I've been reading a lot about using copper sulfate(CS) to control algae as it seems the stuff intends to be a pain in my back side this year. One article I read implies that CS, like salt, never leaves the pond. It looses its effectiveness as it breaks down and the copper just settles to the bottom. Eventually this buildup can potentially become an issue. I've used a gallon of liquid CS so far this season trying to keep my algae (not FA) from covering the pond surface, and now I'm concerned I may be causing long term damage.

Has anyone ever experienced this?

Tagged for Answers.
My guess is, it depends on the water exchange.

One of the problems with CS is it kills zooplankton as well as the smaller, less complex organisms.
Zooplankton is what "cleans up" a ton of the smaller, more troublesome growth. When you eliminate the zooplankton, you just broke the link that allows the pond to "absorb" itself.

That's my concern CP. I get a lot of exchange thru winter/spring, but I suspect most of that is the surface layers being flushed. Copper, being a heavy metal settles on the bottom and likely doesnt get extricated.

I finally got my pond clear of the scum, but I know it's just a matter of time before I'll need to treat again, adding yet more Copper to the system.

Snipe....I'm learning that as well. I'm confused as to just how deep CS (in liquid form) actively affects plankton before it loses its effectiveness. Knowing plankton resides in the top 3-4' feet of the water column, I'm sure most, if not all of that bloom was killed.

Regardless, with that thought in mind, I will be adding a batch of bacteria in hope's to replenish any that may have succumbed to it. I'll give it a couple more days since I just treated on Thursday afternoon.

We've been having an algae problem here up north, too. We just added Cutrite (copper sulfate) to our .10 acre pond yesterday. I'll be watching this thread for updates!

It's been awful here. I'm suspecting it's all the leaves from past fall and all the runoff dumping excess nutrients and not enough plant life to use it up before the algae gets going strong. My little pond is pushing 4yo now and it's never been this bad.

Out of pure frustration, this last treatment was a bit stronger than I would normally try, and even tho I only sprayed less than a quarter of the surface, the breezes had the pond circulation spreading it over almost all of the pond. The algae turned milky white as it died and was easy to see. I dont guess it was too strong as I didn't kill any fish and they've been biting pretty good since the treatment.

There is an article on copper in the latest issue of Pond Boss Magazine. One take away for me was that it takes a LOT of copper to be a hazard to your fish.

I'll have to look at my last issue to see if I can find it. May not have it yet, tho.

Edit: I found the article. Resting a bit easier now about copper levels. I also read another article about what your water is saying. After reading it I went out and collected a jar of water and as I suspected, I didnt see anything swimming around (plankton). However, it's been two days since I treated with a heavy dose of CS, and about a week since I added dye and three days since I dumped 500# of aglime. I'll have to keep an eye on it to see if it improves. Visibility has been steadily increasing so hopefully I'll see a bloom of the good kind before too long.

I have brookies in my pond that I like to grill and smoke, so I avoid any chemical additives. The copper will settle to the bottom, killing the phytoplankton on the way and eventually, all the beneficial bacteria and organisms on the bottom.

I agree with Bill, it will take a lot, or a lot of time. Depending upon pH and alkalinity, sooner for some, longer for others.

If you feed your fish, you aren't as dependent on a healthy ecosystem as I am but those bacteria on the bottom you kill, are also good for reducing pond muck and the development of a healthy food chain.

It's a slippery slope when you start adding any chemical to your water. One problem is solved by one chemical leading to another issue remedied by another chemical, ad nauseam.

You're best served by mitigating the issue causing the need.

I'm having a ruff go with FA right now as well.. Sucks.
I have done some small treatments with CS on riprap areas for 3-4 ft out from shore, using about 2 oz per gallon dissolved and noting little difference.
My concern with CS is Phyto is not the only planktonic growth it kills.. it can smoke the zooplankton that clean up the dead FA and smaller phytoplankton. The zooplankton is the fishfood desired for new YOY, I'm concerned about stressing that side of it but am shocked at FA coming on.
I treated pond in mid April with 300lbs alum and 100 hyd lime hoping to lock up what extra Phos I knew came in with the snow melt run-off with frozen ground. Been an up and down cycle the last week. Clear 1 day, pea soup the next.
For fear of jacking it up even further I'm going to stop any more CS use and see what happens.

