyewitness accounts of the fish's condition when they were released?
I fear the worst.
So 1,562 GG/acre? Sounds a little bit high.
I wonder why Ken didn't recommend his "Smallmouth Bass" (really HSB).
I think the recommended slope of the pond, 3:1, is maybe a tad dangerous for kids.
It's odd that he does not see fish coming to feed.
More information is needed.
Hello, Scott, and welcome to the Forum.
The 500 pound gorilla in the room which has not yet bluntly been addressed is that many/most of those 5000 GG may have died, very soon after stocking. We have seen some (very) poor survival rates for them reported (by witnesses I consider more credible than anyone except my wife) when they were shipped far from Georgia.
May I ask what condition your bass and (channel?) catfish are in? Size/body condition?
Virtually no bream, as may be the case here, is a fixable condition. Unfortunate, but it can be corrected without extreme measures. I believe you have a competent and caring professional consultant/fish squeezer(s) in Nate (& Justin).
I am new to this, so hang with me. I actually purchased the fish through a distributor of Ken's in northern Indiana (Rim Rum). I picked them up myself and transported them to my lake in the back seat of my air conditioned extended cab truck. The drive back to my lake was 4 hours. They were contained in 4 large oxygenated plastic bags set inside cardboard boxes. When I released them into the lake, I set the bags into the water and allowed the water temp in the bags to slowly match the lake temp before releasing the fish into the lake. The only species in the lake at that time should have been FH minnows. They had survived well and populated multiple times as there were schools of them throughout the lake. Also, I did not notice any dead fish in the days/weeks after releasing them. But, only being 1 to 2" long, they may not have been visible?
The bass appear healthy and average 10" in length. The catfish I don't know yet as they were fingerlings when put in last fall (2008) and I have yet to see any this year.
I have tried crickets, worms, wax worms, meal worms, corn and jigs/lures with virtually no success on the Georgia Giants. I will read the links you guys have provided and definitely keep communicating on this. You guys are great and thanks!!!
Eric,
That fish in the second picture looks like the gobies we have in the Great lakes.
A goby:
Scott: Your hauling and release methods sound, well, sound.
WOW Eric, that was a lot of reading. That's OK I didn't want to do any billable work today anyway.
I actually read that entire set of links. VERY interesting reading. That all happened before I joined the forum. Prior to joining and posting I had read through much of the pond boss posts (took a couple of weeks) but at that time I didn't understand what was going on with the GG issue (I didn't know a Georgia Giant from a Mississippi Midget - LOL Burger). So I skipped a lot of it. Now I get (at least some of the issues).
Anyway, not trying to start any battles here, just saying that was interesting reading. If you read through that Scott I believe you'll have an educational experience as well.
Welcome to Pond Boss Scott, we're glad you found us. It's not about pointing fingers here it's about pond meisters helping pond meisters. Post any questions that you have. (Just don't address them to me).
Here is more . The links above also contain what many here thought of Ken's suggestions. Nate how can we help you with fixing the situation ?
I figured collectively we could possibly help come up with a gameplan or suggestions for Scott to help get him where he would like his pond to be. He is a little far south for me to actually go to his pond, I am completely booked solid for the entire season.
Stock adult BG and (if possible) a smaller number of adult RES. You won't need the size so much to escape predation (with 10" bass), but to get some spawning going ASAP. I would look for bream 6"+. We usually recommend on the order of 30-50 adult BG per care to establish a population; how does 150 BG and 50 RES sound as a starting point for discussion?
I got my Georgia Giants from Rim Rum too...but quite the contrary, I am seeing great results from all fish I placed in my acre pond and the GG were like 1" fingerlings when I put them in...I worried they would survive too....I wonder if the 4 hour ride, may have been much for your fish.
Mark tell us your story and pond situation.
I agree add adult BG and RES. Also follow tried and true fisheries science advice from guys like Nate and forget any advice from Ken's. That stocking advice they provided is garbage. Think about this - A few FH (5 lbs per acre) and 5000 GG that don't produce hardly any offspring - and dye that suppresses plankton production - what were those 300 LMB going to eat - not much. With no structure or shallow water where were thee FH going to reproduce and live - not much.
Can you do a seine survey or make notes from observations looking for small fish , types and numbers. The more info the better.
I HAVE A ? I BOUGHT 5000 GG TO YEARS AGO AND CAN NOT CATCH ANYTHING MORE THAN 3 4 IN
WHAT IS A GOOD BITE TO USE I HAVE USA NIGHT CRAWERS RED WIGGLERS CRICKITS
NO I HAVEN'T DOES THAT WORK GOOD AND WHAT IS THAT BEST TIME TO CATCH THEM
Theo , you say his hauling and release methods sound, well sound. I surely don't have much experience moving fish and am not as experienced as you but isn't that hauling 1250 fish per bag for 4 hrs and then perhaps another 1/2 hr in them for temp transition? Just seems like those bags would have to be VERY large.
