A doe which was apparently wounded by a poor out of season shot wandered on to my property and died in a shallow corner of my four acre pond. Seems to have been there about two weeks. Stupid question but would you pull it out or let it decompose. How urgent from the standpoint of the health of the fish is it to remove this stinking corpse?

just curious...is the corpse floating? mostly in water or mostly out of the water? do you have catfish? is decom pretty far along? btw...welcome to the forum.

Not free floating. Against the bank. No catfish. Decomp. about two weeks based upon when first noticed...was not there three weeks ago.

I faced this same dilemma a couple of years ago. Basically the same scenario, I found a dead deer submerged in the pond in partial decomposition.

I wasn't sure what to do. So what did I do? I called Dave in El Dorado. He said leave it be. I praised his wisdom and intelligence (mainly because I was afraid he would tell me to remove it immediately and I wasn't sure how I was going to remove good sized deer from the pond that was already disintegrating before my eyes).

So I left the deer be. Interestingly two large bullhead camped out right next to the carcass. Although I never actually witnessed them eating from it, it is my belief that they took on vulture-like behavior and were munching on the carcass.

My pond is between 2 and 3 acres so I wasn't too worried about water contamination.

After about a month there was no remaining evidence that the deer had ever been there.

It did occur to me that several months after the dead deer incident, I found a large Bullhead dead and floating in the shallows of the pond. I used a paddle and threw the Bullhead carcass up onto the shore. I think that deep down I was hoping for some X Files/Twilight Zone/Outer Limits type of scenario in which some deer would graze upon the dead Bullhead but I have no proof that it ever actually happened.

Jeff was your deer also wounded? Not sure if it is
true, but someone told me once that bow hunters have
a higher incidence of wounding deer that run off "never"
to be found...of course they probably eventually collapse
from their wounds.

As a bow hunter, I can attest to the real possibility of wounding a deer that is not recovered. The picture above actually appears to have entered the deer within the "kill" zone, but may have been shot from behind and pierced the deer too far forward. An arrow can be easily deflected by bone, while a bullet rairly is. However, most of the deer that I have found wounded and dead (or dying) on my property were from bullet wounds; that goes for hunters tracking deer as well)-- More gun hunters with less time preparing. A deer must be quite close to hit with an arrow while a gun is easy to use at a greater distance with just the pull of a trigger. They could skip gun season as far as I'm concerned -- Too easy for poor hunters to let lead fly. That said, more hunters are good than are bad, but it only takes a few. Snappers should take care of your carcass if you have them in the pond and it is warm enough.

Thanks Ray.

Here is an interesting link I ran across that is kind
of related. I guess we should all be careful when we
are by ourselves in mud around our ponds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrjBJ-OM5OA

He was dead so I'm thinking yes... although I didn't get all CSI on the carcass.

Now that I think about it though the deer had been acting rather depressed the week prior to me finding him in the pond so I guess I cannot rule out suicide.

+1

I was up in Northern WI week before last when shotgun season started. VERY uncomfortable to hear gunfire close by in thick trees, I'm quite certain that a lot of those guys have no idea what is behind their target. I'd like deer hunting to be bow only.

Couldn't have been deer season - only archery is open. Herd reduction and CWD areas first gun season is 10-14 thru 10-17.

I started to remove one from the pond once. Bad idea - very bad idea. Just push it into deeper water. Time and turtles will work their magic. I think they get thirsty and head for water

I have a few snappers and acting upon this collective wisdom I believe I will leave it to them.

Or, you could invite Catmandoo for a North Carolina fall mini-vacation

You haven't lived until you've seen a rotting carcass explode!

Regarding bow hunters many are very proficient and conscientious, but there are some number that have no business hunting with a bow until they do some serious practicing. Back when I used to mount deer (I now specialize in fish), I used to make the rounds of all the deer check stations/archery and gun shops just before bow season. I was amazed at the people that were preparing at the last minute for archery season, and was told by a few archery shop owners that many of these guys were horrid shots.

I've seen my share of broadhead remnants etc. when I used to visit a deer processing plant. I was amazed at how some of these deer still functioned and how tough of an animal they must be. I still have a broadhead embedded in a spinal column of a deer that was poached by a rifle that seemed fine otherwise. This was given to me after the guy was caught redhanded.

RAH,

What do you thing of the bill to allow high powered rifles in Indiana?