Strongly encourage manual removal of FA - rake or net and collect and repurpose [mulch, garden soil amendment, etc.]. It breaks the regrowth cycle and I've never had issues with FA since I began the process, though it is labor intensive. I find I only need to remove a few times in June to keep on top of it.

Crayfish also love FA...finding the right population balance is critical, however, as too dense population can denude the pond of macrophytes and cause significant turbidity issues.

Encourage beneficial macrophyte establishment...American Pondweed, Corkscrew Eelgrass, dwarf hybrid lillies...these compete with FA for nutrients and help reduce FA significantly.

TJ, I have Sago Pondweed starting to fire up in many locations in the pond. It has shown up in several areas literally overnight.
I am raking and removing masses of FA, I can't imagine how many hundreds of pounds I've removed in the last week. I'm also noticing large groups of very small fry-unidentifiable at this point-everywhere.. so I hate to use a net or "bag" to pull FA unless it would be practical to use a larger size mesh that would possibly still collect well??

Sorry Mike, don't mean to hijack this!

Hijack away, Snipe. Lord knows I'm guilty too.

I've had a small increase in FA as well as the other crap I'm dealing with. I have to try to rake it out where I can, which is getting harder to do with some of the vegetation growing on the banks. Luckily its contained to the shallows which is very limited. I havent sprayed any of it because I dont want to kill off the good stuff. I have 5 sets of hybrid lilies shipping to me today. Hopefully they'll take root and help knock down some nutrients. Also going by the co-op after work to pick up some pond bacteria and give the pond a boost too.

Copper sulfate is bad in my opinion, but lake management companies make lots and lots of money by spraying it. I'm convinced it hurts or even kills the lower invertebrates like Dragonfly and Mayfly.

I'm pretty sure it kills everything it comes in contact with. As stated previously, a jar sample of water off my dock didnt have anything phytoplankton or zooplankton in it at all. Really glad I'm feeding both pellets and Black Soldier Flies, or the fish would be starving.

CS normally (when used in proper methods and amounts) only kills green plants. It can kill some fish species as it inhibits gill/air exchange function in low alkalinity water. It can accumulate over time in pond bottom soil which can be an issue.

Manual removal of FA is a much better (but back breaking) alternative. Hydrated lime in limited amounts can kill FA (only a spot check method) not for large portions of the pond).

I highly recommend that you id the FA or problem plants before any treatment.

I'm going to add bacteria to bump it back up after this last treatment. How long should I wait to ensure the supplement has the best effect?

I'm going to add bacteria to bump it back up after this last treatment. How long should I wait to ensure the supplement has the best effect?

Just bought a gallon of Aquavet Bio. Bacteria and enzyme treatment from the co-op. Supposed to treat 1 acre up to 6 foot deep. I'm figuring to use half initially then wait about 6 weeks to do another treatment. Would really like to know how long CS stays viable before I add this bacteria.

Put some of your pond water in a jar and watch it and when it starts to have some color then you know the CS is not active.

https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/66

Copper sulfate
(Various trade names)
Copper sulfate is a contact herbicide primarily used to
control algae. However, there are some species of algae (e.g.,
Pithophora) that copper does not control effectively. Copper
can interfere with gill functions and, if improperly used,
can be toxic to fish and zooplankton. In ponds culturing
young fish or fry, copper will often kill the zooplankton that
fish need for food and they will starve. Fish species such as
trout and koi are particularly sensitive to copper. However,
most fish kills that occur after copper sulfate treatment are
caused by a massive algae kill and the subsequent oxygen
depletion due to decomposition.
Copper sulfate is also formulated as a solution made
by dissolving the crystals in an acid. These acidified copper
solutions are registered for aquatic use and sold under
various trade names (e.g., Copper Cat®, EarthTec®, AgriTec®,
etc.).
The effectiveness and safety of copper sulfate are
determined by the alkalinity, hardness, pH, dissolved and
particulate matter, and temperature of the water. In water
with an alkalinity ≤ 50 ppm, the rate of copper sulfate
needed to control algae can be toxic to fish. Copper treatment
at water alkalinities of ≤ 20 ppm is extremely risky. In
high alkalinity (> 250 ppm) water, copper sulfate quickly
precipitates out and is not effective for algae control. The
toxicity of copper sulfate to fish increases as water temperature
increases. Avoid copper sulfate applications during hot
summer months. Copper is less effective in cold water (<
60 °F) and treatments should be delayed until temperatures
rise. (For additional information on treating with copper
see SRAC Publication No. 410, Calculating Treatments for
Ponds and Tanks.)