Bob-o, my sentiments exactly. I would think 2-300 max. per bag with plenty of O2. But, it was stated that no floaters were seen. I dont think they were GG, from Georgia, but the same hybrids sold elsewhere, and they use Holyokes name to sell them.
It seems like in every Ken Holyoke stocking, the fish end up being an afterthought to dyes, chemicals, water testings, feed, etc. I know he's in questionable health, but quite the charmer and it seems that he has some disciples.
Buyer, beware.
I remember that Meadowlark got a 1st class stocking of GG, but I am sure that was because Deb was calling the shots. They have regressed.
My goal was to have a lake with good/fun fishing. I love to catch panfish and so do the kids, as the action with the intended panfish population should be fast. I wanted a lake with lots of big panfish, LB to control the small population and catfish as an added bonus. I am starting to aerate again and will be firing up the bug lights and feeder within the next 2 weeks. I will monitor the bug lights and feeder to see if there is any active feeding. Last year there was no action under the bug lights nor at the feeder. The only thing visisbly feeding at the feeder where the FH's nibbling on the pellets. Thus far this year, I have observed no indication of spawning activity around any of the edges.
In response to some of the other posts, although only 15 lbs, the FH were put in 6 months in advance of the GG stocking and over a year in advance of the LB stocking. I know the FH's reproduced heavily as there were schools of them all over the lake. To the post who mentioned having purchased 5,000 GG and having good success, were yours delivered in plastic bags (if so, how many bags) or were they shipped and stocked by truck?
Any suggestions on the best way to determine how many GG are actually in my lake (seining, shocking, etc.)? Did I not receive near the amount I thought? Did they somehow die although they appeared active and healthy when I stocked them? Is there somehow so much food for them they are not aggresive? Do I need to have the water tested? Should I contact my IDNR fisheries biologist for advice? Thanks for the advice everyone.
Finally, what is RES?
Theo , you say his hauling and release methods sound, well sound ... isn't that hauling 1250 fish per bag ... Just seems like those bags would have to be VERY large.
I missed the number of bags.
Were they like, huge?
Hybrid BG have a place but it is not in a balanced fishery. If you don't see or catch any after awhile, I figure they didn't survive and need to move on to repair and restocking.
In a closely monitored and managed small pond, I often recommend hybrids. But, that's not often and it's usually in a small pellet fed pond with channel cats.
Flick, if you aren't seeing or catching them on worms and crickets, there is no magic bait. They just aren't there.
You really shouldn't have to do pond dyes or anything else when you stock hybrids, no matter what they are called.
Scott why not hire Nate to come shock it for you to see what you have in there at this time? Also stop using lake dye durign growing season if you want more fish it hurts big time. Also 15 lbs FH in 3.2 acres is about right not "only" that many. Do you stil see them? Good luck being from GA I have had to do many corrections and client not happy after spending lots of money.
Scott,
Regardless of whether the GG are in the pond, you still are going to want to get some regular bluegill and RES- Redear Sunfish stocked right away. Not very many of your bass will ever get larger than 12 inches on their current diet.
At this stage you have many options, and it all boils down to your exact goals, timeframe, and budget. As far as bluegill stocking, I would recommend stocking adult bluegill ASAP. 50 per acre would surely be more than enough to get your new population started, but you could stock as many as 500 per acre if you would like to get rolling on catching and feeding them this spring.
Also if your goal is panfish, their is no problem at all with stocking and feeding hybrid bluegill in your pond. I would recommend getting them from Pete with Logan Hollow or some other local fish hatchery. An idea would simply be to stock 500 adult hybrids this season, then keep stocking every year however many you harvest in a particular year. Just a thought? You have tons more options when you plan on feeding the fish.
There is no right or wrong way to manage your pond, and you have many, many options on what to make it from here. First thing is to not get discouraged, it doesnt take long to get your fishery where you want it to be. Everybody on this website are literally fish raising geniuses, but also keep in mind that their suggestions and ideas will be somewhat biased towards their ultimate goals and management practices. That has been a big challenge for me to overcome when consulting with pondowners, before any recommendations can be made, I need to know exactly which direction to head.
If you clearly define what you want your pond fishing to be, and how fast you want it to get there, you will get much more direct advice on how to get there.
In my experience, bluegill hit anything, even sometimes a bare hook. If you can't catch them on worms, flies, maggots, waxworms, etc., the fish are not there.
I wouldn't look back on the GG stocking. I would only look forward.
Getting pure bluegill in there in the quantities already discussed is a step in the right direction.
With all the feeding you are doing, bug-lites & fish feed, you will see very good growth with standard bluegill plus reap the benefit of them heavily breeding and producing food for the other fish (LMB, CC).
I would also stop using the dye.
If its any consolation for you, before finding Pond Boss, I would have had no basis to doubt any of Holyoke's advice.
There are a number of studies/articles that say never stock HBG with other lepomis (BG , RES etc). A couple of the top guys here further stated the types/species don't get along well and create spawning problems , IIRC.
