First, am new to the forums and am a novice at everything fish. And I am needing help.

10 days ago we stocked our pond with fish from Arkansas Fish Stockers. It is a brand new pond dug this summer, about 3/4 surface acre and filling. Will be almost one surface acre when completely filled. On their recommendation, we put in 50 LMB, 400 coppernose BG, 50 red ear bluegill, 400 channel catfish, and 10 lb FH minnows.

The first few days, had deaths of a few BG (both types), a couple of bass, and a decent number of minnows. I can understand that due to the stress. I figure that is to be expected. We also lost about 26 catfish the first 3 days. Still, I can understand that.

However, 10 days after stocking, the catfish are still dying. I figure now that I have lost another 30 of them. Each morning, I pull out 1-3 of them, with the last two days being 5 each. The stocker wants to blame the water--hard for me to buy. We just don't have water problems here, and it is filled probably with 90% rainwater and about 10% well water (which we drink personally and know to be absolutely neutral 7.0 pH).

I've also wondered if something could be disorienting some of them. For example, one of the dead ones had flipped itself up onto the shoreline--at the steepest slope of the pond. That took a trick. This morning, I went out and reached down to pull out a "dead" one lying on its back/side in very shallow water, and it wriggled out of my hands and took off swimming.

Any thoughts anyone can give me on if this is even remotely normal? Or what could be going on? I am ready to pull my hair out!

Thanks!!

As you know, without hard data, not much can be "known".

If it was my pond, I'd download this link, and send a sample of water in to be tested asap. Then I'd have hard data to tell the place where you bought the fish.

http://soiltesting.tamu.edu/files/waterweb1.pdf

Catfish are typically pretty bulletproof. If the other more fragile fish aren't kicking the bucket, then I'd suspect the catfish. BUT without the data, who's to know for sure?

Thanks for the link on the water testing. I'll go ahead and get some sent off. You would think that in rural TN, there would be options for water testing, but it has been pulling hen's teeth to find someone to do it.

As it turns out though, to your point--I haven't seen anything but catfish dead for several days, with the exception of a minnow here or there. No dead bass or BG popping up.

Welcome to PBF EG!

Are you feeding the catfish? How big are they?

Thank you for the welcome. Glad to be here! I am not feeding the catfish. They are in the 6-9" range. The stocker told me that they should be OK with the minnows, but I have wondered if I should be feeding them...I've seen flies laying on the top of the pond and the catfish come snap them up.

They'll grow a heck of a lot faster if you feed them. BUT, be prepared to eat a lot of CC. They'll get to 2#-3# pretty quick.

Did the minnows have time to breed and develope a population before the predator fish got planted or were they all put in the same time?

out 400 catfish how many you think have died, 50?

BobbyRice, I put them all in at the same time (again, I just went on the advice of the stockers), and all were put in together about 10 days ago. So I'm guessing, no time to breed.

Out of the 400 catfish, you are correct. I'm counting about 55 dead.

Thanks!

Just a couple thoughts from a person that has only been managing a pond going on three years now.

I would feed the CC. At least some supplemental feed. If they are 6-9" long in a brand new pond that has not had a chance to develop a natural food chain, they are likely one bunch of starving CC.

Also, if the CC are as hungry as you describe, likely any other fish that die or slow down will quickly become CC food so you may never see the deaths of the other fish. I regularly catch 2-3# CC on curly tail jigs and even spinner baits so they can be aggressive feeders if they want to be. And I feed 3-5# of feed per surface acre almost every day.

Just my 2 cents and welcome to the forum.

Edit: you will not need that much feed with small fish. My CC and BG have become chow hounds since stocking.

Very few fish farms hatch their own catfish and practically all buy their fish from one or two sources in the US. Your description of what has and is happening is a pretty typical case of poor handling of the stocker fish.

Different species have different susceptibility to various and numerous stresses of life on a fish farm. Some species tolerate stress better than others. Also water temperature plays a big role in delivering healthy fish. Tempering fish technique from the hauling tank to the pond is important. Not all fish are held in tanks at the farm the same length of time before being sold. There are numerous variables for stresses for different species of fish from a fish farm.

Keep track of all the dead fish numbers that you see. Likely there will be numerous dead fish you don't or will not see float 'up'. When you get the water test back with good results to verify your "case", the fish farm should give you a refund or new fish, if they are reputable and traditionally stand behind the health of their fish. Some fish farms are a lot better than others for reliably delivering healthy fish. Generally the warmer the weather and warmer the water the harder it is to deliver healthy fish. Remember that.

