I've been posting over in dam building, but this question, I thought, might be better placed over here in soils.
I need to get some grass established and quickly.
The back of the dam is pretty steep, as are some of the banks.
I'm trying to get wheat inside the pond, below the water level, and a mixture of wheat and fescue everywhere above the water level.
The guy (neighbor) who's in the fertilizer business was going to help me put down the seed.
He looked at the pond late yesterday, and said, "how do you expect anything to grow on the clay, rock exposed soil. There's no topsoil."
Heck, I don't know, I was hoping he could answer that one.
Any suggestions? Besides hauling in topsoil..
Thanks
Jeff

I think I'm going to buy some matts. $67 for a 4' x 100 yard roll. I could probably use 10 rolls though. Whew..

I as able to get grass started on clay by seeding, then covering with straw,and then watering perpetually.

If you can find a truckload of composted material, it will help tremendously. But before you do, test your soil. An inexpensive soil test kit for gardens will be fine.

In rocky and hard compacted clay, it will be important to determine the pH so you can decide if it is too alkaline or too acidic. Make adjustments, respectively, with something like lime or sulfur. Put down about an inch of good organic material like compost. This time of year, seed it with winter (cereal) rye. Cover it with straw and keep it damp until it gets a good start. It won't die out over the winter. Come springtime, cut it down and overseed with a good grass seed mixture for your area. Keep it damp and keep it fertilized through early summer.

Thast should get you well on your way.

Regards,
Ken

I ended up without topsoil also. I'm on my 3rd summer of liming, fertilizing, seeding, and strawing and it finally is looking good. Every spring the new seed would sprout and begin to grow, but without regular watering, would eventually die out. This past winter/spring/summer we've gotten plenty of rain. Rigging up a system to pump water from the pond to water the grass probably would have saved alot of time.

The watering part is what is going to get me. I don't have water running out to the pond, or electricity. Plus, I'm not there all that often. I'm guessing it'll be a long process to get grass to fill in. I just don't see a quick fix here. I can certainly get a gas powered pump, or maybe something that can run off the PTO from my tractor?? So I can water from the pond every week or two.
Thanks

Unfortunately, getting grass established on clay is a challenge. It seems like the way it works for me is I try and fail at least once, then eventually weeds and wild seasonal grass somehow gets started, then once this wild stuff is mowed down or dies down, then I can overseed the grass and get a stand on about everything. Up to that point it is hit and miss with some spots establishing and others not. Of course I don't water or cover with straw or hay, both of which will increase chances of success.

I've even had a fair amount of trouble where we put topsoil back on, limed and fertilized. Some spots still didn't "take". Perennial grass seed is just very tiny seed without much energy in that seed to help get the plant established. Roots are weak and plants are fragile to begin with. Once established the root system is very tough, but not in the beginning. Add to that the poor growing environment of solid clay, and establishment becomes a challenge.

Not what you wanted to hear, I know.

I have a 2" semi-trash pump from TSC. It is pure Chinese made, but has served me well for the last three seasons. I mostly use it for watering the garden from the main pond. When I built another pond several years ago, I too had to keep the top of the dam wet. The trash pump was hooked to two large sprinklers, and it worked great for getting the grass growing.
Ken

There a few tricks to getting grass seed to take.

Get a soil test done and fertilize/lime according to the soil test results. After the fertilizer is watered in or rained in;
1) Don't plant grass seeds more than 1/4" deep. 1/8" is even better.
2) Get good ground to seed contact. After seeding roll with a lawn roller or cultepacker.
3) Get the seeds covered with straw or erosion blankets because of #4.
4) Every time the grass seed dries out, you lose 50% of the seeds.
5) While getting the grass germinated and established, frequent short waterings every day is much better than a soaking once a week. (that goes back to #4)

I just spent all day overseeding around a clients ponds where the grass was thin. I fertilized around the ponds last week, then they had 3" of rain. We're supposed to get rain in a few days. With the sun at a lower angle in the sky, and the cool nights with dew on the ground, that helps take the place of watering. It's not a complete substitute, but it helps. The ground isn't drying out now either, so that helps get the grass germinated too.