Thanks Eric. That really does make sense.

Little has been studied on the affects of copper sulfate concentrations on many of the large number of species of zooplankton and other micro invertebrates including protozoans, rotifers, and not even considering affects on bacteria. IMO the srac.tamu FactSheet noted above is outdated and was based on too few old studies that examined copper effects on larger common test invertebrates and fish. Dissolved copper ions are toxic and the smaller the organism the more toxic it becomes. As noted in the SRAC fact sheet alkalinity and hardness play a big role of coppers toxic effects because the negative carbonate radical binds with the positive copper ions reducing its reactive concentration thus minimizing the toxic affects on non-target organisms. Low alkalinity allows more of the copper ions to be reactive and absorbed.

Thanks for the info Bill. If I understand your reply correctly, in my pond's condition (low alk and hardness) there's a chance I didn't kill everything on the bottom of the food chain!! If that's correct I'm feeling much better about the situation at hand. If I'm have it backwards, then I've basically sterilized the pond.

I've collected a jar of water from arm's depth a bit ago and have it sitting on the dock in the sun. I dont see much in it, a particle here and there. Once I see the sample start taking on some color, I'll be adding 1/2 gallon of AquaVet bacteria/enzymes to try to help boost the ecology again.

Might be a dumb question here, if you do have a layer, buildup, of the copper sulfate on the bottom of your pond, will that not prevent future infestations of moss? or does it become ineffective? just curious, Thanks.

Once its absorbed it becomes inert and settles to the bottom with everything its killed.

A large percentage of the copper, because of its density, ends up on the bottom of your pond. This leads to sterilization of the most important part of your ponds ecosystem, the bottom.

The solubilization of copper precipitates allows it to continuously impact your pond's ecosystem, especially bottom dwelling organisms. Copper precipitates will also enter the water column through solubilization.

In other words, once you put copper in your pond, you might as well name it because it will be there affecting your pond longer than you will.

Following Eric's directions, I collected a jar of water from off the dock and set it in the sun to see when it would start getting some color to it. By evening it had started turning a light shade of green. The pond has already started putting on that oily film on the surface again, which usually leads to a scummy green slime covering the pond.

Poured 1/2g of bacteria/enzyme into a bucket of well water and dispersed it around the pound. Now it's a waiting game to see if and how long its gonna take to see results.

Mike - I'm feeling for ya, and hoping that your new'ish pond weirdness dissipates soon. I know it's weighing on you. Is it possible that the pond will settle in on it's own with age? My pond had crazy algae blooms the first two years in the spring, but this year has been skipped (so far) for some reason. Besides adding aeration last year, the only other factors have been up to mother nature.

I'm rooting for you!

Bill I agree SRAC fact sheets can become out dated. However this one contains the following

"SRAC fact sheets are reviewed annually by the Publications, Videos and Computer Software Steering Committee. Fact sheets are revised as
new knowledge becomes available. Fact sheets that have not been revised are considered to reflect the current state of knowledge."

SRAC Publication No. 361
February 2013
Revision "

I do agree there are many unknowns as to CS. Some of my experience does not match exactly what the FS says.

good luck MIke, I am about to go to war with mine. It sure can be a pain.
Dave

The strongest advice I can give anyone at this point is to stay on top of your nutrient load, particularly phosphorus, as it can and will create a lot of algae problems. I partially blame myself for not running my aeration 24/7 thru the cooler months when water temps weren't an issue. I put my pump up and didnt run it at all. The little money I saved by not running it has been more than tripled in the cost of chemicals....and a lot of aggravation.

I've learned that being a good neighbor by allowing my neighbor's watershed to flow thru my pond is causing me more grief than it's worth. If I could figure out how to divert his runoff, or filter it before it reached my pond, that would be my next big project. He's assured me he doesn't do anything to his yard but what comes off his property has been responsible for every flushing my pond has seen. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.

If you're dead set on using chemicals, particularly anything copper based, use them VERY SPARINGLY.

On a good note...the pond has 5 new resident plants this evening. My order of hybrid lilies arrived from Texas today and are now soaking up as much nutrient as their little hearts desire.

Anybody have experience with using alum to tie up the phosphorus to address heavy FA infestation?