Cecil, they already allow them for predators, and the same cartridges can be shot in handguns, with the same "reach".

A 50 BMG cartridge is legal to use for predators and for deer if you've got big enough hands to control the recoil from a handgun.

If we only allowed archery hunting, we'd never be able to manage the deer herd properly. Archery gear just isn't efficient enough to remove the 30+% of the deer herd that is needed in most areas to keep a deer population stable.

There certainly are areas where archery hunting is the only option such as highly urbanized areas. Those are few and far between though. In areas where there is a bit more room, buck shot is a reasonable alternative. The county I work in is highly urbanized. You can archery hunt/crossbow hunt on any size acreage. However, in order to buckshot hunt you must have 20 contiguous acres and they need to be properly posted with signs stating "firearms in use". Buckshot isn't much more efficient distance wise than archery gear but it is a bit more efficient in harvesting deer. A lot of guys get a little carried away and try to shoot deer out past the 30-40 yard range with buckshot. Inside that range though, a well patterned shotgun is deadly with buckshot. Unfortunately, many guys are either too lazy or too uninformed to experiment with different brands/loads and chokes to find what works best in their guns.

Slugs and muzzleloaders would be next in the order. I have a slug gun that is accurate out to 200 yards. Compared to a high powered rifle though, the distance its projectile will fly is pathetic. Of course high powered rifles are last... A bullet from a high powered rifle can be deadly over 2 miles away. However, banning things because some people are irresponsible is not the answer in my humble opinion. Punish those who can't control themselves and are incapable of being sure of their target and what is beyond it...

In some states the decision to only allow slugs is probably a wise choice. Less because of their reduced ballistic down range danger, but rather they reduce the harvest a bit and therefore produce better hunting in areas where hunting pressure is high. I sometimes wish Pennsylvania would go to slugs over high powered rifles to produce better hunting, that's never going to happen in my lifetime though.

In Pennsylvania on opening day of firearms/rifle season for deer, there are in excess of 750,000 hunters in the woods. Back in the early 90's there were over a million. Even in highly urbanized parts of Pennsylvania, it is quite rare for a dwelling to be struck by an errant bullet. Usually those errant bullets are because of extreme ignorance and carelessness. Many guys hunt from treestands, this means they are shooting downward. Pennsylvania doesn't allow semi-automatic rifles, but many areas of my home state Virginia do. I've seen guys hunting deer with AK-47's, BAR's and other assault type rifles. Even with all those bullets getting sprayed around, it's again very rare for an errant bullet to hit a dwelling.

Just out of curiosity do we even know this deer was even shot? There are 1 of several diseases and other ailments that could sicken and kill a deer this time of year...

True but I just don't have a lot of faith in some people to use discretion with a high powered rifle in an area with lots of potential collateral targets. And there are a lot more people that hunt deer than predators.

But you and CJ may be right; maybe my fears are unfounded. However even in a tree stand where you are shooting at a downward angle the topography can change enough so that a bullet can carry.

Having seen several deer with arrows in their rumps, I allow no bow hunting on my land. Actually, I let virtually nobody but family hunt on my place. Deer are amazingly tough.

IMO, the average hunter couldn't track a wounded elephant through a fresh snowbank. Since an arrow kills by internal hemorrhage instead of shock, I think tracking skills should be made mandatory prior to bow hunting. Too many people pick up a bow to extend their hunting season without having the requisite skills.

I spend time during the year trying to track and backtrack deer. I can't do it and really haven't found that many people who can.

That's why I hunt with a cannon.

Couldn't agree with you more, Dave. I would probably enjoy bow hunting, but I feel that the time it takes to become truly proficient - so you are hunting as humanely as possible - is just greater than I can afford to take. A rifle works just fine and I suspect is a lot easier to remain proficient with than a bow based on my own shooting experience. And besides, the season can easily be extended without a bow when you own more than a city lot!

I found a 10pt and 6pt floating in my pond a few years ago, they apparently were fighting, locked horns and drowned in the pond. I pulled them both out and let the buzzards have them.

But, you're forgetting about gravity. That has a tremendous effect on a bullet. The maximum range that people talk about a bullet flying is when it's shot up in the air, not at a target on the ground.

