Well I started taking a bunch of fish out of my 4 acre pond and have been keeping a log. In the past 2 nice fishing days we've taken out 118 bass and 4 crappie.

Here's the basic stats.

10% less than 10"
10% greater than 14"
80% between 10-14"

1 16.5" fish looked very poor, possibly sick or some problem.

Relative Weights (MARCH) Average = 85% over the entire pop. I don't see any real trends between the lengths and Wr's. The Relative weight average goes for the entire span of lengths. With that being said I do have some 100%+ relative weights but maybe 10% of the population. Now it is early march fishing so wouldn't I expect the bass to loose weight after spawning season?

I will be investigating the crappie population more to see what the numbers are but this lake appears to be full of 10-14 inch bass.

Whats weird is in the past 10 years of fishing this pond I never catch any fish 16" or bigger. Its like they don't exist. The pond is 30 years old and has seen no real management in any of those years except for one. Two years ago we took out 200 fish but still no change in any sizes.

My forage base is probably just fair with all sizes present but just fair in numbers.

Still no 16" fish! Could they be stunted or over 30 years the genetics has just went to nothing?

Chad,
It sounds like a typical stunted bass pond. Genetics isn't helping you after 30 years, but I'd cull more LMB and stock mature BG before introducing any more LMB genetics.

I'm in the same boat as you (pun intended) with a pond I'm trying to manage at my mother's place. I can't get out there very often to monitor the results.

Definitely you classic stunted bass pond. Keep culling bass, and add more BG and other forage fish species if you wish.

With that kind of agressive culling, you will start to see improvements. I'd keep at it to get to the 30-50lbs. per acre of LMB removed.

Well right now im up to about 106 lbs or a little over 25lbs per acre.

Yeah I guess they are stunted also. I just remember when we took out a bunch of fish about 2 years ago. It didn't seem to help really.

Stay the course.

Perhaps the last efforts from two years back didn't remove enough LMB, and perhaps there is a need to concurrently bolster the forage base like what davatsa says about adding mature bluefill.

Also, do you feed your bluegill? This may help their overall health and ability to spawn stronger and longer!

when i think about it, its hard for me to believe that we really took out 200 fish two years ago. I bet it was more like 100, you know how stories tend to grow.

Anyways, yeah im working on adding structure, forage, fertilization, and feeding this year.

I was just a little concerned at their size. This pond sure does need a lot of attention.

Yeah, but it's a labor of love right?

oh yeah its fun, just not used to taking out this many bass just to get them in balance again.

I think its gonna work out and doing it as intensive as we're doing hopefully they will start putting on weight a little faster than normal.

try throwing some tilapia in there to ease the pressure on the BG and allow them to re-establish their numbers and size? And keep culling

One thought from me:
Dont worry one iota about removing too many largemouth bass. Most people in your situation have a fear of removing too many bass and messing up their fishery! They always end up not taking out enough, and never get anywhere.

After 30 years of being overcrowded, I would hammer those bass until it gets difficult to catch one! Then you could introduce a handful of larger sized bass of good genetics and really start something special!

Oh im not worried about taking fish out. I laugh everytime one goes in the basket.

Any yeah i have plan setup for this year. 1000 adult CNBG, 40 lbs tilapia, fertilize and feed, and some tiger and florida bass in the fall or early next year.

Just wanted to give an update and thought i'd bring up this post instead of posting a new one.

As of today the total harvest from my 4 acre pond is...

226 bass = 48 lbs per acre!!!
20 crappie

Also i have decided and been advised etc, to not fertilize do to the present coontail/pondweed which is maybe just a little to much to take the risk. thats a downer... However, I put in 14 carp early this spring and decided that instead of spraying I should probably see what the carp can do so I'll have a better understanding on preparing the lake for fertilizing next year.

Anyways, the weather has been crazy for the past few weeks, 40 one night then 80 the next day, not to mention very windy. So I can't really catch a perfect day to fish and see if my harvest so far is making any dent on the population. However I am not going to stop taking out fish by all means!

One thing im pretty nervous about though is the CRAPPIE. I don't know what to think really. I caught five today on a beetle-spin. They are definitly present and I don't have any idea what to expect next year now that I've taken all these bass out. I haven't really just set out fishing for them only. They seem to like that beetle-spin though.

What do you guys think?

I don't know what most people see as far as harvest rates and lbs per acre. I'm pretty confident I can hit 300 bass fish bringing me up to 65 lbs per acre on average. Anyone ever seen numbers like this when trying to correct a pond? This might be just another pond for pond managers but it seems like a big number to me.

