I think I'll enter this pond in a contest for the worse duckweed infestation - EVER!
Plus, it had a healthy side-order of alligator weed to complete the salad-effect...
Any challengers?

Boy Kelly, I wish I had taken some before photos of my pond. I would have taken you to the finish line. The only thing the internet will not do yet is allow us to smell the air around it. I really would have had you on that one...

Is this a pond you are working on?

I am curious about the chemical(s) choosen and mixture rates.

Thanks

Frank

Man Kelly, what is that nasty stuff yer sprayin'? Sure is a pretty color though...

Man, you've got it going! Cypress trees, alligatorweed, duckweed... that whole swamp thing. Only thing missing is a big gar fish rolling in the wake of your pirogue.

Looks like you need some grass carp and tilapia. Or, as I've heard, 1.5 standard ducks per acre.

I've been complaining about my DW on this forum for the last several weeks. I have it bad but not as bad as Kelly. Actually I think my duck weed is just as thick but I don't have any other weeds. I control the rooted weeds by having dug my pond steep and deep. It drops straight down from shoreline to 4 feet then gradually down to 8 feet. My water is very dark stained from the attached bog and the combination allows no weeds to take root other than right on shore. I've tried the duck route. I've had as many as 10 ducks on my 1/2 acre pond and they didn't make a dent. I don't want to use chemical so I control the duck weed by manual removal with a net. My pond is long and skinny and alligned so that the prevailing winds blow down the length which keeps all duck weed up against one end so it can be just scooped out. The depth and orientation were both recommended by the guy who dug my pond. I think he was smart.

Aaron: I bottled some of this pond's aroma, which was horrid, just in case the competition was close. The decaying bottom-muck was releasing lots of nauseating gas. Being "a guy", I was somewhat envious of its volume and potency.
Frank: The first picture was taking while I was conducting a sub-surface SONAR injection-treatment. Dose was approx 70 ppb. The other two pictures depicted a topical treatment with HABITAT herbicide (targeting alligator weed - plus it will control any contacted duckweed). Rate: 3/4% solution + 1/4% MSO/organosylicone surfactant.
Matt: I was treating a particularly nasty site - but certainly wasn't applying anything "nasty". ???
Bobad: I think even the gar lost their battle to survive in this pond. No fish could live under those conditions (yes, that is water floating my kayak). Grass carp and tilapia would have been no match for this site's problems.
bz: Alligatorweed grows both "rooted" and in a detached, partially-floating form. Being an exotic (non-native) specie, alligatorweed is quite capable of infesting many types of ponds - regardless of their shoreline depths. You're protected (in MN) from this invasive-exotic by your northern climate. We're not so fortunate (in that respect) in the South. It is certainly your prerogative to refrain from herbicide-usage; particularly with your pond's configuration and orientation - and if you welcome the periodic exercise along with the savings. I just hope you aren't avoiding herbicides due to any safety or environmental misperceptions.

Kelly, yah I know that in one respect I'm lucky for the cool climate because it does hamper some invasive species both plant and animal. I commented on the depth because it appeared to me that a large area had rooted emergent vegetation which may be caused by the pond being too shallow. I obviously don't understand the problems you guys face down south. I do use chemicals where I really need them but yes I try to minimize it because of environmental and safety concerns. I didn't mean to pass any judgement on other people using them, that's their call. If I had your situation I'd probably do the same. I can use the excercise so I go ahead and do it by hand. But even though I'm not totally against chemicals I also am somewhat distrustful of anyone who tells me don't worry about it. We can do all the testing we want but we'll never know the total impact a chemical is having on us and the environment. Look at how often things are tested and called safe only to have a problem pop up months or years later. I'm not a tree hugger by any means but I don't want to take any chance of poisoning my own land or pond so I prefer to minimize chemical use.

Is that stuff safe to apply without any safety equiptment on? Like some kind of breathing mask or at least a face sheild?

Kelly, my concern if I were to apply it myself would be the potential for some of the spray mist getting into my eyes, lungs or skin. The spray coming out of the nozzle has got to be pretty concentrated. I just thought that limiting the exposure would be prudent. The label says to avoid inhalation or exposure to eyes or skin. The average homeowner who is unexperienced may not know the best methods to limit their exposure and any accidential exposure to the concentrated spray mix could be hazardous. One wrong swing from a spray wand into the wind and some of that mist will come straight back at you. I used some Cutrine for the first time this year and I basically wore a complete suit and face sheild. But I get the noids when I use that stuff. For me I perfer a wide margin of safety.
I used the cutrine based on one of your posts and it worked great. Thanks

YES, it is "safe" (in my opinion, which is based on 26 years of field experience in the pesticide industry).