I think that is generally good advice but in certain situations (goals) and in low relative #s (of HBG) it can be done effectively to meet those goals. This is one of those "it all depends" matters. I agree with Nate on this one and would try it under the circumstances. That is stock some HBG (not GG) after I got some adult BG and RES in and spawning.
The # of FH Greg indicated was enough is for situations where there will be other substantial forage not as the only forage for LMB. I have never heard any FS or knowledgeable pond guy say they thought you could have a LMB population with FH only. That is what Ken suggested to Scott.
Scott we can provide info on population matters (seine survey , creel/catch data , etc). Take a look at this thread/links from the archives.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492. Also start with this in general.
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf at pgs 10-12.
RES = Red Eared Sunfish. We use a lot of acronyms here, it can be daunting at first.
Here's a link to the list of acronyms. You might want to print it out for reference at first. After a while you'll get use to it.
Daunting was my attempts to read the threads you guys provided. Wow, there is alot of stuff there. I followed some of it but not all. It seemed all over the board. I certainly had no idea it would come to this when I posed the intial question to Nate. I didn't intend to open a can of worms. However, I am pleased as you all have opened my eyes and shared alot of good information.
I today spoke with an IDNR fisheries biologist and combining his thoughts with the awesome information you all have provided me, here is my game plan:
I will assume no or very few GG exist in the lake(3.2 acres). I am going to stock 750 BG (4"-6") and if only 3"-5" available, I will stock 1,000 BG. Also, I am going to stock 250 RES - I am checking on their availability and size. Next week, prior to purchasing the fish, I am going to attempt the seine a portion of the lake and if there are in fact very few GG, continue with game plan. If I find quantities of GG's and especially if various sizes, I will step back and rethink. I will take photos and measurements if we have anything in the seine. I also intend to add some structure to the lake. There is currently filamentateous algae and water primrose around the edges. I intend to eliminate the algae and half of the water primrose.
If anyone thinks I am going in the wrong direction, please let me know.
The FH have all been eaten. Multiple posts suggested NOT TO USE POND DYE. Can someone explain why not to help me understand?
What kind/size seine do you have available, Scott. I think it will make a difference on whether you get many adult sunfish.
I almost never get any over 6" with my 20 footer, but the monsters Lusk and Condello use will catch about anything. OTOH they may just be a lot better at it than I am.
Multiple posts suggested NOT TO USE POND DYE. Can someone explain why not to help me understand?
Planktonic algae feeds the base of the food chain for your fish, pond dyes cut the amount light down significantly which reduces the amount of algae produced. If you are going to use pond dyes for weed control try using it only during the late fall and early spring when algae production is very minimal.
When I was a toddler, I would tag along with my dad and uncles seining ponds for fish, snapping turtles, etc. One of my uncles still has the seines. I believe they are both 50 to 75 feet long with one being 6 feet deep and the other 8 feet deep. My dad is checking on them now. Fun times back then.
Get ready for fun times now too!!!
Daunting was my attempts to read the threads you guys provided. Wow, there is alot of stuff there. I followed some of it but not all. It seemed all over the board. I certainly had no idea it would come to this when I posed the initial question to Nate. I didn't intend to open a can of worms. However, I am pleased as you all have opened my eyes and shared alot of good information.
Just keep in mind that everyone here wants you to succeed. You have a very mixed group of people on this forum from goofs like me to professionals like Bill Cody (one of the most respected and knowledgeable people in pondom). That's what makes this site so cool. We have access the best of the best in pond related stuff. Ewest posted those links just to give you back ground about Georgia Giants not to discourage you from asking questions.
So ask any and all questions and keep participating, that's what keeps the forum going.
Absolutely - ask all the questions - that's how to learn. We will help all we can. No can of worms opened. That was my way of letting Nate know the info was here and strongly debated at the time. One thing about this site everyone here wants good advice provided to pond owners and can't tolerate bad advice given in a reckless manner that causes problems like the ones you have experienced. We wish those things did not occur to good people.
I just wish google would pick up some of these threads. When I first started trying to correct a local pond they were one of the first fisheries I made contact with. Good thing I never followed up on it.
Scott,
Your plan is sound, get rolling on the bluegill because fish moving days for this spring are almost gone. Even if you do find some numbers of GG, your pond will benefit from the BG immediately and down the road.
Although I am known to spark controversy and do love a good argument, I knew Scott you would ultimately learn 1000 times more about your pond by directing you to this thread on Pond Boss instead of just simply giving you some recommendations via email. Just by your email about the work you have done to construct and stock your pond, you seemed like a guy who would soak up a bit more information than the average joe.
Let me know if you can get the fish this spring? Also if you would do me a favor and just keep me updated via this thread about your pond, fish, creeping water primrose control, etc that would be great! I get Georgia Giant questions all the time and am always curiously experimenting.
BTW, I have stocked well over 10,000 GG for my own ponds, also been ripped off by an arkansas guy selling free fish, and have made more mistakes stocking and accidentally killing fish than I would dare advertise to the world. I was thirsting for pond and fish knowledge and unfortunately found the georgia and arkansas people before I found the pond boss people.