What are the size of the crappies you are catching?

they are all around 10". largest being a 1.1 lb 12"

Has the CPU (catch per unit effort = time needed to catch the same # of fish) gone down? If so how much ? If yes then start adding large ( > 4 inches)BG and keep every crappie you catch. The numbers of fish ( 10 lbs , or 50 lbs) per acre depends on the ponds fertility/productivity. If you keep adding BG (up to the right amount) and feed them in conjunction with removing LMB and crappie you can balance the population.

Ewest, I wish I could tell you exactly. The weather has been so crazy here in Texas the last few weeks its hard to tell if its our catch efforts or just the weather.

CPU, actually wouldn't you say it goes Up instead of down if the fishing slows. I would Guess the CPU has gone up by 300%. It now probably would take 3hrs to catch 25 fish vs. 1 hr a month ago. In fact I probably couldn't catch the same amount of fish no matter the length of time that I used to. This is trying to take into consideration the violent weather here lately though.

I will be adding 1000 3-6" CNBG on May 1 and 40 lbs tilapia.

I'll be adding probably 50 10+" Florida and F1 bass in late winter or early spring next year for a genetics upgrade.

The above bass addition makes it a little more diffucult to figure how many bass to cull out, I definitly need ample room for these guys coming in.

Any ideas on how I should figure this?

Catch Per Unit Of Effort: CPUE or CPU The catch of fish, in numbers or in weight, taken by a defined unit of fishing effort. Also called: catch per effort, fishing success, availability .

If you catch 10 fish in the first hour and 5 in the next hour the CPU has decreased by 50%.

I would keep using the beetle spin and take out the crappie. That will also let you see if you catch any LMB.

by the way, im taking out everything under 16" for now. That consist of about 98% of what I catch. Normally fish caught are between 8" and 14" mostly.

Regardless of fixing my current problem, in the long run, shouldn't I always take out all fish in the 8-14" size range?

What lures are you catching your bass on chad? I have a 4.5 acre pond that is about 20 years old and is in the same situation as yours. You should have some good sized bluegill in there. I know I do. Reason I ask is that I am trying to cull heavy on the bass like you are, but they are getting tougher to catch on my usual go to technique (weightless zoom trick worm), and due to all the bladderwort in my pond, spinnerbait fishing is frustrating as all get out.

Well, of all the expensive lures and stuff thats out, probably 75% of the bass were caught on a Beetle-spin with a yellow grub.

The others were caught on a lure called a Storm "Kickin Minnow" that is clear in color almost, 4" gulp minnows, and some small spinnerbaits.

The key with this pond was keeping the baits smaller in size.

One thing we have noticed clearly though is they did not and still don't want to bite a Worm or any kind of worm fishing whether it be lizards, crawfish, fire-tails or what. They want bite'em.

How many fish have you taken out?

We bought the property with pond in November of 2007. I would guess over a 100 bass. I started keeping good records this year with an Excel spreadsheet.

Have you tried a Zoom trick worm rigged weightless? My stunted skinny bass seem to like them, you might be surprised. I use watermelon red.

One big problem I have is water lilies and bladderwort. Supposed to have a chemical treatment sometime this month...can't wait!

I can't fish shallow water due to the bladderwort and water lilies, which makes catching a lot of bass tough.

Go to some live bait fishing when you want to cull hard.

Yup... You aint in it for the sport, you're doing to it to manage your pond.

We usually keep some shiners in a container we keep tied up to the pier. I can't tell you how many times I've sat there with a live shiner on the end of my line and had the shiner die (which takes a while) and not catch a fish.

Ya might try catchin a 2-4" BG or crappy, trimming half the tail, one side fin and scrape a line or two of scales off like it has already been chewed on. I used to catch alot of LMB that way.

I also spray YUM Crawfish flavor on the shiners and fatheads I fish with.

Just make sure you are up-wind when appying the spray!

How does everyone feel about the 48 lbs per acre that I've taken out? Im thinking when I reach 235 fish i will have reached the 50 lbs per acre. Then If I continue to reach 300 fish taken out this year that I will have made room for adding my Florida bass and still be above 50 lbs per acre removed even when the Floridas are added back in this winter.

Im more or less wondering when I should stop keeping fish this year?

Has anyone taken out or seen someone harvest this many fish per acre?

I've never culled that hard, but if the situation calls for it, what else can you do?

I would let the results dictate when you should stop culling.

If you can start tracking Relative Weight on the LMB, that should indicate when things start improving, and you can decide whether or not to keep culling.

At that time, you may want to do a slot-limit type of cull.

I am tracking Wr but doesn't it take a year to see if I made any real difference do to normal fluctuations in weight through this growing season?

I have never done this before but just figured if I can have a net of 50lbs per acre taken out in 2009 and thats including the addition of say 50 Floridas this winter then that might be a decent guess....

I don't know the answer to your question regarding Wr fluctuations throughout the year, but my guess is that the yearly Wr would have an envelope of movement to account for pre-spawn, spawn, and winter-bulking-up. So to that degree, yes, it may take a year to be able to compare deltas above and beyond an envelope of weight variation.

