Pond Boss
Posted By: ahvatsa BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 02:50 AM
Not sure what this is. Well water (from windmill)? Not expected this time of year. Lost Talapia in this pond a month ago. Any comments appreciated.





Posted By: M Spinhirne Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 03:35 AM
Lots of FA!. I would guess the ground water had something to do with it, but you must also have quite a bit of fertility in that water. What is in the water shed that could be adding to this amount of algae bloom?
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 03:40 AM
This little pond has always been fertile. Watershed is from pasture\grazing land. With rains of .5 .25x2 and a few .1 since Aug. I doubt the shed is the problem. Maybe too many BGS? Do I dare try a chemical treatment? Water temp approx. 64 degrees. Pond is 6-7' deep.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 11:46 AM
Al, I would take a sample of the windmill water and send it to A & M. I have also used the County Health Departments but they usually only check for nasties relating to human consumption.

Watershed should not be a problem in our arid areas.

I have had that problem with untended BG ponds. Those suckers can easily create their own toilet and die off.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 01:21 PM
Dave
I had water tested a couple years ago. High mineral content and was SAFE for human consumption. Necessary to re-test? I have some water pumps and can surface splash..."stir" the small pond a-la-Bruce. I copied some of his ideals from pics and post he shared last year. Hoping to hear more on possible chemical treatment. Again, surprised at this problem in Feb. esp. with water temp still cool.
al
Posted By: Sunil Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 01:23 PM
I think you should try and swim in it to see how it feels.

Be sure to take pictures!
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 01:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: Sunil
I think you should try and swim in it to see how it feels.

Be sure to take pictures!

I sense a possible threat to the reign of King Ding-a-Ling.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 02:11 PM
Yeah, Before and After pictures.
Posted By: ewest Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 02:39 PM
Planktonic algae bloom - thick. Cause fertile soil plus dead tilapia fertilizer coupled with warm weather and wind blowing it to one side. Notice the nice colored water on the up wind side.

What is the alkalinity? For example if alkalinity was the limiting factor and it improved to the critical point (20 ppm +-) then an explosive plankton bloom can form in a few days. Same for other possible limiting factors.

Cold rain or weather can stop it but if it does you could have rapid turnover and a fish kill . Does this pond stratify in summer ? Rapid water movement would help ( boat motor for a couple hours or a circulator ). You could spray it with a light application of a contact herbicide over about 10% of the pond. Manual removal with a net (top 2 feet only) would help.

Posted By: davatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 03:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: ewest
Manual removal with a net (top 2 feet only) would help.


You just HAD to say that, didn't you? ;\)

He doesn't need any more ideas for manual labor, let me assure you.

Seriously though, thank you for the analysis. I think you nailed our problem. We even have pockets of FA growing in the cement holding tank that gets its water directly out of the windmill (before it makes its way down to the pond in the picture). I think the tilapia fertilizer and wind are making it worse in the pond, but I think you're onto something with the alkalinity question.

There is definitely something in the well water itself that is causing much of the problem.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/05/08 04:45 PM
Dave, get a new plastic baby bottle and fill it with the windmill water. Send it to A & M. They have instructions on their website. This is best done manually with the tractor a significant distance from the water. In other words, don't let Al near the water.

Don't tell where you are going to school or what you're majoring in.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/06/08 02:00 AM
ewest
Believe I'll splash it first. Have 3 1-2"Honda pumps and can splash and stir the small pond quite well. Talked with Bruce and he suggested pumping top foot out. Have decided cannot give up water right now. Would you dare try the now famous "GreenClean Pro Granular Algaecide"?
Sunil theo dave thanks for the comments...i think
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 03:34 AM
The clean-up went well today:





This is from the windmill that overflows to this pond:



and we netted a hundred of these:



The BGs were feeding on top once the surface was cleared. Plan is to stir and splash for a couple hours the next few days...we actually have a chance of rain coming!
Thanks for the help and Cecil Baird, I too wanted a "magic chemical" and have decided to deal with this naturally for now.
edit I don't think we lost any fish to this.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 05:26 AM
Baby redears! Careful--they're like hornets!
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 11:09 AM
Al, I went back to my small, about 1/8 acre, forage pond this weekend and it was also a nasty green but without any vegetation. I stocked it in 2006 with a couple hundred 1-2" CNBG and RES. It had some tiny native BG. Last year, I relocated several thousand by trapping and seining. I tossed in some pellets and saw only 2 inch BG of some type come up. Due to lack of rain, it is about 1/2 of full pool.