Nate - Last Friday I checked with Logan Hollow Fish Farm by Murphysboro in southern Illinois. Saturday was to be the last day to purchase fish, as they were getting ready to put all tank fish back into their ponds. So, on Saturday morning, I drove to Logan Hollow and purchased 1,500 SBG (3"-5"), 500 RES (1"-2"), 200 Channel Catfish (6"-8") and 20 lbs of FH's and put them in my lake. They were in good shape and very active when I released them into the lake. I went a little high on the SBG because I couldn't get 4"-6" and I thought some may get eaten by existing LB. A big thank you to Pete and his folks at Logan Hollow Fish Farm. They were wonderful and went out of their way to help me.
So, this all happened quickly, but I am excited and looking forward to this summer and hopefully good things happen. On Saturday I programmed the aerator to run at night and have the feeder feeding at 6:30 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. In two weeks I will turn the bug lights on. When the water gets a little warmer, I am still going to seine a portion of the lake. I will let you know what we capture. Also, today I will be ordering the chemicals I need to control the creeping water primrose and moss.
The only reason I had been using pond dye was for aesthetics. I had no idea is was harmful to the food chain. I will use it no longer.
The feed I intend to use is AQUAMAX Grower 500. It is 3/16" size with 41% minimum protein, 12% minimum fat and 4% maximum fiber. Any thoughts on this - am I using the right feed?
Thanks Nate and all others!!!
I think you will get nothing but good choice in the Aquamax 500...
Dave think it means straight or aka native or aka missippi strian bluegill and not cnbg.
I was trying to refer to straight bluegill (BG). I didn't have the list of acronyms available - sorry.
No problem. I tried to think of every possible combination but missed straight.
AM 500 is a good all around food for the fish you have. The CC and BG can do well on lower % than 41% ( 32 is enough) but the BG growth rate may be better at 41%. I mix AM 500 and GFC with good results. With those sizes of fish I would stay with AM 500 for the next few mths.
Wow, now that is getting er done in the nick of time!
Pump the food to those fish big time! Document that they are 3-5 inches right now, keep track of how much food you use this summer, and then document how big the BG are at the end of the summer. You will be amazed at how fast those fish will grow.
I would suggest to change your feed times to 9 am and 5 pm until the water warms up a bit. That will keep the catfish off of the food a bit better and let more bluegill eat! Catfish will tend to hog the feeders towards dawn and dusk.
ewest - what is GFC?
Nate - I will switch feeder times as you suggested. The reason I was doing dawn/dusk is less windy and food doesn't blow to the shoreline as quickly. I am going to my farm tomorrow afternoon and Thursday and will observe the feeder. I currently have the feeder stationed in a deeper part of the lake, probably 11 feet deep. Is that ok or should I move it were the water is shallower?
The Aquamax 500 is for carniverous fish, which I believe is appropriate for BG. Is that ok for the CC to eat also? I think CC is a omniverous fish. What is the difference between carniverous and omniverous fish foods?
Sorry Scott. GFC is Game Fish Chow by Purina. It is 32% protein and has multi sized pellets to cover all sizes of fish.
"What is the difference between carnivorous and omnivorous fish foods? "
Usually the % protein and its source. Omnivorous don't need as high a % protein and their food has plant material as a higher protein source as opposed to fish meal. Fish meal costs more than plant material (usually soy products).
CC will do fine with AM 500 as a supplemental food source.
I spent last Thursday thru Monday at my farm where my lake is located (Southern Illinois). On Friday morning I sprayed the algae and primrose with the chemicals I purchased from Herman Brothers. On Saturday, the primrose was already turning brown.
On 3 of those days, we tried fishing with crickets, meal worms and corn and did not catch any Georgia Giants. The only thing we caught were a few small BG and CC. We did catch bass on rooster tails and jigs. I did locate a 100 foot long seine and next time at the farm we are going to seine a portion of the lake.
I am feeding at 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. as Nate suggested and I was pleasantly surprised to see the BG eating the feed. I did not notice any other fish other than BG. They seem to be eating all the feed the feeder dispenses each time and at other times throughout the day, I would throw out handfuls of feed and they would eat it also. Should I feed more than twice per day if they are still hungry?
Also, I reinstalled the bug lights which at night cripple the bugs onto the water surface. There were mayflies and other bugs falling to the surface, but I did not notice any of the crippled bugs being eaten. I also noticed near dusk the BG seemed to stop eating the feed. So, I guess my question is will BG, LB and/or CC feed on the crippled bugs on the surface at night? If so, why aren’t they eating the crippled bugs? Are the bug lights a gimmick or do they work?
I walked the entire perimeter of the lake and did not notice any spawning activity at all (no LB, BG or Georgia Giants).
I do have a large population of mature bullfrogs. Does that mean anything for the fish?