For instance, take a 30-06, which is a common round for deer hunting. If it's sighted in at 200 Yds, and shot at a deer that is 200 Yds away and you miss, the bullet will hit the ground at roughly 220 yds past it's intended target. Granted there are ricochets and other things to consider, but rifle bullets don't typically fly for miles and miles if the target is missed.

Take my long range gun. That gun can kill an elk that is a mile away. To hit that elk, if the gun is sighted in at 100 Yds, I have to aim 65.5 FEET over the target to hit it.

I started deer hunting with a shotgun (no rifles allowed in Illinois) after 2 years of bow hunting I no longer buy gun tags. In the 4 years of bow hunting I've arrowed 7 deer, that's 7 arrows 7 shots never lost a deer or wounded one. I think with bow you have to be more accurate and te deer has to be close to get a good shot. I lost deer with shotgun but never with a bow. So to me in my experience bow is better. Also this weekend on Friday and Saturday I seen a big buck I could of tsken a risky shot at long yardage in almost dark conditions and possibly killed the nicest buck of my life or on the other hand I could have wounded the nicest buck of my life and never found or seen him again.. So I guess it just matters on how you hunt. Sorry to get off subject on this just my thoughts on some of the post I was reading..

Gotta admit that I have lost deer that I've hit with my 30-06. Not only hit; but hit hard in the vitals. No question that they went somewhere to die.

I don't take real long shots. I have to figure that the deer is just about to be venison or I don't shoot. And yet, sometimes they amaze me when they get up and run away. In 50 or so years of deer, antelope and elk hunting, I'm sure I've lost 3 whitetails. I don't feel real good about that. I've never lost a mulie, elk or antelope.

I passed up the biggest whitetail of my life in 2008. It was about 300 or so yards away with a 25 to 30 mph crosswind. I had no idea where to aim so I passed. I had seen it the year before but decided to give it one more year. I doubt that we will cross paths again.

You might be surprised. If he ain't dead there's a good chance you'll meet again, although this time it could be 500 yards 50 mph winds. I've been hunting the same buck 3 years now I only seen him once the last 2 seasons and I've already seen him twice this year I'm pretty confident I'll get him

OH GREAT!!!

Are you telling me that the next time I get stuck in the snow I need to worry about wounded elephants?

Jeez, all this county boy stuff is difficult to learn.

Nope, you don't have to worry about wounded elephants. Just Mt. Lions.

Don't forget the chupacabras too...

No bow hunting allowed on our family ranch as well.
Sons and nephews getting deer camp ready this weekend. So many second and third generation hunters we have out grown the camphouse and tent city is growing.
I can't stand that many snoring bodies in the camphouse that I sleep on air matress in my SUV .... but they spoil me and bring coffee to me in the morning.
I am still the Camp Boss and have a posted map where all hunters are located.
Lookin' forward to Deer Camp and all the food and fellowship!!!
That's what it's all about!

Bow season is my serious hunting... When firearms season comes, that is time to spend with family and friends. I still try to kill deer, but I just enjoy the friendships and family. I still bow hunt with friends and family, but I also do a lot of hunting alone in bow season.

It is a shame so many people have bad opinions/experiences with bow hunters. There is no doubt a much higher skill level needed to be a bow hunter and you can't just shoot your gun twice and go out. Near daily practice for months leading up to the season is really required. Like Dave, I agree. One really needs to be proficient at tracking deer to use a bow. A big thing is to know where you hit a deer and know how long to wait to start tracking...

My cousin is a bow hunting fanatic, he'll sit in a tree stand all day in a Hurricane and won't come in till dark. He's very skilled and has taken more deer than I can count, I also agree to be a good bow hunter takes lot's of practice to reduce wounding a deer and not finding it.

I only rifle hunt, even though I have a bow I don't feel that I have the skill to do it correctly.

While I go out in the early bow season, I don't practice enough to be confident enough past 20 Yds. So, I usually end up with nothing. Late season is different, horizontal bows are legal and while they are not any more effecient than a vertical bow with training wheels (compound, which I shoot ) I don't need to practice near as much.

I still haven't shot one past 30 Yds and the ones that I have shot go down pretty quick. About 100 feet is the furthest that I've had to track one. The one last year only went about 30 feet. The arrow slipped thru both lungs missing bone on both sides. She jumped at the noise the bow made, but stopped after a few steps, then just fell right over. I'm using Hypershock broadheads which cut a 2" wide path.

