We had our 4' culvert inspected and were told we should treat the bottom of it for surface rust. The rust doesn't go all the way through, but we do need to treat it with something that will protect it and prevent future rust.

My husband used "Extend Rust Treatment" on cars he repaired up north many years ago and wondered if this would work. Anyone ever use this on culverts?

Anybody have any recommendations for a product that will do this?

Thanks!

How long is the culvert?

I'd look for a 2 part epoxy alot stronger and more durable..

About 40 feet.

I've used POR15 on other rusted things - above ground fuel tank, mower deck (top), and by following their directions, it's worked very well. My concern in the culvert is how do you get it 100% dry.....

http://www.por15.com/POR-15-Rust-Preventive-Paint/products/1/

Good point. Since the water level is well below the bottom of the culvert, it appears dry now. However, I haven't checked deep inside yet with a flashlight. 40 feet of dark is a little intimidating.

I was going to recommend por 15 too,while it is a good product after reading all the details I might be looking into something else if it was me.The reason being I surely wouldnt want to be crawling in a dark 40 ft deep culvert again for a real long time.I think there has to be a 2 part epoxy paint for this job,I just have no clue as to what it is.I'd be looking at stuff aimed towards ships and bridges if it was me.

I just sent a email to a friend in the commercial fishing industry,if he is in port he might have a recommendation.

i wonder how bad the fumes would be inside a 40 foot pipe applying epoxy?

is there ever a way to slide a slightly smaller black plastic culvert into an exiting rusting galzanixed culvert?

bad at best,I have to say I like your plastic culvert idea.With my redneck engineering PHD I think some hydraulic cement and a properly sized tube would make a really nice permanent solution.

Wouldn't water get trapped between the new plastic culvert and the existing one? Could you ever get the seal strong enough to prevent that?

hydraulic cement is primarily used for underwater applications..........in Jersey it is what was used for Hoffa's shoes that have kept him from being found In short with a properly sized plastic culvert and hydro cement i think you could have a really good permanent repair.

I see no reason why you couldnt fill the gap with hydro cement,after thinking about it this is what I'd probably try to do.

Again I'm no expert and there are plenty here,but with what i know this is probably how I'd go about fixing the problem,if it was mine.

This is jkrueger's other half- thought I would step in with my 2 cents. Years ago when I did bodywork I found a product called Duro Extend rust treatment that somehow chemically bonded with the oxidation to form a polymer coating over the rust and seal it. You had to knock all the loose rust off (stiff wire wheel on a grinder or drill), then brush the material on- it goes on like milk (it was latex-based) and when it works properly it turns black. I was able to bondo over it, prime it and paint with good long-term results.

I thought that might be good to use in this application, but figured we should check in with this forum first. This stuff has been around for years, and certainly there must have been newer/better/safer things developed. From the descriptions, it looks the the SEM Rust Mort might be the same material. Anybody know if it's different?

I gotta do something before March or so, or it will be another year!

I am a complete novice in such matters, so i can't answer.
But I wonder if it would even matter though?
Is this a culvert drain for a pond or a culvert one drives over...ect?
Before placing the new black plastic culvert....
Maybe you could drill holes in galvanized bottom to let any water seep out.
Others can answer this better than me.

This is both a culvert drain and one we drive over.

I'm beginning to like the idea of the black plastic slipped inside the exisiting galvanized steel. However, as you can see from my "hijacked" post earlier, my husband is very concerned about the rust continuing if it's not stopped. Perhaps we "stop" the rust with whatever product that might be, then we insert the plastic.

How in the world do you insert 40 feet of plastic without damaging it - cracks, holes, etc?

Extend works well by chemically converting the surface rust and stopping it...you would need to seal the surrounding metal once rust is converted however.

I think you have to look at service conditions first. What's it got to deal with?

I would think that if you properly prepared the surface, and correctly applied an appropriate Urethane System, you'll be good for the next 20 years.

Some Epoxies may work fairly decent, but I am taking abrasion into consideration, which may have been a major participant in your current situation. Other factors apply as well.

I like Robert-NJ's "Redneck PHD" line! I wish I would have thought of that It's probably patented by now

I would call Mike Otto and tell him you are a subscriber to PondBoss magazine and a regular poster on the message board and get his feedback. Besides being a super nice guy, he is an expert. You'll probably have to leave your number and he'll call you back in a few days. Plus he'll be busy at the PondBoss Conference this coming weekend.

Mike Otto

Hey Zep! God did make more than one expert

Actually, Mike Otto was the one who came out to our property and recommended we treat the rust and seal it.

Does he read these posts???

What were the specific solutions offered?

Mike "toured" our property and had several recommendations throughout. Nothing pressing, but he did suggest that we treat this rust before it got bad. He didn't have a particular product in mind.