I've had a soil test done. Tilled in the fertilizer per A&M instructions. I even tried putting out some sod this year. The Bermuda sod took in a few places but not much. I don't want to be discouraging but I have had absolutely no luck. I even built a pvc sprinkler system to water on the weekends. I wanted the grass for aesthetics but mainly to try to help clean up the muddy water. I can't leave anything undone so I'll just keep plugging away. I do think a compost mixture or topsoil with something on top to keep it moist as the others here suggested is the way to go. I'll have to try that in the spring I guess. Definitely start with a soil test.

As has been said here, the key for me was to keep the ground wet after seeding. And my soil has so much clay I can make pottery out of it.

Thanks guys, for all the suggestions. I got seed spread everywhere last night, I'm dumping ten bales of straw on it this morning. At least get the dam, spillways, and waterline (proposed) covered in straw.
Then I'll hope for the best. I can't water up here, especially anywhere near daily.. Every other week at best.
I have a feeling I'll be doing this more than once.

I really love my clover. I sowed a mix of fescue and ladino clover and got excellent coverage. It is more pronounced in the spring and fall and grows where the grass won't. It also adds organic matter and a lot of nitrogen. The only drawback is it won't take the traffic the grass does. It also feeds the bees and butterflies and is a magnet for deer in late fall.

My experience mirrors Scott's above - I reseeded significant areas front and backside of dams on 3 ponds following construction and had zero topsoil and no irrigation option at the time. Erosion mat helped keep moisture on the seedlings and my wheat and fescue performed well. Unless you can water frequently, erosion mat is worth the cost to install.

That will make a great food plot for deer this fall

Well, I'm not going to be able to get compost hauled in. It's a great suggestion, but not something I can get done due to the location of the pond. I'm not sure how I'm going to get gravel and rock back in to it.

I really like the clover idea. I'm pretty sure I'll have to reseed this more than a few times. Unless I luck out and get nice gentle rains every other day. Ha!
Took a couple of pics late yesterday.

This one has my 14 yr old bird dog resting up from following me around in circles for three hours while I spread hay.. Ha


10 bales was "maybe" a third of what I needed. I hate being so inexperienced at everything.

SG, maybe Highflyer will see this and offer some help. I know he built a solar watering rig, but I haven't personally seen it.

Beautiful pond BTW.

Al, as soon as I read the first sentence I thought you were talking about seeding and haying around the pond....

Setterguy:
The pond looks good! How much water is in it now?? I'll bet you're going to need to talk to Rex (Rainman) about doing an alum treatment for your pond. It looks pretty turbid from the clay.

Got the Fatheads in there yet??

Brian better not be here on PB anyway. He'd better on the big plane bringing my iPhone Plus from China.

What number are they up to on the iphone? I'm still using a 4S, and it was just last week that I finally figured out how to make the screen brighter. Still don't know what that "voice control" is that rears its head every time I have it in my pocket and bend over for some reason.

I'm not exactly marching on the frontlines of technological savviness.

the iPhone 6 release date set for September 19 -- today .. lines at Apple stores.. yawn

Tony this one's the 6. Having the phone talk to me isn't a problem, but pocket calling somebody certainly can be.

I used Blackberry's for years, and the old ones with the wheel on the side might have been the best phones I ever had. Most of the new phones are mini computers with the ability to talk. It used to be the other way around, and I'm not sure that wasn't far better.

Al, I just hate it when my phone starts talking without any deliberate intervention on my part. I don't know if it's trying to advise me of an important weather announcement, or attempting to relay information to a hostile foreign government. I have to extricate myself from whatever horrid position I've managed to wedge into in order to start that last, awkward to reach bolt, only to find out my iphone is blabbering on about face time with some guy named Condello.

I think Yolk Sac must've installed some malignant software while my back was turned at Nate's place.

Tony, that may have just been you hearing me scream. I just got back from getting the tractor out of the brood pond. Twice.

Now, I think next year I'm going to try an aerator on areas I seed. The clay should hold water, so I'm assuming the holes will keep the seeds wetter longer if they're raked into the holes, and help to prevent them from washing away. Rye or Millet should sprout in a day or two if they get a longer initial soak. It's at least worth a shot, because all it will cost is a one day tool rental fee.