I have seen the bug lights work best when kept near a bigger light, such as a green light.
In my pond the smaller bluegills were the only ones interested in surface feeding on the bugs that hit the water by the bug light. The larger bluegills seems to stay deep all the time.
BG have pretty small stomachs (compared to bass or cats) and will eat multiple times per day. IIRC some PMs here have mentioned feeding up to 4 times per day in the height of their feeding season.
Just remember not to feed more than they will clean up in 10-15 minutes. This often results in wasted feed and lower water quality.
P.S. If you could post a pic of the "smaller BG", I think we would be interested in seeing them. (Are they GG offspring ???)
Give the buglights some time, actually let me rephrase that, give the bluegills some time and they should congregate under those buglights. I have tried all of the buglights on the market, and none of them even compare to the bojo!
Also CJBS is right, the green light/bojo combination is dynamite for congregating and feeding fish throughout the night.
Give the buglights some time, actually let me rephrase that, give the bluegills some time and they should congregate under those buglights. I have tried all of the buglights on the market, and none of them even compare to the bojo!
Also CJBS is right, the green light/bojo combination is dynamite for congregating and feeding fish throughout the night.
I gave it an entire summer.
Cecil, is there anything in life that works as advertised for everyone in every situation???
...and any product made by Popiel.
Quick update - good news - fish are actively eating all crippled bugs under bug lights, fun to watch. Feeding 3 times per day and fish are eating very aggressively, appears to be both BG and CC, along with 2 snapping turtles (soon to be in crock pot, tastes like chicken). Seeing lots of LB offspring. Caught numerous BG and some appeared to have eggs (fat bellies). I have a picture of a BG I caught and one of a snapping turtle eating the fish feed. The BG are 4 to 6 inches in length. Someone previously asked to see a picture of the BG to see if it was a GG offspring. I have the BG and turle pictures on my hard drive, but don't know how to attach the files to this thread. Can someone provide me direction on how to do so? Also, my large population of bullfrogs seems to have dissappeared. Could they have moved out/migrated or did someone help themselves to some frog legs? Thanks
See the
Photo Posting thread in the Archives.
Scott, if you put a "[IMG]" right before the link, and a "[/IMG]" right after the link, they will appear in the link like above.
Try it.
Does not look like a Georgia Giant offspring
I would guess that is some type of hybrid BG. It does not look like a pure BG to me.
Stuff him with pellets for a couple months and do another photo shoot.
Stuff him with pellets for a couple months and do another photo shoot.
Walt, that's mean ......... but funny.
Just to clarify, I meant whilst the fish is back in the water.
Cecil, is there anything in life that works as advertised for everyone in every situation???
Didn't you know if it doesn't work for me it doesn't work for anyone Nate.
Just kidding of course.
I would guess that is some type of hybrid BG. It does not look like a pure BG to me.
Looks like a regular gill to me though. I don't see any light margin on the gill tab do you?
I think it looks like an incognito bluegill that works for the CIA (or possibly the GSA).
Fins look like GSF/HBG ish to me - look at the shape and length. Mouth is questionable on my pic.
Fins look like GSF/HBG ish to me - look at the shape and length. Mouth is questionable on my pic.
Makes sense to me.
On another note I have a friend that served in the Air National Guard with me that got snookered into the Georgia Giants hook line and sinker. I tried to tell him he'd been snookered but he wouldn't listen. His first shipment died on him so they sent him more.
Anyway the real hoot is I caught up with him several years later and asked him how big they were. He proudly told me they got up to 8 or 9 inches! I really had to hold back the snicker and bite my tongue at the same time. Good grief I've grow regular bluegills to slightly over 11 inches.
Georgia Giants are an excellent pond fish under the right conditions. Most on this site have always posted about GG without personal knowledge. Seperate Ken and GG. Thank you Bob Lusk for your open mind on this subject. I do not post often but when I do it is about some thing I have direct knowledge of!
Bill Duggan
What has been your experience with them, Bill? Bluegill are my main interest, so I'm very interested to hear how the GG turned out for you. My two biggest questions would be, how was the survival rate from the initial stocking, and what's the biggest one you've caught?
One more question would be, what is/was the average size when they reached their peak in your pond?
Walt My pond was two hours from the hatchery so all my GG got there in good shape. Sold my farm three years later (thank you Southern Company) Georgia Giants, one to one and a half pounds with the largest weighted under two pounds. No five pound fish as Ken says. But if I build another pond GG are going in!
CECIL DELETED HIS NEXT POST WHICH WOULD EXPLAIN MY NEXT ANSWER
Cecil, Hybrid Bream are not the same cross as Georgia Giants, Bob Lusk agrees with that. I would not put the common hybrid bream cross in my pond.
I would put HBG in a put and take pond under the right circumstances.
I would not put GG in any pond - my opinion.
ewest, other than the Ken issues, why stock HBG and not Georgia Giants
Cecil, Hybrid Bream are not the same cross as Georgia Giants, Bob Lusk agrees with that. I would not put the common hybrid bream cross in my pond.