He was brave enough to enter that 40 foot black tunnel and check it out.

Very nice with a great sense of humor.

I'm an industrial and commercial painting contractor. The problem you will have with coating the pipe is it's made from galvanized metal. There are VERY FEW products that will stick to it. Most that will stick are not suitable for wet applications. If it was mine, I would go with the plastic pipe insert. You can get a product called STAMPEDE at Sherwin Williams that comes in a caulk tube to attach/seal the plastic to the metal.

Assuming the culvert is hot dipped Galvanized:

Coatings for Galvanized by AGA

A combo epoxy/urethane system seems to be pretty solid.

Probably pretty expensive tho.

I may be mis-reading, but some of the statements from the link provided seem like they could be probematic for a do-it-your-selfer inside a 40 foot pipe. I think mineral spirits has extremely strong fumes. I would not want to be inside a 40 foot pipe using ammonia, Mineral spirits, turpentine, epoxy, ect....

"In order to provide a good adhesion profile for the paint, the galvanized surface must be flat with no protrusions and slightly roughened to provide an anchor profile for the paint system"

"A solution of one to two percent ammonia applied with a nylon brush"

"Mineral spirits, turpentine, high-flash naphtha, and other typical cleaning solvents can be used to clean galvanized surfaces"

Wow. I'm taking all of this in. So much more to consider than I realized.

Glad I asked!

Take what I say with a grain of salt...I sometimes throw things out just to see if I can learn something.....and in here I do often learn a lot.

High flash point Naptha might be interesting for the bystanders, not so interesting for the person inside. They'd need a scuba set-up and a fire suit. I wonder how far out the ends of the pipe the fireball would travel if a spark were generated??

Maybe because it's high flash point, it wouldn't ignite with a spark?

Hmm. The word "fireball" adds a whole new visual to this project.

jkrueger....I am sort of in "north east" Texas as well over in Wills Point, what town or towns are ya'll near?

We're in Sulphur Springs.

Good area to be in! George1 and Highflyer is in that area. I've got a friend that's in that area as well.

Been at the Walmart in Sulphur many times on my way to Lake Fork. Stayed at the new Hampton Inn last year.

Haha. We go there all the time. We actually live in Frisco and work in Plano, but head out to our property as much as we can.

Ok just one question, how much is the sealer going to cost? Would it be more cost eff. to dig it out and replace it with plastic????

That's a great question, and one I'm starting to wonder myself. I'm not ready to have it dug out quite yet, so I guess I need to "take the plunge" and see how far down the rust has spread in that 40 feet of pitch blackness...

Maybe I can talk my husband into going in first and I'll video-tape it!

Seriously, I do need to figure out how much of that culvert will need treating.

Same here....small world.
I live in Castle Hills over near Hwy 121 & Josey. (10 mins from Frisco)
Had a place at Lake Fork the last 25 years.
Decided last Spring to sell Fork & do the acreage/pond thing with my brother.
Love that The Bush Turnpike goes all the way to I-30 now.

I would think you could find someone to band-aid fix it with sealers/ect...probably be cheaper than replacement and the "fix" could last several years.

don'
Don't wamt to hi-jack your thread - don't know diddly about culverts but know a lot about ponds and fish.
I live in Plano and ponds 20 miles north of Sulpher Springs.

Headed for Highflyer's lake for a quick trip after a bit - he's near Winnsboro - you have many PondBossers nearby.
Cheers,
George

It's fun to "meet" fellow pond owners/lovers, especially when they're so close.

We're always open to seeing others' ponds and showing ours off as well.

George do you know Glenn Irvin the realtor in Sulphur Springs? Glenn is a really nice guy that showed my brother and I a few properties in the Sulphur Springs area. He has a nice web-site, with lots of pictures, and seems to always have some nice properties with ponds listed.

http://www.glennirvin.com/landlistings.htm

We kow Glenn! Very nice and helpful. He keeps asking us to list our property with him, but I keep telling him we'll never sell.

We need to have a Mini-PB N.E. Texas field trip for us local yokals that can't make the Big-un you guys are presently headed for.
Brian (Highflyer) and I have discussed it previously and will bounce the idea off him on our way to his place this morning.
I belleve he will be at the conference maybe tommorow..he has a neat place.

Now baack to culverts...

Count us in for the Mini-PB N.E. Texas field trip!

Yes, back to the culvert. I want to go the least expensive route, as long as it's effective, for now. Mike said our dam and culvert were in great condition, just needed to stop the rust before it gets too bad.

I'll go back and review all the options for stopping the rust, and then decide how to seal it based on input.

Esshup's mention of the fireball inside a 40-foot tunnel still has me spooked.

whats the stuff in a can they use to seal a screen door on bottom of a row boat. LOL

You may be on to something...
maybe this stuff might be a cheap $20 band-aid?