PM me and I'll tell you about solar watering. It is easy, but it is some work. But I did get grass established. If you look at my older posts, its all in there.

A SOIL aerator! I've been trying to figure out how a membrane diffuser sitting on bare clay would provide any type of boost towards grass growth...I must be tired.

Glad you got the tractor out. Any casualties to man, machine, or macrochirus?

Al, if it's worth doing once, it's worth doing twice!! With practice, you're getting better at extracting it.

They make an overseeder planter for grass. The one that I used the other day has 3 drums with 1 1/2" or so 3/8" dia solid spikes on it. They poke holes in the ground thru the grass that is already growing, and the grass seed falls onto an angled plate, whick then directs it to fall on top of the first drum, which spreads it evenly across the ground. It goes on the 3-point behind the tractor. I overseeded at the rate of 100# per acre.

Tony everybody and everything survived, but I'll try not to do that again. Twice. I was filling a washout below a watershed drainpipe and the Kubota paddle shifter decided we would go forward instead of backwards. Twice.


Scott, that's exactly what I was wanting to do. I should have known there were commercial sized tools to do what I wanted. It just seems like everybody fights the same watering/evaporation problem when getting turf started. Holding more of the water you can put out, and keeping the seed wet longer, seems like a better way. I'll find out this next Spring.

The clay is starting to settle a bit, but I suspect I'll need the aluminum treatment.
No minnows yet. Hopefully in the next week or two. Do I need to get a feeder going for fatheads?
Still at 5'+. No additional rain, but. maybe some today. Great, the straw isn't done.
The good news it, it's only dropped about a half inch in the last week or so.

I'm going to try and look this up. Hoping the wheat comes up pretty quickly.
Thx

HAY SPREAD IT OUT AND IF ITS REALLY STEEP LIGHTLU DISK IT IN , I HAVE DONE A LOT OF AREAS KIH]KE THIS, IT WILL HOLD THE MOISTURE IT ,

Quote: Do I need to get a feeder going for fatheads?

There are different opinions here on PBF about feed benefiting FHM and the smaller fish. I would guess it depends a lot on how much natural food there currently is in the pond for them. If your pond is really new without much chance for natural foods to have been established I would guess it would be beneficial. But I'm no expert.

I fed my FHM and fingerling BG, and I can tell you from experience, they will definitely eat the food well. It might take them a while to get started, but FHM are little eating machines. They are not long of this world, so they have to use every chance they can get to eat and reproduce.

I just hand fed mine. You might try that if you don't want to set up a feeder yet and if you are around the pond regularly.

setterguy, you could feed, but it's not required. I wouldn't worry about it until the pond is full, you know it's holding water (although you could always use it as a deer feeder! ) and you're stocking the fingerlings.

I'll probably buy some fish chow, and throw it in when I'm up there.
Hopefully that won't do more harm than good.
It's bow season now, so I think I'll be up there pretty often.
Won't be real consistent though.

I'd suggest feeding some Aquamax 5D01 fry crumble, or 5D02 (Purina's smallest pellet) if you put in a feeder. If you decide to treat with Alum, you'll quickly get a good growth on phytoplankton and macrophytes established from the good light penetration and freshly released nutrients from the dirt work.

You can expect a considerable amount of FA too in your first year or two. It will be a benefit in growing your young fish stock!

Just stuck waiting for it to fill, but filling it will only add more clay, unless I get rain to get the wheat to kick in.. Rain will bring in more clay. It's a catch 22.
Ha, I will get some chow. Throw in a cedar tree or two for cover. I'm laying matts down on all the higher water flow areas coming into the pond, and putting down straw on the rest. If, and when it gets full, I will probably need to do the aluminum. Doing it before it's full, seems like a waste. Am I correct on that? It's not a quarter full yet.
It looks like it's going to fill, and hold water, but I'm not 100% sure of that. Whew...