I'm not so sure Bill although Bob would know better than I would. I was told by a biologist at another southern hatchery that when said party runs out of GG's he buys hybrids from them and sells them as GG's. So either they are the same or said party only cares about a sale.
Good try Cecil you made the same statement on this site three years ago and I called you on it as hearsay and you backed off, do you want to see the thread.
Good try Cecil you made the same statement on this site three years ago and I called you on it as hearsay and you backed off, do you want to see the thread.
Bill,
I honestly don't recall you calling me on it but this was not hearsay. I was told personally in an email. However I refuse to post the name and location of the hatchery here for obvious reasons. I could P.M. you the information if you promise not to post it here? But how do I know considering your are protective of the GG's you will not cause trouble for myself and the hatchery?
I can assure you I don't make things up. Have you ever seen me make things up here?
Cecil you might want to check with ewest on what hearsay means
Cecil, Hybrid Bream are not the same cross as Georgia Giants, Bob Lusk agrees with that. I would not put the common hybrid bream cross in my pond.
Bill,
I deleted my post to not stir up a hornets nest. Looks like I did with my next post though.
How do you know they are not the same thing? I thought it was a secret? Do you have access to proprietary information?
And I stand behind my statement. I am not a liar.
Cecil you might want to check with ewest on what hearsay means
I know what hearsay means Bill. I took a law class in college when I studied business.
I received a personal email from the biologist that was kind enough to answer questions for me from time to time. A personal email to me stating what I said in my email is not hearsay.
Ewest, You were right! Warned us way back close to the beginning of this thread.
Be cool guys.
MY thoughts. Disclaimer: I have no personal experience with GG. I also would never disbelieve Bill Duggans word or experience.
I consider Holyoke as a master salesman who has given some questionable advice on stocking numbers. Actually, IMO, they have been more than questionable. When we toss in the Hogzilla story, we both question and understand a little more about the "Biologist/Salesman".
I consider it absolutely possible that he he experimented with different Lepomis crosses and found a good combination. However, there have been too many people who have not gotten the results that he advertised. Maybe he got sloppy or just rushed to the market with less than the original combination. Lots of mixed results tell me to let the buyer beware.
For the most part an F1 Lepomis will not have the spawning numbers of the parents. If we keep going, we find even more limited reproduction and they don't always breed true. It becomes a hit and miss deal. But, that has not kept him from selling them or whatever he claimed were the secret recipe.
Like Bill says, we may need to separate the man from the fish. I'm not sure how many people got the "real" GG's and how many got common HBG's or some other combination.
As I said I only post with personal knowledge, my pond was finished late July, when I called Ken to order my GG he told me he was sold out for the season. He gave me two options, wait till the next spring or he would deliver bluegills (yes he sells other bream) the next week. I waited till the next spring.
Cecil I am sure you have an e-mail from Kens competitor in Alabama, I do not need to see it.
Bill, I certainly respect your experience, but if I recall correctly, you didn't buy in to the total Holyoke plan including free water testing, chemicals to treat your 'bad' water, dye, huge stocking numbers, smallmouth bass stocking (really just HSB), feeders & feed, etc. etc.?
If I had to guess, you were already educated as to what you wanted before you went to Holyoke?
Cecil I am sure you have an e-mail from Kens competitor in Alabama, I do not need to see it.
Bill,
Wrong state and the hatchery and is not a competitor of Ken's. In fact they are so large I think retail is a very small part of their business.
I'm going to let this go. I will respect your opinion and leave it at that. This is a great site and there is no need in kicking up animosity.
Sunil you are correct I did not follow Kens stocking advice. I agree Ken will load a pond with GG which is far greater than any stocking recommendations we see here. I will say that when I ordered 2000 for a 3.5 acre pond he did not try to push more on me. Ken is one of the most interesting people I have ever spent time with (been to his hatchery three times) but I will be the first to say he is often not customer friendly.
One thing I did is to stock coppernose bream after the GG for more forage for the bass. GG and coppernose turned out to be a great combo. I saw little or no reproduction from the GG.
As I said if you want to talk about Ken fine I can give you the good the bad and the ugly. If we want to educate our selfs on this stocking option leave Ken out of it.
I can understand your point, Bill, but how do you seperate the GGs from Ken?
Other educated forum members tried to buy some GG and got completely hosed by Ken & company. These customers didn't buy into the whole 'package' although one did go for the water test. So even as what we would call educated or experienced pond meisters, these customers got burned.
I guess what I'm asking is that if a situation presents itself where GG can work, what do you advise to the customer as to how to deal with Holyoke? For instance, if you don't subscribe to his water test and subsequent chemical treatment, then it's your fault if the fish die?
Bill , like DD1 said , I trust your opinion and Cecil's as well. Readers they are both true stand up guys and PB friends with valuable info to add here. If Bill says he had good results with GG you can trust that he did. If Cecil says he has negative info on GG then he does. We all have opinions that differ on some things. Heck on a couple of matters even Bob and I don't agree. Folks that is ok.