Flex Seal

They don't show the prep that they may have done on the boat.

why not hit it with the rust converter and over coat it with a good old undercoating for a car..............although not sure if it'll leach nasty stuff into the water.Maybe the roll on bedliner stuff would be a bit better???As I'm sure you know there really isn't a off the shelf culvert coating,so whatever you use I'd be sure to check if any nasty chems pose a threat.


As far as drying it goes,I had good results using a leaf blower to dry parts of the bilge on a clam boat before welding and painting...........Again though this is sort of fireball territory,if not worse as there is a guarantee of co emissions in a 40ft tube to be strong enough to KILL you .Maybe compressed air from a compressor (not gas) would be a better choice


Can I ask what purpose the culvert serves?because to be completely honest if it was a non critical area and I inspected it,I too would recommend treating the rust to a customer(boat/ship experience not pond though),yet if it was mine and non critical I'd just keep an eye on it for replacement and budget accordingly.Although that is just me.

That's what it appears this flex seal stuff is. Rubberized automotive undercoating.

Could not find a MSDS on it, so no way to tell what's really up with it.

Go to any auto parts store and pick it up quite a bit cheaper.

I am not actually advising you to do this, as a fix for your problem.

Do they do portable Rhino Lining???

Actually I was just kidding, but you never know it may work. I did see a show were they put it to the test and it was so so. I cant remember what they were sealing. I think it was something they kept bending back and forth and the stuff finnaly cracked.

Ehh..Explosions are no biggie

Seriously though, any solvent or sealent is probably going to require a fresh air breathing system to be applied in a 48"x40' foot coffin...

You guys are crazy! In a fun way, of course.

In response to Robert-NJ, the culvert serves as the overflow to our pond, located in the dam. We drive over it to get to our house. So, it's pretty critical.

Ya know this culvert with up to three pages of discussion already may just be the most famous culvert on PondBoss and we STILL don't have a picture of it!

Okay, photos. I'll give it a try.

First photo - The culvert is just to the left of the photo, running under the dam. It catches pond overflow.



Second photo - Culvert is directly below where I'm standing to take picture (on top of dam).



I will take a close-up of inside the culvert this weekend.

One of my first posts in mid-September ("It doesn't get any better than this") had these pictures, plus a couple more.

pretty place....thanks!

I have to agree,definitely a nice slice of heaven you have there

Yeah, you can get portable Urethane coatings done. I know an Aquaculture system mfg in MD that uses the Rhino Lining type stuff on all their tanks and equipment.

Urethane coatings are quite common practice in the potable water storage tanks for cities. Ya ever seen them big round balls on the top of a column a couple hundred feet up? They pump the water up in them things and gravity feed down to the users below.

I had the bed in my truck lined with Rhino Liner. Except for some razor sharp stainless I was hauling one day, not hardly a scratch in it.

A while back I was thinking of getting my 1200 gallon RAS tanks lined with Urethane. (when I build them) The guy who did my truck bed said no problem, I would just have to bring them in. That's just an unnecessary added expense. A good quality Sherwin Williams Epoxy will last just as long because the tanks will be inside and not exposed to UV.

I've used some cheap epoxies in the past, I'll fork out the few extra dollars for the good stuff.

If you buy a culvert today, look at getting a poly laminated galvanized, if it is in a structural/supporting application.

The epoxy/urethane combo would probably be a reasonable solution if the price were right.

Another thing to look at is Cold Galvanizing compound. It comes in spray cans. Not sure how long it will actually last. When I worked as an Iron Worker (years ago) that was an approved method for touching up galvanized structures that had to be welded on. (I hate welding galvanized )

It may just buy you some time (stopping the rust, bonding with the zinc...) until you come up with a more suitable solution.

I've worked with some extremely flammable military adhesives. Flash points just above freezing, applied it at 120F (you needed to heat this up so it would even flow) Cold Honey would be a close description of the consistency, but a bit worse. Then, run it thru an easy bake oven for 90 seconds at 450F.

Potential Fireball, Yep! Glad my math skills were up to par before I took on this project

BTW, you could be exposed to the vapors of this stuff for 5 minutes and not be back to earth for quite a while. 15 minutes, and you would not pass a field sobriety test. If you just came from concentrated exposure, you could blow a BAC over legal and get taken to the shop for further examination Pretty nasty stuff!