However, if you were to pose the same question to a media reporter or an environmental-activist, you'd probably get a much different answer - since their respective livelihoods depend upon inciting controversy and cynicism.

To clarify my initial response: my Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) would be appropriately modified had I been using herbicides that represented elevated user-risks. However, with my understanding of the chemistries being applied, I felt very safe (and comfortable) with my level of PPE.

The blue-colored fluid depicted in the pictures was simply produced by a blue spray-pattern indicator (a temporary dye). The colorant assists with application-accuracy by allowing one to see what has been treated and what was missed. The colorant also serves a precautionary safety-function by letting the applicator know IF and WHERE he was exposed to the mixture. I inadvertently sprayed the bow of my kayak - which was thoroughly washed after the treatment was completed. However, my white shirt and face had no indications of exposure. Even so, I thoroughly wash-up after every treatment as a trained and appropriate precaution - regardless of the product(s) being used.

Bottom line:
Was it "safe"? I certainly feel it was - or I wouldn't have done it.
Was there a "risk"? The herbicides represented a MUCH lower risk than my drive through Houston's traffic to reach the treatment site!

Kelly, what area is that pond located? Looks like you've found the perfect experiment. Will you be placing an aerator and microbes, or is the pond too shallow?
BTW, I would still like you or one of your reps to look at the Challenger 7 Park pond in Webster. It is full of submerged matted weeds, so much so that it cant be fished. Didnt take a sample, as was there with 2 small granddaughters. They plan on a kids fishing tournament in Oct. Dont see how it can be done.

BM,

That's a nice pond in that park. I've thought about taking my grandkids over there also, but haven't yet. Ever catch anything out of it?

Kelly:

I wasn't pokin' atcha or nothing. I'm a firm believer that there's a proper place to use chemical forms of weed control...and that pond's one of them. I was referring to the dye. Never had seen a spray of that color...

I've planted several thousand trees on my place over the last 8 years...thank god for Roundup or I couldn't possible stay ahead of the Brome grass chokin' out my little trees.

ML, it is a beautiful little pond, first time going was when I saw it last month. I asked a park attendant who managed their pond; got a blank stare. it is really unfishaable. If you are ever near there, maybe you can identify the weed and offer them a solution. I sent Kelly a P mail because he was looking for a test pond, but didnt get a response; but looks like he has a good candidaate. The Challenger pond is crystal clear, you can see many small RES, but cant drop a hook, seriously. People I saw fishing were fishing in Clear Creek. Might catch a hard head.

I'll go over there and check it out. Sounds like they need a few grass carp. I wonder who manages that pond?

ML,
Apparently they dont have a manager. Go in the ofice across the street and ask to speak to the park manager. I'm sure they will be happy for any advice, etc. They need fert.( I know) it is way too clear. I was going to help them, but been too busy with my pond in Miss. now cleanup around pond. Several 3 to 4ft diameter oaks down.

rgds
Jim

Jim - the private pond shown in the posted pictures is located just off of Buffalo Bayou, south side of Briar Forest, about 2 miles east of the west beltway. Access is through a non-incorporated neighborhood of multi-MM$ homes. You would never know (or believe) such a place exists inside the beltway. I don't know what the pond-owner's or lake management company's plans are for the future. But, whatever their plans may be, they had to start by cleaning up the grossly overabundant vegetation.

As for NASA's Challenger 7 pond: the scenario you've described spells disaster in my book. In such cases, Aug/Sept/Oct is an extremely risky period for initiating herbicide treatments - if fish are involved in the equation. And, since it is a "public setting", I have no interest in taking the wrap for any fish-kills that are very likely to occur. The public would undoubtedly (and wrongly) blame the herbicide treatment (rather than the predictable DO crash) for causing any fish mortality. My industry already has its hands full trying to correct misperceptions and misinformation. Maybe next spring.......

WeedNoMore: Evidently, I was revising my previous post as you were submitting your comments.

Your exposure concerns are valid, and your practice of actually reading the product's label should be commended (most DIYers fail that responsibility).

