I have nothing to do with the sale of pond bacteria! I have nothing to do with the sale of windmill air pumps! I have nothing to do with the sale of swan predators....all mentioned in the original post.

Great read. I have wondered about beneficial bacteria as well. More aerobic bacteria. My water has about 5 foot visibility and more green/blue with a high PH of 8.2 after 100 pounds of alum. Trying to get the PH down to 7.5 don't want to over do it so small moves. Perch are eating well and the minnows are eating well too just their colours are kinda light in colour. Water temp has creep ed up to 70 now 3/4 of an acre pond with 875000 gallon ya she is deep.

Cheers Don.

nm

gonefishinii...is this what you are talking about?

Biotic

E-bay

Gonefishinii are you part of the sales force? Do you have any interest in the company? People will want to know.

I also use beneficial bacteria and have seen a significant difference in my water quality. I also use the stuff from organic pond and it works great. Also just installed a Vertex Aeration System from the same place and love how it works. I'm retired and have no interest in any company.

Why do you need to get the ph down to 7.5? Seems like a heck of a lot of water to get the ph down and i doubt if it's permanent if you do.

If your alkalinity is high you may not even have to worry about a ph crash with alum if that is your concern. Mine is about 350 and it's damn near impossible to get the ph to budge after an alum treatment.

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Well I can tell you this. I also have been using beneficial bacteria going on my 3rd year now. And you all do know me and I have no vested interest in any beneficial bacteria.

I can tell you this. And I think things like this need to be talked about if they help or hurt your pond either way if you are using a prodcut like this please chime in and let us know if it working or not for you. As I believe thats a BIG positive about this site. Finding out pros and cons of different products is a BIG time and money saver for sure.

Keep in mind none of this is a quick fix, and most if not all of these products work better with an air system in place to help the beneficial bacteria along.

Anyway I have been using a product called C-Flo for 2 years now. And in combination with it and my air system my pond has been awesome! Well you guys have seen my fish as of late. I mean there is not a spot on them and they look great and are growing like mad. Not to mention I know I have lost about 3 or 4 inches of muck in the last 2 years. These products claim they can reduce muck by several inches per year but I don't think that's gonna happen. Maybe 2 to 3 inches per year but if you have time it works great. I have to walk out to my feeder in the water and I used to be in an easy 6 or 7 inches of muck and this last spring when I walked out there I could actually feel gravel / rocks under my feet with about 3 inches of muck. This product works is all I am saying. Like the experts will say it is only 1 tool in your toolbox but if you combine it with some of your other tools it can be effective!


Here are a few pics of my fish this year. They all look great and I have to believe some of it has to do with C-Flo cleaning up my pond along with my air setup.

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RC51, that's good to know. People have to realize that it's not a quick fix, a couple feet of muck won't disappear in a year.

I measured my muck prior to any treatment at the advice of the company where I purchased the product. Well over 26" of stinky black mess. I applied the bacteria monthly for two seasons and experienced muck reduction of 6". My water clarity as measured with a Secchi disk went from 6" to 28". Keep in mind this is an old farm pond without much intervention prior to my ownership. My hope is that by installing the Vertex system coupled with the bacteria, my water quality will continue to improve. I do know my fish are happy and growing.

Cecil that's a valid point. I do not know as I only had my air setup for 1 summer before I started adding bacteria. The first year I used Muck Away which worked but IMO doesn't work as good as C-Flo so I can't really tell you that. I do feel that as long as my pond had been sitting (unmanaged) it more than likely needed a bacteria boost if you will. Will I use the product year after year? I suppose not once I get my muck under control I will back off and let my pond and my air system do their work!

RC

RC

Seems like a long time ago Ewest explained how to reproduce Bacteria in a 5 gal bucket with sun and aeration, hope for a refresher post.

On the colour of the fish. I thought the feed quality and temperature of the water had the most to do with weather the fish were darker or lighter in colour.

Our camp is on a lake that is tea stained with a bunch of wood in the water. I have caught bass in the shallows just about black but when we fish the rock shoal off 40 feet of water the bass come up just about tan in colour.

Cheers Don.

Actually I will go out on a limb here and say that fish color comes more from water quailtiy and water clarity. The more clear your water is usually means the fish will have brighter colors. The more cloudy your water is most fish are more light in color with no real dominate coloration. That is what I have seen anyway.

RC

RC nailed the bacterial and aeration for muck reduction on the head. gonefishinii is partial right, as the beneficial bacteria will help to provide water quality improvement, but it takes years to reduce heavy level of muck. Low concentration of beneficial bacterial, with good aeration, will aid the reduction of the muck, providing beneficial feeding resource for the aqua-biota, without creating unforeseen side effects. Once again, it will take years to reduce feet worth of mucks.