I have nothing against bow hunting but find that most people don't/can't take the time to be a really proficient predator.

I sometimes find a solo fresh deer track and try to track or back track it. I try to figure where the deer is coming from, where it is going and why. I am rarely, really rarely, successful.

That is what it's all about George!

BTW how do you know you don't snore too?

There is more than one way to bag a deer. My old bow and I did not get along. However, I took my largest deer yet with it at 15 feet (yes 5 yards). If you can't shoot accuratley at a distance, you avoid the shot, whether it is a gun or a bow. But as I said earlier, if you hunt for any length of time, you will eventually make a bad shot. Once I hit a missed with a slug at 25 yards. I could not understand it until I found a lone twig (1/2") cleanly nipped off. I did not even see it prior to the shot. The deer was not even hit.

So that's why they kicked me out of the camphouse and made me sleep in my truck?
I offered them earplugss ...

So now the truth comes out.

You should hear my wife! I have to be dead tired before I get in bed or I'll never fall asleep due to the noise!

I guess I'm not as concerned with whatever is used to take a deer, as I am with the folks who are doing the taking. It seems there are a lot of people who never pick up a firearm or bow any other time of the year, then decide they want to go deer hunting. Although I have been a squirrel hunter most of my 44 years, I've never had the desire to kill a deer. I bear no malice toward those who do, it's just not my thing. But every fall it's the same old story. Drive down any country road around here during deer season and scope out the license plates, out of county, and out of their element. The woods are filled with blaze orange poser wannabees, brand spankin' new tree stands, the latest realtree camo, and enough ammunition to fight another world war. Even though my property is posted no hunting, deer season forces me to become a virtual prisoner, afraid to venture into my own woods for whatever reason. To me, any type of hunting is a continuation of my outdoor lifestyle, that includes fishing, mushroom hunting, trapping, ginseng hunting, timber stand improvement, camping, firewood cutting, etc. I don't want to be anywhere near someone who picks up a weapon once a year, just so he or she can kill something. And yes, proper deer harvest is essential to maintain a healthy population, I just don't think buying a license should be the only qualification. My one sentence sum up of deer season? "Please God, just let it be over quickly"

sprkplug,

I actually gave up deer hunting for the same reasons. Got tired of competing with poachers and idiots. Calling in violations was a joke as it would take at least 3 days for someone to get back to me. Didn't matter if you had exclusive permission as there would be always be someone trying to trespass. I once had a guy standing below my tree stand at first light!

Same goes for the large local lakes which IMHO aren't even safe for the average angler in a small boat anymore on weekends. I was told to fish on the weekdays. Why should I?

I was almost hit head on once at night by a speed boat with no lights. The intoxicated passengers laughed about it when I illuminated them with my light.

Sure glad I have my own slice of heaven on the property and don't have to deal with them anymore. I feel sorry for those who don't have that option.

Private land and waters are very nice for that reason... There are definitely some very unsporting, lazy, rude, inconsiderate people out there. I have met many of them over the years. I have also met some very nice, considerate, knowledgeable and sporting hunters and fisherman hunting and fishing public lands and water. States do require hunter safety courses, sure seems like perhaps they should at least require a refresher course from time to time...

Speaking of poachers for deer, do you guys ever
have to deal with people sneeking on to your land
to fish?

Thats one of my worries being since I won't be living
on site full-time. After spending the time and money
to make a body of water pretty special I suspect somebody
is going to not care about NO TRESPASSING and try
and get 'em some fish.

Besides protecting your water and fish, a co-worker told me
that some states make you liable for any injuries that someone
incurs on your land regardless if they were invited, unless you
post NO TRESPASSING signs.

I quess you could call this poaching.

I'm sitting on my porch Sunday enjoying a cold beverage when an old fella is driving by, mind you the road is about 1/4 mile from my house. I can hear this guy talking on his cell phone clear as day. When he slams the brakes on and says "holy shit mark you ain't gonna believe this" well that caught my attention. He proceeds to get out of his truck walk 100 yards on to my propert MY FRONT YARD, I'm like what the hell is going on. He walks up To a giant oak tree and rips off the biggest elephant ear mushroom I ever seen. So I yell hey as***le to which he replys oh sorry if you want it you can have it. Im like no sh*t its my property.i would have just gave it too him if he would of asked. So people are just idiots. Then he loads it in his truck and don't even say thanks.. This mushroom was almost the size of his truck window it was huge.. Sorry for the profanity but it really p***ed me off..