I understand the concerns with too much copper in your BOW but, when you have so much FA that you can't fish the pond....IMHO trade offs must be considered. My preference is to never have to resort to chemicals for any purpose in our pond but, in the absence of a viable alternative, we may have no choice. To those folks that have offered opinions about the undesirable effects of copper sulfate, I salute you and agree, but, I also suspect you have never experienced seeing 3/4 of your pond surface being covered in thick FA mats. That was the condition of our puddle a few weeks back. We raked off what we could and hit it with copper sulfate and we are now FA free. Did we impact the bottom of our food chain? I'm sure we did but, I can supplemental feed the gills and have a pond I can fish. Isn't fishing the ultimate objective for most of us?

I wish it was FA I was dealing with Bill. My pond is small enough I could place an air mover on the dock, blow it all to the opposite shore and rake it out. Labor intensive, but doable.

This mess is purely planktonic and bordering on blue green algae.

I've started investigating Phoslock, but dang that stuff is expensive!!

Alum/hydrated lime/algaecide treatments are very helpful to bind and drop phosphorous and knock out dense phytoplankton blooms. Had Rex do that for me a couple seasons ago, figured I gained at least 5 years of water quality life following treatment. For small ponds it's not an expensive project considering the benefits.

TJ... guess I missed the discussion on locking phosphorus with alum/hydrated lime. I knew it was used to settle suspended clay and to help clear water turbidity. My visibility is very good and I've never had a clay issue after the pond filled the first time.

I dont have a problem doing the treatment myself if I knew how much of each to use on approximately 1 acre foot of water (probably bit less).

Is it possible to use small amounts of hydrated lime or alum alone to get the same results? I have to assume at this point that an alum/HL treatment is not going to destroy the bottom of the pond's ecosystem?

You know what is even better than fishing? Eating 100% fresh fish unadulterated of chemicals and not having to worry about a state warning I should only eat 2/week.

The problem with anything you put in your pond is, it usually just kicks the can down the road and makes another can you have to kick, then another and another and soon enough, you have a job in your back yard.

It's common knowledge why FA mats develop. Most is attributed to the watershed that feeds/supplements the pond. I need my watershed for those nutrients but not before I strain it through one of these:

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/national/newsroom/features/?cid=nrcs143_023525

Basics !

Each pond is different and each owner is entitled to make his/her decisions. Our collective job is to help inform so each one can make their best choice.

FA is based on nutrients , water and light - remove any one and the plant is limited. Keep in mind that the water sits on dirt and acts as a very good solvent.

There are many types of FA and there are differences.

Here is the archive link to FA. It needs updating.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92633#Post92633

Well said, "FA is based on nutrients..." Besides nitrogen and phosphorus, most require to a lesser degree, iron, zinc and manganese.

Easiest way to reduce all of those from entering your pond, stop mowing. When I can do nothing and receive a net benefit, I am all in.

As far as I know, every type of algae production are based on those three elements (sun, nutrients and water). The way my pond was dug, FA has a very limited area where it is able to grow as the sides drop off very quickly over 90% of the shoreline. I do have some FA, but it is minimal and I dont really have an issue with what little I have. I can easily rake out most of it in an hour or so. Because FA cant really get a strong foothold, PA has taken advantage of the nutrient load. To the point where CS treatments barely last a week. If I can make it thru this summer without stroking over this scum, aeration will be running 24/7 until the temps come up again. If I can get by without ever using CS again, I will be a very happy man.

I do mow around my pond and make sure the vast majority of it is discharged away from the pond. Even weedeating doesnt throw much refuse into the pond. I get a ton of leaves in the fall tho. The watershed coming from next door passes thru about 20 feet of wild growth of trees and grasses that have been allowed to grow at will...a natural privacy fence if you will. All that water is directed to enter my pond at one point thru a shallow ditch. It very seldom adds any color to my pond, and even then its minimal and clears in a few days.

I am trying to figure out what else I can do to filter that inflow before it enters my pond. Bog type plants in the current state wont work because once the inflow drains off the ground dries up very fast and it is sand/clay. Probably going to have to dig it out and supplement that soil with peat and gravel so it holds moisture better and the water can be better filtered before getting to the pond, which is about 30 feet. I have wild Iris on my property that can be transplanted to that location, if I can make the area suitable for them.