I thought I would answer Bill's question - " ewest, other than the Ken issues, why stock HBG and not Georgia Giants? "
It has little to do with the source and everything to do with the science. I am picky about my fish. There are many peer reviewed scientific studies/results on HBG (BG X GSF) and no outside science on GG. I know what I am getting on HBG and what results I can expect. I have no idea what I am getting with GG other than one personal horror story from a friend (I saw the fish so it is personal not hearsay). In addition I have the opinions posted on this forum like yours and others which I trust (pro and con). If I am creating a put and take fishery then I need to reduce the risk of failure thus I go with the known rather than the unknown. In addition I have one overriding rule wrt all hatcheries - I don't buy fish from people I don't trust - no matter what I hear about the fish.
hang loose I am glad some folks note the important stuff - thanks for the help in keeping things friendly.
Guys we should drop this and let each of our opinions and positions stand as stated. My friends here like Bill and Cecil ( and many others) are more important than any GG or HBG.
Sunil i can only discuss the good experiances I had dealing with Ken. if the guy hoses everyone but me how does he stay in business?
Cecil when we discussed the e-mail before i thought you said the business was from Alabama, sorry.
Ken is an issue that we will have to agree to disagree
No two ponds are alike.
No two ponds' surroundings and (micro)climates are alike.
No two sets of starting conditions are alike.
No two fish delivery routes are alike.
These are just some of the reasons why "Your Mileage May Vary", and accuracy is at increased hazard when we say "always" or "never".
Good questions, Bill. I don't have the answers.
Perhaps your order for GG was big enough that Ken didn't push you the way he does with some others.
Ken still has a business because he is a master at marketing. Also another factor would be that what he is claiming and saying is exactly what people want to hear and his information is what they are virtually starved for. When you hear about all the promises and the plan to follow, etc you are blinded to all the bad and can only see the good that you are looking for. He is essentially a politician.....
I was looking for information about ponds and fish and I found Kens info before anyone elses. I have stocked his hybrid crappie and well over 10,000 GG's and have absolutely nothing to show for it. I was even told over the phone that the fish would start moving after a few days, if they are laying on the bottom they are still alive, just acclimating, if they are floating then they are dead- And I believed it! They were the experts and I didnt know nothin.
Alot has changed since then, a definite learning experience.
I get asked questions about Georgia Giants all the time, people just want them so bad, and many people just need to learn things for themselves firsthand I guess.
Ken definitely had to have a product to get started, but quality control, integrity, and customer service just are not acceptable.
Bill glad to see your on here and sorry to be quick. You now my stance we have discussed it. When Deb was on here I agreed to try them out again. I sold them and supposed too get 10% finder fee. The fish did horrible and smaller than they were supposed to be. Nate is 100% correct he has business b/c people believe him. I was going to use my finder fee money b/c in a crunch and decided to get catfish from them. They said Deb was not supposed to authorize that so I lost my "money" $700 worth.
This does not disturb me as much as a client spending 1,000 on his water quality products to still have an unproductive environment. He continues to give fish folks a bad name. i do not talk bad about folks but except this guy. I hope his health improves and thank him for opening minds to somethingn other than state same old plan for everyone but do not run my business the way he does. He has indeed screwed many people personally know about 40 clients. He is good at reading people probably knew you were educated and woudl not pay in to his BS so he did not try to oversell you. I have seen 15,000 GGsold to ).5 acre pond before. He continues to move to new ground to repeat the story that is how he is still in business Bill.
Greg I know your history with Ken. But I have to keep asking the same question. Twenty years in business in the same location, sells millons of fish, most are delivered dead (according to posters) only a hand full of happy customers and still his business grows. There are not that many pond owners. Greg becides me do you know one customer of Kens who are happy with their transaction. Gave your name to my buddy Tom outside of Helen for his subdivision pond did you shock it?
Everyone has now had their say. Thanks for your participation. The thread is locked until Nate or Scott indicate they want to post more about Scott's pond.
Unlocked at Scott's request.
Mainly wanted to provide an update. I spent the weekend at the farm and did some fishing. I have been feeding 3 times a day all summer and the fish are still very aggresive on the feed. I have been feeding heavy as it takes them 30 minutes to clean it up, but they continue to follow it until it is all gone. We have caught 3 snapping turtles by the feeder and they are well on the way to becoming turtle soup.
Caught BG, LB, CC and GG. I caught 5 GG that were probably 12 ounces and 8.5 inches in length and very thick. These fish had a distinct orange color to their bottom fins.
The CC were 10 to 15 inches in length and appeared healthy.
The LB were 10 to 14 inches in length and appeared healthy. Also caught one 6 inches in length.
The BG were all sizes, from 3 inches up to 8 inches with the larger ones being very fat and healthy looking.