A fairly fish will normally live weeks or even a couple months before it actually starves to death. Pondowners try this, take a healthy fish and put it in a container or cage with constant good water quality and see how long it takes to starve to death. You might be surprised.

Thank you both, Bill Cody and snrub. I'm going to go ahead and pick up some catfish food from the local farmers co-op today and see how that affects things. The stocker (Arkansas Pond Stockers) has said that they would warranty anything dead in the first 3 days. That amounts to about 30-35 of the catfish. They are also replacing a pound of FHM and giving some extra BG and LMB. I'm supposed to meet them in about 2 weeks to pick up the replacements.

A lot of the fish that die will die after three days as you are experiencing. When smaller fish are stocked into an older pond a big percentage of the new fish that die are eaten by the existing pond residents and little evidence of fish deaths is witnessed.

Welcome, EG.
Only thing I'd add to the above is that if you need fish in the future, might consider talking to Rex [Rainman on the forum], Fish Hauler and PVC Killer Extraordinaire. He makes runs though TN with some regularity and is a great resource for healthy fish and tow truck profitability.

All fish farms and fish haulers have experience in killing fish due to various reasons. The big difference is how well or much they learn from each death experience.

It could easily be stocking issues but I'm betting on water problems. For a quick look, take a sample to a local store that sells aquarium fish and pay to have it tested.

No way I would have stocked 50 bass with only 400 bluegills. And, I wouldn't have stocked them simultaneously with the forage base that still needs to populate the pond. That's a lousy idea.

Also no way that I would have stocked 400 cats in a 3/4 acre pond that is still filling.

I'm questioning on overstocking and a resulting DO crash.

I know nothing about Arkansas Fish Stockers but believe they gave you some really bad advice.

Dave Davidson1, as of yesterday, I do have an aeration system installed. I'm only running for a few hours a day at first, gradually building up time--the water is definitely temp-stratified as I found out when I waded. So I'm taking steps to take care of a DO problem if there is one.

I had questions about the stocking recommendation by them simply because there are so many opinions. But if I'm reading you right, I'm guessing that you would say that corrective action at this point would be to stock more BG and maybe FH minnows to build up more forage before I think about supplementing the fish that I've lost. Would that be accurate?

I'm working on the water testing today, although I would be shocked personally. But who knows for sure without data.

Thanks!

I've run into fish sellers that only want to sell fish, and have only their bottom line $$ as a goal. Not all are that way.

I needed some FHM once, and couldn't wait until I had a large shipment coming. APS was coming to a local feed store in a few days so I purchased 10# of FHM from them. When I weighed the fish, it was only 7#. They didn't weigh the fish as they were put into the bags. It might have been a one time oops, but if I have to buy FHM from them again I will insist that they are weighed. If not, no sale.

If your goal is to have a more balanced pond, at least up here, stocking rates are more inline with 10 BG for every LMB stocked. IF your goal is to grow large BG, then the stocking rate that you have is close, but feeding a good quality fish food and removing any LMB over 14" is also part of the plan.

Without aerating and feeding, a pond can hold around 300# of fish per surface acre. With aeration, it can hold 100 to 200 more pounds. That's total fish weight, not just one species. So, that's where Dave is coming from. It takes approximately 10# of fish eaten to put 1# of weight on one fish. So if you run the numbers, you can see where feeding and aerating are important now in your pond.

Feeding a good quality food is key. Just like feeding lower quality food to your dog. Lower quality food = more poop to pick up from the dog. Same with fish. Feeding a better quality food will help keep water quality issues to a minimum.

I'm not sure where you are located in TN, but I'm in Marshall County. I had a fishkill the last few days in my pond that I suspect is due to a fall turnover-DO crash. Feeling embarrassed about not getting an aeration system in before now. The extended cloudy and cool weather last week and over the weekend is my guess on mine. Probably 40-50 1.5 to 2 lb bass and 10-15 large cats and bluegills. No dead small fish were observed. My pond is about 3/4 acre.

Coach B, thanks for the heads-up. I'm in Eastern Coffee County, so not too far away. And we certainly had the same type of weather that you are describing. As I mentioned, we just stocked 10 days ago so that is all the weather that we had. I feel for you on the fish kill. BTW, seeing the comment that esshup made regarding APS, I'm wondering where you get your fish from? They were the only ones that I could find so far that delivered into this area.

Esshup, thanks also for the tips. Wish I had those numbers in hand before I bought the fish to begin with, but at least that gives me some ideas of which direction I need to go.