45 bales of straw, and it could have used more. Four 8' x 100+' of erosion control mats, 100s of pounds of fescue and wheat seed.. I'm finally ready for a bit more rain.
I should have rented some kind of straw spreading blower, or something. Doing it by hand was a long hard process.
Some of the wheat is already starting to come up. Should I let the wheat get to full height, and not mow it where I have the fescue mixed in? Won't it shade the fescue too much?
I'm sure I'm overthinking this again. Ha
Edit, so far, in the last two weeks, the water level has dropped about 1.5". Seem normal??

Looks really good, setter!! Yes, I'd say a 1.5" drop is very normal. Soils surrounding the pond are getting saturated, and you will have a good amount of water wicking into the soils above the pond.

I'm assuming it is winter wheat, and mowing it so it will not get so big it joints might even help keep it from winter killing. If the wheat gets big enough it "joints" freezing weather will kill it. I've raised a lot of wheat for the last 40+ years but can't say I've had much experience mowing it, but I don't think it would hurt anything, just don't get carried away. Let it get some size before you do (six or eight inches) and mow it 4" high. Don't mow it at a half inch like a golf course or you probably will kill it. Keep in mind, winter wheat is often used for winter grazing of cattle, then the cattle are taken off and still raise a wheat crop. So judicious mowing should not hurt it.

Winter wheat will go dormant at freeze up and green up early next spring. One of the first things to green up. You can mow it then too, and that will keep it from going into reproductive stage (stem with a wheat head on it) and actually make it last longer staying green further into the summer. When hot weather gets here, it will eventually die off, as it is an annual.

The wheat will repress the fescue somewhat. You will think you have no fescue, because the stuff is tiny and at least at my age, I have to get on my hands and knees to even see the tiny, thin bladed stuff when it comes up. But it will likely be there, and when the wheat dies off, will finally start growing more. In the mean time, the wheat will at first support a good root system to help hold the soil in place, and later provide mulch to keep rain drops from displacing soil to get erosion started.

Thanks. Hoping by spring, it'll be full, and still holding steady..

Thank you. Lots of good info. If it keeps the soil in place now, and provides a little mulch for the fescue to get started, I'll be a happy camper.
I never did get any lime down. So, it's just seed and straw on clay. The wheat looks like it's going to come up, not sure about the fescue.

Take a sample of the soil and get it tested. That will give you a starting reference for future liming.

I am getting a bit more optimistic. Some of the wheat and fescue is coming up, along with the water level. Just 4' more to go.


The water is coming in so much more clear. It'll still need aluminum treatment in the spring, I would imagine.
Must be 13' deep in spots. (& holding..)

Those pictures are a HUGE change from the end of July!! Congrats!

Good job! Looks great.

Thanks. You all know what a job something like this is.. Whew..

Piece 'o cake!!

Question guys..
You can see from my October pics, that the grass and wheat came up last fall.
I'm thinking of dumping a bit more seed down.
The question is; will I do something awful to the water if I also throw down some fertilizer on the new grass and seed? I was going to put down lime also.
Im not talking about a lot of fertilizer, but maybe a light broadcast of some starter type for lawns.
I just figure the stronger I can get this new grass, the better it's going to hold up in filtering the incoming water and stabilizing the banks.
I suspect when the guys farming the two alfalfa fields spray fertilizer this spring, some of that will end up in the pond also.
I'm getting ready to put in fish, I don't want to mess up the water..
Thanks,
Jeff

Your pond, grass, etc. is coming along nicely.

Setterguy, You should have plenty of residual Alum in the water to handle a considerable amount of fertilizer Phosphates. Absent a soil assay determining an exact application to target pH goal, Ag lime at about 3-5 ton per acre would definitely help everything water water terrestrial....

More seed would be a big plus, and add some in the soon-to-be-flooded pool area.

Even IF you get some FA growth this spring and summer, it is going to aid in growing your fingerlings we'll be stocking soon by providing oxygen and habitat for forage foods.

Consider using a low P or zero P fertilizer...

Thank you! I will get it done sometime in the next few weeks. (Right before the fish go in.) I just didn't want to do anything to damage the water quality, and harm fish.

In the long run a good turf around the water will pay off. the better the grass is established the less erosion.

I'll be re-seeding, putting down lime, and fertilizing this wknd..
I'm sure the ice will be gone, but all the rain that's come thru in the last week, all of it "missed" my farm..