I observed spawning beds around most of the lake and baby LB and BG or GG aroung the edges in the cover. The fish are eating the bugs under all 3 bug lights at night. The lake elevation is close to what it is in spring, no more than 1 foot lower. The water now looks more clear than it ever has in the past, as I was able to see the spawning beds and offspring swimming in the shallows.
I took photos (with cell phone) of the fish next to a length measuring device and hit the save button every time and then hurriedly released the fish back into the water. I didn't take the time to make sure it was actually saving them to my phone. Well at home last night, I discovered my PIX memory was full and I didn't get any of the photos I took. I am disappointed as I wanted to record their progress and post the pictures here for you guys to comment on. Hopefully in the next week or two I will try again and share the photos with you all. I also caught some fish that didn't appear to be straight BG as they were more slender top to bottom with a larger mouth, fatter front half and also the orange fins on the bottom similar to the GG. Is this a cross between GG and BG? Sorry, but I don't understand fish like most of you guys.
I am happy with the progress and where I am at now compared to where I was in the spring. Again, I hope to have pictures to share in a few weeks. I will obtain fish photos and also photos of the lake. Any suggestions on if I should be doing something different?
Thanx.
Thanks for the update Scott! Glad to hear your on a good path and happy with the progress.
That sounds encouraging. Please post pics and updates when you can.
Caught BG, LB, CC and GG. I caught 5 GG that were probably 12 ounces and 8.5 inches in length and very thick. These fish had a distinct orange color to their bottom fins.
The CC were 10 to 15 inches in length and appeared healthy.
The LB were 10 to 14 inches in length and appeared healthy. Also caught one 6 inches in length.
The BG were all sizes, from 3 inches up to 8 inches with the larger ones being very fat and healthy looking.
That all sounds good. When you can start keeping length and weight records so you can start calculating relative weights.
Sounds like everything is going quite well!
Sounds like you are on the right track. What to different? Post the pics quicker!
Sorry esshup - I know you guys can't comment much without pictures. I intend to do a better job with pictures, lengths and weights. Sometimes when I was younger, my dad told me I must not have been in line the day God handed out brains. Thankfully, he hasn't told me that in awhile.
I want to purchase a fish scale that would measure in ounces and max out at 10 pounds or so. A hanging type with spring would seem to be most convenient and mobile, rather than a stationary or digital type. However, the spring type may not have near the accuracy. Can anyone offer suggestions as I would suspect you all have been thru this - thanks.
Lots of folks here use Boga-Grip scales, not very pocketable be very accurate.
I use a Cabelas digital scale, not sure of the accuracy but it is smaller and light.
if running relative weights I will be a salesman, try this package out. We have done our research bought in volume and passed on the savings.
http://lakework.com/cart/index.php?p=product&id=112&parent=12
Photo quality not good, but can anyone identify? Better pictures with lengths/weights in near future.
Looks like some type of hybrid bluegill. Don't know whether it's a regular HBG or a GG, as I haven't caught any of the latter.
That scale won't weigh a twelve-pound bluegill.
walt you got me it will not.
Other than that though it looks like a good scale. With that one limitation, of course.
Yeah, not much sense trying to sell them in Texas.
Dave - what's that - sell a 12 lb BG - we sell them that size here all the time but the buyers like them a little bigger than TX size.
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Well, we try to use those littl'uns for bait. We just throw the average sized ones back.
I suppose one could fillet the twelve-pound bluegill first and then weigh the fillets.
Walt, you just gotta understand. In Texas, sunfish are either used as bait for big fish or to pull skiers.
I'm thinking of renting my bluegill out to pull barges up the Mississippi.
I didn't say only one. It would take at least two or three.
Well why didn't you say it would take a team? One from Texas ought to pull like a tug boat messing with a battleship.
I also have to figure out how to make a harness big enough to fit them. And, I have to figure out how to make them wear it; the big ones are pretty mean.
Yeah, we had harness problems too so I gave up on them pulling a load. You're going about it the wrong way. I recruited my 10 year old Grandson. I figured it was about time he got into Bronc Stompin. I penned a couple of them and he climbed up on the Hurricane Deck, grabbed one by the opercular flaps and we opened the gate. When they tried to get narrow minded, he raked their guts with some small rowels. In no time at all, he had them pretty well trained to push.
The biggest problem we faced was when they started sunfishing, they would try to turn and bite. Had to pull their front teeth and start feeding them on some kind of runty fishes like yellow perch and brown trout. At first, their gums were kinda tender but we applied copious amounts of native BS and they healed up just fine.
... we applied copious amounts of native BS ...
You obviously have no shortage of that, DD.
I think there's some exaggeration in this account.
The part about pulling their front teeth. Bluegill don't have teeth.
Doesn't that constitute bluegill abuse? Some sort of authorities should be notified. The Anti-Bluegill Abuse League?
You're mixing that up with the GSF Anti Defamation League.
Oh, right, sorry. Had my sunfish advocacy groups confused. Hate it when that happens.
I wonder if that could be a cross between the GGxBG?
Do you happen to have any more updates for us, it has been a while.
Thanks