I have been researching Alum as a floculant and have found some interesting perspectives, both for and against using it. Regardless of whether its CS or Alum, your only treating the symptoms of the issue, and until you correct the problem, those symptoms will continue to recur.

As I see other ponds in the area, I've noticed that those that are open to wind activity are less prone to having a surface algae issue. One of the problems this pond has is it doesnt get enough surface agitation from wind. I'm wondering if hanging a submersible pump from my dock and having it spray out over the surface will improve the situation.

My thoughts are to set it up to run during the day and allow my aeration to run at night. My concern is how deep that agitation will push warm water if I'm using the top couple of feet to spray over the surface? Anyone have any experience with this sort of setup?

Mike, I can't help much, but I think if you did some reading on "swimming pond natural filtration" you would find many ideas for filtering your water with plants, gravel, fountains, and such. I am sure this means $$$, but it would certainly be an educational read and could yield some possible solutions for you. I can't help but think that a natural filtration system would be better designed if the water was pumped and allowed to flow back in rather than relying on periodic in-flow through the system. Slower constant flow can be filtered much better (and controlled off an on) compared to the high flows of an in-rush.

I do not understand what happens when the "natural filter" loads up with what it's filtering out...I guess you have to excavate and start over. It's not like you can pull the filter and replace it with one from the hardware store.

There's your $0.02 back I borrowed!

Hey QA. Looking at it from a natural perspective, a bog or wetland area basically filters out all of the nutrients that run thru it, it's the sediments that fill it in over time that causes the death of that area as it is, transforming it into something else, just like muck does in a pond. I'm sure I would have to "refurbish" the area periodically. Dig it out and start over.

I'm putting something together in my head that may be able to do both (capture runoff and filter the pond) by creating a bog area where that runoff enters my fence line and using a waterfall pump to cycle pond water back thru it.

Mike is definitely onto something. Phytoremediation is highly effective and through bio degradation won't turn wetlands into an EPA superfund site unless you are capturing heavy metals or PCB's.

I would think your next biggest water quality issue is the high protein pellets used to feed fish. Hypothetically, if you are feeding fish at a rate of 2.5% of body weight, increasing the rate to 2.8% would increase the organic nitrogen load in your pond sediment by 20%.

Like most pets, people tend to overfeed them and I doubt pet fish are any different.

I can honestly say what I feed in pellets and Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal is miniscule compared to what most are feeding. Every pellet is gone in 5 minutes. I try not to feed too heavily so they larger fish will still play their part as predators on the fry and YOY.

After sleeping on my thoughts of wind aeration (and my lack of it), today I installed a 4/10hp waterfall pump with a PVC nozzle to add some surface agitation during the day. The pump is pulling water from about 2' deep off the dock. My hopes are that I'll only be circulating surface water and not adding any heat to depth.


[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/1byyEa86F92U1B7fA[/img]

After less than a hour, all that scum has been pushed to the far side of the pond.

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ZiJumd77UFmAkQm6[/img]

Mike, I have been reading your soldier fly thread with great interest. Whenever I read your posts, I am impressed by the methods you use to naturally control environmental conditions. SFL is something I am looking into, thanks to you.

"Nutrient Pollution" is mostly impacted by the watershed, feed and total fish. If you feed fish, algae blooms are the price you pay. A percentile of high protein feed ultimately ends up becoming nutrient pollution in the sediment layer, primarily from uneaten food and secondly, fish excrement. Eventually, the bottom becomes anoxic due to TAN buildup.

I think that's what started my trouble, Joey. I didnt give any thought to what last year's feeding program, extrapolated by a ton of leaves last fall, and not running my aeration 24/7 as soon as the temps started cooling off.

All that waste just sat on the bottom and fermented and I'm paying the price for my lack of judgement now. One thing I've figured out tho...in a small pond it doesn't take much to make things swing either way, but when they swing bad...its usually real bad. Thankfully I haven't lost any fish due to my shortsightedness yet.

The BSFL project has been an interesting experiment so far. I'm still learning something every day.

Mike is correct the dissolved copper binds with algae, organics, other living things such as zooplankton, bacteria AND most importantly carbonate ions (alkalinity- hardness) in the water. As the dead organisms die they release the bound copper to eventually go into the sediments. The more that is added over time,,, the more that accumulates in the bottom sediments. Certain types of sediment chemistries can re-dissolve some of the bound copper from the sediments.