There is a product called--EROSION MATS--

Let me try that again the mats are 8 feet wide and will cover about a 100 feet it has to be staked down. The roll is sold with the staples, They will guarantee the grass will grow and will prevent erosion. Cost about 30.00 dollars

Thanks Mike, I used four big rolls initially, and they worked well. I've just got some weak spots and overall the new grass and wheat seem weak. It barely got started last fall, and is on solid clay covered by straw or mats. I just want to help it along, but I'm concerned with fertilizing around the pond, and what the subsequent washing of the fertilizer into the water will do. Rex is bringing in fish (GS, RES, YP, and SMB) in a few weeks. I put in FHM last summer. I don't know.. Does fertilizer getting into the water present a problem? If not, I'll quit worrying.
Thanks again.

Talk to Rex and see what he thinks. Bill Cody will sure know if you need to worry about that

Just burned one of my prairies on red clay. Beautiful day for a burn with my daughter home from college, friends, and neighbors. Its all about understanding your soil, proper planning, patience, and a lot of work. Life is good!

RAH, that's one of my favorite things to do. When it's safe to do of course.

SetterGuy, I fertilize the dam every year, and stick with a balanced low number fertilizer. Something like a cheap 10-10-10 mix. I apply it at half the recommended rate, and have never had any pond issues. I also concentrate on the upper half of the dam, because a certain amount will leach down with rain and watering.

Haven't had time to read entire thread but I had same problem. I threw down a clover/fescue mix and topped with straw. Didn't have watering problem. I then plugged Zoysia in the mix and it spreading like wild fire. Can't wait till it takes over. We have a seed company locally and will give you cull seed for next to nothing. Did not know this at my building time. A friend put around his pond so thick it practically mulched itself. Mainly weeds but got the problem solved. Those weeds really liked the clay.

Thanks guys. I'm going to go ahead and fertilize with as light a fertilizer as I can find, and put it down lightly. I paid $$ last year for the alum treatment, to get the clay settled, and I don't want any more washing in there.
Looks like by the time I get back up there Sat, we will have had a inch of rain or so. I'm hoping there was some runoff. I'll see how clear the water is.
Be too muddy to spread fertilizer and seed though.. Have to wait.

You know this but----the better the cover---the less$$$ on alum

Having the same problem with my pond as well.I went with erosion mats all around the inside of my levee (900 feet) and it has paid dividends.Most likely will sod some areas over the top of the matts if the fescue doesn't get going very well

Just a quick follow up. I had to mow yesterday. The wheat is doing very well, it was shading the short fescue, so I set the mower as high as it would go.
Looks great. I'll take a pic next time I'm up there.

Yes let us send some pictures.

Mike,

I found these for sale at Home Depot for $44/each. Is this what you mean?

8 ft. x 112.5 ft. Polypropylene Single Net Straw Erosion Control Blanket

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-8-f...-1125/204268230

Do you just plant the seed then roll these over it?

I figure I will need at least 1500 ft.

Thanks,

Bill

I live in Georgia where clay is a big problem. On all my dam areas and other high erosion areas I plant Lezpadeza. Lezpadeza will litterly almost grow in concrete and will proliferate and in some cases take over an area.

It is illegal in some states to plant Lezpadeza so you need to check with your local laws. In Georgia I use Kobe Lezpedza. Athen Seed company in Georgia will ship to most states I believe.

My typical procedure on new reclaimed forest areas of pine and clay is as follows:
1.) Let weeds come up first year and drop at least 2 tons lime on ground
2.) Plow/Rototill 2nd year
3.) Fertilize/Plant

I know this does not answer the original question but for those of you having problems with Clay look at Lezpadeza.

Not a great pic, but it shows the wheat/fescue growth in the background (where I mowed.)
This was all planted late last summer, after the earth moving was completed.
I was up there all last week dumping lime, fertilizer, and more seed. I also cut some cedars for cover. At the end of the week, we had three days in the upper 70s. It seemed to grow an inch each day. I decided to mow Saturday morning, because I knew I'd be gone for a while. My concern was the fescue would receive no sun, if the wheat got too tall. I am probably way off base.
Right where I'm standing, when I took the picture, is where Rainman's boat trailer was parked, so I did not get it seeded very well. The straw mat is visible in the bare dirt though. I put down five of the mats.