I haven't messed with it in about 7 months. Unworked forage ponds can be disastrous.
Posted By: Sunil Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 01:31 PM
Now that you've (Al) corralled all that green stuff to one corner, I think we can start marketing that stuff to the spa & facial industry.

We can call it "Funk."
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 01:48 PM
It's good to see a father and son getting Funky together.
Posted By: davatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 01:57 PM
As much as I'd like to admit that is me, and as often as I get my funk on, that is actually my B.I.L. in the picture.

He was lucky enough to get pond duties with papa this weekend. On the other hand, I had the arduous task of culling LMB at my mom's place this weekend. It's a hard life.

I paid my dues, though...
I raked primrose and FA from that pond for several days last summer. It's always good to get a refresher course in why I bust my tail in school.
Posted By: ewest Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 02:17 PM
Now we get the key to why the pond is like it is !!! How much primrose did you take out. If it was a bunch then the nutrients it was using up are now available for the algae. So guess what - first warm weather and loaded with nutrients and minus WP and FA the planktonic algae goes nuts. \:o
Posted By: davatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/11/08 02:23 PM
WOW! Good information, Eric!

It's hard to quantify how much WP I took out. It more or less covered the entire shoreline except for a few bare pockets, and it was anywhere from a few feet out from shore in some spots to up to 20 feet out in other spots. There was quite a bit of FA along with the WP, even last summer. The FA is worse now, however, now that the primrose is gone.

I never thought that nutrients that had gone to the WP would now be used for even more FA, but that makes a lot of sense.

I think the extremely hard water, plus scores of dead tilapia, minus WP have created this mess.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 12:16 AM
ewest
This pond has always been nutrient rich. Lots of trees and creek rises provide organic matter. Preventive suggestions? I'm thinking reducing #s and less feeding this summer. Color the water?
The windmill holding tank was drained and cleaned a month ago. I am surprised at the 'crap' growing in it.
Dave Davidson1
I may experiment with some cement holding tanks for forage this year.
Anyone guess how old the RES are? There was some fry also, too young to guess what they were.
Sunil
shall I ship the funk to you?
Posted By: Sunil Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 12:56 AM
Al, I couldn't ask you to go through the trouble, but bring some to the show this July.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 02:04 AM
Al:

The eyes on the RES fingerlings look a little large: stunted 2007 (regular spawn) YOY?
Posted By: ewest Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 03:08 AM
Al how often does the creek run through the pond ? Possible options flushing and aeration. What do you want the pond to be ?
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 11:38 AM
ewest it takes a 3" HARD rain to get the creek to run over into that pond. Nearest electricity is almost a mile. This was the only green (clear) pond we had. Now with the big pond clearing that's changed. BIG BGs for the grandkids...a la cane pole is the main goal.
theo I haven't a clue on the age of the RES. I kinda thought maybe a late spawn last fall. We had a mild summer and warm fall into Nov. Our July-Aug. felt more like April May.
edit we took out 5-600 BGs last year for other ponds.
Posted By: ewest Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/12/08 02:38 PM
Al think about a few all male tilapia from Todd. George does that with good success. Keep the BG #s low and add a few LMB 8-10 in. if there are no predators already. Keep those pumps ready to repeat what you are doing.
Posted By: Tuzz Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/13/08 08:04 PM
We were starting to get that problem 2 years ago. The FA was taking over and I did not want to use chemicals to kill it as we swim in the pond and so do our dogs. At the suggestion of my pond man, Scott Trava (http://CatskillPond.com) Last year in late May once the runoff stopped we used pond dye for the first time. Between that and aeration we had no FA at all last summer. This while we had a severe drought that brought our water level down at least 2 feet from the spill way. I planned to do the same thing this spring and hope for the same success against the FA.
Posted By: ewest Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/14/08 01:15 AM
Tuzz how are your fish doing ?
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/26/08 11:59 AM
Anyone ever used one of these?
http://www.solarranch.com/spbubbly.html
_________________________________________________________________
"Each day as the sun rises in the east, the PV module sends power to the aerator pump which in turn delivers air through an air hose to the one-way valve located at the bottom of the tank. The air is bubbled up from the bottom of the tank or pond throughout the day until the sun sets in the evening."
_________________________________________________________________
The bloom is back! No elec. available at this pond. Looking for options.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/26/08 01:45 PM
Al, interesting deal. However, oxygen demand is less during the day than at night or early in the morning. This sucker shuts off at night when plants start sucking oxygen. I like the idea of solar if you could store enough energy (batteries) for it to run 24x7.
Posted By: Cary Martin Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/26/08 01:48 PM
Dave, you're quicker than I at replying to that.