Don't rule out beneficial bacteria completely. They have their roles in the biota as well. However, there's not quick fix, with one tool fixes all problem. As RC indicated, the beneficial bacteria require good aeration. I'm an environmental scientists, working very closely with large lakes (from 10 acres to 1000+ acres) in deploying, monitoring, and maintaining water quality, environmental preservation, wildlife, while trying to save the agencies money on needless deployment of senseless technology.

By the way, C-FLo is a great technology implementation to introduce. C-Flo, among others, has been improvised at various lakes where I oversee, as the wastewater treatment plants and run-ons from the local national forests/urbanized areas create massive muck level. When a manufacturer suggested to add a certain product to a certain volume of water, they're already suggesting maximum load limit before adverse effects are detected. Once the contributing muck load exceeds the bacterial remedial processing capacity, you have to either go with the manual removal process of the muck, or wait it out as you try to prevent additional muck load from introducing into the water.

This is why I caution people utilizing bacteria of any sort to control the muck at the bottom. It's a great idea, but be extremely cautious of how much bacteria you're planning to introduce into the system.

Leo thanks for that information very good to know! Even better coming from a guy who has been there done that for quite a while on multiple levels and multiple pond/lake sizes.

Thanks again,

RC

RC, I am not saying Bacteria won't help, because I know it will. I just want to know if HIS bacteria is worth the higher price.

Leo, thanks for the more complete explanation again!! Bacteria is one tool that works in concert with others to manage a BOW.

With a set of young ponds, I will be more proactive early and keep the problem from happening in the first place. Adding beneficial bacteria from time to time will be in the mix as needed.

Hey HF I never took it that way and you are correct we do need to be careful about what vested interest folks may or may not have for sure! I agree 100 percent. Keeping everyone safe here and on track with their ponds is priority 1.

RC

Gotta agree with RC. My experience with fish color is more determined by clarity. In muddy water, they are paler.

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hasta la vista

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I think they just saying your original post seemed sales gimmish in a way.. If your not here promoting a product you have a stake in its no worry.. No need for everyone to get their panties in a bunch

And your point is? (In 25 words or less, please.)

Probably shouldn't put your home address on the internet.

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I don't like the tenor of some of this. Next step is posts deleted which will mean info disappears.

Fish change color for lots of reasons. Search for fish coloration. A lot more than just water color/clarity.

Bacteria can help in some cases but IMO it is limited and expensive.

We don't need or want non Pond Boss advertisers posting about sales here. Talk to Bob first then know there are a lot of very critical eyes on here so bad advice will be challenged and corrected.

ha ha...

To be quite honest about it BB is just like everything else. A tool to use to help with your pond management. Like CJ has questioned me before am I sure that BB is to credit for my fish being so healthy and colorful? No because I am using more than just that one tool to make my pond thrive! Is it helping I think it is, but it's no cure all that's for sure! And it's NOT going to turn mucky waters into beach front shorline either.

Bottom line is like Bill Cody, Eric, and many others have said on this site it is a tool that helps along with other tools combined that makes it all work for the better of your pond no one thing is a fix all, at least none that I know of!

RC

Come on Tex.

Come everyone, let's place all this aside. Let's focus on introducing new possible tools for evaluation and improving the ponds, and our enhance our babies being incubated in those ponds.

I apologize if I've created a stink. I'm going to delete all of my posts. It's not up to me to confront others on this site if I'm suspicious of their motives. And frankly it's a waste of my time.

Does adding bacteria work? I don't know as I'm still waiting on some good peer reviewed data using identical ponds and a control. Just haven't seen it yet. I think it's possible though. I also think it's possible for pond folks to fool themselves into thinking it does -- especially if their mixing their water column at the same time to increase aerobic conditions. Remember it's easy to say a product is the greatest thing since cracked ice when you're selling it.

Cecil, no apology needed, nor deletion of your posts. You have the right to be skeptical about any possibility of motives, and of course, inquiries are needed to prove a point, even though the inquiries are a bit brash at time. However, gonefishinii has a point to provide info about the beneficial bacteria.

Adding bacteria do indeed work. However, there's a limit of how much bacteria can be added within a cubic feet before benefit becomes disaster, based on the "combination of bacteria species". However, the contribution factor of bacteria is only a small fraction of the overall picture. It requires time, and prime conditions for the bacteria to do their magic. But additional tools utilized in tandem with the bacteria to help the muck management. You can't expect the combination of specialized bacteria to do the work all by themselves. It doesn't work that way. It's a harmonious concert of various aqua species thriving together that bring about the great results..of course, us human and our tools are among the concert.

I'm not sure who work in the waste water treatment industries among the Pond Boss members, but the ones I work with here in my fields, if no aquatic habitat is involved, extreme concentration of the bacteria will reduce the biowaste down to essentially nothing but a small pile the good stuff to use in your lawns. When introducing to a sensitive aquatic habitats, you have to become extremely weary about the concentration level.

Hey, what's this green stuff on my pond???