With Cutrine Plus (as with most herbicide & algaecides), I would certainly encourage the use of eye-protection. Although diluted products are generally far less hazardous than the undiluted concentrate, it only makes sense to do whatever is appropriate to minimize one's exposure.

I make it a practice to always wear a long-sleeved shirt and pants in order to minimize exposed skin (as much for sun protection as for herbicide protection). Other than that - and greatly depending on the specific product being applied - I usually wear rubber gloves and eye protection. However, the hazards associated with working in the Gulf Coast climate can sometimes exceed the risks that are tied to nominal herbicide-mix exposure (in my opinion). One can fully protect themself with non-essential PPE and end up visiting the hospital due to heat stroke.

Basically: Read,understand & follow the label for any given herbicide or algaecide that will be utilized; but also apply a healthy dose of common sense and good hygene habits. Protect your eyes! They are probably the most vulnerable site for exposure-issues to occur. If a skin-exposure occurs, wash thoroughly with soap and water immediately - not later.

By and large, I don't see herbicides as being the "poisons" that most people perceive - and certainly no more so than coffee, asparin, nicotine, mushrooms, spinach, fluorine (check your toothpaste), or a variety of other products that we willingly ingest on a daily basis. As with any substance that represents "risk", the actual level of hazard is greatly determined by the manner in which it is utilized.

Kelly :

We have an oxbow lake with duckweed about 2 in. thick. So bad that if you row through it the boat path closes in a few seconds.

The reason for my post is about my attempt to get rid of variable leaf pondweed (potamogeton diversifolius) by using habitat. I have a question about what is occuring. I needed the product to get rid of catails and willows which it did very well. I thought it might work and kill pondweed , roots and all. It is not listed on label. I called the rep. and asked , he contacted prof. at LSU (I don't recall his name) and reported that it would work but had to get on leaves with suff. I did so with mid-range % mix. This is where it gets unusual. In 3 days+- the PW had brown spots on leaves , in 2 weeks the plants were brown down to pond bottom (assume dead or close). In 2 more weeks new PW in same area. Don't know if from roots or new plants. Spray again same result. Spray again same result. In this area it looks just like it did when I started except not as thick. In other places in pond sprayed and most gone and did not come back. In other places mixed results varys in % of effectiveness. In all sprayed areas it appears to dye as first noted above. Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions. ewest

ewest: HABITAT is not a new herbicides by any means (over 15 yrs of field-use). However, its life as a registered aquatic plant control product is in its infancy. Accordingly, HABITAT's efficacy research on aquatic plants is relatively limited - and has primarily targeted the exotic or noxious plant species that pose the greatest problems (ie. represent the largest market potential) - and P. diversifolius doesn't fall within that group.

I have worked with HABITAT on several rooted-emergent species and found it to be much more effective than most of the standard alternatives. It also has a very desirable environmental "tox-profile" (meaning that it has very low vertebrate and invertebrate toxicity, including non-plant aquatic organisms - and has a relatively short half-life ~ is non-persistent in the environment).

All this to say that I'm not certain why you're seeing what you've witnessed, since I haven't worked with HABITAT on any of the pondweed species. That might change soon, since today I spoke with a pond owner who lives within a few miles of my house and has a 4+ acre pond with a high infestation of P. diversifolius.

In the mean time, my initial speculation is that you are using a "cheap" surfactant - or at least an inappropriate surfactant for HABITAT (Cide-Kick?). That speculation is based upon the spotting that you've observed after only 3 days (more or less). BTW: Cide-Kick is fine for applications with contact herbicides such as REWARD or AQUATHOL. These two herbicides work primarily through cellular disruption - so CIDE-KICK actually enhances that mode of action.

HABITAT's systemic mode of action is very slow (compared to other types of herbicides). I would not expect to see overly noticeable symptoms until a week or two after the application. Using a surfactant such as Cide-Kick II - or some cheap surfactant that is heavily loaded with isopropyl alcohol (IPA). IPA is often blended into many surfactants to lower the cost of production, since IPA can still be classified as an "active-ingredient". However, its presence may induce tissue damage to contacted leaf surfaces. Rapidly damaged or desiccated leaves - though they may excite the applicator - don't provide the best avenue for systemic herbicide uptake. Damaged leaf tissue may actually interfere with herbicide-transport and function within the plant's vascular system and physiology, respectively. Basically, you may forfeit some of the herbicides efficacy by using the improper surfactant.

In essence, use a quality surfactant with all systemic herbicides. The extra money invested in a good surfactant is more than compensated by the added performance from the much more expensive herbicide.