As a side note. I got two other cedar trees out in much deeper water. I used the canoe. This picture shows how far I could go out with my waders. Not very far with a 12' cedar. The water is still very cold. I tried to go out further without the waders. It's really cold. There's a million tadpoles everywhere, and the Fatheads are on the surface swirling around like mad. I don't know if it's a spawning thing, or they are eating something. I haven't thrown any feed in..

Bill D That is the product.

plant the seed--- roll out the mat---you will be surprised how well it protects the bank. The grass will grow faster and better under it.

There are many Lespedeza species; They're legumes. Slender Lespedeza is a very beneficial plant and great for deer, rabbit and quail also...Sericia Lespedeza is banned most everywhere. It was first introduced by state Highway departments as ground cover and for erosion control. Also thought originally to be a good food source for deer, quail and rabbit, but the plant has toxic tannins and is very invasive....seeds can last over 100 years in the soil. Missouri will cost share to eradicate it, but if the ground is ever disked or tilled, some of the old seeds will germinate each time.

The only thing I have to add is make sure to stake the mat down. I stake it about every 2' to 3' along the edges. I've had wind roll up mats that were staked further apart.

Couple of pics that show good grass/wheat growth, and one pic (back of the dam) that shows less than stellar, growth. Meanwhile, our drought continues,, but there is hope storms expected for Saturday. (Naturally, Rainman is bringing in fish Saturday, whew!)

Nice Pictures, looks like it is coming in slowly. Get a pump hooked up and put the water to it from the pond

I've been thinking about that. I'm hoping that the K31 will grow, no matter what. I don't have elec there, so I'd have to get a gas powered pump. Plus, I'm still needing 4' to get the pond full. I don't like seeing the water level drop. It's weird, just me..

Any water that is used for getting grass established is not wasted.

There is a small gas pump that is easy to move and will run two sprinklers, it is about the size of a chain saw engine.

Is it a two cycle or four cycle engine?
I'll go by harbor freight, and see if they have anything like this. It's getting dry around the pond as the drought continues.
The good news is, we have rain in the forecast every day next week. It can't all miss us.
Thanks

Jeff...I have a brand new, 2 cycle pump you can use (or buy). It weighs about 30 pounds and moves 31 GPM.

Mike, where do you get that small gas pump? Who makes it?

I got one @ northern tool. Mine was right at $400 I think. It has a Honda motor.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200585735_200585735
They do have a cheaper one but the Honda has been trouble free for 3 years now.

Pretty neat tool Brian.

Thanks Rex,
Looks like we will get rain in there next week. You saw the grass, it's doing pretty well. A couple of drier spots could use watering, but overall I'm amazed at how well it all came up. Especially considering the lack of rain.. I'll send you a text. I think I'd prefer a four cycle, but if the price is right.. Ha

Tried mowing with a 5' brush cutter behind my little tractor. As you can see the second round of seed is filling in the gaps fairly well. There are still a few holes where the seed didn't take, so I'm raking and reseeding those. We keep getting little half inch rains, while the rest of the state gets drenched. They really help the grass, but do very little for filling my pond! Ha

What I find works great is cut the grass first then seed the gaps heavy then cover the seed with the grass clippings. Then water heavy. The clippings holds in the water and if you water every day in a week you will be cutting that bare spot too.

Cheers Don.

As you can see, I've got some clippings. (Mostly wheat) it should work great.
Thanks

We've had a bunch of little rains since the last pic. I mowed up there on Tuesday, between the rains. These little rains add absolutely nothing to the pond, maybe a half inch, but they have made the grass really go crazy..

Same image as the one posted above. Newer one shows how the SMB beds are now under water. (Except for a couple.) Still have 32" to full pool.
The grass has come in very well. The heads of the wheat get eaten off as soon as the wheat goes yellow. I was hoping the turkeys would come in and hang around. I'm pretty sure it's the deer taking care of the wheat.