How far is the nearest power location? 1 mile, 2 miles, several hundred feet?
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 02/27/08 11:40 AM
Dave that's why I quoted, It's cheap enough to give a try. I hadn't thought about batteries also? My thinking is "better than nothing"?
Cary it's just under a mile. Underground won't work, has to cross a creek. Windmill is a no, low spot.
I am pricing wire etc to run to another pond from meter and for 240 service, 700+ ' it's looking like $4g...
Posted By: Tuzz Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/26/08 08:19 PM
The fish and pond are doing fantastic. Memorial Day weekend we put in 1 1/2 quarts of concentrated "blue/black" die and again there is no FA. Ponds in the area are covered with the stuff right now.
The blue gill just had massive hatch in the past 2 weeks and we are catching brick size blue gill on fly rod with popping bugs.

It is time to warm up the frying pan and take some fish this year for the first time.

I think my pond man really has our pond well tuned.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/26/08 10:01 PM
Tuzz!! You're back! You need to post more. ;\) Glad to hear you're getting some bricks.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/27/08 03:25 PM
I went down this same road in 2006. I researched and researched then performed some calculations and had them double checked by some solar guru's on a solar forum. As DD1 said the main issue is that without storing electricity you can only aerate during a relatively sunny day (not at night and probably not on real overcast days). It's been a while since I have performed all the calculations but I can tell you that when you begin to calculate the cost to purchase enough batteries to guarantee enough of a power supply to run several hours at night, enough solar panels to charge said batteries adequately even when you have had several cloudy days, and all of the other related equipment, your cost will increase exponentionally. In 2006 when I performed my calculations, in order to design a system that I could store enough electricity to run a system for 8 hours during the evening, after factoring inverter inefficiency and "average hours of sun" (which varies per location), the system cost ran between $4,000 and $5,000 for the solar system alone (in other words this does not include the aeration portion of the system). Obviously if you calculate the system for less than an eight hour run time it would be less. I don't know if the costs have changed that much or not.

JHAP is not a solar energy expert and did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night. Any advice give by JHAP should probably be ignored or ridiculed. The mere fact that you read JHAP's post and have considered what he has to say makes me question your ability to determine truth from dribble. Perhaps you should consult with someone that actually knows what they are talking about.

Posted By: TOM G Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/27/08 05:50 PM
I just love fine print \:D
Posted By: burgermeister Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 05:37 AM
Solar panels can be had for $5-7 per watt. You can make a system to aerate that small pond for a few hrs. at night for under a grand.(Including aeration system unless the pond is deep. 8 ft deep, no problem. Look back at some of the solar aeration threads. Add microbes since the water is warm to help get rid of the nutrient load.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 09:58 AM
 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
You can make a system to aerate that small pond for a few hrs. at night for under a grand.(Including aeration system unless the pond is deep. 8 ft deep, no problem.


Probably should have added a size disclaimer to my disclaimer.

My pond at 17.5 feet deep (at the deepest) and 3 surface acres required at fairly decent pump to achieve the desired air flow at the necessary psi.

Man if I could have a system for under a grand I'd be a very happy JHAP.

Now I need to work on a disclaimer for my disclaimers.
Posted By: JoeG Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 10:19 AM
Has anyone priced the cost of tubing and figured out if piping air underground or overland would be cheaper than trying to transmit the electric to run a pump?? The thought occurred to me that 1/2" PVC will handle a decent amount of air pressure and would be easy to obtain and install. I have a buddy who runs 150 PSI in his shop using PVC pipe, even with line loss you would have decent air pressure at the end, just a thought.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 01:29 PM
It is definitely cheaper to run air in plastic pipe rather than electricity in copper wire. Somewhere around here are the calculations and/or figures to show the pressure loss for (say) 1/2", 3/4", and 1" pipe over distance.