However, I think you would start to see general improvements in the LMBs in a few months providing you have enough forage base.

yes, it will take a while before the results show up.

I think this project is really great and have been tracking it. To your question of how much is too much, I've got a question about the remaining bass. I'm guessing you've got a really good feeling for what's going on in the pond by now.

If you could tell, what would be the average fish remaining (when you stop). Size and average age?

From everything you've said I'd lean towards removing more bass rather than less since the new stocked bass + next years spawn are going to be the target fish to grow big and healthy. You're doing great things with the forage, and I'd want that going into good potential fish not stunted fish.

I'd be worried that you'd be left with a bunch of 4-5+ year old 12-14" fish. They'll start growing when the get more forage, but ultimately they're not going to be great fish as they age. I'd rather get the biomass of older stunted fish out of the pond and move forward with the new stockers plus the next spawn which could get to the same size with proper forage in 12 months.

If you're going to stock adult Florida's and build up your forage I don't think you can over cull very easily, and if you did the consequences aren't exactly bad (stronger forage base, reduced pressure, and faster growing bass). In 12 months you'd be sitting in a good spot.

also, have you started adjusting the forage yet, or is that coming?

AaronM, I'd say the remaining fish are still in the same size range that im catching. Out of 226 we have only released 6 fish. One 20" 5 lbs, and five fish in the 2.5 lb range. I don't really have any ideas on age of the fish though...

But, yes, the remaining fish are gonna be 10-14", I'd probably say that very confidently. Average weight across the board of the 226 is .855 lbs which is pretty much what im seeing. Of course the 10" are less and the 14" are about 1.3 lbs etc.

I guess i'll shoot for 300 fish out and see how they bite after that. I have knocked a big dent in the population but they are still farily catchable so I guess i'll proceed.

On the Forage, I talked to Todd Overton and in my area he is saying to wait for the spawning water temps to stabilize. The temp is pretty close to the same for Tilapia and CNBG and in my area it usually hits around May 1. Makes good sence to me to put them in at that time. So May 1 = 1000 CNBG and 40 lbs Tilapia. Also I'll have 2 feeders running at that time.

I would have liked to Fertilize but am going to wait till next year when I have my vegetation more controlled. Probably a good idea.


One thing I'm wondering is, I have caught 20 crappie while bass fishing with beetlespins. If there are a bunch of them in there which I bet there are, maybe they are whats supporting this huge population of 10-14" bass.

I talked to Greg Grimes and he had said he has never seen a harvest per acre thats been this large and still growing.

I wouldn't worry about taking out too many bass, keep taking them out. I really think it will pay off greatly for you...

In the spring, the crappie always school up, so you can really put a dent in their numbers during this time period.

Maybe the beetle-spin gave you a consistent depth to fish at.

I talked to Todd Overton today who is down in my part of the country and he said he tries to get people to take out 30 lbs per acre generally to correct a problem like mine but said not many of them can even do that or just don't make the effort.

I just know that I could probably reach 60lbs which is double Todd's standard number. Seems interesting to me that I could have that many on a pond that is not fertilized or hasn't been messed with for 20 years.

I have sent Chad a few Pms b/c dang blkbry would not let me respond (anyone knwo how to activate javascript?). I trust Todd and agree most do not do what they are told by biologist. Getting an age is worth its weight in gold. It clicks with clients that unless they take the time to remove what is rec. they may just take enough to equal natural recurtment. Once they see a 14 inch bass is 6 years old they put the hammer down. We can age a few of the bass for fair price if you get us otolith or frozen head. It take Matt about 20 mins per fish to break, grind put on slide. THis method is best there is for accuracy. I actual suggest sacrficing a larger fish so you can see ages of the bass you plan to leave in the pond.

Adding this here as well.

One approach is to monitor CPUE. Has the CPUE (catch per unit effort = time needed to catch the same # of fish) gone down? If so how much ? The numbers of fish ( 10 lbs to 50 lbs) per acre depends on the ponds fertility/productivity. If it starts getting more difficult to catch lots of 10-12 inch LMB then cut back on removing them like you have.

Another approach is to watch for improvement in Wr (relative weight). Have you been keeping that type of info?

A third method is to do a seine survey as per Swingle to see if you have lots of 3 in BG, along with yoy BG and LMB. If those #s are right it means you are approaching balance.

All 3 plus visual and creel info should be enough to give a solid answer. Based on your comments I think you may be closer than you think to balance.

In a very clear pond you may only have 25-30 lbs of LMB per acre. If so you can't take out more than that. In a very fertile pond you could have 125 Lbs of LMB per acre. So it depends. No clear cut rule of LMB lbs per acre can be given without lots of good data.