Where are the studies though on facsimilies of recreational ponds complete with a control? Good science doesn't say something works; it proves it.

It's the $$ that we pour into them.

Cecil

Leo is correct, being protective over this site and for the people on it you should not apoligize for. Anyone can blurt out something you may or may not agree with, and questioning it should be fine that's how we learn.

What "we" have to do is consider the source and weather or not at this point and time it is trust worthy... and it's up to us not so knew guys and moderators to question it so other young bucks don't just dive into something because they read some random post.

Your fine dont worry about it,

RC

Cecil, look up Big Bear Lake and Lake Elsinore. Both of these lakes have wastewater treatment plants next to, or practically sitting in the middle of, the lakes. Secondary and tertiary treated water is being discharged into the lake as recharged water, based on the biofiltration levels (the mitigation wetlands) being used. Concentration of the beneficial bacteria varies from point-to-point, dependent of where the discharges are released, and where the initial sensitive aquatic habitat is observed. I'll contact the representatives for analytical documentation that you require. They don't broadcast this publicly, since everything an evolving treatment system, which they cannot favor or sponsor specific brand/manufacturing specs, which then they become liable of legal lawsuits when something happens. Being vague about what being used is the best approach.

Now, aside from the wastewater treatment plants, local National Forests discharge points going into the lakes also contain high level of nutrients, muck of all sort, and sedimentary loads. The lake management agencies (municipal water districts primarily) utilized the bacteria to apply at hotspots to reduce the organic loads, preventing the degradation of water quality. When hell breaks lose, they either control the nightmares using copper sulphate (bluestones of death) then follow up in combination of bacteria and/or alum capping/suppression of the hotspots.

Cecil, here are just a few blurbs about it:

http://www.lake-elsinore.org/index.aspx?page=703

http://www.evmwd.com/depts/admin/public_affairs/conservation/recycled_water.asp

http://www.newtechbio.com/dead-algae-and-duckweed-digester.htm

Scott,

That has got to be the wittiest response i have ever read here!

Leo

Thanks. When I get the time I'll have to read your links.

Leo...Just wondering and I don't know nor do I have any idea....your first link is about e-coli bacteria. That's nothing like the beneficial bacteria added to ponds is it? I'd think it would be just the opposite? More like a Rid-X type product added to a new septic tank? It does get the break down process started....to produce a cleaner secondary effluent. I really have no idea and I'm interested to learn. I was just wondering what part the first link played in your thinking on the subject of beneficial bacteria?

On but slightly off target....I did a little google studying a few years ago....looking up the cleanliness of beaches and the color of water as seen by the human eye. People going to beaches or people searching for beaches to take vacations to....always figure the most desolate beaches with the clear or clear blue water were the cleanest beaches and I found that many of them actually have more e-coli or harmful to human properties, than some of the city beaches with brownish or greenish colored ocean waters....in some but not all cases. Pretty much....if you get a glass of water in 4-5 locations...the water is actually pretty much the same, looking at it in a clear glass. Human eyes, light reflection, the sun, depth of water...many things play a part in how the human eye sees the water.

gonefishinii,

First link describes the bacteria monitoring program that is in place, and quite intensive. The reason why is the water districts, due the water shortages, are utilizing every method under the sun to recover wastewater and polluted storm water, recycle, and reuse the water. In order to do that, bacteria loads, including various nutrient loads monitoring, are required. To offset e-coli and fecal coliform from human waste both from water run-offs and wastewater, beneficial bateria are utilized to digest any possible waste, induced biofiltration methods through wetlands, and intercept then reduce any harmful chemical as by-products of the e-coli and coliform.

Rid-X is indeed a product utilized for septic tanks. However, it's also being introduced in a monitored level in the opened environment in an offf-set aerobic state, rather than an isolated anaerobic state, in a modified form. Septic system goes through a two stage process from an underground tank, to a spreading field/cistern. Both processes are a majority in anaerobic state. It's not as effective until the other aerobic bacteria in the soil take care of the 3rd process in the aerated soil. Thus, the secondary effluent being pushed through the wetlands, to induce biologic treatment to reach a natural state of tertiary treatment, minus tons of chemicals.

You hammer that nail so hard on the "clean beaches" but not knowing it's full of e-coli and coliform, inducing massive vomiting. I live in a state where beach closures are the norm. However, the closure rate has decrease significantly. We do not evaluate the safety of the water quality based clarity/color of the beaches. We based the upon lots and lots of water quality sampling. Millions of dollars per year going into monitoring programs that are so intensive, it's made up nearly 25% of the municipal budgets.

Well, I'm not going to ramble on in my fields and studies. It will just make your head spin and your mind foggy from the "HUH?!". Of course, I will answer any question you many be curious in, especially beneficial bacteria in the world of water quality. Just keep in mind that the bacteria only is 15% to 20% of the total package.

Anybody tried yeast in their pond for muck removal.

Yeast + muck = dead yeast/fish foods.