The HABITAT treatment shown in the posted pictures was applied on 29 Aug. I don't plan to check on its status until next Weds (2 weeks post-treatment). Even then, I only expect to see discolored alligator weed - not brown-out stalks.

I'll try to post again once I've had a chance to run some HABITAT plots on American pondweed. In the mean time, evaluate the surfactant that you're using to see if it might be causing any tissue damage (maybe even try treating some of your plants with only your surfactant in the mix - and no herbicide - to see if any leaf-spotting is observed).

Kelly :

I may not have written my prior post clearly. Habitat is a very good product. It did exactly what the label said. The willows were dead in one week the catails in 2 weeks. The PW sprayed appeared dead in 16 days in a slow progression.The brown spots that started to occur in 3 days gradualy spread over the entire plant until all was brown. The question I had was what came back? Was it new PW that had spread from seed or roots or could the roots of the plants which were sprayed survive if the rest of the plant died. There was a lot of dead PW but more came from somewhere. Thanks for your prior post. I don't think it was an application problem or the suff. as all the PW which was sprayed appeared to die. ewest

Understood. But, I still think the response is quicker than what I'd expect - for the cattails and willows, as well as the APW. Several of my HABITAT treatments have taken 4 to 6 weeks for brownout to occur - yet, the degree of root control is exceptional.

What type (brand) of surfactant are you using with your HABITAT treatments?

That is one of the most beautiful ponds I have ever seen. With all that duckweed Im betting that there were tons of ducks on it each winter, Gadwalls and Wood ducks especially. Its just a shame you sprayed it. How do you get the duckweed that thick? I try my best to grow the best duckweed I can and it just keeps fizzling out. Im guessing my ponds just arent fertile enough.

Duckweed 1, if you think that's beautiful, you should have your water analyzed and, if deficient, lime your pond. After liming, add two or three hundred pounds of 13-13-13 fertilizer per surface acre. Then, if you still want your pond nice and green like in the pretty pictures, introduce the duckweed along with watermeal and salvinia. Your pond should stay green for years to come unless you have a constant inflow of water that washes the fertilized water out. Enjoy!! :rolleyes:

Did you overlook the location of this pond? ~ inside of Houston's Beltway 8.... ie. inner suburbia. The only ducks in this area are some domestic whites - and the residents of the flanking multi-million dollar homes probably wouldn't take kindly to them be snipered by a duck-murderer .

I must say, you're the FIRST poster that I've ever observed praising duckweed - and asking how to encourage its proliferation.

a duck murderer??? does that make you a duckweed murderer???? Duckweed is awesome. Where ever you find the stuff, the ducks are not far behind. its all about habitat. Its a real shame what has happened to west Houston and the whole Katy prairie. All of the native habitat has been ruined by all the houses, very sad to see

I tend to agree with you about those extremely prolific human vermin who keep building their abodes further and further away from the city. Why can't they simply learn to live more vertically, like they do in NYC???? Sounds enticing - Not!

Seriously, habitat loss will continue to be a problem for all wildlife, not just waterfowl. Unless human population expansion becomes regulated (welcome to China), I suspect that habitat loss will get a lot worse in years to come - and wildlife will repeatedly be forced to adapt or otherwise follow the dodo into oblivion.

In the mean time, just because someone chooses to manage their pond in a manner that doesn't suit your personal taste is no reason to chastise their motives or methods. (BTW: I have nothing against ducks - nor their being harvested for that matter.)

The second half of duckweed's name (i.e., "weed") should indicate how it is commonly viewed. A "weed", by standard definition, is simply a plant growing in an undesirable location or manner. Croton texensis (aka "doveweed") is a terrific food-source for dove. But, it isn't likely that you'd want doveweed to cover your front lawn. So it is with duckweed in the pond depicted in the posted pictures.

If you want duckweed to flourish, simply introduce a flock of domestic ducks into your pond and then provide them with ample amounts of feed. They will quickly concentrate plenty of nutrients within the pond. Transient wild ducks will likely drop by to say "howdy" and probably bring with them some hitchhiking duckweed plants. At that point, mother nature will run her course. It happens frequently.

One thing though; make certain you know what you're getting into before you unleash a plant with duckweed's invasive reputation.