You are not alone. Many people come here after they have a problem. What's good about this place is that there all sorts of people here, both in the pond/fish/weed control business and people with ponds. The member base here is so diverse with regards to their profession, that just about any question you have about anything (even not related to ponds) can usually be answered.

If you get any replacement fish from APStockers I would have them convert it all to numbers of FHM which you will always need more of. To get more specialized advice from us, What are your goals for this pond? Big panfish, big bass or a generalized mixture of all sizes with a few larger sizes of each or a high harvest of catfish in the next several years? Larger catfish can become significant predators in a pond setting. I agree with DD1 unless your goal is to produce a lot of eating size catfish (15"-20") you have stocked too many which will eventually cause you management problems trying to get enough out for a balanced pond. IMO it is actually good you a loosing some CC. If it were my pond I would not have stocked any or no more than 10-25. Catfish are not "bottom cleaners" and do not eat muck, leaves, and bottom debris. 400 CC in a 3/4 ac pond will make the water turbid where water visibility will be 6"-16" and most of this turbidity will not be beneficial plankton but consist almost entirely of suspended sediments. My professional job is to analyze plankton.

Bill Cody,

Basically, the goal is the last one that you mentioned--generalized mixture of fish for our family to eat and have a little fun catching. While my family loves eating fish, going out for the thrill of catching big bass is not something that we are into. Maybe my son grows into it sometime, but I don't anticipate that for many years, if ever.

Thanks!

Okay if your goal is generalized angling catching mostly all sizes of each species, then after your bass have spawned once and their young reaches 8"-10" long you can start harvesting bass and bluegills(BG). After 2 yrs, You will recognize new crop bass when you start catching 6"-8" bass. CC harvest: (eat or toss) everyone you catch that is big enough to clean. CC as larger fish become very hard to catch for average anglers especially if the CC has previously been 'hooked'.

Here is my harvest opinion based on generalized fishing goals for 3/4 ac. Others with experience will add information. Select it to suit your needs. Once BG get to 8", generally harvest any BG up to 20-30 per year. Harvest most all bass over 15"-16" releasing all smaller bass. Big bass are eating more of the larger BG (4"-5") and this reduces the number that grow to larger harvestable BG. Numerous smaller bass keep the BG numbers lower (predation) of smaller individuals (1"-3")providing less competition and more food for remaining fish for growth. Following these guidelines will keep the pond in a good mixed fish balance. Whenever you have any type of pond problems or questions return to this thread for advice so we have your pond history.

Feeding the fish some good quality fish food on a regular basis (3-7days/wk) will produce more fish, faster growing fish, and generally larger fish compared to if they were not fed pellets. Amount to feed daily for general angling can be 1 cup to up to a half gallon of pellets. Add pellets at each feeding as they are consumed not all at once unless adding just 1 cup of pellets.

An old rule of thumb, and it varies somewhat, is about 100 pounds of predators per acre. If your cats and bass live you will blow by that in a hurry. And, they will be getting pretty hungry. At that point, it is generally too late to add more groceries.

Yessir, I think they were looking out for their interest instead of yours.

As DD1 points out a lot of fish farms emphasize too many predators so later when the pond runs out of forage fish, the pond owner is back on a regular basis to buy more small fish and or forage fish. $$$$$$$$

Wow...considering everything that has been said, I guess here is where I'm at:

1) Get the water checked, just in case
2) Plan on doing some feeding, (aeration is already in place as of yesterday)
3) Don't replace the dead CC, consider that this is likely a good thing in the long run
4) Ask APStockers to give equivalent minnows instead of replacing the waranteed dead CC.
5) Careful harvesting is a necessity.

I've learned a lot today from you guys already. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this...even though it is making me sick to see those dead fish. (6 more CC since I started this thread this AM--which is very unusual since they almost always croak at night.)

You might not see the dead fish until a day or two later. Typically fish don't have enough air in their swim bladder to make them float, they are neutral buoyant. Only after a period of time when decay starts to set in, and gasses build up do they float.

It could be that the CC are starving to death too. Not a lot of natural food in the pond yet. Try feeding asap and see if that slows down the death rate in the next 3-5 days. Do they look skinny?

eshhup, hard for me to tell if they are skinny. Someone that knows what to look for may be able to tell, but this is my first experience with stocking a pond so I don't really have a good reference. I got food today, so I'm going to feed for a few days and see how that works as you mentioned.