I will be running about 600 feet of air (hopefully) later this year and plan on using 1" black plastic water pipe. It's about 2x the price of 1/2" and 1/3 more than 3/4", but the line loss is much less. And I may be daisy-chaining air through this pipe even further in the (distant) future.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 04:17 PM
JHAP is correct with his addemdum. Once you get over about 1cmf at 5 psi needed, the cost of pump and running it escalates rapidly. (I got your back, JHAP.) Didnt mean to knock down your calcs. I am a 'rigger' and was assuming DIY.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 04:47 PM
 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
(I got your back, JHAP.) Didnt mean to knock down your calcs. I am a 'rigger' and was assuming DIY.


No problemo Burger. I should have read the thread (hey that rhymes, what's with me and rhyming lately? First my Bruce/Excuse rhyme and now this) all the way through and I would have noticed that Ahvasta's problem pond was smaller.

I am also a DIYer as much as possible. You'd probably be surprised what this old bean counter can do. You know that sounds like it could be a good tv program...."This Old Bean Counter." Probably would have to be a reverse instructional showing what to avoid doing and how to do things the hard way since that is what I'm best at.

I could have already filmed an episode "Trimming Poison Oak in Shorts and T-shirts" that was lots of fun.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 04:53 PM
The Poet Laureate of the Green Sun Fish Association has spoken.
Posted By: GW Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 06:55 PM
I understand that the low point for DO is early morning but aren't you going to still make a significant difference if you aerate in the daylight hours? Wouldn't you be loading up on oxygen so that as it drops through the night it isn't likely to reach as low a point?

I've always wondered about this. Is it not possible to "load up" on DO?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 07:27 PM
GW, Others - ".....but aren't you going to still make a significant difference if you aerate in the daylight hours? Wouldn't you be loading up on oxygen so that as it drops through the night it isn't likely to reach as low a point?"

As always, it all depends. Yes and No. One will probably make a significant difference by aerating during daylight primarly by mixing and adding DO to water depths that would not have had DO naturally due to lack of sunlight getting to the depths or those zones. All surface mixed and light receiving water (euphotic or photosynthetic zone) will usually become saturated with DO during sunlight hours. Unmixed zones of the deep waters and or dark zones have no DO additions once thermal stratification occurs.

But here is the kicker. Water at different temps will only hold so much DO until the water is 100% saturated. Super saturation does occur but the super saturated DO will be quickly lost into the air when the sup saturated water reaches the surface. As water warms the amount of oxygen it can hold DECREASES for it to become saturated. So in increasingly warmer waters the water actually holds less DO at the point of saturation for each increase in temp. Thus trying to supersaturate the water or "load it up" on oxygen beyond the point of 100% saturation does IMO little good. The amount of BOD (biological oxygen demand) of each water body and at each depth zone determines how long the DO will last during the non-photosynthesizing periods.

Posted By: GW Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/28/08 08:29 PM
Is it true that most DO related fish kills happen after a few cloudy and/or windless days? Would that mean that reaching the critically low DO levels follows a period where a pond doesn't reach it's saturation point for a few days? Would daytime aeration on those cloudy windless days tend to achieve DO saturation that otherwise would not have been met?

I know there are a lot of variables and therefore no consistent rule, but I'm trying to boil it down to this; How likely is a DO related fish kill in a daytime aerated pond vs the same pond with no aeration at all. What does your windmill/solar money actually buy you? Does anyone know of a daytime aeration pond that had a DO related fish kill?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BG pond turned nasty! - 06/29/08 02:39 AM
GW asks: "Would daytime aeration on those cloudy windless days tend to achieve DO saturation that otherwise would not have been met?" and "How likely is a DO related fish kill in a daytime aerated pond vs the same pond with no aeration at all."

Day aeration on cloudy windless days no doubt helps increase DO in the water toward 100% saturated levels. As I mentioned earlier one of the biggest benefits of day aeration is adding oxygen to the deeper waters beyond the depth of photosynthesis (euphotic zone). The larger and more voluminous the water is below euphotic depth the less likely a fish kill will occur providing the deep water starts off with saturated or near saturated DO. This concept is why deeper ponds are better in the northern snow belt. Everything else being equal, total DO will last longer in a deeper oxygen saturated pond vs the same sized shallower pond. The pond with deeper DO saturated water has a larger "bank account" of DO than the same sized shallow pond.

I'm not sure of the likelyhood or percentages, but deeper DO saturated is much better than shallow DO saturated.

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