I agree totally with Kelly's sentiments. Most people who have fishing ponds are hunters, also, but 99.9 % on this forum frequent this site for discussions of fishing aspects of their pond.
Growing duckweed should be a much less problem than getting rid of it. Just follow the recipe for getting a food chain algae bloom, then add a little more.

Kelly :

Thank you for your last post on duckweed. It is brilliant and is much appreciated . If someone has ever had a serious duckweed problem they understand . We should call uncontrolled duckweed -- fish killer.

Some very wise men who ,at risk of life ,founded this country and gave us a constitution understood that freedom is dependent on the private right to own property. Private ownership means you can make your on decisions regarding your property as long as you don't injure your neighbors property. The constitution provides that if the government wants to infringe upon this right they have to pay compensation. If one wants to buy land and turn it into a duckweed haven then god bless them they have that right and I will support their choice.

Many have made the ultimate sacrifice and as Lincoln stated , given their last full measure ,to protect this right. Likewise I have the right to remove duckweed to protect my fish and property. ewest

Glad you guys were able to take my responses with a grain of salt. I too, have ponds (less than an acre) that I try to manage for fish and want to keep clean. I do have 1 very small pond where I have duckweed that I duck hunt on. Side note, the bass live even though the whole thing gets covered up) I guess I just wanted to give yall a little of a hard time. We do agree with the problem of urban sprawl. I live about an hour west of where your swamp inside the loop is located. Any time I travel down 99 between 10 and 59 I just cringe. A few years ago that was habitat for all types of wild things and now it is just house after house after house. It brings me to tears. A couple years ago I saw a huge covey of quail right behind the Academy on the corner of 99 and 10 and now all that area is concrete. Good luck to all of you. Hope you get your pond free of duckweed. By the way, if you can raise the water level, the duckweed will float right over the dam.

Duckweed1 - Welcome to the Pond Boss forum. Seriously!

As you have just witnessed, PB forum participants all share a common interest - managing aquatic habitats - although our respective opinions may greatly differ from time to time on how to accomplish certain goals and objectives. That exchange of thoughts, in and of itself, is the basis for this forum's allure and educational value.

I think that everyone will agree that personal opinions and perspectives are welcomed on this board, provided that one doesn't cross the line that divides objective suggestion from subjective criticism - which is why political discussions are generally avoided here, in order to keep the board members civilized.

That said, please visit the board regularly and contribute to the wealth of experience, knowledge and information contained herein.

Well I got rid of almost all my duckweed! I have a long thin pond, had a couple of days of good stiff wind that blew it all to one end. I got a rope with some floats on it. Me and my daughter stretched the rope across and drag it to the end. Gathered up all the duck weed and scooped it out with a net. Filled a skid steer bucket about 5 times. Took about 5 hours to get it all. Pond is clear except for a thin rim of duckweed in the weeds around edges. Here in Minnesota it won't grow back this year any more, too cool already. It won't come back until next July. I might be crazy but in 5 hours I got rid of it all with no chemicals, no masses of dead weeds on the bottom, and I got some excercise. I know this can't be done by everyone and won't even work in every pond but I consider myself lucky.

BZ :

Glad you got control of your DW . Manual control/ removal is the best method of dealing with plant problems if it meets your need. With as much as you got out and the time it took think how much volume and time it would require if you had a serious problem like the one Kelly posted about. Most people seriously underestimate the vol./weight of plants to be removed. That is why it is wise to stay ahead of the problem and not let it get out of control. ewest

I have a pond (?)in central Ontario that I have been digging for the past coupla years.Actually the past couple of Septembers. It is fed by spring melt and summer rain with no outlet. In May it is 150'x100' and 15' deep in one area. That area is now 1bout 2'deep and 30'x10'in size.I would like to introduce some kind of floating plant to reduce evaporation and increase the DO.I think that rooted plants are out of the question because of the huge depth changes over the summer but would like to be able to overwinter some cats for our table. By freeze up the water level is back up to 4-5' and native cat minnows have grown from 2" to 6-7" when introduced in May then netted in late August. What could I use besides duckweed? There are no water plants at present but as the pond dries out the swampgrass and native weeds spring up. Why not duckweed???

Pat - floating plants do not contribute to DO since their photosynthetic processes occur above the waterline. For the same reason, their presence will likely exacerbate evaporation instead of retarding it. Plants and trees transpire moisture, somewhat comparable to exhaled moisture in one's breath. For both of these reasons, duckweed is not a desirable plant for your intended purposes - not to mention duckweed's invasive growth habits.