I asked a guy who worked there why he puts up with the conditions. He said it was a job, and thanked the Lord he had a job, and was not in prison. (this was in one of their other plants that should be demolished)

When I closed my shop. I had a 1 gallon sample of this stuff left, that I got to mess with. Never opened it. It cost me 650.00 at the time to get rid of it, and could have incurred further charges based on lab work and how to deal with it. I am betting that the lab workers all got stoned and forgot about me

I wonder what ever happened to that other gallon of this stuff that a guy from Detroit picked up and was supposed to send a smaller sample to the parent company in Germany to see if they could even spray it. Never did get a response back! Hey, As long as I am not in possession of this stuff

All you really need to do is change air per concentration of vapor based on deposit/evaporation/curing rates and keep it at 25% of the LEL (lower explosive limits) Need to know what actually makes up the stuff you are applying to calculate this, then you can get the required amount of air flow to break it down so it is not an issue.

It's all about eliminating high concentrations and dispersing them in a somewhat safe manner.

Fresh Air rig also required.

Welding Galvanized is fun, especially gas welding in a non-ventilated garage in the middle of winter.....

JKB, PM me your snail mail addy. I found some connectors that are rated for underwater use and have the catalogs to mail to you when I get back.

Scott, I probably told you this story, but I still have a spot on my lungs from welding galvanize in shipyard when I was 17 years old, prior to WW II - didn't keep me from service tho - all you had to do to pass physical was to see thunder and hear lightening - or was it the other way around....

Thanks for your early posts for us "homies"
George

Cold Galvanizing Solutions:

ZRC Products

This would probably be the least expensive option and it looks to be a pretty stable fix. I had to put my thinking cap on to remember what brand of product we used back then.

This also falls into the DIY category. Preparation is the key to any coating.

Thanks esshup,
No need to waste postage tho. I don't plan on doing any underwater electrical connections. Should the need arise, I can get anything I want from work.

Aww. I picked up the catalogs specifically for you!

Got a manufacturers link? It would be interesting to read the specs. Some of the connectors I saw were only rated for several days in a few feet of water. That's why we use systems that are considered hermetically sealed.

I am always on the lookout for new/better products tho.

Are you going to have any time next week when you swing up? I know you said the schedule is tight. Monday, I'll be in GR. The rest of the week I'll be in Muskegon or Grand haven. Maybe we could swap the catalogs for a few boxes of electrical stuff. I can just tell the boss I gotta split for an hour or so and meet you at CS. If it is early morning, that would be best.

It's looking like Friday. LMK

Nice to meet you esshup! Those golden trout you picked up yesterday were really cool! Too bad the weather was on the dismal side. A few pic's would have been nice. I took one when the feeder to the pond, east of Cecil's trailer went off. Oh well!

I think he needs to adjust that feeder. You were busy loading and may have not noticed, but the fish in that pond were almost up on the bank trying to get the pellets that were right on the edge. Kinda interesting, because they would come up sideways, snatch a pellet and wiggle their way back.

BTW: Interesting connectors. These are intended for "cautiously engineered" applications

I was too busy loading the fish to notice the feeder.

I believe those 2 catalogs are different. One for damp, one for submerged?

I took a few pics when the fish were going in, let me dig up the camera and load them on here.

Pics would be cool!

The connectors would work well for underwater applications. Best thing to do is contact technical support and explain your application. They can advise on the correct product to use. They recommend doing this. You can make the connection under water, but all power must be cut prior to doing so. These are not "hot" pluggable under water with AC current.

I would use them, without fear, if the need came about. Thanks for the catalogs.

Talked to my dad about this one (retired chemist and plating nut), and he says the rubberized coatings and non-metalized coatings will only serve to ACCELERATE the rust as it traps the moisture in-place along with any minerals which may be part of the problem. You would have to remove all traces of rust using acid before applying the coat.

Cold galvanization is absolutely the best bet in your case, as that will absolutely stop the rust. The only thing better is true zinc plating using zinc salts and some decent electrical current at low voltages. The zinc becomes a sacrificial anode (yes like a battery), and it provides the corrosive surface rather than the pipe. Zinc is fairly resistant to corrosion as well.

I have a can of the cold galvanization spray I have used on various projects and it really works well. I used to use the aluminum spray as a rust inhibitor, but the zinc-based products work a lot better. The spray I have is "industrial", I can get the brand name if you wish.

I agree on the Cold Galv as being a proper fix.

I had to jarr a few brain cells loose to remember the galv stuff we used in the past. Sign of old age I guess.

Please, I would like the brand name of the cold galvanization spray. Thanks.

I put a link to the good stuff earlier. You can also select your own, as you wish.

I did mention that preparation is Key!

jkrueger were you aware??? HighFlyer/Brian is hosting a get together of North Central/North East Texas PondBoss members on a Sat or Sun in November. The exact date will be decided soon, but will probably be Sun Nov 11, 2012.

No I was not aware, but I would love to be a part of that. Will the date, place, time, etc. be posted here?

jkrueger....looks like it will be Sunday Nov 11 at HighFlyer's place near the Mineola/Winnsboro area

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=309830#Post309830

That's great. We will be there.