Is this a choice for a 80'x 100' pond/pool as I have concrete side walls with steps and concrete floor in 30 to 40% of the area. I am tired of treating the water every which way and still just disapointed. I just want a clear water and dont need a food chain as I will fully feed /support whatever is needed. But I also want lilly pads/and Fish. Can I add a big enough filter system to Make Me happy??? Has anyone seen or done this before???

I'm sure it can be done, but I'll bet unless your budget is on the scale of some of the large public aquariums, I don't think it's going to be feasible. You can have a pool, or a pond, but not both combined and expect pool-like water.

So far I spend thousands a year on pond management and I am still disappointed... so how much does happiness cost??? what type of specks does it take?? filter size?? turn rates?? UV filteration reccomended?? should I consider a natural Pool bio filtersystem and still be disappointed.

Just askin??

I have no idea. But, I ran across this place when researching filtration systems last year. I have not done business with them, nor any affiliation, but maybe give them a shout and let us know what they say. It looks like they have some pretty large systems.
http://www.emperoraquatics.com/complete-filter-systems-layout.php They're located in Pa.

Rob,

I always dislike being the bearer of bad news, but I don't think it can be done unless you put in a swimming pool with filtering and chemicals.

Ken

Ken, I'm not so sure. Aquariums are pretty clear. I figure that you just need a big enough filtration system. How big are the aquariums at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, the one in Morro Bay, Ca, etc.?

No sunlight on those, though, right?

have you read on here about the RAS systems, and how hard do you think it would be to customize one to your situation?? Its a thought,... it may take a building for the RAS to sit in so that the algea doesnt over come it, but the cloth buildings are getting cheapper every year??

So how long would it take to cycle 250,000 gallons??

would a complete filtration of your pond in a week do the trick for you?? of course there will be limits. Have you considered dying the water blue??

is there lots of muck on the botom?? If you drained and cleaned it out and put in defusers or a surface fountain??

If your budget is Thousands a year, hire an expert to come take a look, and see how close he thinks you could get to your goal.!

the PB conferense is in your state this year too!! just a though...

Duh (as he slaps his forehead) you're absolutely correct.

I do plan to attend the fall PB conferce to gain some information on this subject. I have constructed 2 ponds on my 4 acer property in 2005. They have been a great Joy to me but I am in difficult decision as I have not been able to have the water quality that I had planned for.

Maybe I could only do a portion of the pond and Keep the water seperate??

The pond I have is a littel different as I call it my Jethrow Bodine memorial pool/pond as I have a 30 x 30 foot section with steps and travels from 6 inches to 5 feet deep.

My wife wants me to construct another swimming pool but I would like to get My pond dream to come true. Surly, I can find a better choice than building a seperate POOL.... that doesn't seem to be in the Pond Boss thing to do after all.

AS the pond was Constructed I lined the bottom with plastic road mat and lined it with 6 inch limestone Rip rap.
I have used pond dye for the last 3 seasons but with little success. several Alum tretements. regular green clean, and Microb lifts sence construction, adjusted ph as needed , all with little if any net improvement.
I will post some pictures next week.

Feeding your fish Phosphorus

You can stop slapping yourself. I doubt they issue night vision goggles at public aquariums. Some light has to be there. It is not just sunlight that promotes algae growth. They also have eeekspensive filtration systems to deal with it!

Have you checked out planted Bog filters. They are relatively inexpensive to make and are used to keep koi ponds looking good. Check the web and you will find sizing information and diy plans. Basically, you dig a second pond fill it with peastone and pump the water from the bottom of your display pond into the bog. Water flows through the bog, plants in the bog suck up nutrients and filtered water then flows into the pond.

RobC Do you have fish in the pond? If so what kind and about how many? What ways do nutrients get in the water? Nutrients cause most of the problems that I think you are referring to. When at the PBoss Conference talk to the Floating Island people. Floating islands are not a magic bullet but a good start in your situation. Plants are going to naturally purfiy your pond water. Plants filter water - nature's way of how its done. Annually harvesting lots of plants that have grown in the pond will be a key component to keeping water clear each year. Killing growth and trying to stop growth will not be your solutions to clear water in that big of a pond. Dye just covers up or hides the problem and does little to solve the real cause of cloudiness. Dye is basically "make-up on a pig"

Bender, I think you have suggested the best option here, as something like this is self-sustaining apart from the smallish water pump to keep things circulating. Those bog plants can remove a LOT of nutrients. The bigger the bog, the better the filter. The drawback is water loss through all of the vegetation, plus bugs if fish cant get in there to keep it cleaned out.

Otherwise our local zoo has several large sand-based canister filters running with at least 3 20HP electric motor pumps to keep up with the seal crap. Those tanks are in the 250M gallon range. Even then it is not pool-clear but not horrible. I think there are some UV sterilizers off of the pumps, but I cant be sure. I cannot imagine the electric costs... not to mention the installation costs.

I say live with a little algae, it is good for you and keeps your immune system working on things it should be rather than attacking silly things like pollen.

I've seen some pretty clear koi ponds that are in direct sunlight, but they have pretty extensive filtration and plants. Seems expensive.

If I remember right, the bog sizing is around 10-20% of the pond. To help with the bug problem the peastone can be filled above the bog water level, so there is no exposed water. Some people plant these bogs like they would their gardens. Bog plants are best for removing nutrients, but there is something about the filter providing more than filtration that appeals to me.

At 100 gpm filter system with a uv sterlizer and pump is a place to start consideration. and if it works is will be cheeper than building my wife a seperate Pool. this should filter everything in 48 hours??? does this sound reasonable?

Remember. I have concluded that I will trade off a food chain for clean/clear water. This pond is 30 steps from the back door and 100% sidewalk and good Hot and cold running potable water and 60 AMP cir box already installed. see photo galley for an look at what I have to start with.