CC are kind of not the most popular fish with many on this forum, because of the management problems they can create later. And I may have that same opinion of them in a few years.

But in defense of CC, they are the fastest growing fish (if fed) and will reach nice angling and eating size before anything else. To date, I'm glad they are in my pond. Wife and I have enjoyed eating a bunch of them this year and a 2-3# CC on the end of an ultra light rod and small jig is a pretty nice fight for a guy like me that has not really done very much fishing till the last couple years. In the past I was never that much of a fan of catfish meat. But I'm telling you, our fast growing CC fed commercial fish food are about as good of tasting fish as any I've had. Wife breads up the fillets and pan frys them.......... yumm.

So don't feel too bad about stocking CC, and if you think you stocked a few too many, just start harvesting at the smallest size you want to fillet or eat. Feed them a good feed and harvest all you can catch when they get big enough and enjoy them. You and I both may be cussing the management of them as our ponds get older, but right now I like the CC in my pond a lot.

The fish deaths should naturally and gradually get fewer and fewer during the next several days. The weakest ones are dying and strongest ones surviving. I doubt they are dying for lack of food and dying due to stresses of grower harvest, holding, broker holding, again hauling, holding, then loading and then finally loading, hauling/stocking. Weak fish do not handle all those stresses very well.

FWIW I agree with Bill C. but IIRC most CC purchased from fish farms are pellet trained. I would get them on some good pellets (For catfish that is somewhere in the 30%+ protein category) to help them get started. Easy food to catch for them with very little additional effort or stress. I feed mine Cargill's 36% Multi Species. All my fish, except bass and YP, hit that, even the FHM.

EngineerGuy? Welcome!

Did you meet APS at some co-op where they bag the fish with pure oxygen with your water and then haul to your pond for stoking? Did APS come to your pond to stock?

In both scenario's, taking fish out of holding water (pond side and or truck side), then placing them into new water without tempering or acclimating will cause stress. How different the water chemistries and temperatures are can range from no problems to near 100% mortalities.

My educated guess, based on stocking/seeing/replacing dead fish when time is not taken, is that your fish where neither tempered, nor acclimated and their immune systems were seriously compromised due to shock and stress.

For a combined stocking like yours, the LMB numbers and sunfish numbers sound good, but I'd say your CC numbers were high by about 350 and FHM low by about 20 pounds when stocked with LMB.

With that many CC, expect your water to stay muddy starting around Summer 2016

In talking to the driver of the truck for the APS that comes here, he said that the fish could be on the truck for as long as 5 days before they are bagged, depending on where in the route the stop was. That could add up to a lot of sloshing around and net dodging in the tank.

FWIW I agree with the pros that the fish have probably been heavily stressed on their journey to your pond. Lesson learned for you. I also understand that any fish that died after 3 days is on your dime. My thought, IMHO you need to do what you can to help the remaining fish in your pond survive now and worry about what you can do to improve future stockings later. That's why I recommend you get them on a good pellet ASAP. IMHO The additional stress of trying to find food in a 2 or 3 month old pond for a 9 inch catfish cannot be a benefit to them. They need an easy nutritious meal and then rest.

But I am not a pro...Just my 2 cents

Edit: Once the fish start feeding I would consider feeding pellets soaked in a good antibiotic for a few days...but again, I am not a pro

Rainman, yes. Met them at a farmers co-op, and they bagged the fish. I did follow their recommendations for acclimating them though. I was prepared for the initial wave of dead fish. It is the on-going wave of dying each day. But at least now I'm looking at it differently--as a positive in the long run.

Thanks Bill D for the pellet recommendation. I'll make plans to try some of that brand.

My thanks again to everyone for their insight and encouragement. This is certainly a learning experience and I have some ideas on which direction I work toward with the pond.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I have to ask. Is CCVD a realistic possibility?

The last two days, floaters are appearing in higher numbers despite the aeration and attempts to feed. 13 yesterday, and today about 20 so far. They are seeming to float up today by the hour.

A few things that I have noticed: A number of them float with head up, tail down for a while before finally going belly-up. Also I see what appears to be internal bloody areas on some of them, maybe 20% of them. The first few that I saw I was wondering about a parasite. Any time that I walk around the pond today, I will see a number of live CC right up next to the shoreline, in barely enough water for them to fit in--just laying there. I nudge them with my foot and they will generally swim off, although some come back to almost the same spot.

Also, as opposed to the first time that I threw food out almost a week ago, the fish will hardly show any interest in food. I realize at certain water temps feeding may be erratic, but it just seems strange that a week ago they were swarming to some food, and the last 3 days that I have tried to feed...they won't touch it.