He will be back for something else so be ready.

12 ga is loaded

Every state is different.

Indiana does not hold the landowner liable unless they are recieving compensation from the person on the property (like a hunting lease). No signs necessary in Indiana. If you don't own the property, you must have written permission to be on it. Period.

At which point we will change your Delta Chi (aka "screen name") to Tresspasserkiller!

In WV, landowners can potentially be held liable for injuries to trespassers in the event the landowner fails to warn of non-obvious dangers. As an example, if you have a field of tall grass with a deep ravine in the middle that's not obvious and not somehow marked, that could form the basis of liability if even a trespasser got hurt falling down into the ravine. Kind of screwed up, frankly. Otherwise, if you trespass, you do so at your own peril. It's a bit different for invited guests.

After the next guy grabs a mushroom on my property lol

I have never figured out laws where people who are breaking the law are held with higher regard such as if a trespasser hurts themselves, they can sue, or if a burgler accidentally locks himself into the garage of the home, he can sue, or states that have you shall retreat statues where if someone breaks into your home, you have to try to retreat rather than confront before using deadly force. Incredible! Todd, it's all because of pesky lawyers too!

Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1IMO, the average hunter couldn't track a wounded elephant through a fresh snowbank



DD1 what's up?? Man if a person can't track a deer in the snow you would be in big trouble down here in Arkansas where every fricken thing is brown on brown!!! I am from North Wisconsin and it took me a long time and a lot of practice to track deer down here! And even so sometimes you just can't find them even though they may be dead 80 yards away. It's a lot harder and you better have some patience and maybe even some friends to help!

Well, the cool thing in WV, Travis, is that if someone breaks into my home while we're here, we can shoot them dead pretty much without question. None of that sissy-tree-hugging-let's-all-get-along crap about trying to retreat first! On the other stuff, I'm with you as some of it just seems to defy plain old common sense. But then whoever said legislators have plain old common sense!

In my home I'm the LAW, not some a**h**e in Albany or Washington, if someone breaks in while I'm there he won't have to worry about going to jail, very simple.

And that's exactly how it ought to be, AP. With you 100% on that one!

Yeah you got that right!! My wife and kids come first. I will not hesitate to protect them or me if someone is in my home!! PERIOD!!

I don't think it's a very good idea to talk about taking the law into your own hands regarding deadly force against trespassers. If any of you were ever in the unfortunate situation in which you did have to shoot someone in self defense, this forum is publicly available and a prosecutor could use statements posted here against you.

When an intruder is in your home the law is in your hands, no time to worry about any repercussions, and my views being public are part of my freedoms!

Or if you were in the unfortunate position mentioned above I guess you could use this forum as part if your legal defense.

Hey I warned the intruder on pondboss years ago by stating If someone breaks in my house I kill them..

The PA congress, I think, has just approved more broad based usage of deadly force for it's citizens. I'm not sure the Governer is going to sign the bill.

If I'm not mistaken, it allows citizens to use deadly force even if another citizen's life is being threatened.

That's interesting info, Sunil. I am not sure of WV's current status on the issue of defense of another, but I recall discussion on that point from law school. The general principle was that one may use an appropriate level of force in self-defense, and that same right extended to the defense of others. If there had been a mistake in the right to assert that defense of the other person, for example a situation maybe involving an undercover police officer fighting with a suspect and the samaritan unknowingly helps the suspect, then there is the potential for both criminal and civil liability against the samaritan. The point was that in asserting a right to defend another person, you had better be doggone sure that you are defending the right person! And then there's the whole issue of when deadly force is permissible versus less-than-deadly force. Lots of variables there that make it a potentially very tricky subject. Definitely something to discuss with a lawyer licensed in your state and familiar with the current state of the criminal laws.

Hey, now isn't this an interesting evolution of the whole Dead Deer thread?!

One of my favorites!

I guess I am late to the party. On the original post: I would not touch it if I were you. I had my fill of 2-4 week old animals after pulling dead goats out of hog panels we used to keep them and hogs out of feeders when we had a lease and the guy with grazing rights stuck 1200 angora goats on a property able to graze 400 when his subsidies ended. The stench is unforgettable.

And I am glad Texas has a nice strong castle doctrine.