I posted some photos of on the gallery and I dont know how to link them to this thred?

Rob, try this link for posting info on photos. You might have to copy and paste the link.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213586#Post213586

Here is the link to Rob Carter's pond: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showgallery&Number=299351

It looks nice! I wish I would have put some steps in.

That sure is a nice pond. I hope you don't mind me popping these up here. I'm a bit bored waiting for the laundry to get done.

Hey isn't it the Beverly Hillbillys that has one of them there Cement Ponds??? LOL

I have name this the Jethro Bodine memorial pool/pond

Thanks for the help.

Bill,
I agree with the dye program I have done that for 4 years and it just adds to the complexity of the issues and Doesn't help.
Yes, I do have a nuterient issue. I have a some YARD fertilizer runoff that I have taken steps to control and Have used some PHisolock on the issues with some limited success.


Last year I replanted much of the with Water lillies
and Increased the Shade to the pond that has also helped.

Lots of different fish, SMB, Yellow pearch bluegill,6 koi,lots of green sunfish and red ear. Plus 6 big head carp at 30+ LBS .

I see that every one is guiding me to a bio filter of some kind and I agree that will work but I just dont have the Time to Build or maitain the system. I already spend LOTS of time working on what I have. I just don't think I am up to Slaying another Dragon In this process. If the mechanical system doesn't work I can Scrap it out for some $$ recovery whereas the bogg Process would be an time consuming process and maybe 2 seasons to tell if it is going to work.

This is the time when I eat some crow. I am learning that the filteration rate needs to pass 100 % of the water through the filter every Hour. I will need 25 thats right 25 10,000 gal/per hour systems Plus l25 large uv systems stacked together.

The filter system would be larger than the pond.

Well,,, now I know.

I like my Crow on a sandwich with MAYO...

I think your in the Wrong place for advice.. This is more of a fish driven pond forum, your more in the swimming driven pond division lol.. I'd suggest talking to swimming pool expert or commercial aquariums like at the zoo or something.. They've got huge aquariums they keep crystal clear so it's got be able to be done..

Just get one of these for UV. Aquafine UV

I can also find you a mechanical pre filter and pump that will do the trick. Probably would all fit quite nicely in a 16' x 24' pump house with room to spare.

Gonna need a 3 phase electric service. I would do a 200 amp drop to have extra.

Pretty stiff price tag tho, but a whole bunch cheaper than what you just said.

Still gonna be some big bucks, and just may be able to keep it out of the 6 figure range. That's an all depends tho.

have you heard of the 'natural swimming pools' ???

check out Biotop and Bionova online.

they utilize in-pond plant filtration and are fully scalable to any size. The websites have pics of natural ponds up to many acres in size, in use as public pools in Austria and Switzerland.

the water quality is crystal clear.

good luck-
adam

You also might look up information in koi pond forums that have the same needs as you, water that fish can live in and clear enough to see them.

Interesting, the Bionova is basically pond/bog plantings where the water is forcibly pumped through the root systems and gravel. A glorified large under-gravel aquarium filter. I LIKE it!

I think you are also over-estimating the maintenance of the bog/wetland filter, which has to be much less than maintenance of a active mechanical filter system. Think when the sand in the filter gets plugged up? Huge project!

I have been doing lots homework on the natural pond system and am getting enough information for consideration but I like what I see so far. Adam.. Thanks for the great referal we will see where it leads. I have to keep working. I AM NOT READY TO GIVE UP ON MY QUEST

What about a gravity sand filter?

I was thinking Diatomaceous earth our pool was filled with 25k gallons of algae one year.We just kept running it through our de filter before adding anything.I was amazed at how the stuff just grabs algae from the water.

Try consulting WAC at koiphen http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread...pool+conversion

Here is another link http://www.totalhabitat.com/p&p.html

It's more and more common with swimming ponds rather than pools here in europe (eco friendly).
Good luck with your project

The needed turnover rate(volume) of the bow, is entierly deepended on the bioload put on the bow.
You can achive a lot by not feeding the fish, and take full control on the runoff water, going in to the pond.



You should look at differente pumps/uv(ozone) systems zizes.
Axial pumps like this
http://www.lykkegaard-as.dk/en/?download=UK-HDPE.pdf http://www.lykkegaard-as.dk/en/?download=UK-steel.pdf
cut from here http://www.lykkegaard-as.dk/en/?Products:Data_Sheets
moves 5 to 105 us gallon pr second, also with airlift pumps you can achive some impressive volumes with "low" power use.

Here http://www.ultraaqua.com/products_monoray_c440ss.html
you can fine proper zized UV systems.

I newer bought any thing from the companys above (links).
You can probably fine suplyers, closer to home, I'm just trying to point you in a direction of more propper zized equipement.

Water Daphnia eat green water, but fish eat Water Daphnia. UV sterilization works but you have to have the right size and flow rate for your pond, larger ponds are too expensive. I use the plant "water hyacinth" to keep my koi ponds clear. Water daphnia live in the roots and fish will tear the roots out trying to get to the daphnia so its best if the water hyacinths are in a pond away from fish especially koi. Water hyacinth are a heavy feeder and utilize ammonia directly and work best with flowing water going through their roots. I keep a 20,000 gallon pond stocked with 800+ pounds of koi clear all summer in full sun with a 8,000 gallon flow rate through a 200 square foot area full of water hyacinths.

These ponds also have filtration systems that pull sludge off the bottom, and are aerated heavily which is also key. Fish produce Ammonia, which gets turned into Nitrates by bacteria. You have to remove the ammonia or the eventual Nitrates otherwise you are going to get green water. Nitrates can be deluted with water changes, or expelled as a gas using trickle towers.