I happened to see an article on CCVD, and it seemed that they mention as symptoms a number of things that I am observing. Hard for me to believe that I got diseased fish directly from the stocker like that, but I wanted to ask if that was a possibility, or likely coincidence.

Thanks in advance!

CC Viral Disease is a possibility in your stocker CC especially since you are seeing bloody areas on some of the fish. Starving CC should not have 'bloody' body areas.

Is there a web link available that describes and shows symptoms of CCVD?

Here are a couple, although mine are not showing the bloated condition of the ones that they show in the pictures.

http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/a/a2/Channel_Catfish_Virus_Disease.pdf

And a few pages from the "Channel Catfish Farming Handbook"

https://books.google.com/books?id=PdxLfZ...ish&f=false

There are also common bacterial pathogens that are ubiquitous that attack stressed fish that produce "bloodied" symptoms.

I am not a pro but FWIW It sounds like an infection and you may lose them all. They should be over any acclimation issues by now, IMHO I would throw some antibiotic soaked pellets and hope the problem is a bacterial infection. The antibiotics will not help if you have a viral infection. I am not sure there is anything you can do if it is viral.

I would also find a new source for the future.

Just my 2 cents

I agree with Cecil that the stocker CC may have a form of bacterial infection that is common in stressed fish.

I have recieved cc from arkansas pond stockers twice this year with no issues ,,

So what is the solution? I got the antibiotic soaked pellet idea from something I read that Bob L. wrote.

Bill D....out of curiosity, where did you get those pellets? I've been searching for them and haven't been able to find a source. I'm not sure that they would help me as right now, I'm not getting the fish to eat even the regular pellets very well, but would like to know where to get them anyway. Thanks!

I just get mine at Farm and Fleet. The full name is

Sportsman's Choice
Trophy Fish Feed
Multi-species Formula

It's a 36% protein food made by Cargill

Thanks!...I'm assuming that I would buy the antibiotic separately and soak the food in it?

The food is just the kind I feed my CC. No magic cure there. I am sure any good pellet would work. Wish I could tell you more, I just remember reading about soaking pellets in antibiotic in something Bob L. wrote. Maybe one of the pros can offer more info on treating a bacterial infection.


...or maybe I saw it in something Cecil wrote

It has been a couple of months, but I wanted to report back here just in case it will help someone else. I kept careful records of the CC mortality. After about 2.5 weeks after the stocking, the dying simply stopped--almost cold turkey.

I wound up talking to another fish supplier--his opinion was that the catfish that I got from APS were simply stressed when I got them. He may well be right. As it was, I lost about 130 out of the 400 that I originally stocked. In reality, after hearing from you guys and some others, that is a good start to getting the #'s back down to something reasonable anyway. Lesson learned. When APS came around to give the warranty fish (whatever was lost in the first 3 days), I said no more CC--and they gave me FHM, shellcrackers, and a few LMB instead.

Due to the recent rain, my pond is now completely full--way ahead of when I expected. I guess runoff will do that. Built a pier, and am now looking forward to future seasons! Thanks to everyone for the help.

Good swap,and good news all around on getting a full pool and varying fish, EngineerGuy!!!

I just read this thread today. Pretty interesting. My first thought was way too many CC, and probably too many of everything else. There are many guides on stocking posted on the Net, and I don't think what APS recommended was even close to anything I've seen. BG multiply rapidly. They will spawn at least once before the LMB will be big enough to prey on them, and fewer of them would probably have been plenty, and if you're not really interested in catching bass and you stocked them mainly to control the BG, you probably didn't need so many of them either. If you eat the CC, you can probably do well by replacing a few more than you take each year until they are at least 3 yr old. They may spawn at 3 or 4, especially if they have some suitable nesting spots. In addition to the BG, you might have stocked some RES, and you still could when the fish stop dying. I'm also wondering what the members think about stocking shiners and/or shad? Maybe grass shrimp or scud too.

The pond is probably going to sort itself out and find its own balance by the end of next year, unless there is something fundamentally wrong with the pond, such as bad water or it's too shallow. If you take a lot of fish out or put a lot of fish in, it will be harder and take longer for the pond to reach equilibrium. I expect that's why most ponds need to be managed. If you hand feed pellets, you'll get a pretty good idea of how many CC you have, and probably it won't be long before the BG begin to take the pellets too, but there probably won't be much going on before spring.